People who are not poor calling themselves poor

[Nikia]

I have lived in a variety of socioeconomic situations and know people from a variety of socioeconomic situations and do find it a bit offensive for people who make above median income, barring unfortunate circumstances (like costly medical problems), to complain about being poor. I think it is somewhat akin to a 5'5'' female weighing average or less complaining that she is fat when she is in the company of people of varying weights, including the severely obese (Please don't turn this discussion into a thread about women's weight, this is just an illustration).
Right now, I am making just under $30,000. My husband is unemployed and we have bill collectors harassing us. We are not poor though. We live in a nice, fairly new duplex. We have 2 paid for cars that are less than 10 years old. We have internet access and multiple computers. We don't worry about being unable to afford food and usually buy what we want at the grocery store with only slight consideration to price on inexpensive items. If we are really sick, we go to the doctor and pay our $20 copay. We have winter coats and decent clothing. Before you say that I am the delusional one and a paycheck away from being evicted if I don't solicit help from family and friends, I would say that you might be right. My husband and I are much better off financially and materially than many people who I know and my parents at a variety of times in my life. When he worked and made as much as I did, we were accumulating money and buying stuff that we wanted and going out to movies and other somewhat inexpensive entertainment.
People who worry about having enough food to eat are poor. People who cannot afford reliable transportation in places where it is required are poor. People who cannot afford winter coats are poor. People who don't go to the doctor unless they believe that they are dying are poor because they cannot afford it.
Me, I don't have to worry about any of that. I am not rich and may think that I deserve more monetary compensation for my work, but I will not pretend that I am suffering severe economic hardships. To say that I am, to me, insults those who are.

[Grey Ranks]

1. It is not that big a deal.

It is relative, if people are more poor than they were before, then they are poor. I don’t think people mean anything by saying they are poor. They don’t realize what it means to be truly poor. All we can hope to do is educate them.

[ultraist]

2. I don't complain about being poor

I feel very fortunate. We have spent ten years builidng up our business and due to our efforts, our white privilege (college edu, knowing how to navigate in our white dominated society,etc), our upper middle class background growing up, we have done very well. We are not in the top 5%, but pretty close to the bottom rung of that.

This does not mean that I don't value equal opportunity for all. I feel very strongly about it and if my husband and I get to the point where our income is in the top 5%, I will not feel any differently.

I think that what people are complaining about is lack of equal access to opportunity. Classism does exist, as does racism, sexism, and homophobia. All who experience an ism, have a common bond.

There is something terribly wrong with our income distribution. People are being denied access due to racism, classism, sexism, and homophobia and that is immoral. We are all created equal.

Equal opportunity is a core value of the Democratic party and we should work to promote it.

[Grey Ranks]

8. I disagree

I would argue that classism does not really exist. We have classes yes, and peoples social economic class effects what they can do and what they have. But, people can more in-between the classes rather freely. And, our society does not have a prejudice based on class. In the extent that you are judged by whatever class you are now.

Poverty is brutal self sustaining cycle. My mother was very poor, as was I. Of all the people we knew, my mother was one of the only ones whoever ascended out of poverty. She was of the only ones willing to try. I will make no pretense of fully understanding why this was the case, but many people are poor because they choose to be.

Our duty is to make sure that those people who are struggling to get out can.

[makhno]

14. Move between classes freely?

How would they, since it'd take at least a good educational foundation to do so. And that's something most poor people in this country have no access to.

And frankly, I do find your assertion that classism in our society doesn't exist completely unrealistic. Look at the laws being passed that negatively impact the working class - limits on lawsuits, cuts to educational funds, revision of bankruptcy provisions and so on. Not to mention the pro-capital stance of various government organizations, such as the National Labor Relations Board. No, class warfare is well and alive today, and capital is scoring some major points.

[Grey Ranks]

21. I didn't mean it was easy!

I meant that when people move between classes, they aren’t held back by their previous class. As they were in the past, where regardless of your current wealth the only thing that matter was who your parent were.. That is my opinion of the situation.

You're right. The Educational foundation is necessary to breaking away from poverty. And that can be especially hard to achieve when all you see growing up is poverty.

I stand by my statement that bias based on class does not exist in mainstream society. However, the laws that you mentioned would seem to indicate that there are many who are trying to implement such a system.

All and all I have dragged us horribly off topic. Sorry Nikia.

[SmokingJacket]

25. Our society definitely DOES have prejudice based on class.

If this is an interesting topic to you, I'd suggest reading Paul Fussell's book "Class," which is somewhat out of date but still quite instructive about the American class system.

[Nikia]

31. There is classism, some of which is legally permitted

While the fair employment laws say that you cannot be discriminated against on the basis of race, religion, sex, and other categories, the truth is that there isn't fair employment. Any employment advice website will tell you that most people get jobs by networking. Many people get hired without going through the competitiion that people applying through the newspaper classified ads go through. They know someone who is able to make a hiring decision or someone who is trusted enough by a person making a hiring decision and they are hired. Who are those someone's? They are people generally in high positions in a company, who one would refer to as upper middle class.
If you grew up poor or even middle class blue collar, your parents and their friends probably aren't in those positions. Even if you went to college, but didn't make close contacts, you still probably don't know anyone in those positions. You have to compete in the classfieds and those growing up with contacts don't. Isn't that classcism?
In places of business, people are treated differently all the time based upon their class appearance. You can try an experiement for yourself sometime by wearing "work clothes" that are dirty and with holes and going to a higher end department store. Go to another store looking your best. You are guarenteed to notice a difference.
This doesn't even go into classcism in education, within community organizations, and on a personal level.

[Bethany Rockafella]

3. I hear what you are saying.

I am in the same situation as you (pretty much). I am not poor but if I ever lose my job and don't find another one quick, then I will more than likely have to foreclose my house and move in with relatives. But the thought of having enough money to buy food doesn't apply to my household. And I feel sorry for those that do. Especially when children are involved.

[The Doctor.]

4. I'll never forget watching an interview with

a very despondent Tammy Faye Baker.

Her caked on makeup was running down her face with her tears as she recounted how horrible everything was turning out after her husband's affair and loss of support.

With black tears streaming down her face she cried, "We're down to our LAST MILLION DOLLARS!"

I doubt very many people felt sorry for the bint.

[meow2u3]

5. It's called poormouthing

I actually heard billionaires whine about how poor they are :nopity: when they ignore the plight of the real poor

All I can say is that my hemorrhoids bleed for them :nopity:

[uppityperson]

6. "Poor" isn't based on income but worry about affording basics

I hate that income=poor or not, and agree that just because someone has to consider what to buy (beyond the basics) or owes money doesnt' mean they are poor. Anyone who makes above the median income should look at their outgo as well as their income. Most everyone spends more than they have, and this does not mean they're poor.

I've been in the poverty category incomewise most my adult life, but have had to worry about housing for only a few yrs (when I was quite poor and in debt as my young child needed to have me around more than a daycare provider). We get by, and have little money for retirement, but also have few debts.

[Warpy]

7. Perhaps you need to consider a few numbers.

The formula for defining poverty assumes a family of four spends a third of its income on food, and relies on a market basket of staple food items.

The problem is that food inflation has not kept pace with inflation in housing, clothing, transportation, and medical care. These days a family of four spends about a sixth of its income on food.

The official level says this family spends about $6000 per year on food, which is about right, and puts the poverty level at $18,000, which is dead wrong.

The real poverty level is therefore $36,000 for a family of four, and that is awfully close to that median wage your "poor" friends are talking about.

$18,000 a year for a family of four isn't poor, it's near destitution.

Poverty has been redefined by the right as destitution, and that is a shame, because so many people have bought into the idea.

Poverty means you may have enough to live on, but you won't have enough to save for retirement, put your kids through college, or take vacations that don't involve camp fires.

[thinkingwoman]

12. it depends on where you live

A family of four can live quite comfortably on 36,000 yr in Indiana, for example, especially in the southern half of the state.

By comfortable I mean able to afford housing (even high rent in Bloomington area), food, utilities, a car (old, but running), clothing, and modest entertainment.

In fact, my husband and I with 2 kids had all of those things on 26,000 yr.

And, as for 18,000 yr...I wish I'd had that much the first year after my first husband walked out. I survived, kept food on the table and roof over our heads on 14,000 for more than a year.

On the east or west coast, however, 36,000 wouldn't go as far as 18,000 in the midwest.

[Carolinian]

9. My boss makes 5X my salary yet he complained constantly about

not being able to afford $1 here and there until I finally had to talk to him about it. What came out in our discussion was the fact he grew up very poor and he realized that he had never let go of that insecurity.

[livinginphotographs]

10. I can definitely see your point there.

My dad grew up in a trailer without indoor plumbing, and although we had a decent growing-up, I was amazed to find out how much he was making later on in life. He never spent money like he had it, but he DEFINITELY had it. I think that has helped me a lot as well; I am fairly comfortable income-wise, but I still buy all my clothes from Target, wear them until they fall apart, I drive a 12-year-old car, and eat VERY cheaply.

Growing up poor makes you more likely to hold on to what you have, as opposed to spending it on mansions and nice cars. I think that's why my dad was like that.

[Wright Patman]

11. My next-door neighbor

growing up was a very successful trial lawyer. He was not at all poor. Yet he remained true to his rural Democratic populist roots. He literally grew up dirt-poor in the country during the Depression.

He called those in this area who voted against their economic interests back then (in the '70s) $10,000 Republicans. The 10K referred to their annual income. It would be equivalent to maybe $30K now.

There are literally tens of millions of people out there who do not consider themselves poor who actually are, relatively speaking. A lot of it has to do with ego. How can one admit one falls well below the median income level without it affecting one's esteem, particularly in a materialistic consumer culture such as ours? So another part of the denial mechanism, IMHO, is to vote Republican.

There is also the perception in the rural areas, which ARE inhabited by poor people whether they admit it to themselves or not, that the Democrats are the party of nonwhite or "nonhetero" minorities and of godless heathen in general.

Everyone wants to consider themselves "middle class." There are the occasional Limbaugh or Trump types who proudly proclaim their filthy richness, but I have heard even people making well into the six figures in income calling themselves "middle class" when clearly they are not.

[thinkingwoman]

13. most people around here are in the 4th class

they're working poor. Not welfare/food stamps/homeless poor and definitely not middle class.

[ultraist]

18. Good points Wright!

I think a lot of it is perception. People want to associate themselves with a "certain" class or race, thus vote Repuke.

Middle class is not an income under 45k. And even for those with an income in the upper middle class, if one does not have solid investments, they could easily be one step away from falling off the cliff.

I also hear a lot of family and friends complain that they are broke all while living a lavish lifestyle. Broke to them means, a slightly lower disposable income while maintaining a lifestyle that includes a 400k or up home, nice cars, etc. In other words, even though their lifestyle is not being threatened, if they feel a crunch to buy another luxury item, they whine.

[American Tragedy]

26. It goes both ways. Many people are ashamed of wealth, too.

Trust me, you don't want to be the rich kid in a public school.

[bluestateguy]

15. I know better than to call myself poor

I do have to watch what I spend, but having a high speed internet connection, digital cable and a new 47 inch TV (that I love) a decent job with flexible hours and health insurance does not make me poor. I'm able to pay all my bills on time, though I am carrying more debt than I should be. I could give up some of those things and move into a bigger apartment, but that's the choice I have made at this time.

People a lot worse off than me will suffer a whole lot more over the next 4 years, which is why I don't whine too much about my personal predicament and the policies of this Administration.

[UdoKier]

16. I make about what you do, and I AM POOR.

We live in San Francisco. Rent for a 2 Bedroom here in the bay area is a MINIMUM of $1200 per month, and that's what we pay.

There are regional factors to consider. 30K is a living wage in some areas. It's a subsistence wage in most of coastal CA, and it's a poverty wage in NYC.

[Nikia]

29. We pay half that

And we could probably find a place a couple hundred dollars cheaper if we were to give up our dog. Housing is a big cost for many people, especially for lower income people in places where there are many higher income people, like big cities. Several hundred dollars less in housing expense does make a big difference.
From what I have seen of some working poor in higher housing areas, they tend to cram extended or multiple families into single family apartments or small houses. Of course most people would prefer not to live that way and many landlords don't allow it.

[sandnsea]

17. Blue collar

We used to have a name for low-income workers. When we lost that, we lost alot of the Democratic Party identity. Not poor, but not the middle class with the lovely homes and brand clothes that politicians like to call middle class. That used to be white collar and where I grew up, everybody knew white collar voted Rep and blue collar voted Dem.

The sad part, really, is that neither of these groups has done as well in the last 20 years as the uber-rich. But they've got everybody fighting amongst themselves while they run away with the bank.

[SoCalDem]

19. Poverty was different before TV

People used to pretty much live clustered within their own peer group, so everyone in the neighborhood was in the same "boat".. Radio shows that told of the lives of "rich people" required the listeners to imagine their lives. Your imagined view of how the rich lived was your own interpretation..

TV changed everything.. Rich people's lives and lifestyles were jammed into your brains and all you had to do is look around and it was immediately apparent that your life some how did not measure up..

The sad thing is that "real people" never lived like the TV families, but those friendly people we invited into our homes every week or every day (with the soaps)told the viewers that their own lives did not measure up..

There are more poor people than most realize...some are just deferring poverty, but it's waiting for them...just around the corner..

Stuff does not make you rich...but it CAN make you poor.

Rich people are the ones who never have to look at their checkbook balance before they buy something.. They are the ones who replace things that are not broken or worn out.. They are the ones whose kids can go to any college they want, without filling out a passel of paperwork for loans. They are the ones who shop for architects when they want a new home...not the classified ads..

[6000eliot]

20. I was dirt poor

when I was a kid. And my rich conservative aunt and uncle used to complain how poor they were. What a couple of douche bags.

[The Flaming Red Head]

22. I guess most of the people I know are poor

by your definition of it. Especially when you consider the lack of healthcare portion.

[The Flaming Red Head]

24. I can't deal with all the (poor) people dying in their 20s, 30s, and 40s

all for lack of healthcare. They're working class till they get ill and then they're close to homeless because they can't work and by the time they get SS or any kind of medical treatment it's hospice, if they even get that before they die.

[Nikia]

28. Healthcare is a big issue

There are many employed people who are just making it. We have a few lower income friends with families who are just making it. They keep careful budgets in order to pay for the basics. They might have a few dollars left over at the end of the month as long as there is no expense that is not on their budget.
They pray that they won't get sick. Taking one of the children to the doctor and getting antibiotics wipes means being behind on bills for a couple months. For themselves, they hope it will pass, and go to work anyway because a full day's work is several days worth of food.
That is one reason that healthcare needs to be nationalized. In my intro to economics class in college, I asked "How can this apply to healthcare, we talk about people preferring so many steaks for so many widgets and how much labor they would exchange for steaks or widgets, but both the rich and the poor would be willing to exchange everything they have for their own lives if economics is truly based upon selfish decisions." "But it does apply to health care too and that is the problem," the professor said.

[KnowerOfLogic]

23. I agree; it seems like the 'middle-class' income threshold keeps

rising (a lot faster than inflation) and now people who are actually rich call themselves 'middle-class' and the middle-class believe that they are poor.

[Lady Sonelle]

27. I generally begin Work...

at around 8:00 or 9:00 AM and work straight through until 12 Midnight or 1:00 AM six days a week and from 1:00 PM to 1:00AM Sondays.

For which I make approximately $15.00 a day.

Whatever.

[Bake]

30. I don't think I've ever been poor. I've been temporarily BROKE.

But I'm NOT now. And NOT is definitely better. I do try to help others who ARE poor, because I've been fortunate.

Bake