Does anyone else find it incongruous that Germany and Japan are

[KlatooBNikto]

now the most admired nations on earth? It seems like yesterday when everyone hated the Germans and the Japanese.

[hector459]

1. But look who they are compared to: The US, UK, FR, SP, RUS

They even look good to me.

I do think that Japan is going to hell in a hand basket and may even beat us there.

[DBoon]

7. You forgot IT

IT and US are in a race to see which country can become the first post-democratic state.

Tight race between Berlusconi and Bush right now. One has the ghost of Mussolini, the other armies of zombie fundamentalists.

[Art_from_Ark]

11. Japan going to hell in a handbasket?

How so?

[bloom]

2. If there were a way

to stop all countries from having a military - many more of them could be admired.

[Langley85]

3. Not sure about that

I definitely don't think Germany is one of the most admired countries on earth, lots of people still think Germans are Nazis.

[Mikimouse]

4. That's largely because some people don't take the time...

to figure out that not all Germans ever were Nazis. Heck, the people in my adopted home town (in Texas) thought that my parents (and by extension, my brother and I) were Nazis too. Didn't know the difference between Germans and Hungarians. Ah well, all of those 'Old Europe' societies are the same.

[NewJeffCT]

5. Umm, there are about 1.3 billion Chinese that still hate Japan

and, I'm guessing a lot of east Asia doesn't like them much, either - the Philippines, Korea, SE Asia.

[Art_from_Ark]

10. I really don't think that 1.3 billion Chinese hate Japan

Lots of Chinese come here to Japan, by legal means or otherwise, to work. They usually get a much better deal here than they would at home. Most of today's Chinese have little recollection of the Sino-Japanese War, but they've seen what their own country has done to them (Cultural Revolution, Tiennamen Square). The current Chinese regime is also turning its back on the peasantry, and that may bode ill for the future.

[tx_dem41]

12. Maybe its an isolated incident, maybe its a sign of a hostile

undercurrent....

"The Chinese still resent Japan's invasion and occupation of parts of their country from 1931 to 1945, when tens of millions died. Heavily restricted from criticising their own government, the Chinese media have had far more freedom to report on Japanese wrongs - real and imagined - which have only added to the hostility directed at the Japanese."



http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/text8-8-2004-57590.asp

[NewJeffCT]

13. Not too long ago...

A Chinese model wore a dress on the runway that had a Japanese flag on it... while she professed innocence, she was nationally villified and I'm pretty sure she is out of the modeling business.

[Art_from_Ark]

15. So basically we have two Chinese "media" reports

One professing the official party line that the Japanese are still the enemy, the other vilifying someone for wearing a Japanese flag dress. At the same time, the state-run media is famous for quashing any less than complimentary accounts of Tiennamen Square, the Cultural Revolution, Tibet, etc.

From my own experiences, such having had a couple of Chinese office mates in college, having worked with Chinese in a Japanese company, and having known Japanese who have traveled to China, among other things, I believe I can say that the figure of 1.3 billion Chinese hating the Japanese is quite an exaggeration.

[tx_dem41]

16. You really didn't read the article I posted, did you?

The riots during the Asia Cup last year were widely reported.

[Art_from_Ark]

21. I am aware of the riots of the Asia Cup

The Chinese were beaten by the Japanese in the final, 3-1. Riots often happen when fanatic fans of the hometown team see their team lose (or even win, in the case of American sports fans).

[tx_dem41]

6. What do you base this statement on?

I haven't seen a poll (maybe I missed it) where Germany and Japan were considered the most admired nations on earth.

[bloom]

8. Maybe it's just Americans who

envy them because they are able to use their resources for things other than the military - so they seem to be doing better.

Plus they are no threat to us.

[tx_dem41]

9. Well, it doesn't hurt that we have subsidized their defense for

60 years. That's the only reason they have been able to have such small militaries. And, for Japan at least, the times are a'changin.

[bloom]

14. yes that was our choice

It was also "our" choice (Not mine...) to spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined and have bases all over the world.

[tx_dem41]

17. In the case of both countries,

it was a wise choice at least in the short term, especially after what the Japanese had done to East Asia.

[bloom]

19. Are you defending our overblown military?

I'm sure it makes a lot of people feel really good.


(I think universal healthcare would make more people feel better - but that's just one of those choices - that our country didn't make).

[tx_dem41]

22. I am surely defending the decision in the short term (as I stated the .

first time). What lead you to believe I am defending an overblown military? I'm confused where you got that from.

[bloom]

27. you seem to be defending it to me

so I figured I'd give you the opportunity to clarify.

[tx_dem41]

28. Please point out where I am defending the current situation? n/t

[bloom]

29. Or you could just say

yes I support it

or

no I don't




Or that you support it with x qualifications or whatever.

[tx_dem41]

30. Its not an ideal situation in the present environment.

The base at Okinawa, strategically, is becoming obsolete. The political situation there is also untenable.

It is time for Japan to play more of a diplomatic and militaristic role in E. Asia again (which they are starting to do...military is growing).

[bloom]

31. Our military as a whole, though

Does it make you feel safer having such a large military?

Do you think the trade-offs are worth it (IOW - the things our country could have instead - less debt or whatever)?

[tx_dem41]

32. I think that the military as it stands today...

is horribly inefficient, and getting more poorly trained as each day goes by.

[bloom]

33. Do you agree with

the amount that is budgeted?

Like you just want the military to use the money they have better and train better - within this budget?



Or would you give them more?

or less?

[tx_dem41]

35. Less. I thought that was implied when I said it was "inefficient".

I just want the cutting of the budget to be done with a degree of intelligence.

[Art_from_Ark]

18. Um, the Constitution that the US imposed on Japan in 1947,

specifically Article 9, mandates that Japan can never have a military that can be used for aggressive purposes.

[tx_dem41]

20. Yes, I know that. What's your point?

I stated that Japan was able to have a small military (Self-Defense Force) because we had subsidized their defense, not because of some innate peacefulness on their part. I don't see how that makes them laudable.

[Art_from_Ark]

23. Japan was able to have a small military because Japan's US-imposed

constitution mandates it, not because of subsidies.

[tx_dem41]

24. Ummm....they go hand-in-hand. Why do you think we subsidize?

[Art_from_Ark]

25. Huh?

The US imposed a constitution on Japan which expresssly forbade a large Japanese military. The US WANTS the bases in Japan, most of which are in Okinawa. Most Okinawans want the bases OUT. Who is subsidizing whom?

[tx_dem41]

26. Again, they went hand-in-hand.

We acted (and still act) as a main part of Japan's military, and in return we have a large base in Okinawa as well as naval and air force facilities near Tokyo.

The only reason the Japanese don't have to spend a large portion of their budget on the military is due to the Constitutional provision. I think we agree on this, and are just arguing semantics.

[Art_from_Ark]

39. There are lots of bases in Okinawa

Marines, Air Force, Army, Navy. Together, these bases occupy 20% of the land in the archipelago of Okinawa. There are a few bases in the Tokyo area (Yokosuka, Zama, Yokota) and a few in other areas (Misawa, Sasebo, Iwakuni, Fuji). These bases are there because the US wants them there, as it has since the occupation days of 1945, and reinforced by the so-called "Anpo Treaty" of 1960.

And now, here's something for your reading pleasure:
http://www.asahi.com/english/opinion/TKY200411060130.html

[hack89]

34. The Japanese subsidize us...

The Japanese pays for all US military construction in Japan. They also pay the wages of the tens of thousands of Japanese nationals that work on the military bases. They have spent billions over the past decades - which is still a bargain in their eyes.

[tx_dem41]

36. I agree, it is a bargain.

Which means, boiled-down, that we are subsidizing them.

[bpilgrim]

37. Japan has the worlds 4th largest budget for military spending

* Figures are for latest year available, usually 2003. Expenditures are used in a few cases where official budgets are significantly lower than actual spending. The figure for the United States is from the annual budget request for Fiscal Year 2005.
* * 2002 Funding.

Source: World Military Spending, Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation, February 2004

more...
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp

just an fyi

peace

[bloom]

38. I expect

they don't figure the amount we give to Israel for their military (or to other countries...)


That could be interesting to know - how much we spend on all of our military expenses - even if they are for other countries.

[NuttyFluffers]

41. thank you. it's a detail people too often forget.

and yet still, japan has so much of a surplus year after year that they are facing another year of deflation... oh the horrors their position is.... once they unload our debt, they'd be sitting pretty, well, prettier than they are now, which is mighty fine from our current american spot in the pig pen.

[neweurope]

40. Don't admire Germany all that much. Things are going down fast over

here and I'm not only speaking of economics. While I definitely wouldn't want to live in the US (nonono not EVER) and MUCH prefer it over here the people that I really admire are the French and the Scandinavian countries.

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