Heterosexual Privilege: What is it? How do straights use it?

[Modem Butterfly]

And what can be done about it?

I'm in a heterosexual relationship. We face some difficulties because we're also an interracial couple, but we've never faced anything like the difficulties that same-sex couples face. I can hold hands with my partner whenever I like and people think it's cute, not sick. I can kiss my partner whenever I like, and very few people even look twice (and those that do are subject to social rejection from their peers). When we go on vacation, we can share a hotel room withoutit being a political issue. When I tell people that we've decided to adopt if and when we decide to have children (a BIG if, BTW) people think it's sweet.

It should come as news to no one that same-sex couples lack these same privileges.

Everywhere I turn, heterosexual love is celebrated, and lately, almost fetishized, as the ideal human relationship. And yet, it is not reality for 10+% of our population, more if you consider those who practice bisexuality, polyamory, polyandry, and those who choose to remain single.

What are your experiences with heterosexual priviliege? What can be done about it? SHOULD somethign be done about it?

http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~maxwell/fest/privilege.html

[thinkingwoman]

1. we can marry, divorce, marry, divorce...

marry and divorce as often as we like and we're never once accused of destroying the sanctity of marriage or heralding the acceptance of beastiality.

[Misunderestimator]

2. Thank you for that post. I can tell you a little about it...

from my experiences pretending/trying to be straight. I went through that before I realized I was gay as well as a short period some years afterward. The experience is quite bizarre... when I am with a man (and perceived as a couple) I am treated with deference or invisibility, but with a woman (also perceived as a couple), treated with scorn or amusement or simply curiosity... but never feeling quite human to outsiders.

It was tempting to try to be straight with a man I met in Germany. I instantly fit in with his friends, with his family, with society, with strangers... it was after having lived for years as an openly gay woman and not fitting in, and it was shocking to me, and compelling. In the end, I realized that I was lying to myself and to him (though I had been honest with him about everything), and I stopped pretending.

It's good to know that there are people like you who can actually see into others' experiences (or even care to try) and understand the complexities. :thumbsup:

[Modem Butterfly]

4. I have a Nobody Knows I'm a Lesbian t-shirt I used to wear

It's worn out and ahem...too small these days, but I used to wear it to remind myself of what it is like to be perceived as gay. I heartily recommend it to all straight folks. It's a real eye-opener.

[Siyahamba]

3. There's nothing wrong with those privileges

But they should be opened up to everyone.

[displacedtexan]

5. You've come a long way, Baby!

It wasn't too long ago (within my lifetime) that you couldn't do those things you do today (with someone of another race) without scorn, ridicule, and/or even legal repercussions.

The arguments against same-sex marriage are the same ones used in the past against inter-racial marriage.

How sad that people who aren't harmed or affected in the least by same-sex or inter-racial marriages scream the loudest against them.

On edit: People are afraid of anything they aren't familiar with. The more they see happy gay couples, the more they'll accept them.

The same was true for Blacks before Sammy Davis Jr. came along.

[jdj]

68. even today in some rural areas you have to be careful.

whatever this gene is I wish it could be eliminated, why some third party would care who strangers date is beyond me.

[foreigncorrespondent]

6. MB...

...I just love you for touching on this rather hot subject!

When I was in a straight relationship for 15 years, like you, my ex and I could hold hands in public and not be tormented for doing so. We could kiss in public and not be tormented for doing so. And most importantly if we went away somewhere we could get a motel/hotel room and not be questioned by our wanting one bed to share in that room.

I can't help but think back to when Sapph and I did the cross country trip in the U.S. back in 2001. Our first stop was at a little town in Nevada. Sapph and I both got out of the car to get the room. The woman at the front desk took Sapph's credit card details, checked us in, then as we went to walk out the door questioned us for wanting a room together! I was flawed to say the least. After that, I learned not to go in to check in with Sapph. I would just sit in the car and wait for her to come back.

When we were on our return trip we stopped off at a little place in Tennessee. Anyway, the only way to describe this place is to simply say Deliverance revisited! The looks we got in this little town was unbelievable! Needless to say, we visited the place we wanted to see in this little town, then got the hell out.

When Sapph and I first met, we had a wonderful three weeks together before I had to return to Australia. When the night came to leave, I was very uncomfortable about kissing her at the airport. To this day I still regret not kissing her, but I couldn't help it. MY fears overtook every part of me. I was worried that someone might bash her on the way home for what they had witnessed. Or, I would be kicked off the plane, and then blacklisted and not able to leave, hence getting into trouble with the (then) INS for overstaying my visa waiver.

I now come to 2002. It is Sapph's first trip to Australia, and I had obtained us a little cabin for us to stay in, for that month. We were never once questioned about sharing a single room cabin together.

When I think about 2003 and the little two state trip Sapph and I took together on her second visit to Australia. I can't help but think about the little house we rented on Philip Island.

This little single room house was on the same property as the owners, so of course we saw them, and they worked it out for themselves that Sapph and I were lovers. Not once were we questioned for sharing that single room house together. And this was in a little town on Philip Island in country Victoria.

Same trip, and we started on our two state visit. On the way to the little country town in New South Wales we planned to visit we had car troubles, which ended up setting us back 5 hours. By the time we got the car back late that afternoon we were both exhausted. So we pulled into a lovely little town in country Victoria called Euroa. We both walked into reception of this motel, and got our room together. Again, not once were we questioned for sharing a room together.

It doesn't matter where we stay in Australia, we are never questioned. Yet, we get questioned in the U.S. for doing exactly what we are doing here. This really does show the mentality of a lot of people in the United States.

Not so much in the big cities, where they are more liberal and accepting, just mostly in the outer areas.

I guess because we come from two separate countries, Sapph and I really do get a unique view of just how different they truly are.

I really do get upset when heterosexuals tell us that there is no such thing as heterosexual privilege, because there really is. They are obviously just too blinded to see it. Or just don't want to admit it.

[Misunderestimator]

7. Your experience in the airport reminds me of ...

when NSMA and I met a short nine months ago... We arranged to meet in San Francisco, one of the reasons being that we knew that even if people stared at us, we wouldn't be in any danger. When we first laid eyes on eachother, after knowing eachother for a while... Yes, people stared, boy... did they stare, as we embraced and kissed eachother as openly as any straight couple would. So, even in San Francisco, we were treated almost as a "tourist attraction" (at least that's how we thought of it)... :)

And you're right about metropolitan areas being quite different than outside areas. It's too bad that we have to seek out "gay-friendly" establishments if we want to travel to the "outer regions" and not be treated as freaks. I did NOT have this experience years ago traveling in Europe... just here.

[Modem Butterfly]

9. Maybe they were just jealous!

;)

[Misunderestimator]

10. Well... there was that certain element...

:)

[foreigncorrespondent]

13. I know exactly how you guys felt!

Sapph lives in SF, so I understand exactly where you are coming from.

I remember when I first got to SF before actually meeting Sapph in person, I went with a group of lesbian friends to Fishermans Wharf. Even there we caught a lot of people just looking at us with disgust in their expressions, and all we were doing was walking down the damn street!

Sitting at the airport with Sapph that night we were both naturally upset and in tears. Anyway, she was expressing her feelings towards me in words. People all around us were just sitting there staring at us. It really was an uncomfortable situation. I mean, it wasn't uncomfortable having Sapph telling me her feelings, it was uncomfortable that these people found it as a source of their amusement.

My guess is, that it was that first experience that has put this fear into me with saying our "laters" at the airport, even to this day.

It really does go to show just how much the fundies have brainwashed people and filled them so much with hatred, doesn't it? It also really does show the strong hold those bigoted bastards truly do have. And the only reason for it is, they use fear. "Believe in this or face the wrath of God!" They are truly frightening people.

[Misunderestimator]

32. Weird, isn't it? I don't think I've EVER felt completely comfortable

anywhere... and now I'm sitting here thinking about it... shit... 42 years old, out 23 of them, and I've never felt "normal" in public with a woman. Criminy! "This is hard work!" :D

[Modem Butterfly]

61. That is so sad

Your post is an excellent example of why we need to be talking about heterosexual privilege.

[Modem Butterfly]

8. I've driven from California to Florida and from Mexico to Canada

There's a whole lot of this country that can be accurately described as Dumbfuckistan. Sometimes, I think the only thing that we all have in common, as Americans, is our ability to be pinheads.

How do you feel about heterosexuals flaunting their lifstyle? The last time my partner and I were in Key West, FL, which is a popular destination for gay and lesbian people, we saw a number of straights being very strident about their sexuality, to the point of dry-humping in public. NOT someting my partner and I would be interested in doing under any circumstances, but it seems particularly disgusting given that so many others are unable to engage in even the mildest PDAs. Disgusting over-the-top behaviors aside, what's your read on straight PDAs in or around majority gay events and destinations?

[foreigncorrespondent]

18. Ya know...

...I don't get off on straight porn, but if people want to express their feelings in public, just so long as they don't begin tearing at each others clothes, I am fine with it. I guess it is because we are so persecuted against, that I do feel for anyone who gets reprimanded for showing a little affection in public.

What I hate most is when heterosexuals couples will flaunt it simply to tease a gay/lesbian couple. That is when I could just slap them over the head and tell them to simply grow the fuck up!

As for straights flaunting it around gay events, I say it is cool, just so long as they don't flaunt it to stir up trouble.

Tell me MB, how do you feel when you kiss your partner in public and people think it is "cute" as apposed to being just "normal?" Because regardless, the mind set in America, still hasn't grown up enough to accept inter-racial relationships out side of the big cities.

When I was first in the U.S. before Sapph and I had even met online, I was visiting Louisiana and was floored seeing a 3 year old use the "n" word so liberally. His grandmother had taught him to use that word, and I tell ya, I just wanted to go slap her stupid for teaching him racism especially considering she herself is a stone butch lesbian and knows exactly what it is like to be discriminated against.

[Modem Butterfly]

27. I feel fortunate. And a little guilty

My skin tone and my facial features mean that I'm often mistaken for white. I am very aware that my experience is different from others in interracial relationships. Unfortunately, I also get a bird's eye view of people's prejudices when they realize I'm not white.

In using the term "cute", I was attempting to differentiate between the approval heterosexual couples get and the disapproval same-sex couples get. Cute vs. sick. I didn't choose normal in part because I dislike loaded language (and what is normal?) plus there are plenty of people who don't think our relationship is normal.

[foreigncorrespondent]

29. I understand that!

plus there are plenty of people who don't think our relationship is normal.

That is why I asked the question. To me though, we are all human beings first and foremost. We all have the same desires, same needs, etc. That is why I won't judge a person simply by looking at them. To do that is robing one self of possibly the best friendship they could ever have in life.

(and what is normal?)

To me normal is simply being a human being and following our most basic desire, which of course is to hitch up with another human being. It doesn't matter what colour that person is, what eye shape they have, what language they speak, what religion they follow or don't follow, what sex they happen to be.

[ArchTeryx]

25. Yuck. Extreme PDAs...

Are not something this straight person has any interest whatsoever in seeing from EITHER side. I've objected in the past to gay couples throwing extreme PDAs in my face and usually get the 'if we were straight, would you still be saying that?'. And my answer is an unmitigated YES! I've done exactly the same thing to straight couples.

On the other hand, I have not a problem with either straight OR gay couples hugging, holding hands, or whatever. It's not something I am as *used* to seeing, being a Midwest boy from Chicago, but it brings a smile to my face regardless.

And I myself have held the hand of male friends in deep distress, exchanged public hugs many times. One of the reasons I was so happy to leave Virginia -- even the liberal bastion of Charlottesville -- was that such gestures would INSTANTLY brand me as a 'faggot' if done in public, and quite possibly put my life at risk. Even in Charlottesville.

Far as I'm concerned this sort of witch-hunting ugliness affects straight as well as gay. It's so easy to get caught in their stupid little dragnets, or even have your 'alleged homosexuality' used as a weapon against you. How do you fight such a charge?

[ultraist]

53. I'm not sure I understand your point

ArchTeryX, is this your point? "affects straight as well as gay".

PDA does not affect gays in the same way it affects heteros. It's not a coequal situation. You didn't mean to imply that, did you?

[ArchTeryx]

63. Seemed clear to me.

My point is that alot of people are squicked even at mild Public Displays of Affection from gay couples, while they'd overlook everything up to dry humping with heterosexual couples. Inherent hypocracy.

I detest extreme public behavior from EITHER gay OR straight couples, but don't mind milder displays. Some gay couples make a POINT of extreme behavior to try and 'squick the mundanes'. And so do some straight couples, based on what Modem Butterfly was saying.

[puddycat]

11. think gays have it bad? try being fat, or emotional, or ugly

At least gays have their own culture and lobby groups. There are many groups in this society who are taking the brunt of the hatred of this conservative society: fat people, ugly people (by our culture's definition), emotional people (stone cold un-emotional behavior seems to be the accepted norm), etc. People labelled as "mentally ill" because of depression, etc. have extreme prejudiced thrown at them from all angles, including the media.

So, while I can sympathize with gays, it seems their troubles are way down the list compared to some. Watch TV--when someone commits a crime they don't say "Susie Jones threw her baby out the car and she was GAY!" they say "Susie Jones threw her baby out the car. She was once seen by a psychiatrist!" !!!! The news media is constantly implying that all crime is caused by mental patients. Another thing: being FAT in this society is tantamount to being a criminal. Fat people (especially women)are considered below-worth, low-character, and all their faults blamed on the fact they eat too much, whereas thin people have all sorts of positive traits ascribed to them. And sweethearts, try being a middle-aged woman who isn't too good looking. You are considered so worthless you aren't supposed to be living. You aren't invited to parties (because you are a "third-wheel", whereas single middle aged men are catered to!), you are made fun of, you are shunted aside and generally thought of as a cast-off. No wonder older single women get lots of cats--cats are much better people than human beings!

So, while I have sympathy for the plight of gays, as they, and other minority groups make progress, the hatred and bias of society comes down even harder on other groups, for that seems to be the nature of human beings in our culture. They need a scapegoat, and people will find one, no matter what. At least gays can fight back, while others have the boot-heel of society squarely in the middle of their backs.

[Modem Butterfly]

12. Getting into a pissing match about victimization is stupid

And ultimately unproductive.

[puddycat]

16. you are right, but it doesn't hurt to get a little perspective n/t

[Misunderestimator]

15. Wow... We're "way down on the list" huh? Show me how many rights

are denied "fat, emotional and ugly" people. Show me how we can fight back in any way that anyone else cannot fight back. Are you saying that "ugly" people (whatever that means) have no recourse if they are denied employment, or lose employment, because of their "ugliness?" Are they denied the right to adopt a child because of their "ugliness?" Are they denied the right to visit their spouse in the hospital because they are too "ugly?" Can they not trust that their pension or social security will go to their spouse or children when they die?

MB is right... a pissing match about levels of bigotry is completely unproductive, and this will be my only post on that matter.

[puddycat]

19. oh, here we go! geez!

this is exactly the type of shit I'm talking about. In my experience gay people have little sympathy of the plight of others. You are totally wrapped up in your own world. Well, sweetie, fat people ARE discriminated against every single day. So are middle-aged women. So are depressed people and those who have suffered horrible trauma. At least YOU have organizations which come to your defense. Most people have nobody.

I'm just saying, get some perspective, dude. Get some perspective.

[Misunderestimator]

21. Bullshit... I have COMPLETE sympathy for ANYONE who is treated

with disrespect or bigotry. Have you never met a FAT GAY PERSON or a MIDDLE-AGED GAY PERSON, or an UGLY GAY PERSON?!? How dare you say to me that I have no sympathy for the plight of others!

And what UTTER BULLSHIT that there are no organizations for overweight people.

Get some perspective yourself, dude. Gay people are part of ALL OF THE GROUPS you mention. And I, dude, am completely compassionate for anyone who is discriminated against.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gollygee]

23. What experience are you talking about?

You said: "In my experience gay people have little sympathy of the plight of others."

What experience is that?

[foreigncorrespondent]

24. BULLSHIT!!!!

In my experience gay people have little sympathy of the plight of others.

And what experience would that be?

You are totally wrapped up in your own world.

Really? How is she wrapped up in her own little world? Or does that stand for the entire LGBTIQ community around the world?

Let me explain something to you "sweetie" in the LGBTIQ community we happen to have overweight people, we happen to have "ugly" (I Use quotation marks for the simple reason the only that makes a person ugly is hatred and bigotry) people, we happen to have mentally and physically challenged people, who are persecuted against not only for being (God forbid) homosexuals, but also for all the other stuff.

So how about you take your own advice and get some perspective "dude!"

[petronius]

35. LGBTIQ?

A bit off topic, but what does the "...IQ" stand for?

[Behind the Aegis]

42. the "IQ"

They stand for "intersexed" and "questioning" (sometimes the Q is for queer).

[dsc]

43. actually ugly people don't have recourse if they are denied a job

for being ugly and fat people don't for being fat either. There is a very limited number of characteristics where the people do have a recourse. Race, gender, religion, color, and handicapped. In a few locales orientation has been added.

[Misunderestimator]

51. You read only what you wanted to read... Being that you're gay...

I would assume that it is just to harrass me that you respond to me in that way. You completely ignore that I and others have said that gay people are among ALL OF THOSE GROUPS, and you ignore the more important fact that we are denied hundreds of rights not denied "ugly" people.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Nobody ever said, "You can't have a marriage license, you're ugly!"

[Misunderestimator]

56. Will you marry me?

Oh yeah... that's right, we can't.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

76. I didn't use your job..I don't know what your job is

I cited the fact that you claim to have expertise in math and science and used a very UNSCIENTIFIC approach to justify your post.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Misunderestimator]

84. I did not misstate any facts... read again... here it is...

and stop calling me a liar...

Please point out exactly where I misstated a "fact:"

"Show me how many rights are denied "fat, emotional and ugly" people. Show me how we can fight back in any way that anyone else cannot fight back. Are you saying that "ugly" people (whatever that means) have no recourse if they are denied employment, or lose employment, because of their "ugliness?" Are they denied the right to adopt a child because of their "ugliness?" Are they denied the right to visit their spouse in the hospital because they are too "ugly?" Can they not trust that their pension or social security will go to their spouse or children when they die?"

Seems to me I was asking questions, not stating facts.

[dsc]

73. Incidently

One reason I posted this, though not the only one, is that I have actually was refused a job for being fat. The fact is if we mistate facts in making our case we don't make friends. But of course it is easier to just assume motives or at least more fun.

[Misunderestimator]

75. Since you seem to be a stickler for words... let me put it this way...

Any of the groups mentioned, overweight, unattractive, disabled, have recourse, some have protected recourse, such as the disabled, others have the same legal recourse that anyone else has. Gay people do NOT as the poster implied have ADDITIONAL recourse in these situations. Certain companies have instituted policies that are quickly being revoked, but there is no federal protection, and you know it. Gay people do not have protected status as a rule. Gay people can also be FAT. The poster I was responding to created a straw man of oppressed groups in order to diminish the oppression of gays.

The impetus for your entering this thread and quibbling over my "facts" is quite obvious. It's just so wonderful to have a fellow gay person come here and insult me pretending that he really believes that the oppression of "ugly" people in our society is tantamount to the oppression of gays.

On edit... try reading the entire post before spewing your hate at me next time:

"Show me how we can fight back in any way that anyone else cannot fight back"... means that they have the same recourse as anyone... gays are not protected.

[foreigncorrespondent]

20. Oh please...

...you are comparing apples to oranges, and it isn't going to work.

I happen to be overweight, so I know damn well what it is like to have someone stare at you, while you sit and eat something (even a salad) in public. And it is nothing compared to the persecution I face as a lesbian in this world. At least my weight doesn't keep my partner from having the right to sponsor me for immigration so we can actually bloody well live together. My being lesbian however, does do that!

[bush_is_wacko]

26. It's really not the same. While I understand your analogy the main

difference is that obese people and "psychologically disturbed" (not sure what the "politically correct" term might be) can get help from. They are not socially limited to participating in ONE ostracized community and watching the members of that community die of a horrid disease. Obese people aren't tossed aside regularly be their family members and while I'm sure they do experience discrimination (I have witnessed what you suggest) I don't think they are regularly "targeted."

Believe me, I am not denying that you have a point, it just isn't quite as pervasive as what homosexuals go through.

I have a niece that is obese and I do feel very sorry for what she has to go through, but she is accepted bay most of the kids in school and certainly would NEVER be tossed aside by her family. We worry about her health, of course, and attempt to help her control her weight but we love her and support her and never let others treat her badly either.

Many heterosexuals would NEVER defend a homosexual in public, even if they disagree with what is going on.

As far as mental illness goes. It is very difficult to make that point since most depressed individuals still function in society. I know there are many people taking anti-depressants but I only know of one person that admits she is taking them. I have never seen her discriminated against. She holds down a very high-paying and high-responsibility job. In fact, she supports a family of 5 very well with her income.

I have a neighbor that is schizophrenic and I agree he experiences "discrimination" of a sort, but it is more because he is threatening than because he has an illness. Most the time he is perfectly harmless. I'm not sure anyone that knows him could ever picture him holding down a job, but he currently is guaranteed disability for life. Homosexuals don't receive disability for life when they contract AIDS ans far as I know and in some cases their spouses can't even get permission to visit them when they are ill. Not to mention the fact that their spouses can't even get health care coverage for them and companies will often find an excuse to get rid of them if they suspect they have the disease or a partner with the disease.

[Modem Butterfly]

28. PC Term for Mentally Ill

"Emotionally interesting"?

:P

[bush_is_wacko]

34. That's a good one. I happen to believe an awful lot of people are not

suffering from "depression" but are suffering from a HUGE dose fo "reality." Our current position in american IS depressing and doctors are guilty of handing out pills rather than allowing a person to experience greif and a sense of loss over what this country has become.

In my book, that makes those people "mentally interesting" since there are many other sheeple that seem to think blood lust and criminal behavior is perfectly acceptable!

[EFerrari]

77. Hmmm. "Sufferers" is not a bad term since that is what happens.

And in order to recieve SSI for the rest of your life, you have to be lucky enough to 1) find a competent doctor to do the paper and 2)be functional enough to outlast the stonewalling. It took my husband six years. And he's lucky he survived those.

If you're not lucky, you go homeless or you go to jail. The biggest mental health services provider in the WORLD is -- tada -- Los Angeles County Jail. And since no one knows that, imagine what their "clinical" standards are.

Then, you have to be lucky enough to get a doctor that actually knows what s/he is doing with your meds and therapy. For bipolar people alone, the AVERAGE TIME for an accurate diagnosis is 8 years. Average.

Ask me, lol, I've been working with these families for years.

[ArchTeryx]

30. And me..?

I'm an aberration, I guess. I never have much cared about the weight of the women I've known, then, I myself tend to look at personality and heart...what's in their eyes...then what the rest of them look like.

I've been burned by one too many soulless, manipulative 'beautiful people' in my life to think otherwise.

[Misunderestimator]

33. Good for you... I relate completely.

[ArchTeryx]

64. Besides...

Women with at least SOME padding to them make very, very nice cuddle partners. I have never seen the attraction to sticks with certain oversized parts, and never will. But it's what the celebrity/media culture glorifies. :P

[TankLV]

66. I can find common ground in much of what you say.

Luckily, I've grown to accept the aging process as I get older. I find it a blessing. Never could go for the "pretty boys".

I find myself still more attracted to my partner as time goes by - and "where did all these 13 year olds working at day jobs come from?" - that's how anyone younger than 29 looks to me!!

I remarked on this a few years back when I was at lunch downtown - "How come all these kids aren't at school?" - any my friend said "They're not getting younger, you're just getting older!"

[Griffy]

36. or human... nt

[Bluebear]

40. How many people are killed for being fat?

And what 'culture' do gays have of their own? Do they all participate in said culture?

Can two 'fat' people get married to each other and not worry about property inheritence?

Can two 'ugly' heterosexuals wed and in so doing not worry that the other will be left in the hospital lobby whilst the fundamentalist parents of the ill partner shut the door to visiting them?

You want to see mentally ill/depressed? Try catching up with a gay person whose partner of 40 years just died and there are no Social Security benefits for him/her and their finances are in ruins. How can they 'fight back'?

When you start comparing agony you're heading down a slippery slope. One hopes that being a Democrat means your fight is my fight, and that I never have to worry about your comparing my pain to yours.

[bush_is_wacko]

14. I'm also a married heterosexual. I've been with my husband for 20 years.

I recently rented the HBO series "Angels in America." I am still digesting exactly what the message behind that series was. It seems to me it was a message of hope that the homosexual community has been here before and they overcame it for a brief period of time. Unfortunately, I don't think it will be that easy THIS TIME AROUND. It seems the country has gone insane with blood lust over Muslims and gays. How do you diffuse PURE hatred?

Three of my heterosexual family members died of AIDS in the eighties from tainted blood. As a result I have attended many AIDS fund raising events. It never ceases to amaze me how UNINFORMED heterosexuals are about homosexuals. These men and women are NO DIFFERENT than the heterosexual community as far as LOVE stories and RELATIONSHIPS go. In fact MANY of them are DEVOTED to each other, through thick and thin, and the most debilitating and heart wrenching illness ever to hit this planet. I have never met one person in that community that doesn't sympathize with my families plight and understand how horrid it was to watch three beloved family members die of such a horrid disease! This, despite the fact that they have watched 100's of friends and lovers/spouses (whether America wants to admit it or not many of them were more spouse than some of the married heterosexual couples I've met) die of the same disease. When I talk to these people it amazes me they can be so sympathetic!

I wish I had a clue how to get this message across to people. I find it truly incomprehensible that this country discriminates OPENLY against this community!

[Nikia]

17. On a related note, assuming friends are sexual

Sometimes it is difficult to have close friends and it not be perceived as sexual. Opposite sex friends are often assumed to be lovers by aquaintances and coworkers based on being emotionally close or standing closer than the average American would stand next to someone of opposite sex. If the said friends go anywhere just the two of them, they may be perceived to be a "couple".
Same sex friends usually can be a little closer, but if friends are too close and show physical affection to the level that it is shown amongst friends in some cultures, the friends may be perceived to be gay. This is especially true if they are close as best friends and single.
Is this because Americans are obsessed with sex or are emotionally distant? Perhaps I went off topic a bit, but Americans do seem obsessed with people's sex lives and think close=sex.

[foreigncorrespondent]

31. That is very true!

My ex (guy) was going around telling people that I had slept with my best (female) friend. This of course wasn't true. We just happened to be very close back then. Unfortunately though we lost our way, and are now just trying to build the freindship back up, that we once had.

[Modem Butterfly]

39. One day in San Francisco

I'll never forget one afternoon in San Francisco. I was killing time after a job interview and was riding the cable cars around town. At Ghiradeli Square, there were two women holding hands. A third woman began telling them how they were sick, disgusting, perverts. The rest of us started to berate the third woman, who eventually slunk away. Afterwards, one of the ladies explained, "My sister is slow and I didn't want to get seperated from her,"

[Misunderestimator]

41. Wow... just wow.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. How sad.

Something similar happened to me. I do happen to be gay and I make no bones about. One day, in front of my office (I was working at a university), and saying good-bye to a tall blonde man (I am short and dark-headed), I hugged him and kissed him on the cheek. Well, some asshole walks by and says "that is sick!" I stopped him and asked him what is so sick about saying good-bye to one's brother!? Yup! The tall blonde was my brother, but because we look nothing alike, people assumed he was a faggot too! I had to hold my brother back!! He was pissed that someone said something to me. Heehee! He is my younger brother but much bigger and military!

[EFerrari]

80. This sh#t happens all the time to families.

I got routinely brushed off as a "self appointed" advocate for my mentally ill husband. At first, I was cowed; then made it a habit to say, "Who else has the duty to advocate for him if not his wife? And how dare you disrespect my FAMILY."

Sheesh

[Bouncy Ball]

46. Tears instantly sprang to my eyes when I read that.

And that's hard to do to me. My God.

[Vladimir]

37. The holding hands thing is so true

I can't remember the last time I saw a gay couple holding hands or kissing in public. In fact, I may well have never seen the latter. Even if you go to student parties here (in the good old liberated UK), you very rarely see any homosexual snoggage going on, while the rest of the 'normal' room is busy getting off to their hearts content. I agree MB, we certainly are priviledged.

[Modem Butterfly]

38. In the US, it's more common in the cities

But "common" is a relative term!

[Bouncy Ball]

44. My experiences with heterosexual privilege are exactly your experiences.

In fact, my husband and I were standing in line to buy popcorn at the movie theater behind a gay couple. They were very obviously in love (or at least highly smitten with each other!) and kept giving each other goo-goo eyes, but didn't dare even touch hands.

It made me feel bad. Suddenly I wish they could. I mean, there was me and my husband, happily with our arms around each other, no one batting an eye.

I even took my arm from around my husband. Funny, we're so on the same wavelength, he told me later he knew exactly why I did that.

It just makes me feel incredibly sad. Love is love. I wouldn't have a problem ONE with homosexual couples being able to be affectionate with each other in public the way hetero couples are (I draw the line at extreme displays for ANY combination of genders, LOL!).

:-(

[bush_is_wacko]

49. Me too about the EXTREME displays! I have thought many a heterosexual

couple had gone WAY OVER THE LINE with waging tongues and suggestive rubbing!

On another and maybe more encouraging note. My daughter's high school has apparently had a gay and lesbian club for many years now. They have a float in the Homecoming day parade and are accepted fairly well within the student population. I even saw a couple of "obviously smitten" girls at homecoming with their arms around each other, one had her hand in the others back pocket actually.

NONE of the kids around them seemed offended or obnoxious in the least. They were conversing in a normal way with other student's. I have to admit I did see a look of "shock" on one parents face, but I wouldn't call it revulsion.

Understand, I live in what Rove calls the "exurbs." There are many gung-ho bush supporters, but there are also a great deal of Liberals in the area. I have ALWAYS been skeptical of Roves interpretation of what goes on here. Lots of us move out to these areas so we can enjoy a breath of fresh air and quiet solitude with nature. We are affectionately called "granola heads" and I think we are represented in fairly large numbers in the country/suburbs/exurbs.

[Bouncy Ball]

52. I see teenagers being WAY less bigoted nowdays

which is definitely a good thing. Let's just hope it doesn't wear off.

One teenage girl on my stree was checking the mail, all pissed off saying on her cell phone, "Claudia's going around saying she's LESBIAN, like she'd ever be THAT COOL. She's just a WANNA-BE."

I nearly fell over.

[bush_is_wacko]

69. I actually heard something similar from my niece once!

Her father finds it hard to talk with her. He doesn't get to see her much and, well, teenage girls are not that easy for a man to understand or converse with, period! Anyway, since her mom wasn't there I thought maybe I should make sure she understood that THAT is not a choice and, while I agree there may be some kids willing to EXPERIMENT or claim that they want to experiment. the ultimate decision to say something like that out loud is a very difficult and painful one for a LOT of people and I would hope she realized that she needed to be a little sympathetic to her friend. I told her about a girl I grew up with and how she was teased unmercifully and called all those hurtful names we all heard as kids and I told her that I nearly lost her friendship when I didn't stick up for her because I was a coward at age 15! I can't imagine what life would have been like if I hadn't had that friend around all these years. She is like a second mom to my kids and her life partner has also been part of our lives for at least 20 years now.

It was funny, my niece sort of blanked out for a second and then she looked at me and told me you, know, you are right, I shouldn't have said that. I hope it doesn't get back to her that I said that.

I told her she should make sure that her friend realized she had spoken without thinking and that she would always be her friend no matter what her sexual preferences were.

Luckily, my daughter was also there to hear that lecture because I really don't think I've ever spoken to her about that before.

There is a change in this generation, but I think it is a tenuous change and I think we owe it to them to help them understand how bad it can be and that we never want to go back to that time.

[Placebo]

47. I'm sick of all these "Privilege" threads...

they're doing far more harm than good, only getting us all into little bitch-fests instead of adding anything to the forums.

[SnowBack]

48. Wow! A perfect example of het privilege!

How DARE people discuss problems we face as LGBT people? We obviously aren't "adding anything to the forums"...

There are very few places I feel safe. Even in the Castro - the gay neighbourhood in San Francisco..

The few times I've ever held hands with my partner of 17 years in public, I've been subject to stares, comments and people screaming at me...

And if you think that discussing that is "doing far more harm than good", please don't bother reading the thread. YOU sure aren't adding anything.

[Placebo]

50. I'm gay.

And I still don't think these threads are adding anything to the forums.

Not so "perfect", eh? :eyes:

[ultraist]

55. Your gay and resent awareness raising and promote SILENCING? How odd

Whatever dude. Your posts on the white privilege related threads were pretty revealing. :eyes:

A couple of months ago we were at the movies and a lesbian couple was holding hands. I was glad that for the FIRST time, my ten year old saw what should be common.

Sadly, this couple was met with a LOT of dirty looks. It was a sad commentary on our society.

As far as extreme PDAs, I'm a bit prudish that way as I'm not really interested in watching live soft porn and rather my kids not be exposed to it. My fundie sister in law and bro in law are really inappropriate this way. She will jump on my bro in laws lap and get VERY sexual in the middle of a family event. I've had to say, hey, why don't you take it to a private room, there are young children in the room on more than one occasion. (But my husband and I are immoral because we support pro choice!) LMAO!

[Placebo]

58. Your comment rests on the basis that the effect of these threads...

is to "raise awareness and dissuade silence", which is a conclusion you drew, not me. I don't see these threads that way, so don't put words in my mouth.

[Modem Butterfly]

62. Raising awareness and dissuading silence

That is exactly the reason I started this thread and yesterday's white privilege thread. We can't begin to fix the problem until we can discuss it. Change is hard and painful, but so is the status quo.

[Lars39]

57. Threads like these add a lot to the forums.

Many people are totally oblivious to the gay people around them;
they just aren't aware of the problems that gay people face.
I'm still learning of the difficulties, still learning about human nature.
As a hetero, I know that I've said and done things out of ignorance,
not out of any maliciousness.
That doesn't lessen the shame I feel about the hurt I've unintentionally caused, though.
Threads like these help replace the ignorance with knowledge and understanding.

[ultraist]

59. Well said Lars39!

How can having open dialog be divisive? Turn a blind eye sounds Repuke like to me. The facts are the facts and discussing them raises awareness. Raising awareness fosters compassion and support for pro gay issues. If people REALLY stopped to think about a day in the life of a gay person, they would be more apt to take the time to support gay rights.

[SnowBack]

60. Very sad...

Have you ever tried to be yourself in public with another guy? Other than in a Gay bar?

[foreigncorrespondent]

65. Oh really?

only getting us all into little bitch-fests instead of adding anything to the forums.

I guess you must skip over posts, because form where I am sitting, I see plenty of people sharing stories about heterosexual privilege. I also see many queers giving personal experience. To me, that is sharing something with the forum! Hence, adding something to DU.

[gollygee]

67. My husband and I met while he was visiting the US

We fell in love and wanted to be together so we got married to get him through immigration and get him a green card. If we'd been a same-sex couple, we'd be SOL.

Sad sad sad.

[UdoKier]

70. AGAIN the misuse of the word "privilege"

Gays are widely discriminated against and are at a distinct disadvantage. Heteros are treated as human beings and have full rights under the law. That is not privilege, that is as it should be for ALL people, gay or straight.


An (unfair) advantage is not the same as a privilege!

[Misunderestimator]

81. An unfair special advantage... is a... privilege.

[UdoKier]

82. Key word is "special".

To have one's marriage recognized is not a "special" right, it's a right that is supposed to be available to all.

It's not an extra or a bonus. It is simply what is to be expected. Gays are not getting what they should be able to take for granted - equal status under the law.

Equal status under the law is NOT a "special" privilege, it is a RIGHT that is being selectively denied to specific groups.

I'm sorry for harping on this, because my gripe is almost entirely with the syntax of these posts and not with the spirit in which they are written.

I really don't understand why the intentional misuse of the word "privilege" when "unfairly advantaged" or "favored class" would work just as well.

[Misunderestimator]

83. Since accompanying that "marriage" are "special" rights... only

afforded straight people who marry, they are therefore, in my book, considered privileges. The fact that all straight people have access to these rights, and we do not, makes it a special advantage to those who have them. Of course it SHOULDN'T be that way... which is the whole problem.

You seem to have a pretty narrow definition of privilege... to me a privilege is a "special advantage."

[CTLawGuy]

79. heterosexual so-called privilege

is not a problem. The problem is that gay relationships do not have the same rights.

Do not get into the habit of shifting the scope of social problems to project them onto a perceived "oppressor class".

Society owes all people the right to equal and dignified treatment, no more, no less.

[Hell in a Handbasket]

85. aren't there something like several dozen rights that come along with

marriage?

...not to mention the lack of societal stigma