What is a Christian?

[napi21]

I'v been listening to Peter Werbe tonight, and he has a guest on now who posed that question. Her answer was rather vague, and I decided to take a look on the web to see what I found.

A disciple of Jesus Christ. Many persons have made the claim of being Christ's disciples, but Jesus himself said he would disown those calling him Lord if they did not do the will of his father. (Mat 7:21-23)

Now, I'm not trying to push religion here. I wonder if the Dems shouldn't pose this question to the American people, and use the response listed above. Does this sound like the current Pubs today?

I sure don't want American politics to become a religious war, but we've got to have a response to the Pubs who claim to be religious people, but disregard the basic guide they are supposed to follow...Love thy neighbor as thyself, and what you do to the lease of thy bretherin, you do to me.

I think we must respond to the radical RW evangelists who seem to be controling the Pub Party, and demonstrate to the rest of the people why they are wrong.

[merwin]

1. The radical RW evangelists are as far away from Christians as you can get!

[thecai]

8. You'll Know A True Christian By Their Fruits

The Fruit of The Holy Spirit is Love, Peace, Joy, Goodness, Kindness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Patience, and Self-Control.
Christians ARE human and make mistakes, no one will be perfect until they reach Heaven, but True Christians Love their neighbors as themselves.

[Grey Ranks]

37. If that is what a Christian is...

then may we all be Christian.

[scarlett1]

25. Those ( the RW) would be ChINOs

Christians In Name Only.

And They aren't very Christ like.
Things like Caring for the poor, the sick, the least of my Brothers.

[SharonAnn]

31. LOL! Chinos!

[Maple]

2. One who lives by

the actual words of Jesus. No one else. Not Paul, not the Old Testament, not some TV evangelist...just what Jesus said.

Ever met one? I haven't.

[Tux]

12. I have

I met a total of 6 people in my 30 years in this life.

[youthere]

27. I know one...

In thirtysomeodd years....one. How many that claim they are Christians? Thousands. Tens of thousands. But I know one true Christian. She is amazing and everything I wish and aspire to be. On my best day, I'm not 1/2 as good as she is on her worst.

[Djinn]

32. does anyone know what the exact words of jesus were?

we only have "his words" translated through other people so surely that means there can be no Christians

[Az]

34. Ever heard of the Jesus Seminar

According to them, only about 9% of the words attributed to Jesus could be considered realibly his.

[Djinn]

40. I hadn't

but will look it up. From my limited knowledge most of the gospels were written up to a couple of hundred years after his supopsed death - so they were written by people who didn't even meet the guy and we all take it as God's/Jesus' word. Weird.

[Az]

46. The Jesus Seminar

Is a group of Bible scholars and clergy that gathered together to study the bible. Their purpose was to determine from the text of the bible using bibliographic techniques how much of it could be fairly attributed to Jesus.

Their studies do not create a historical claim for Jesus. Rather they sought to find within the context of the bible itself what they could determine was said by Jesus and what was created by the writers of the Gospels.

By comparing contradictions and other factors they eliminated some texts and verified others. There results have been published in a number of books. Go to amazon and search for Jesus Seminar for a list of some of them.

[imenja]

3. Liberal Christians are trying to impress this kind of message

That Christ spent most of his life talking about caring for the poor and never once mentioned homosexuality. See the Sojourners website: http://sojo.net/

[kodi]

4. One who believes in the Resurrection of Jesus.

Without holding to that belief, one can hardly consider him/herself a Christian.

Refer to the Nicene Creed for further details.

[DieboldMustDie]

39. The Nicene Creed wasn't written until A.D. 325.

See Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman for more on the variety of Christian belief in the first 3 centuries.

[kodi]

43. "On the third day He rose again" is a part of the Nicene Creed's dogma..

"On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;"

[napi21]

5. You seem to be missing my point. We need to show the Pubs

what they are being told to do ISN'T Christian at all!

I can't imagine any of them arguing with the description I listed in my original post.

[kodi]

41. not at all. your definition isn't representative of american christianity

I posted the working definition of what constitutes the basic tenet of faith for Christians. You quoted some Scripture and parables from their holy book that you say is what they must do.

American Christians of the ilk you are discussing are not merely Bible reading folk they are also Utopians who believe in a nearly mystical amalgum of Protestant Calvinism and nation worship.

For these people, America is the chosen nation, the light of the world, the city on the hill. Our system of government enjoys lasting legitimacy since our Founding Fathers were inspired in a Biblical sense.

Capitalism is the chosen system of America, God is in favor of freedom, property ownership, competition, diligence, work, and acquisition, and this very special place called America must be protected at all costs against any potential enemy. Defense spending takes on a life of its own with any weapons system, which offers us even the slightest advantage, deemed as necessary and worth the expense.

The military itself takes on a mystical aura and receives unquestioned support.

The real problem with this belief system is that it is plagued by an extreme confusion of values since it has mixed up Christian (and Old Testament Jewish) values with Consumerist/Capitalist values to the extent that it can no longer recognize a difference. The problem here is that these two value systems are in reality contradictory and mutually exclusive which means that the former gets talked about continuously in effect providing the pretty wrapping for the latter which actually guides their actions. This confusion has been so long in coming about and is reinforced by their attitudes in so many ways that they are totally blind to it.

In short, the Market has become their God and they need no other. Christianity provides the traditional backdrop or prop, but is discounted in any real way, in reality more a type of marketing or a form of window dressing.

Since this belief system rests very much on faith alone, any objective facts, which contradict it, are rejected in a very morally uncompromising way. Unflattering historical episodes are explained away as brief lapses, characterized as the necessary means to a noble goal or are ignored altogether since they fail to "fit the pattern" or are the result of "liberal/leftist slant."

You can't fight these people with the Bible; they have an ideological/quasi-religious worldview expressed by the symbolism in their brand of Christianity, and you have yours.

[Old Mouse]

6. believe it or not

there are fundamentalists trying to take the mantle of religious right away from the republicans.

[Festivito]

7. Christian should mean Christ-like. The loud have stolen Christian.

The advent of the TV evangelist has lead to a homogenous concept of Christianity that I would characterize as broad and shallow. There is a facade of rules that become hyperbolized as absolute, as I see it, this process attempts to hide a lack of depth by standing more and more resolutely upon dogma such as absolutism and hating relativism. This also leads to the black and white thinking that invades our society still.

Peter's excellent guests this evening have a deep understanding that brings meaning to their lives, connects with their understanding, and resonates with their souls. They feel deeply and speak from their hearts. They were trying to translate for an audience some of whom could not fathom their depth. And, the old religious cunundrum of those who know do not tell, those who tell do not know applies to good Christians as well.

Good Christians being different from the bland Christians who follow the easy to judge others rather than myself misleaders. Even the Bible warns us of them.

These sad people quote Paul more than Jesus, ignoring Paul's notion of letting other Christ based religions be, letting them fail on their own, should that happen.

I like to think of myself as Christ-like, even though I'm not even close to such and achievement.

[TahitiNut]

9. The Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed sum it up

The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again; he ascended into heaven, he is seated at the right hand of the Father, and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. AMEN.



Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[Djinn]

33. so if you do not

beleive that Jesus was the literal son of god you can't be a christian? that cuts out probably the majority of liberal christians

[DieboldMustDie]

42. No they don't!

These creeds weren't written until 3 centuries after the Crucifixion.

[Lindacooks]

45. Something interesting about the Nicene Creed and

the Apostle's Creed - notice how they only mention Jesus being born and Jesus dying and being resurrected? What about the rest of his life? What about his words?

Nicene Christians are only interested in the birth (Christmas) and the death/resurrection (Easter). I have never heard a fundie speak of Jesus' words - helping the poor, clothing the cold, feeding the hungry, NO mention of homosexuality, condemning those who judge and preach and pray loudly in the street, and turning the other cheek. It's like, for them, the actual figure of Jesus just isn't important.

[Book Lover]

10. Simple answer that does not address your real question

All that is required to be accurately called a Christan is to believe that Jesus Christ was divine. Nothing else. I don't care how good or bad your deeds are, or how left or right-wing your political ideology is - if you believe that Jesus was divine, you are a Christian, good, bad or indifferent. Yes, that lumps a wildly divergent groups of folks together, and naturally lots want to disengage from the massive group by slicing the group from inside by saying this or that one isn't a real Christian, but that isn't the way it works.

[Tux]

13. Not really

I used to attend a Church of Christ that considered Jesus to be a mortal man but with a soul that is divine. Some Unitarian Univeralist think that Jesus was a mortal man that figured out a great deal and tried to improve society.

[Book Lover]

18. *Throws up hands in dispair*

That's it. I give up. Believe, don't believe, whatever. I am sick of having to care.

[Az]

19. Its a bit more complicated than that

Keep in mind that each faction of Christianity believes that they have the correct interpretation of his teachings in heart. Of course they deny that any faction fundamentally different from their view has been swayed by something other than Christian teachings. Of course from an outsiders view all this seems meaningless. Both sides claim to follow Jesus. Both sides claim the other side gets it wrong and has become hopelessly corrupt.

[dummy-du1]

11. I just looked it up

CHRISTIAN, n.
One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

(The Devil's Dictionary by Ambrose Bierce)

[Az]

14. Christian is a label

It is one a person applies to themself. There is only one person that is able to honestly judge whether a person is a Christian or not and he isn't talking, if he even exists.

This notion of trying to figure out who is or is not a Christian is ineffective. To one Christian another selfproclaimed Christian may not seem to be a Christian. But to all others who are not Christian we are relatively nonplussed by the disctinction.

If you as good Christians want to distinguish yourself from what you believe are bad Christians then make it obvious to us. Speak out. Be heard. Be seen. This is how the so called bad Christians have taken over your name. They have been vocal, oganized, and active. You will have to be the same to overcome them.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

15. followers of the New Testament (Covenant) God not the Old Testament .....

Matthew 5:3-13 is The New Testament(New Convent) index of Christian behavior



NOT the Old Testament (Old Covenant engraved in stone) quoting fundies who love to quote the Old Testament which ... "is the Mosaic law that kills and brings death"...2 Corinthians 3

Matthew 5:3-13

5:3 -
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

5:4 -
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5:5 -
"Blessed the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

5:6 -
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

5:7 -
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

5:8 -
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

5:9 -
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

5:10 -
"Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

5:11 -
"Blessed are you when {people} insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

5:12 -
"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

5:13 -
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty {again?} It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men. ...(this verse pertains to the Old Testament Bible thumping Fundies!imho)

2 Corinthian 3:4-18

4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

[Igel]

28. Ah, such a dualist. n/t

[Lisabtrucking]

16. There is a problem with explaining anything of religion to a Christian.

They are not Christian's, they talk like they are, but they are not true believer's. These people live in more sin then I do. Look at Jessica Simpson. Her father is involved with the church, and he exploits his girls like whore's. There are to many of these walking pin brains. They have destroyed the Christian anything with me.

[ICantBelieve]

23. I understand how you feel, but...

Talk like that isn't going to win us the votes of the middle. And we need those votes. I believe we don't have to change our stance on issues one tiny bit. But we do have to show how our stance is more Christ-like than the religious right's stance. And no one will listen if we attack "Christians" in general.

[Modem Butterfly]

17. A follower of Christ

I'm not about to tell anyone that they're not a Xian.

[Walt Starr]

20. It's really pretty simple

Chris·tian n.
1) One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2) One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

[kwassa]

21. From religious tolerance. org

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn1.htm

Range of definitions of "Christian:"
There are also many distinct definitions of the term "Christian" (pronounced 'kristee`ân). Different people have defined a "Christian" as a person who has:

Heard the Gospel in a certain way, and accepted its message, or
1)Become "saved" -- i.e. they have trusted Jesus as Lord and Savior), or
2) Been baptized as an infant, or
3) Gone to church regularly, or
4) Recited and agreed with a specific church creed or creeds, or
5) Simply tried to understand and follow Jesus' teachings, or
6) Led a decent life.

Following these different definitions, the percentage of North American adults who are Christians currently ranges from less than 1% to about 75%.

Within a given denomination or wing of Christianity, there is usually a consensus about who is a Christian, and who is not. However, there is often little agreement among members of different faith groups on a common definition of "Christianity

[ICantBelieve]

22. I thought Wes Clark put it well

"Every church I've ever belonged to believes in one common thing: Those who have more should help those who have less."

Jesus said, "Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me."

Define Christian any way you want it. It doesn't matter. Let them call themselves Christians if they want. They won't be followers of Christ unless they are Christ-like. And I don't think Jesus believed in tax cuts for the rich or invading countries "preemptively to spread freedom."

Frankly, though, Jesus also said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I don't think we'll win by attacking the religious right. Instead, we must positively demonstrate to the religious middle that our way is more Christ-like.

Jesus was a liberal, you know. Jesus loves EVERYONE, even SpongeBob SquarePants.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

26. I love Man Books

[independentchristian]

29. The term Christian has been co-opted by people who are actually

antichristian.

Bush, Falwell, Santorum, Lieberman, McCain and others are "moonies."

You can't be a follower of Moon and be a "Christian" although Lieberman isn't a "Christian", when Moon claims that he is the messiah who is here to fix what Jesus screwed up.

Moon says that the cross is a symbol of Jesus's failure.

The Unification church is leading a movement around the country that is convincing churches, mainly black churches, to actually tear down the crosses off of their churches and throw them in the garabage, and Bush supports the movement, or at least the "work" that the group leading the effort is doing.

Even Pat Robertson knows about Moon (http://www.patrobertson.com/NewsCommentary/FaithBasedInitiatives.asp), but for some reason he wants to continue to support Bush. Maybe he has that same stupid mentality that a lot of women with no good partners have that they can "change him." Of course Falwell doesn't care about Bush and Moon considering the fact that Falwell receives millions of dollar each year from Moon for Liberty University.

These people aren't Christian. They are "anthichristian," and the term "Christian" has been watered down. I'd much rather be called a child of God or a follwer of Jesus Christ.

[Az]

30. That is entirely the problem

You proclaim them to be nonchristians proclaiming themself to be Christians. They proclaim you to be a nonchristian proclaiming yourself to be a Christian. To us outsiders its a rather nonsensical argument. To us you are both Christians. Admittedly very different in demeanor and beliefs. But as you both proclaim yourself Christian we have no choice than to refer to you both as such.

And the only person that can definitively state which of you is a true Christian isn't really talking to anyone right now. If he actually exists.

[Djinn]

35. I really hope

Falwell et al aren't going to a land of milk and honey when they die but like Az says so succintly who am I to tell who's a REAL Christians (or Muslim or Hindu or whatever)

We have absolutely no idea what God (if he/she/it exists) was getting at (and lets be fair on ourselves here, for something that's omnipotent he could have been a bit clearer with the instructions) so how do we know whether he or she or it would approve of Falwell, Hitler, Desmond TuTu, Papa Doc Duvalier - all these people claimed to be doing what God wanted, who's to say which "God" really exists the lovely hippie one or the smiting killing one?

[independentchristian]

36. There is no problem

Jesus "CHRIST" is the reason for Christianity.

If you are following someone who claims tha tJesus Christ was a failure and is therefore not following the teachings of Jesus Christ or even acknowledging him to be what the bible says that he is, then you are not a Christian and there is nothing confusing about that to anyone who wants to know the difference.

Moonie = hater of Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ = source of Christianity
Hater of Jesus Christ = not Christian

What's so hard to understand about that?

These are not denominations that I'm talking about here. I'm not talking about a Methodist and a Presbyterian, or a Baptist and a Pentecostal.

I'm talking about someone who believes that Jesus is the messiah and someone who believes that Moon is the Messiah.

There is nothing confusing about the difference.

[Az]

38. I suspect the division

that most are citing in not the Moonie cults or other obvious derivitives. Rather it is fundamentalists that seem to find cause for hatred within the teachings of Jesus and other angry denominations.

[Hell in a Handbasket]

44. i suppose that depends on who you ask. nt