A number of people here ripped on Reggie White after he died

[WilliamPitt]

'The Minister of Defense,' as the press dubbed him, the Green Bay football player who died recently, who was a full-time Jesus-shouter who made a number of vile comments about gay people and others.

He deserved to get ripped on for that. But I heard a news story today that caught me up short. Reggie White was a huge evangelizer as a football player, but I didn't hear about the stuff that happened after he finished playing.

Apparently, he had a huge faith crisis, began to doubt the validity of the bible as he had known it. Reggie got hip to the use of language to distort, and came to understand that just a few words changed here and there can profoundly alter the context of a translation. He stopped celebrating Christmas because he doubted the words of the Bible.

What he did was to become a student of Hebrew, so he could read the original texts himself and cut out the middle-man. He studied Hebrew with the help of a Hebrew scholar in Jerusalem; they did their lessons by phone for hours each day. White would study Hebrew as much as ten hours a day, and became pretty damned proficient with it. He could work out a whole chapter of the original Hebrew Old Testament in two hours before he died.

The folks he used to preach for shunned him, said he was getting away from Christianity, and some accused him of converting to Judaism. But in fact, the man was working his ass off to get closer to the original words of Christianity, to leave aside the Americanized version of wild-eyed Protestantism and get the Word from the source, as it were. When he died, he would not call himself a Christian. He called himself a 'Believer.'

Yes, the man said vile things. But damn, I admire how he spent his last years. He threw over the strange Christianity he'd been fed his whole life and went looking for a deeper truth. I'll be honest and say I didn't mourn him when he died; I'm not from Green Bay, and the man had no impact on my life excerpt for one day furing the '96 Super Bowl. He left, and I really didn't notice.

But I am now sad that he didn't live to continue his quest. He was the kind of Christian that pissed me off; Jesus said not to pray in public like the Phariseees, but to keep your relationship with God personal and private. White was the opposite of that, but in his last years he wised up and went to work. Good Christian work: Striving to understand Christianity.

[sir_captain]

1. heh...you watched SportsCenter too?

But yeah, I completely agree with you. There are a lot of sanctimonious DUers, and they sure came out of the woodwork when Reggie died. The things said about his family were almost as vile as the things that had once come out of his mouth--it's sad, really.

[WilliamPitt]

4. Yeah, but

I understand why they nailed him. I agreed that he deserved to absorb some abuse. I saw this, though, and it turned my head around a little. I guess the moral is you just don't know people.

[sir_captain]

12. Oh, no doubt

though it's easy to fall into the same knee-jerk dogmatism that so often we accuse our opponents of subscribing to. I'm a Jew, but Jesus's whole "let he who is without sin..." idea has a lot of merit if you ask me. ;-)

[enigmatic]

2. I hear you, Will..

I didn't know that either; I'd love to read more.

But sadly, for alot here it won't matter in their own minds; it's too easy for them loop the same mind-numbing reasons to rag on his life, no matter how he tried to find the truth of his faith.

We're all flawed; I just wish some would look in the mirror and realize they are, too.

[mattclearing]

3. Interesting.

It seems so many people stop thinking critically at a certain point in their lives.

It's always good to see someone still learning, still thinking, still searching for truth into their older, and sadly in this case, final years.

[LittleClarkie]

15. The sad thing is I see this on both sides of the political spectrum

Republican AND Democrat. Sometimes breaking though someone's model of how they think the world works can be murder.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

5. Jim Bakker did that too - from prison.

I enjoyed reading his book.
I would be interested to hear more about this in detail.
Any stories "in depth" about his post-retirement religious thoughts?

[dad]

6. Religion - the cause of almost all of the world's problems

Reggie White said these words:

We always should look at the situation and ask ourselves a question. Why did God create us differently? Why did God make me black and you white? Why did God make the next guy Korean and the next guy Asian and the other guy Hispanic? Why did God create the Indians?

Well, it's interesting to me to know why now. When you look at the black race, black people are very gifted in what we call worship and celebration. A lot of us like to dance, and if you go to black churches, you see people jumping up and down, because they really get into it.

White people were blessed with the gift of structure and organization. You guys do a good job of building businesses and things of that nature and you know how to tap into money pretty much better than a lot of people do around the world.

Hispanics are gifted in family structure. You can see a Hispanic person and they can put 20 or 30 people in one home. They were gifted in the family structure.

When you look at the Asians, the Asian is very gifted in creation,
creativity and inventions. If you go to Japan or any Asian country, they can turn a television into a watch. They're very creative. And you look at the Indians, they have been very gifted in the spirituality.

When you put all of that together, guess what it makes. It forms a complete image of God. God made us different because he was trying to create himself. He was trying to form himself, and then we got kind of knuckleheaded and kind of pushed everything aside.

[rodeodance]

10. he left out the gay populaton (no surprize)

[DemBones DemBones]

7. Will, Jesus didn't say not to pray in public at all; He said not to make

a big show of it like the Pharisees.

Sadly, most who pray in public-- and annoy you and me -- believe that they're doing it sincerely and not just as show. Maybe we need to give more benefit of the doubt on this.

Remember that Jesus Himself prayed in public and preached in public.

[WilliamPitt]

8. pray to your Father who is in secret

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

- Matthew 6:5-6

[DemBones DemBones]

21. Yes, I know the Scripture, but you must know that Jesus

prayed and preached in synagogues and other public places despite saying this. I think it's all about attitude. Otherwise, we couldn't have Mass and He told us "This is My Body. Do this in remembrance of Me."

You'll note He didn't say you had to go into your room ALONE, either. :7

[sandnsea]

13. He invited people

As I recall. People came to him. I don't believe he ever went anywhere or said anything without being asked to or invited first. It kind of goes with the whole "inviting him into your heart" thing. He doesn't crash the door down, though sometimes it might be easier if he did.

[LittleClarkie]

17. I think intent and demeanor play a big part

I picture the Pharasees sort of looking around, making sure everyone can see how pious they are.

If the intent was to be showy, and the emphasis was on that and not on the act of prayer, then I think that is acting like a Pharasee.

If Reggie was sincere in just wanting to pray with the othr players from both sides (I liked that it was guys from both sides) I don't think the passage was referring to his behavior.

Most televangelists strike me as Pharasee-like, on the other hand. It's that holier than thou feeling you get.

[MrSlayer]

9. As an Eagles fan I've always loved Reggie the player.

Because he killed everyone we faced back in the day. But I never liked Reggie the preacher, I thought he was way too vocal and way too in your face with it. I read about his new attitude about Christianity a year or so ago and I thought he was making great strides away from fundamentalism. I particularly like the way he thought it best to question everything he was taught and sought to find his own answers. The man everyone was vilifying wasn't the same man at the time of his death, if that makes any sense. Reggie was getting it. I hated seeing everyone pissing on his grave.

[LittleClarkie]

14. I'm fascinated by that too

and admire anyone willing to try and go to the source and get at the nut of what was meant.

I like comparing translations myself. The Jerome Bible interests me, because it's supposed to be one of the earliest. I keep thinking that if you go back far enough to a translator who was closer to and understood the idioms of the time, you're better off.

I also throw in wondering how introducing Gentiles to the Jewish sect that was Christianity might have affected belief. Is some of what we think we know about Jesus influenced by pagan beliefs, like the virgin birth and such?

I don't have any answers yet. But I admire a seeker.

Good on ya, Reggie (and yes, I am a Cheesehead to boot.)

[Greybnk48]

11. Thanks for posting this Will

I am a Packer fan--and only Packer fans can appreciate what that means. I live and die with them every Sunday in the Fall. We all loved Reggie. But for many of us we were upset when he wore a jacket with "Jesus" on the back of it because of the exclusionary nature of the statement and it spilling over to being perceived as a team ideology. "If you're not Christian..." sort of connotation. Then he was invited to the state capitol to do an opening prayer (10 minutes) and he went on for an hour. His talk basically was a catalog of every racial stereotype one could think of. A colleague of mine and I figured out that the only one he omitted was "the Chinese are good at laundry." It was an unusual feeling. I didn't want to dislike him but felt it was my moral obligation--and it hurt. Not just me, but my kids as well.

We have and odd family in that I have encouraged my kids to choose their religion as adults (I'm an atheist and I tell people when asked what my religion is that I am a Packer fan, my husband is an agnostic, one daughter is liberal Christian UCC, one Jewish, and my son is undecided but likes Buddhism). My daughter who is Jewish, adored Reggie and was deeply hurt by his actions. I will email this to her and I know it will have a positive effect. It feels good to know this. Thank you for setting the record straight.

P.s. Will, you should post this in the Wisconsin forum if you haven;t already.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. My thoughts on this 'sore' subject

Personally, it was sad he left behind a family. Death is the great equalizer, and with it comes pain. However, I do not fault those, who were pissed at the things he said about gays, reacting the way they did. Sure, there were some comments that were over the top, but that is bound to happen. I feel more gay people here took issue with people here making him out to be some great idol that had fallen. Those posts just added insult to injury. To my knowledge, no one has "pissed on his grave," as it hasn't been reported in the MSM (and you something like that would get 24 hour coverage).

It is wonderful he was exploring his religion at the root. But, again to my knowledge, he NEVER retracted the VILE things he said about gays!!! While saying "sorry" doesn't make it right, a heartfelt retraction would have been a nice start. He did a lot of damage to the gay community and never accepted that fact, and some of those here at DU didn't accept that either.

This man was famous and looked up to by countless young boys (and a few girls, I am sure), and what he said was reprehensible! He polluted the waters, and never stopped to help clean them. For that, I cannot excuse his actions.

[WilliamPitt]

18. "he NEVER retracted the VILE things he said about gays!!"

That's kind of my point. He died on a spirit quest that was leading him farther and farther away from the breed of American Christianity that feeds off spreading divisiveness and hate. The tragedy for me is that he died before he had finished his own deprogramming.

I'd have bet that he would have come to apologize for, but more importantly to regret, the hurt he caused with his words. Real Christians aren't supposed to spread hate, and I do think he'd have come to atone for what he did.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. Funny thing

I was going to say something along the lines "had he lived, perhaps he would have retracted those statements." I didn't say that because it was speculative. The fact is he never retracted his statements, that will always be the truth. We will never know "what might have been." It just goes to show one needs to be careful with what one does and says because it may be the last thing you do.

[regnaD kciN]

20. Maybe yes, maybe no...

I'd have bet that he would have come to apologize for, but more importantly to regret, the hurt he caused with his words.

From what you say (his calling himself a "believer" as opposed to a "Christian," refusing to celebrate Christmas, and studying Hebrew exclusively rather than combining it with a study of Greek) suggests to me that he was moving toward "Messianic Judaism" (a.k.a. "Jews for Jesus" and other similar groups) rather than standard Christianity. While these groups may have a different view on the reliability of the Church that developed out of the ministry of the Apostles to the gentile world, they tend to be every bit as conservative on issues of sexuality, if not more so.

[DinahMoeHum]

22. Salon did a story about his faith crisis back in January. . .

Link: (need day pass if you're not a subscriber)
http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2005/01/03/reggie_white/print.html

(snip)
In an interview aired on the NFL Network four days before his death -- part of an hour-long program on religion in pro football -- White talked about his new direction. The man who once claimed that God told him to leave Philadelphia and sign with Green Bay, stated, "Sometimes when I look back on my life, there are a lot of things I said God said. I realize he didn't say nothing. It was what Reggie wanted to do. I do feel the Father ... gave me some signals ... but you won't hear me anymore saying God spoke to me about something -- unless I read something in scripture and I know."

In the interview, White also rejected a practice at the very heart of the athletic Christian movement, one he did much to popularize: the perceived imperative for the star athlete to use his stature to spread the Christian message. That was one of the founding goals of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes when it formed a half century ago, and it remains a major thrust of athletic Christianity today, acted out every time a player points to the heavens after a touchdown or home run, credits Jesus in an interview, or puts his fame to work in front of church congregations and youth gatherings. "I was an entertainer," White said. "People seemed to want to be entertained rather than taught."
(snip)

much much more...


NOTE: "...interview aired...four days before his death..."

[goddess40]

23. I wish more would follow his path

The original virgin birth means never having had a male son - it wasn't about never having sex.

He didn't live long enough to apologize for his hate filled words. He, like the rest of us, felt he had a lot more time to make amends. He probably hadn't gotten to the point where he understood how wrong he was, maybe if he had continued to translate from the original text he might have gotten to that point. But then again being an atheist myself I look at the bible as a work of historical fiction at best, a book of 'life lessons' of sort.

[ProfessorGAC]

24. This All Came Up Back When He Died

This is not new, Will. You must have missed it back then.
The Professor