Transcript MTP: BUCHANAN Wastes Shrub & Neo-Cons

[UTUSN]

(4 paragraphs rule doesn't apply to transcripts, does it? If so, I'll cut it down.)


Plus in the first half, my hero Charlie RANGEL wastes GRASSLEY. The best MTP in a long, long time, with G.E.RUSSERT being almost SILENT while BUCHANAN was ruling.

*******QUOTE*******

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6954712/

.... MR. PAT BUCHANAN: All right. Well, let's take Israel's situation. Mr. Begin signed an agreement to give back the Sinai to Egypt with Anwar Sadat, who is the successor of a military dictator, Nasser. He was not a Democrat. The Israeli government signed an agreement with Hafez al-Assad, a dictator of the worst kind, for a truce on the Golan Heights, which has held. What I am saying is this, Tim. You do not need a democratic government in order to achieve a success. ....

MR. BUCHANAN: Certainly it is. Look, the United States of America--I dissent strongly from my friend. The United States of America has always been free and always been secure. There have been despotisms from time in memorial. There are 22 Arab states, not one of which is democratic, and the United States has not been threatened by any of them since the Barbary pirates.

In my judgment, what happened on 9/11 was a result of interventionism. Interventionism is the cause of terror. It is not a cure for terror. The idea that the president of the United States, as he said in his inaugural, is going to help democratic institutions in every region in every nation on earth is a formula for permanent war, Tim. And look, the president of the United States has no constitutional authority to do this. Where in the Constitution do we get the right to intervene in the internal affairs of countries that do not threaten us and do not attack us? If they don't, their internal politics are their own business. As Quincy Adams says, "America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the champion of freedom everywhere, but the vindicator only of her own."

MR. RUSSERT: The president said that on September 11th, "Freedom came under attack."

MR. BUCHANAN: The president of the United States was profoundly mistaken. He has misdiagnosed the malady. He has misdiagnosed the reason for the attack, Tim. The United States was not attacked because we are free. Bin Laden was not attacking the Bill of Rights. We were attacked because the United--over here because the United States' military and political presence is massive over there. Bin Laden in his fatwah, his statement of declaration of war on the United States, said the infidels were standing on the sacred soil of Saudi Arabia. They want us out of the Middle East. They don't care whether we have a separation of church and state. ....

MR. BUCHANAN: We brought down the shah and we got the ayatollah. You bring down that Saudi monarchy, you destabilize that regime and Howard Dean, an Arab Howard Dean, is not going to rise out of the wreckage. That country is a nation whose people now admire and respect bin Laden, not George Bush. We cannot make the enemy the best of the good. Tim, look, we have had occasions, the last great crusade for democracy was Woodrow Wilson going across the sea with an army to make the world safer. We brought down all the monarchs and we got instead Lenin and Stalin and Mussolini and Hitler. ....

MR. BUCHANAN: If you believe in democracy...

MR. SHARANSKY: Yeah.

MR. BUCHANAN: ...that much, would you allow the fate of the settlers in Gaza...

MR. SHARANSKY: Yeah.

MR. BUCHANAN: ...to be decided by all the people of Gaza? Let them vote on whether the settlers should stay or go. You think they should stay. I want to make one more point. The Israelis, when they invaded Lebanon to chase out the PLO, there was no Shia uprising against them. They called into existence that invasion and occupation did, Hezbollah, which eventually drove the Israelis out of Lebanon. Interventionism is not the cure for terror. It is the cause of terror. ....

MR. BUCHANAN: ...and you say democracies are peaceful. Israel has fought five major wars since it was established. In three of them, 1956, 1967 and 1982, Israel launched pre-emptive strikes. It has been one of the most warlike countries in the Middle East. You have the king of Morocco, king of Jordan, king of Saudi Arabia and Ariel Sharon. Which of those four has been more warlike? ....

********UNQUOTE*******

[UL_Approved]

1. Spank

:spank:

[Dulcinea]

78. We are indeed at a strange place in the universe...

...if Pat Buchanan is making more sense than our leadership.

[Kingshakabobo]

2. Why does Buchanan hate us for our freedoms?

:shrug:

[BlueEyedSon]

5. WTF are you talking about?

[Kingshakabobo]

13. Sarcasm.

I almost fell out of my chair this morning when I played my tivo'd episode of "Meet the Press" and heard Pat say:

"They want us out of the Middle East. They don't care whether we have a separation of church and state."

[BlueEyedSon]

15. Thanks for the reply!

[Lisa0825]

28. OMIGOD! That was my favorite quote!!!!

"They want us out of the Middle East. They don't care whether we have a separation of church and state."

He did a great job on the show!

[Toots]

33. Separation of Church and State......Not if Bush* has his way

It won't be long til we are more intolerant than the entire Arab Community.

[Tinoire]

92. Awesome response. Pat's I mean. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. He Only Hates You If You Put Your Pepe In Another Man's Hiney

"Homosexuality involves sexual acts most men consider not only
immoral, but filthy. The reason public men rarely say aloud what
most say privately is they are fearful of being branded 'bigots' by
an intolerant liberal orthodoxy that holds, against all evidence
and experience, that homosexuality is a normal, healthy lifestyle."
(syndicated column, 9/3/89

On AIDS, Buchanan wrote in 1983: "The poor homosexuals -- they have
declared war upon nature, and now nature is extracting an awful retribution
(7/31/93)


He's also made equally offensive remarks about blacks, Mexicans, Jews , and feminists...


Too bad Pat didn't have kids... His daughter could have fell in love with a biracial women of Mexican heitage who practiced Judaism and was an acolyte of Betty Freidan...

[paineinthearse]

3. Buchanan is a traditional conservative

Tradtional conservatives I can live and work with. We have a mutual foe in neoconservatives.

[indepat]

14. Neoconservatives, first and foremost, are foes of our Constitution, this

Republic.

[XNASA]

4. If most Repubublicans were like Pat......

I wouldn't have a problem with them.

[housewolf]

114. Oh, I don't know about that....

The only place progressives & Buchanan agree is about the Iraq War and disapproval of neo-cons.

Buchanan is still wants more tax cuts for the rich & corporations, elimination of the inheritance tax, reduced taxes for profits from stocks, smaller government, reduction of government spending, reducition of government regulations, elimination of social programs, privitized social security and everything else, stronger military, more difficult immigration policies, and everything else related to the traditional conservative "strict authoritian" agenda.

I love that he opposes the neo-cons, their pro-empite agenda and the Iraq War, but there is little else that I, as a progressive, can find to agree with him on.

Oh, he's not a fundie, another point in his favor.

He's a traditional Reagan conservative, lots to disagree with there.

[XNASA]

115. True. But those are domestic issues.

And even though I don't agree with him on most of those....it's OK because a healthy debate is a good one.

It's not like Pat wants to rip the Constitution to shreds. He's a Conservative. It's his right to be one.

[BlueEyedSon]

6. Kicked and recommended

PB is speaking rationally here....

9/11 was a result of interventionism. Interventionism is the cause of terror. It is not a cure for terror.]

The president of the United States was profoundly mistaken. He has misdiagnosed the malady. He has misdiagnosed the reason for the attack

formula for permanent war

the president of the United States has no constitutional authority to do this

Hear, hear!!!!

[laura888]

100. Indeed! And I like his choice of words: "misdiagnosed the malady."

I'm recommending it as well.

[shaolinmonkey]

7. What has happened to this country that I am agreeing with

Pat Buchanan? Have I gone mad?

He's right on the money here and I find it profoundly disturbing.

[BlueEyedSon]

8. He's still part of the"reality-based community"...that's the common ground

[midnight armadillo]

68. I can top that

What has happened to this country that I am agreeing with Pat Buchanan? Have I gone mad?

A few months ago Buchanan was on teh Connection (I think), an NPR talk show, discussing BushCo & other topics. I swear, the thought: "I'd rather have Buchanan as president over Bush" ran through my mind. I nearly drove off the road.

I generally loathe Buchanan's ideas, but he's smart and actually has rational arguments about how he sees the state and direction of the county. I disagree with all his conclusions and would rather have a ficus tree elected over him to any office, but Buchanan is far preferable to the fascist, anti-democracy neocons.

[hvn_nbr_2]

74. It's scary how often I agree with Pat Buchanan lately.

I read the editorial page in the lunch room at work and walk away just shaking my head. "Damn, I agree with Pat Buchanan again."

[CindyDale]

9. These Buchanan threads just keep popping up, don't they?

Buchanan is more dangerous. He is smarter and more bigoted.

Will people support literally ANYBODY to get rid of Bush? That is scary. It makes me wonder just who might get in in 2008. I guess it can always get worse, huh?

Here are the previous threads exposing Buchanan:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1593364

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3104023

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1592580

[BlueEyedSon]

11. No one is supporting him. However, much of this transcript is the truth.

We have lost so much ground in the MSM, I'm glad SOMEONE is saying these things!!!

[CindyDale]

17. Well, not the whole truth

which is the sign of a terrific liar. 99% truth with the most important part left out.

Did he talk about oil? About Halliburton? I checked the transcript and didn't see it.

[BlueEyedSon]

18. The public will not accept (or understand) peak oil & dollar hegemony

or exposure of the PNAC "conspiracy" for that matter.

It's all to complex. The peeps don't have that kind of intelligence and attention span.

[CindyDale]

20. But they will understand hate

scapegoating Jewish neocons and Israel for policies we are following out of greed.

OK, I get it.

[BlueEyedSon]

22. When did Cheney & Rumsfeld convert?

Or Bush for that matter? It was the nonsense in his various speeches that Pat was debunking.

[CindyDale]

24. He was on with them, too?

I thought he was on with a Jew. Guess I misunderstood.

[BlueEyedSon]

26. You're switching gears on me here. The truth behind the Iraq

invasion & occupation are not dependent on who is on MTP on any given Sunday.

Nor is the truth of the president's contitutional authorities. Nor is the truth that Bush's stated goals are a formula for perpetual war (as opposed to "spreading freedom"). etc, etc....

[CindyDale]

29. Follow the money

That's all I can say. Who is making money off this war? If he doesn't say that, he isn't telling the truth.

Condoleeza of Chevron and Richard of Halliburton didn't support the war? They didn't lie?

[UTUSN]

16. There Is NO Implication of "Supporting" B. for Anything

I detest BUCHANAN's other agenda, his views on immigration, his cultural racism. But as a traditional Conservative regarding wasting Shrub and his string-pullers, he is and has been succinct and better at it than just about anybody. For the record, I have detested him since the NIXON years. He doesn't need "exposing" for me.

[chicagiana]

50. He's a realist ...

On immigration, I am sympathetic with him. Because he realizes that opening the borders means opening them FOREVER and eliminating ANY control on the nature of this nation.

If you're going to open the borders, you might as well just start letting EVERYONE vote for our elections. Because THAT is going to be the ultimate result.

I disagree with Pat on MOST things. But as a center-progressive, I see his realism and RESPECT his honesty in matters.

On the cultural front, I think that some liberals are calling the Kettle Black. Because Liberals have their own notions on "correct culture". And liberals are JUST as likely to decry things they do not agree with. IN SOME cases they go as far as enforcing those values on others (college speech codes).

I don't AGREE with Buchannan's notions on what this nation SHOULD be. But I agree that we do need some sense of cultural cohesion in order to REMAIN a nation.

[shadowknows69]

32. the enemy of my enemy is my friend n/t

[Jacobin]

63. Are you concerned that he doesn't support wars

which Israel wants us to pursue for their own hegemony?

I agree with Buchannan on this point. He's right. If we are going to war to help Israel, let us just say it out front and see if the public supports it. If not, then let's stop making up silly excuses for the invasions and stop invading countries for fake reasons.

[CindyDale]

82. Economic profit is fake? LOL

The oil companies are just imagining that their profits are going up? Halliburton just thinks it's making money? The joke is on them?

[satya]

10. Sounds like Pat is pretty impressed by Howard Dean, too.

We brought down the shah and we got the ayatollah. You bring down that Saudi monarchy, you destabilize that regime and Howard Dean, an Arab Howard Dean, is not going to rise out of the wreckage.

[BlueEyedSon]

12. He recognizes that Dean is a populist

[CornField]

19. Blech...

Lest we forget:

We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America.
-- Pat Buchanan, campaign address at an anti-gay rally in Des Moines, Iowa, February 11, 1996

Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free.
-- Pat Buchanan, speaking before the Christian Coalition in 1993

Homosexuality involves sexual acts most men consider not only immoral, but filthy. The reason public men rarely say aloud what most say privately is they are fearful of being branded "bigots" by an intolerant liberal orthodoxy that holds, against all evidence and experience, that homosexuality is a normal, healthy lifestyle.
-- Pat Buchanan, September 3, 1989

Homosexuality is not a civil right. Its rise almost always is accompanied, as in the Weimar Republic, with a decay of society and a collapse of its basic cinder block, the family.
-- Pat Buchanan, 1977

Gay rights activists seek to substitute, for laws rooted in JudeoChristian morality, laws rooted in the secular humanist belief that all consensual sexual acts are morally equal. That belief is anti-biblical and amoral; to codify it into law is to codify a lie.
-- Pat Buchanan, Wall Street Journal, January 21, 1993

The poor homosexuals -- they have declared war upon nature, and now nature is extracting an awful retribution.
-- Pat Buchanan, discussing AIDS in 1983

With 80,000 dead of AIDS, our promiscuous homosexuals appear literally hell-bent on Satanism and suicide.
-- Pat Buchanan, in his syndicated column, October 17, 1990

AIDS is nature's retribution for violating the laws of nature.
-- Pat Buchanan, during his 1992 presidential campaign

The War Between the States was about independence, about self-determination, about the right of a people to break free of a government to which they could no longer give allegiance. How long is this endless groveling before every cry of "racism" going to continue before the whole country collectively throws up?
-- Pat Buchanan, accusing someone of "putting on an act" by associating the Confederacy with slavery, July 28, 1993

There were no politics to polarize us then, to magnify every slight. The "negroes" of Washington had their public schools, restaurants, bars, movie houses, playgrounds and churches; and we had ours.
-- Pat Buchanan, when discussing race relations in the 1950s, in Right from the Beginning

We were among Hoover's conduits to the American people,
-- Pat Buchanan, who was caught publishing FBI anti-Martin Luther King Jr. propaganda as his own editorials in the St. Louis Globe Democrat in the mid-1960s, in Right from the Beginning, Buchanan's 1988 autobiography

outrage many, many people who believe Dr. King was a fraud and a demagogue and perhaps worse.... Others consider him the Devil incarnate. Dr. King is one of the most divisive men in contemporary history.
-- Pat Buchanan, while working as a White House adviser to Nixon, reported in the New York Daily News, October 1, 1990

Take a hard look at Duke's portfolio of winning issues and expropriate those not in conflict with GOP principles reverse discrimination against white folks.
-- Pat Buchanan, February 25, 1989

There is nothing wrong with us sitting down and arguing that issue that we are a European country.
-- Pat Buchanan, Newsday, November 15, 1992

How, then, can the feds justify favoring sons of Hispanics over sons of white Americans who fought in World War II or Vietnam?
-- Pat Buchanan, discussing affirmative action, January 23, 1995

An across-the-board assault on our Anglo-American heritage.
-- Pat Buchanan, describing multiculturalism, when speaking before the Christian Coalition in 1993

an individual of great courage.... Hitler's success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path.
-- Pat Buchanan, in a 1977 column, The Guardian, January 14, 1992

Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody.
-- Pat Buchanan, expressing his revisionist views, challenging the fact that diesel exhaust was used to gas thousands of Jews at Treblinka, and discussing "group fantasies of martyrdom" in The New Republic, October 22, 1990

It's running down 70-year-old camp guards.
-- Pat Buchanan, in The New York Times, discussing his attempts at closing down the U.S. Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations (which was in charge of prosecuting Nazi war criminals) April 21, 1987

Rail as they will about "discrimination," women are simply not endowed by nature with the same measures of single-minded ambition and the will to succeed in the fiercely competitive world of Western capitalism.
-- Pat Buchanan, November 22, 1983

The real liberators of American women were not the feminist noise-makers, they were the automobile, the supermarket, the shopping center, the dishwasher, the washer-dryer, the freezer.
-- Pat Buchanan, Right from the Beginning

If a woman has come to believe that divorce is the answer to every difficult marriage, that career comes before children ... no democratic government can impose another set of values upon her.
-- Pat Buchanan, Right from the Beginning

Like all idolatries, democratism substitutes a false god for the real, a love of process for a love of country.
-- Pat Buchanan, 1990

You just wait until 1996, then you'll see a real right-wing tyrant.
-- Pat Buchanan, just before he announced his candidacy for the 1996 presidential election in 1995


(BTW, there are LOTS more... this is not someone who can be trusted with our democracy.)

[UTUSN]

21. Nobody's Forgetting Anything about PB. We're Talking about the Neo-Cons

[CindyDale]

23. Talk about oil, talk about Halliburton

Buchanan is a phony, scapegoating an ethnic group for what he knows was brought on by economic interests.

[GiovanniC]

25. The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend (For Now)

Buchanan despises Bush.
We despise Bush.

Buchanan has more pull with the right-wingers and is more likely to get them to see our perspective than we are.

[CindyDale]

27. He doesn't have our perspective, though, at least not mine

He doesn't address the real issues or the causes of the war. He looks for scapegoats. He is actually helping scapegoat others for what Bush has done.

He was on MSNBC repeating over and over every smear he could think of against Kerry the week before the election.

With friends like him, no one needs enemies indeed.

[GiovanniC]

30. His Job Isn't to Get Kerry Elected

I could say that if Kerry wasn't going to waste his time getting Kerry elected, then why should Pat Buchanan? But that's a question for another time and place.

It IS, however, my perspective that Bush's policies overseas are not reducing terrorism but are in fact increasing the likelihood that we will experience another horrific terrorist attack. It is my perspective that the United States should not take it upon itself to invade every non-Democratic country and install a new government in its place. It is my perspective that this endless war makes us, in fact, less safe and not more safe.

If I say that, Democrats might listen and agree but I'll never get through to hard-core right-wingers.

If Dean or Kerry or Sharpton or Clinton or Boxer says that, Democrats will listen but right-wingers probably won't.

If Buchanan says it, right-wingers WILL and DO listen.

And you know what? FUCK... at least he's out there saying it. You've got Rangle out there saying it too, and he's a fucking American hero but a shitload of DEMS are sitting on their hands doing fuck-all about these wars being fought with our blood and our money and our international goodwill. At least Buchanan is saying it.

[CindyDale]

31. Lying is better than keeping silent?

Whatever.

[GiovanniC]

38. Saying, "The Terrorists Didn't Attack Us For Our Freedoms" Is NOT a Lie

That's the damn truth and nobody else is saying it.

Saying, "This foreign policy is not the cure for terrorism, it's the cause of terrorism" is not a lie, that's also the truth.

Saying that we cannot afford by blood or by money to install a US-approved Democracy in every corner of the globe is not a lie, that's also the truth.

And Buchanan can get that message out to the right-wingers a hell of a lot better than you can or I can. And don't bother asking elected Democrats to actually show up for work and earn their fucking day's wages because it just ain't happening. Would I like it if every Democrat was out there saying, "What they're saying is bullshit... here's the truth!"? Hell yes I would. But I've been waiting a long time for that and it hasn't been happening.

Buchanan is getting some important points out there and the fact that he isn't saying exactly what a Democrat would say if they had the fucking gonads to actually speak up does not negate that.

[CindyDale]

40. It's doesn't take gonads to lie

People lie out of fear, to cover up what has really happened.

[GiovanniC]

45. Which of Those Things Is a Lie?

Are you saying that the reason the terrorists hate us is because of our "freedoms"?

Are you saying that Bush's foreign policy IS destroying terrorism?

Are you saying that Bush's foreign policy ISN'T creating more terrorism?

Because THOSE are the lies that Buchanan was dispensing with yesterday morning. THOSE are the lies that hardly any of the elected Democrats are correcting. Those are the lies that we have to hear day in and day out from Republicans, Democrats, and the fucking media.

I have been called "anti-American" by right-wingers when I have said that these wars that Bush is starting is creating more terrorists and will result in us being attacked again with another 9/11 or something worse. Many of the same right-wingers who called me that and discounted my message will listen when they hear Pat Buchanan say that because they idolize the asshole. It is NOT GOOD ENOUGH to preach to the choir on this one. The Independents must be won over. The right-wingers too.

We know these wars are a PNAC scheme. That Halliburton's coffers grow larger each day, that the evil fuckers involved are doing this because of mineral resources and not any lofty notions of freedom or liberty abroad. But we are the only ones who give a shit about any of that. But get people to realize that their own personal selfish existances are endangered, and people will listen.

It is not a lie to say that these wars are against the best interests of American citizens. I keep listening to hear people talk about it... but all I hear is Buchanan. That's not Buchanan's fault, that's the fault of our worthless, wimpy-ass, cowering elected officials.

[CindyDale]

51. If you say the war is wrong, and it's the Jews' fault, it's a lie

and that is what he is implying.

How is the fact that he is a better liar than Bush going to help anything?

Sheesh.

[GiovanniC]

59. Buchanan Didn't Say "It's the Jews' Fault"

However, he DID say that terrorism was caused by this bullshit foreign policy, and that the terrorists don't hate us because of our Bill of Rights, which is something that most DEMS won't even say, much less a Republican.

I sincerely doubt that very many people walked away from his appearance on Meet the Press and said, "Buchanan is saying those goddamn Jews are responsible for all our problems." In fact, you might be the only one who did.

[CindyDale]

61. I've never heard him hold anyone responsible except Jews

Even when he refers to neocons, he only mentions Jewish names.

No one on any of these Buchanan threads says anything about the true causes of this war. It's all anti-neocon and he has linked neocon to Jews.

Hope it doesn't bother anyone that I point this out, but I feel it's an important point.

[GiovanniC]

64. I Think You Might Be One of the Only People Who Gives a Shit

Hardly anyone else is paying any attention to whether it's the Wolfowitzes or whoever that are responsible for us being there. Nobody knows who PNAC is. Even Halliburton and Carlyle Group is a mystery to most Americans. That dog isn't gonna hunt throughout most of America.

"This war is increasing your risk of dying a horrible painful death at the hands of terrorists" -- that's a message people will listen to, and it has the added benefit of being true.

You and Pat Buchanan can have your own views about whether or not it's some Jewish conspiracy that caused the war in the first place until the cows come home and you're free to do so. In the meantime, hardly anyone else cares.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

71. With friends like Israel, who needs enemies?

I'm not anti-Semitic, but the state of Israel is a cancer on our foreign policy.

Every Palestinian kid killed with an American made M-16 makes us the enemy to 1/7 of the world's population.

As for the neo-conjob, it's run by the kids of Holocast survivors. Sorry, but they don't have carte blanche to destroy the world in order to make sure Israel is safe.

And Iraq is at least as much about Israel's safety as it is oil.

[Tafiti]

80. Right on ITMS!

Well said. And for some to try and pull the anti-Semite card on sentiments like this is bullshit.

[CindyDale]

85. Fill up your tank

drive off in your Hummer, and hide behind Israel.

Hide, hide, hide.

[Tafiti]

86. Do you even know what your argument is anymore?

I gotta say, I'm not sure where you were trying to go with that comment, but it's pretty fucking hilarious! Zinger!

[CindyDale]

87. I wasn't even aware there was an arguement

I am commenting on how hypocritical it is to profit from a war and blame someone else for that war.

It has nothing to do with any arguement.

Glad you enjoyed it, though!

[Tafiti]

90. Yeah, but what's funny about this whole thing...

...is that nobody actually is blaming someone else for the war! I guess that was the part that kind of confused me - your comments obviously belong in a different thread on a different discussion topic, because in some other case, I'd surely agree with you. And all this fuss over nothing...

[CindyDale]

94. It sounded to me as though they were

It's certainly not as though everyone is saying, "What part of this war is my fault?"

Note: This is not an invitation to argue. :-)

[Tafiti]

96. Like I said, I agree with you...

...about oil and the profit motive being factors in the war. That almost goes without saying, IMO.

But about this particular MTP transcripts, the issue at hand is this, which Russert introduces at the beginning of the questioning:

"...Sharansky notwithstanding, democracy is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition of America's peace and security, nor even of Israel's. Explain."

This has nothing to do with blaming others for the war, the whole issue was the democratization of Iraq, and whether democracy is necessary to achieve diplomatic successes in the Middle East. Maybe his comments will make a little more sense in that context.

No argument here. Besides, my work day is officially over, and now I must go! :)

[The Blue Knight]

34. The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend.

Gio hit the nail on the head

[CindyDale]

36. David Duke is your friend, too

He's against the war as well.

[GiovanniC]

41. Excellent.

You know, sometimes it's better that these abhorrent people like Buchanan and Duke take these positions anyway. Because if Buchanan is against the war, I know he'll be all over the place saying it. David Duke too. If it's a Democrat, nine times out of ten they are meekly sitting in a corner whimpering.

I want as many people to hear that this war is bullshit as possible. I don't give a fuck who the messenger is, as long as it gets through to people. If Pat Buchanan says that this war is wrong, or that "They don't hate us for our freedoms", the fact that he is wrong about so many other things doesn't make him any less right about that.

So what... if David Duke comes out and says he's against Bush's social security plan, I should rail against him and argue for the Cat-Food-For-Seniors Plan just to disagree with a guy I dislike? No.

David Duke and Pat Buchanan have a lot of ideas that I personally disagree with and despise. But when their opinions are correct, I am not going to discount them and their ability to get that message to a different audience than we can simply because I dislike the messenger.

[CindyDale]

43. An incomplete truth is a lie

and a very good one. His job is not to say the war is not in the interest of most Americans. His job is to divert the blame.

[GiovanniC]

46. I See... So It's Not Good Enough To Be Against the War

There's a road that's full of disappointment. If a person is against the war because it decreases America's safety, that's not fucking good enough because they aren't against it for the "right reasons"? If a person is going to be legitimately against this war, it must only be because of PNAC and Halliburton and the Carlyle Group and Saudi ties and oil money and CIA connections or else their opposition is based on lies by omission and they are of no use to anyone?

How has that been working out for you?

I just want these wars to end. Honestly, at the moment I don't give a fuck how that end is achieved. I don't care if it's because Bush has a religious experience and sees the light, I don't care if it's because Pat Buchanan snookers the American public into hating the war because it decreases America's safety, I don't care if it's because the Democrats all collectively wake up and finally speak out against this shit and finally shut this down. Honestly, sad as it is, I see the first two options far more likely than the third.

If the Democrats wanted this to end, they could make it end, and I don't give a fuck if they're in the minority. Being the minority party is not an excuse to fail to show up to work. These guys have a job, and that's to represent us, and a HUGE majority of them are not doing their fucking jobs.

You wanna be pissed off because your politically pure truth isn't getting out to the people... don't blame Pat Buchanan. At least he's speaking out against these wars and against this foreign policy. You wanna be pissed off, be pissed off at the people who have a DUTY to get that truth out and who ARE NOT DOING SO.

[CindyDale]

56. Well if you don't care how it ends, then , would you settle

for nuking the whole Middle East?

This makes no sense at all. If we don't care how our end is achieved, we are depraved.

[GiovanniC]

57. You Are Deliberately Misrepresenting What I Am Saying

And I've seen you doing it all over this thread. At first I gave you the benefit of the doubt and just assumed you were thick-headed. But NOBODY is as thick-headed as you are acting... it's deliberate.

I gave three examples of how this war could end. Nowhere did I say that an acceptable ending for this war would be "nuking the Middle East".

[CindyDale]

58. I thought you said you supported Buchanan's message

If you don't, then I've misrepresented you, and I apologize.

If you do, then I haven't misrepresented you.

I didn't say you had said that nuking was acceptable.

You have actually misquoted me. LOL

[GiovanniC]

60. I Support a Message That Says This War Is Wrong

I support a message that says the terrorists didn't attack us for our freedoms, for our Bill of Rights, or for our separation of church and state.

I support a message that says that our foreign policy of interfering with the internal affairs of other governments often replaces a monster with a devil and also increases our risk of terrorist attack.

I support a message that says that these wars of choice and these pre-emptive strikes and these supposed attempts to spread our version of democracy across the globe does not actually reduce our chance of being attacked and actually does the opposite.

I support a message that points out that the doctrines our government has been following is a recipe for disaster and total, unending war.

I wish Democrats were saying it. I don't like agreeing with Buchanan about anything, but I'm not going to disagree with the truth just because I don't like the truth-teller.

[CindyDale]

62. I agree, but it should be the whole truth.

An almost all truth is simply a good lie.

[GiovanniC]

66. Bullshit

You are so completely full of shit. By your standards, does ANYONE EVER tell the truth? I mean honestly, what the fuck does "It must be the whole truth or it's not the truth" even mean?

If I say, "Grass is green", is that a lie because I didn't say, "Grass is green because of certain pigments/chloroplasm that allows plants to convert the sun's rays into energy by a process known as photosynthesis"? Or do I need to get even more detailed than THAT, because there are other scientific facts about chloroplasm and photosynthesis that I did not adequately address?

The truth is that Buchanan told the truth on Meet the Press yesterday, and he may have changed some minds by having a concise, reasoned argument against the Bush Doctrine Wars of Choice®... even if it wasn't as "pure" as you wish it was.

By the by, just from your standards... how many DEMS actually tell the truth all the time?

[CindyDale]

67. I think this conversation is over

LOL

[GiovanniC]

72. See, Look! You're Actually Right

All those other posts on this thread were completely full of shit, but this one time you were correct. See how easy it is for someone to be wrong pretty much all the time and then still get one thing right?

[Tafiti]

81. No worries.

You were crystal clear the whole time.

She painted herself into a corner and didn't want to admit defeat. So she kept talking out of her ass, taking you out of context, being deliberately obtuse, and then bowed out, as if frustrated that she just can't get you to understand.

[CindyDale]

84. Personal attacks are not an acceptable form of arguement to me

and if I want to feel the hate I can go to a Republican site.

Moreover, I'm not frustrated. He understood, and so do you.

You all will fit right in with ole Pat.

[Tafiti]

89. Duly noted, but while I've got you here...

In arguments with me, I prefer:

1. Reason
2. Logic
3. Facts
4. Absence of melodrama, hyperbole, distortions, unwarranted inferences, etc. that serve to distract from the issue in question.

So far, you've managed to violate all of my preferences in nearly every post of yours in this thread, so I'll have to respectfully decline any invitations to an argument with you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. It's Sad That Progressive Folks Are Fighting Over Pat Buchanan

Even if his analysis is correct in this instance he is an evil man with contempt for most folks who are different than him...

[Tafiti]

93. I agree.

"Even if his analysis is correct in this instance..."

I, and apparently many others, happen to think it is.

And therein lies the rub. That's all people on this thread were saying. Nobody was saying, "Wow, I LOVE Pat Buchanan now. Who cares what he said in the past! He's great!" Didn't see anyone saying that. It was mostly, "Wow, I hate Buchanan, I can't believe I agree with what he's saying in this instance." End of story. Otherwise, he's an idiotic, racist, homophobic dirtbag.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

110. Point, GiovanniC

1-0

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. You Sound Like A Decent Fella Or Gal

Don't waste your breath defending Buchanan because if you are a gay, a liberal, a small d democrat, a feminist, a non-white immigrant, a homosexual or a jew he won't defend you...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Pat Buchanan Is As Ineffective A Vessel To Get A Political Message Out

As A Condom With A Hole In It Is In Preventing STDS...

He ran for pres in 00 and got less than one half percent of the vote running on the Reform party ticket...

I could have gotten more votes by putting my name on the Reform Party ticket because I wouldn't have to defend Buchanan's reactionary views on blacks, gays, feminists, Mexicans, and others...

[GiovanniC]

47. I Don't Know

I just saw him on Meet the Press fucking owning his opponent and making a very clear case against our current foreign policy in a way that Republicans and Democrats alike could agree on.

The fact that he's a "Republican" gives him AT LEAST the same "I must listen to my conscience and oppose my own party" credibility that the "Democrat" Zell Miller had.

[Darranar]

109. What if the enemy of your enemy is your enemy, too? n/t

[chicagiana]

53. I'd rather have him inside the tent pissing out ...

... than outside the tent pissing in.

I think Pat is permanently outside every tent but John McGlaughlin's. And he pisses anywhere and everywhere.

When he pisses on Bush, we should applaud and give him all the coffee he wants ;-)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. Is David Duke Our Pal Too?

He's saying the same things as Pat Buchanan and arguably has a bigger following.....

www.davidduke.com

He was an elected state official in Louisiana and nearly beat a sitting governor, Edwin Edwards...

[GiovanniC]

42. On This Issue, Perhaps

It is the message that is right or wrong. The messenger might be distasteful to me, but if his message is right and he's delivering it to people you or I cannot reach, I would say that's helpful.

[txaslftist]

35. Thanks for putting the wanker in perspective! LOL

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. I Can't Believe He Said You Deserve To Die For Having A Little Buttsex

eom

[txaslftist]

52. I think it was just male-male buttsex he was against.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. That's It...

Ever hear the song Rain Man by Eminem

Now in the bible it says
thou shall now watch two lesbians in bed
have homosexual sex
unless of course you were given the consent to join in
then of course it's intercourse and it bisexual sex
which isn't as bad as long as you show some remorse for your actions
either before, during, or after performing the act of that which
is normally reffered to as such more commonly known phrases
that are more used by today kids
in a more derogatory way
but who's to say what's fair to say and what not to say
let ask Dr. Dre
Dr. Dre (what up?)
I got a question if i may (yea)
is it gay to play putt putt golf with a friend (yea)
and watch his butt butt when he tees off (yea)
but but i aint done yet
in football a quarterback yells out hut hut
while he reaches in another grown man's ass
grabs on his nuts, but just what if
it was never meant, it was just an accident
but he tripped, fell, slipped and his penis went in
his teeny, tiny, little, round hiney
and he didn't mean it but his little weenie flinched just a little bit
and I don't need to go into any more details
but what if he pictured it as a female's butt
is that gay? I just need to clear things up
til then I'll just walk around with a manly strut because...

Here's an excerpt

[AngryOldDem]

48. Pat rocked yesterday. Period.

And Sharansky didn't do himself any favors by more or less admitting that we **like** dictatorships as long as we're getting something from them. Russert's question about Pakistan (help with the war on terror), Saudi Arabia (oil), and Egypt (power broker in Mideast peace talks) was also brilliant.

Pat ruled MTP.

[TWiley]

49. Lets hope that Church radio picks up on this one.

The fires of holy hell will be the most effective tool in the box when it comes to neutering that born-again-fool in the white-house.

I really hate to say it, but a round of applause for Pat please.

[CindyDale]

54. Go Christians! It's not your fault again! Woohoo!

Remember those people who crucified Jesus? Well, now they made Chevron and Halliburton invade Iraq.

So it's not your fault. You voted for Bush and he was led by the nose.

Whoopee!

[TWiley]

95. Ya, maybe ole Pat will become the dissenting

Christian voice. Unfortunately, there is not one as of late. You are right though, those bastards wanted this war, and supported the shrub. I really expected that the critical thinking skills of all the Christian leaders had gone down the waste pipe. They all sing praises to their lord ... shrub.

As much as I dislike Robertson, he is speaking the truth in this case, and it is extraordinary for a "Christian" to speak ill of the bushtapo's policy.

[spacedog]

70. wow

extremely well put. Go Pat!

[laura888]

73. For the record: questioning Israel's policies doesn't = anti-semitism

Pat says:

"Israel has fought five major wars since it was established. In three of them, 1956, 1967 and 1982, Israel launched pre-emptive strikes. It has been one of the most warlike countries in the Middle East. You have the king of Morocco, king of Jordan, king of Saudi Arabia and Ariel Sharon. Which of those four has been more warlike?"

Is this a lie?

[CindyDale]

75. None of the above

I think the correct answer is the United States, right?

[CindyDale]

76. And no, of course, it isn't anti-Semitic

In fact, I argued that it wasn't anti-Semitic on another thread.

Israel's policies are wrong in many cases.

That has nothing to do with our involvement in Iraq, however, and to imply that it does is not very honest.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. I Don't Like Pat's Position On Male-Male Buttsex As Previosly Discussed

It's seems a tad bit draconian that a fella should get a potentially terminal disease (AIDS) just for putting his pepe in another man's hiney...

[CindyDale]

79. It's a fact of life

but yes, it is a little odd to support disease.

It's sort of like saying, "God kills people who eat raw oysters with hepatitis."

Um, OK.

[Swamp Rat]

83. I hate it when I agree with Pat Buchanan! n/t

:(

[walldude]

88. While I think ole' Pat is scum

He speaks the truth here. Or part of it at least, like some have said. Whatever his motives, and I'm sure he's got some, it's going to take people like him, speaking to the kool-aide drinkers to get them to wake up.

[Tinoire]

97. Thanks for posting this. I was eager to read the transcript...

What I caught of the exchange was A+ excellent.

As I said in another thread, I do not care what Pat's personal's beliefs are. There are plenty of Democrats whose personal beliefs I can't stand and whom I consider just as racist, if not worse, than Pat Buchanan. I applaud him for taking the only acceptable moral stance one can take on this war.

He spoke for me Sunday. Pat Buchanan spoke for me and spoke out against an atrocity being perpetrated on innocent brown people halfway around the globe. Thank you Pat.

[scarletwoman]

98. Are you all forgetting that Pat endorsed Duhbya for president?

Pat Buchanon is one of the editors of "American Conservative" magazine. In the November 2004 edition, there was no agreement among the editorial staff on who to endorse for president -- one of the editors (NOT Buchanon) even endorsed Kerry! So the magazine decided to publish each staff member's own personal opinion on the matter and declined to make an overall endorsement.

Pat's editorial was an endorsement of the chimperor, here: http://www.amconmag.com/2004_11_08/cover.html

Pat may come off as seemingly rational once in awhile, but he's a bush supporter all the way -- don't be fooled!

sw

[laura888]

99. fooled into what? He's speaking what needs to be said...

...and its getting coverage.

Nuff said.

[scarletwoman]

103. The original post says "wastes shrub" -- that's what I mean.

Did you read the article at the link I posted?

Buchanon may rail against the neo-cons, but when push comes to shove he WILL stand by bush -- he won't "waste" him.

sw

[DemocratSinceBirth]

104. You Are Right On...

Buchanan supports Bush* because he hates gays, blacks, jews, mexicans, and social liberals more than he can ever hate empire....

He was also one of those in the forefront of pimping the Swift Boat Liars calumny against John Kerry...

[AuntiBush]

101. WOW!

Now, finally some "one" in the media is saying it for what it is! Am I dreaming here? I have to check this out later. Thank you for the heads-up post! Shew... in shock.

[Blue-Jay]

102. Agreeing with Buchanan makes me puke in my mouth a little bit.

However - Good job Pat. You told the truth, you weirdo racist xenophobic pile of crap.

[izzybeans]

116. me too...gag, gurgle, gurgle

That's a pretty bitter pill to swallow when PB sounds reasonable-even if he came to a reasonable conclusion about Israel from his anti-semitism. The world has somehow inverted itself. I fear the impending collective nose dive.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

105. It's nice to see G.E Russert SHUT UP and let the TRUTH be told for once!

[Shredr]

106. Will it re-air?

Thanks for posting this. It's jaw-dropping. I'd love to see the interview, anyone know if it's going to air again?

[GiovanniC]

107. I Don't Think So

It usually airs on Sunday morning and then around 10pm on MSNBC. I don't know of any other time it re-airs, but it might be online somewhere.

[alcuno]

108. CNBC re-airs MTP. I think it's either Mon or Tues night.

[Kimber Scott]

111. Why, oh why, did he vote for Bush? nt

[UTUSN]

112. I Knew Not What I Wrought, However I Will Say This

That there are elephants-in-the-room, meaning SPECIFICALLY this:

That I am a mainstream Dem. I grew up doing all things Dem, from parents and grandparents Dem. I loved Hubert HUMPHREY and Harry S (no period) TRUMAN.

That said, I will vote Dem FOREVER. I voted for McGOVERN, DUKAKIS, (and my favorite) whatsisname.

WILSON was my hero in 7th grade, where I ON MY OWN read a 7Volume biography, and loved the League of Nations, then I loved Eleanor and FDR and the United Nations.

Now I learn that Neo-Cons have pre-empted WILSON and have sprung out of a good Dem Scoop JACKSON and have PLUNGGED US INTO HELL.

I used to love ALL DEMS and now I detest Scoop JACKSON and his ASSHOLE DEM staff.

I grew up worshipping Israel, TREASURING Israel, as a MAINSTREAM DEM. Guess what, I BELIEVE that Palestinians deserve their own country. Guess what, what I have seen of Israel is that the EXTREMES turn into EACH OTHER, that I think that Iraeli-ness is not that different from Nazi-ness. You have LOST me, Israel. And as for radical Islam, you never had me. I'll give back the arithmeick numbers. OR WHATEVER. A POX on BOTH your DAMNED HOUSES-------O.K.???????

[Hatalles]

113. Rec'd.