NOW Endorsed The Wrong Candidate

[Larkspur]

My Op Ed that was published in Sunday's Sep &, 2003 Hartford Courant
http://www.ctnow.com/hc-now0907.artsep07,1,4354877.story

It took a while to find the web link.

In 1991, the unexpected death of Gov. Richard Snelling thrust Lt. Gov. Howard Dean into Vermont's chief executive office. A $60 million deficit, the worst bond rating in New England and the worst recession since the Great Depression greeted the new governor.

But a dozen years later, on the day that Dean appeared at the 2003 convention of the National Organization for Women, the Associated Press reported that Vermont was one of the few states with a state budget surplus. Dean, by then a former six-term governor, was credited with this achievement.

The month before the NOW convention, I attended an American Association of University Women convention, where I met Gloria Steinem. Her eyes lighted up when she saw my "Howard Dean for America" button. "Are you from Vermont?" she asked.

"No," I replied, "I'm from Connecticut, but I'm supporting him for president."

Gloria tapped my button, pointed her finger at it and said, "Howard Dean is a good man, and we need to wear our political buttons and paraphernalia more now than ever before." That was not a formal endorsement, just a spontaneous reaction.
<SNIP>

My fellow Connecticut NOW members are disappointed in National NOW's endorsement. We wanted to form a Connecticut NOW for Dean group, but we now have to devise another strategy.

[Atlant]

1. If it was written by you, you can publish the *WHOLE* thing here.

If it was written by you, you can publish the *WHOLE* thing here
(unless, in submitting it to the Courant, you explicitly signed-
away your copyright(s)).

This is especially apropos since only registered Courant
readers can view your link.

Atlant

[sangh0]

2. Who did NOW endorse?

.

[TSIAS]

3. Carol Moseley Braun

[sangh0]

9. What's wrong with Braun?

I'm guessing that the initial poster thinks that Dean has better positions on women's issue than Braun does, but I don't see one word about the issue in the first post. If someone is trying to convince people that Dean's position is better than Braun's, then someone is doing an awful job of it.

[MoonGod]

19. What's wrong with Braun? Answer...

... she's not Howard Dean. Some people on here seem to think that anybody that's not their guy or gal is the "wrong" one.

I'd rather see us all just support whoever our favorite is and recognize the fact that whoever wins the nomination becomes the de facto "right" one to take on Bush.

[Atlant]

29. Your calculation *MUST* include "ability to defeat Bush".

> I'd rather see us all just support whoever our favorite is and
> recognize the fact that whoever wins the nomination becomes the de
> facto "right" one to take on Bush.

Your calculation MUST include "ability to defeat Bush". Otherwise,
I would probably be my favorite presidential candidate, and I
could probably even muster up three or four votes for me in the
New Hampshire primary.

Atlant

[sangh0]

36. What are you talking about?

I don't care what YOUR criteria is. What's NOW's criteria?

[liberalnurse]

4. Nice story.....

Brings a smile to my face. :)

[Cha]

5. So who is NOW endorsing?

[MoonGod]

6. As stated above, Carol Mosely Braun... here's a link:

http://www.now.org/press/08-03/08-26.html

[Cha]

16. Oh, I remember now, of course, but I didn't see it "above" ...

I didn't want to register.

Thank you!

[MoonGod]

17. Hehe... by "above" I mean post #3 by TSIAS

:)

[Larkspur]

7. Here's the rest of my op ed

During her speech, Steinem told us about a famous abolitionist who called himself a "woman's man." At the 1848 Seneca Falls convention on women's rights, this man had supported a women's suffrage resolution that appeared doomed to fail until he spoke up. "There can be no reason in the world for denying to woman the exercise of the elective franchise ... Our doctrine is that `right is of no sex,'" Frederick Douglass said.

His eloquence swayed the opponents at the convention, and the suffrage resolution passed. The women's suffrage movement was born.

Douglass' spirit works through all men who promote gender equity. Dean is one of those men. Dr. Dean served on the board of Northern New England Planned Parenthood. As governor, he appointed more women to positions of leadership than any of his peers in other states. As a presidential candidate, he has bravely denounced the partial birth abortion bill as a right-wing tactic to undermine all legal forms of abortion. On the campaign trail, Dean advocates using the power of the presidency to help empower women in developing countries because such women are more likely to produce peaceful middle-class societies.

Recently, the National Organization for Women endorsed Carol Moseley Braun for president. I'm inspired by her intelligence, wit and articulate speech, but Carol Moseley Braun hasn't shown me the criteria I'm looking for in a president today.

Thanks to President Bush's arrogance, greed and reckless adventures abroad, this country is heading toward a series of crises that we haven't seen since the Depression. In these tumultuous times, NOW would have been wiser to have endorsed a "woman's man," Howard Dean, and not a woman for president.

Teresa M. Barton is the webmaster for the Connecticut chapter of the National Organization for Women and sits on its board. She was the host for the Sept. 3 Norwichtown Mall Meetup with Jim Dean, the presidential candidate's brother. She is a member of Killingly's Democratic Town Committee.

Registering with the Courant is FREE. You may want to do it if you are interested in how Lieberman's home newspapers cover him and his battle with Dean. Jim Dean, Howard's brother, lives in Fairfield county and he's leading the Connecticut for Dean campaign.

[Atlant]

12. Thank you (for posting *AND* for writing). That was wonderful! (NT)

[sangh0]

15. That's all well and good

but where's the comparison between Dean and Braun to show that Dean's position on women's issues are better than Braun's?

Dean is one of those men.

And Braun is one of those PERSONS - tie

Dr. Dean served on the board of Northern New England Planned Parenthood.

And Braun? - Silence

As governor, he appointed more women to positions of leadership than any of his peers in other states

It sounds as if "any of his peers" might refer to Governors. Braun is not a Governor. I don't care if Dean is better than Jeb Bush.

As a presidential candidate, he has bravely denounced the partial birth abortion bill as a right-wing tactic to undermine all legal forms of abortion

And Braun's position on PBA?

Dean advocates using the power of the presidency to help empower women in developing countries because such women are more likely to produce peaceful middle-class societies.

Leaving aside the empty rhetoric of "using the power of the presidency" (HOW will he use that power? WHAT EXACTLY will he DO?) and "empower women" (again, HOW? and WHAT EXACTLY?), you do nothing to compare these positions to Braun, leaving the readers unable to compare the two.

[Larkspur]

33. There was not enough space to do a one-to-one PT counter PT

and that was not the gist of my argument, which is that Dean's record as governor of taking a state from fiscal crisis to one of balanced budgets and surplus far exceeds Braun's political service record. She was a one-term senator, who was wrongly smeared, but she could not defeat that smear tactic, so how would she handle Rove now?

Dean has experience in an executive office, Braun does not. Dean won re-election 5 times, and the last one was his toughest. He faced oppoents from both sides of the political spectrum and defeated them. As I said before, Braun was a one-term senator.

As far as PBA? Dean risked his budding Prez bid by publicly attacking PBA's opponents and their arguments. The others haven't been as strong publicly as Dean in defending abortion. I'm sure that Rove will use it against him in the general election, but unlike Braun, Dean knows how to parry Rove's and the Repukes' smear machine.

Regarding Dean's statement about helping empower women abroad, that was one of the constant themes in his stump speech. Like Fredrick Douglas, Dean has supported women's rights and when he could Dean has put women in leadership positions. Women also have to put themselves in a position to be chosen.

And most importantly, Dean started his campaign last year with $150,000 and a very small staff. He is now the front runner. Braun started late and has not grown much. It's not because she is a woman and and African American that she is struggling, there are 7 men, some of whom are better financed than she, who are struggling also. No, it's because her campaigning is basically nonexistent. She does well in the debates and prepared speeches, but I'm unimpressed by her Prez compaigning.

[sangh0]

37. Huh?

What does Dean's budgetary experience have to do with NOW's endorsement?

If Dean's budgetary experience does have something to do with NOW, then why didn't you say so in your article?

Dean has experience in an executive office

So you think only Governors can be POTUS?

And what does that have to do with NOW? Does NOW only endorse those with executive experience? I thought not.

As far as PBA? Dean risked his budding Prez bid by publicly attacking PBA's opponents and their arguments. The others haven't been as strong publicly as Dean in defending abortion. I'm sure that Rove will use it against him in the general election, but unlike Braun, Dean knows how to parry Rove's and the Repukes' smear machine.

Still nothing about Braun in comparison? I'm not surprised

Regarding Dean's statement about helping empower women abroad, that was one of the constant themes in his stump speech. Like Fredrick Douglas, Dean has supported women's rights and when he could Dean has put women in leadership positions. Women also have to put themselves in a position to be chosen.

Again:

a) no comparison to Braun
b) No detail on what Dean is going to actually do besides empty rhetorical promise of "empower women abroad"

BTW, wtf do you mean by "Women also have to put themselves in a position to be chosen"?

[maxomai_vs_rove]

8. Nitpick

IIRC, Dean is the former five-term Governor of Vermont, not six-term.

I think Mosley Braun is a poor candidate for President, mostly because she lost her 1998 re-election bid under a cloud of scandal.

Dean has the best record on abortion rights of all the Democrats. I hope NOW steps up for him after Mosley Braun leaves the race.

[Larkspur]

34. Actually, he is a 6-term governor. He finished Snelling's term

Richard Snelling died a year into his 5th term as governor. Dean took over in 1991 and faced his first election bid as governor in 1992. He was officially elected Gov on his own merits in 1992 and re-elected in 1994, 1996, 1998, and 2000

[Uzybone]

10. so whats wrong

with NOW endorsing Mosely Braun. I prefer her positions to Deans. the only problem with her is she has no chance to win. I dont think NOW endorsing her will make members who were gonna vote for another candidate now vote for someone who cant win.

[KoKo]

11. Why is it a problem that NOW endorsed Moseley-Braun?

It shouldn't mean that you feel compelled to vote for her.....if you prefer Dean. I'm glad that she's in the debates and if she got some money to keep in their because of the NOW endorsement then what's wrong with that.

She's a fine candidate. She should be supported and heard. Without the endorsement she might not have been able to continue and show that a smart, gracious female can hold her own against 8 men. :shrug:

[Freddie Stubbs]

13. They will have a second chance

After Braun drops out, they can endorse Dean

[Atlant]

14. Must Connecticut NOW follow the national lead?

> My fellow Connecticut NOW members are disappointed in National NOW's
> endorsement. We wanted to form a Connecticut NOW for Dean group, but
> we now have to devise another strategy.


Must Connecticut NOW follow the national lead (either by some rule or
by "the spirit of the situation")? Or could you still form your group,
either as Connecticut NOW endorsing Dean or as a number of CT NOW
members who have formed a Special Interest Group, explicitly
allowing for the possibility for other CT NOW members to form other
SIGs endorsing other candidates?

Atlant

[Larkspur]

23. No, Connecticut NOW can not officially endorse Dean at this point

As individuals we can support Dean or we can form another group for Dean, i.e. CT Feminists for Dean or CT Women for Dean, but we can't use NOW in association with Dean at this point. Our executive director, who attended the NOW Prez forum, said that Dean won the NOW debate hands down and because she spends most of her time doing CT NOW's business, she is PO'd that she can't work for Dean during her regular work hours for Connecticut NOW.

We're having a board meeting tomorrow and this topic will come up.

I'll keep you posted on what we decided to do.

[Atlant]

26. Thanks!

> We're having a board meeting tomorrow and this topic will come up.
>
> I'll keep you posted on what we decided to do.

Thanks!

Atlant

[gottaB]

41. The Forum

and others said Braun was best. But that wasn't the reason she was chosen.

[Mairead]

18. NOW endorsed exactly the right candidate

Of the available candidates, they could not have made a better choice. I wish they had endorsed Dennis instead, but he doesn't deserve it. Carol does, she got it, and I can't help but think it's mean and petty not to acknowledge how appropriate their endorsement of her is.

[Atlant]

20. NOW loses political capital...

NOW loses political capital when it gives an endorsement to someone
who "can't pay it back" and witholds an endorsement from someone
who could.

That's political pragmatism, an unpopular commodity in many parts
of the progressive community.

Atlant

[Mairead]

22. Could it possibly be that quid wasn't part of their calculus?

[Atlant]

24. Then they're fools. They are a POLITICAL LOBBYING organization. (NT)

If the potential "Payback" (benefits for their members) was not a part
of their calculations, then they are fools. NOW is a POLITICAL LOBBYING
organization, not a sewing circle.

Atlant

[Mairead]

28. Do you really think that they're going to be ignored?

Do you really think that their giving the endorsement to CMB will cause them to be rebuffed by an eventual non-CMB nominee?

[Atlant]

31. Yes, it will certainly diminish their clout.

> Do you really think that their giving the endorsement to CMB will
> cause them to be rebuffed by an eventual non-CMB nominee?

Yes, it will certainly diminish their clout.

How much? Who knows. But the diminshment will certainly be non-zero.

As I've said before, I left NH-NARAL when they endorsed several
Republicans who were "more-correct" on their one issue (than the
INCUMBENT Democratic candidates) but bad news on every other
issue I cared about including all other "women's" issues.

I don't think many Republicans signed up to replace my donation
to NH-NARAL, 'cause they kept calling me pleading poor-mouth and
I kept explaining to them why I'd never donate a single dollar to
them again.

Endorsements (and political capital) work like that.

Atlant

[Mairead]

32. Apples and oranges

Not endorsing (say) Kucinich is not going to reduce their access to Kucinich in the WH. Perhaps it would with someone like LBJ or Nixon, but not everyone has such a big, fragile ego. NOW is going to go right on being a Very Important Organisation and one that must be reckoned with.

[DemBones DemBones]

21. The National Organization for Women Endorsed a Woman --

imagine that! I think it's great that they did, even though she "doesn't have a chance." No woman will ever be president as long as that type of attitude persists.

Carol Braun is the first woman to run for the presidency since Shirley Chisholm did in 1967-68. Chisholm, another brave black woman, was mocked for daring to enter the race. Braun has been treated a bit better. She's very positive, very articulate, and holds positions I agree with. She's my second choice in the race.

I don't see how NOW could have ignored Braun's candidacy without implying that they were the National Organization of SOME Women. And they can endorse another candidate if and when Braun bows out.

Maybe AAUW will endorse Dean, since they've allowed male members for years. I quit AAUW over that because they still refuse to allow women without university degrees to belong. I think the American Association of University Women should be more inclusive of non-university women (particularly older women who grew up at a time when many families would not send daughters to college) rather than explanding its "inclusiveness" to include non-women, considering that one of its goals is about expanding women's educational opportunities. They've excluded some terriffic, self-educated women who could have been great for AAUW.

[Mairead]

25. I'm not a member of AAUW for broadly {pi} that same reason, DB

There's a certain amount of that cringing elitism in several women's professional organisations. I find it ugly and distasteful.

[Atlant]

27. NOW allows men as well.

> Maybe AAUW will endorse Dean, since they've allowed male members for years.

NOW allows (has always allowed?) men to join. It's the "National
Organization FOR Women", not "OF" Women.

Atlant

[Mairead]

30. Recalibrate your sarcasm detector, I should.

[Larkspur]

35. Allowing women without college degress defeats the purpose of

having University in their group name -- American Associate of University Women.

Groups like NOW and the Feminist Majority are open to all women, whether they have degress or not.

I belong to NOW, AAUW, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, and Feminist Majority.

[gottaB]

38. I'm disappointed

That you haven't substantially developed any of the points you made when this news first came out. Discussions here and here, and another one from GD by Cheswick I think about why Women Duers should support Moseley Braun--I can't seem to locate it.

Anyway, you've not added much to your criticism, except the fact that Steinem fancies Dean. Gandy sounds far more persuasive, and you're ducking the core issue raised by Sangh0 in this thread, not to mention the affirmative action argument.

[Larkspur]

40. And you need to learn how to read

The point about my Op Ed is that just because Braun is a woman does not qualify her for president or NOW's endorsement. Dean has a much better record in governance and in winning elections than Braun has. Dean also has proven to me that he has those innate skills and judgment calls that can turn a disaster into a boon. That is what is really needed in the Democratic Prez candidate for 2004 because Bush is leading this country into DISASTER.

I'll support a woman for president who proves to me that she can do the job and orchestrate a winning campaign. Braun's campaigning is terrible and she does not have a strong record in political office.

If we want a woman to be president, than NOW should encourage and train more women to run for governorships in every state. That's the best way for women to develope the executive experienced needed to prepare for the White House. It's worked for the men, it can work for the women.

[gottaB]

43. I read just fine thank you

like I'm reading now that you're changing your argument. You inititially said "I'm inspired by her intelligence, wit and articulate speech," but you didn't say "just because Braun is a woman does not qualify her for president." I think Braun has as much if not more qualifications and experience than Dean, and certainly has the qualifications necessary to win NOW's endorsement.

Can you say "Just because Braun is an intelligent women with all the necessary qualifications for office and a proven record of fighting for women, NOW made the wrong decision." That would leave your argument that she can't run a campaign. That's specious, of course. Your lack of support isn't a valid reason for not supporting her. She *is* running a campaign. Right now. She won the support of NOW and others, and if she can't win yours, it's not because she's not a feminist or not qualified or not running a campaign.

The argument about governors is specious too. I'll leave it at that.

[Larkspur]

50. He's something to consider...

Dean started his campaign last year with $150,000, a small office, a small support staff, and even by his own standards, with a very little chance of succeeding to win the Democratic nomination. By 2nd QTR 2003, he led the fundraising battle, and this quarter he became the front runner in polls in 3 states -- Iowa, New Hampshire, and California. Considering that there are 7 other guys, 3 of whom had more name recognition and ability to raise more cash than Dean, one has to admit, that Dean didn't succeed via the good ol' boys network. He earned it.

Braun started her campaign this year, and yes, with seed money less than Dean's, but she hasn't shown me the same innovative and assertive campaign strategy that Dean has. Yes, I like her and want to see her back in power, but not as president. I wanted her to win her senate seat back.

Bill Clinton proved that he was a very capable politician when he retook the Arkansas governorship after loosing it to a Republican.

Dean proved that he was a capable politician when he won 5 re-election bids as governor, including his last, which was the most difficult and dangerous for him. Due to tempers flaring over the Civil Unions bill, He had to wear a bulletproof vest when campaigning. Dean proved to me over the Civil Unions bill battle that he had the political courage to do the right thing, even if it meant losing power. He also proved to me that he could take a losing situation and still win. That's a skill that Braun and the other 7 candidates have yet to show me.

Winning is important in politics because without it you can't hold office. NOW should have considered that quality in a politician as well as positions on women's issues.

[gottaB]

52. I'm sure that they considered Braun's 15 electoral victories

along with everything else.

You portray Dean as the inevitable nominee. That's yet to be decided, and since there's still a choice, NOW did the wise thing and endorsed Braun. The truth is that at least nine candidates (including Bush) aren't going to win this one. You're committed to Dean's campaign, and that's good, but it does mean that you're view of what's in the best interests of NOW is biased.

[Larkspur]

53. They should have also looked more closely at the strength of Dean's

campaign.

Promoting women's issues is NOW'S businness, and doing so is not a woman's only affair. Men like Fredrick Douglas and Howard Dean are proof of that.

Braun's campaign strategy isn't doing anything for her or for NOW's issues. Braun's campaign will reenforce the idea that women can't win the White House, and that will just make it harder for the woman who one day will be qualified to be president.

[gottaB]

54. a new twist?

Braun's campaign will make it harder for women? Oh boy, I think you're going off the deep end. Your logic is leading to the conclusion that the best course of action for feminists would be to wait for a woman to win the presidency before supporting her. You know Braun's argument: If not now, when?

Braun's campaign strategy not doing anything for her or NOW's issues? Either you're ignorant of Braun's campaign, or your fervent devotion to Dean allows you to say untrue things. Or is it something else? Anyway, this is textbook rationalization. Outside of the confines of your psyche, it's not very convincing.

Look, if you want to be a Feminist for Dean, CT, or whatever, that's not objectionable imo--even though of course there is a better feminist running for the nomination. But when you take to badmouthing Braun and NOW, that's uncalled for. It's worse than sour grapes.

[Larkspur]

57. No what I want is a woman to PREPARE herself for the Presidency

the best way to do that is to become governor of a state, prove that you can manage the state's affairs well and prove that you can command convincingly and successfully the state's resources during emergencies.

Braun has not shown me that she can be a good executive.

[sangh0]

58. I'm still waiting

It's quite revealing, IMO, that you are either unable or unwilling to do any sort of comparison between Dean's positions on women's issues and Braun's.

Even more revelaing is that, in your desperation, you are now inventing criteria (ie. how prepared for the Presidency) that NOW does not use, and that you did not mention until AFTER you had mentioned several other reason first, like:

1) Dean gives you confidence
2) You think Dean won the debate
3) Your friends think Dean won the debate

And still no comparison concerning women's issues.

[Larkspur]

60. First, it's Braun's duty to do the persuasion, not mine

I went to her web site www.moseley-braun.org and could NOT FIND a link to her positions on issues. Dean has them. Where's Braun's?

And my support of a President is not just on women's issues alone. There are other issues and character traits that intersect with women's issues that I look at.

My main criteria for President is GOOD JUDGMENT and Dean has that ability down pat.

Planning ahead is definitely a major character trait need in a leader of the caliber of a President of the world's only superpower. Dean made his announcement in June when no one else did and went on in 2 weeks to win the 2nd QTR fundraising battle. Braun has yet to formerly announce and she entered late to begin with anyway.

Another main criteria -- Political courage and a habit of making correct decisions. His stance on the Iraq war was both wise and correct and he displayed political courage in maintaining that stance when the polls were at 70% approval rating and his critics called his stance political suicide. His support for gay civil unions, which is also a NOW issue, when he was Governor of Vermont also showed that he can make and stick by tough decisions 6 months before re-election and WIN that re-election even when facing opposition from both sides of the political spectrum. Let's see Braun lost her senate re-election bid and while yes, she was unfairly smeared, it showed that she didn't have a strategy to deal with it.

Listening to voters plus innovative or creative thinking is important in both a campaign and as president. That along with aggressive effort is how an obscure candidate rises to the top. Dean seized on Democratic voters anger at the Democratic leadership over Iraq and in not standing up to Bush, but unlike McCain, Dean transformed his message of anger into one of hope. That is why Dean is the front runner and the orginal favored front runners -- Kerry, Lieberman, Edwards -- are either slipping or back in the pack in the polls.

It's not enough for Braun to pull the "women should vote for women" BS to convince me to vote for her. She has to demonstrate that she can handle the job of President of the United States, a job that Harry Truman said was like riding a hungry tiger that continually tries to eat you and you have to make that tiger move forward.

What Dean has demonstrated as governor of Vermont and what I think is going to be needed after Bush is booted back to Texas, is the ability to transform a disaster into better times. Dean did that in Vermont. Braun has never done it.

[sangh0]

62. Still waiting

It was *YOU* who made the assertion that Dean's positions on women's issues is better than Braun's, so it is *YOUR* burden to find out what her positions are, not mine.

And my support of a President is not just on women's issues alone.

Who cares? We're talking about NOW's support, not your support.

My main criteria for President is GOOD JUDGMENT

Again, who cares, besides you? We're talking about NOW's criteria, which you didn't seem to have any problem with until they decided to NOT endorse Dean.

Another main criteria -- Political courage and a habit of making correct decisions.

Again, this is NOT about you and your criteria; It's about NOW and it's criteria.

Maybe you should post something about NOW and it's criteria, and Braun and her positions on Women's Issues.

[Larkspur]

66. No, I never said that Dean's position on women was better than Braun's

Just that I thought that Dean was a better qualified Presidential candidate than Braun because of his ability to turn a fiscal disaster in Vermont into a surplus. Braun has not shown me that she can turn disasters or problems into boons. And neither have the other 7 male candidates shown me this quality.

NOW should have considered the WHOLE picture, not just stances on women's issues. It's not enough to support a female candidate for president just because she is female and supports women's rights. It's important to support the best candidate who supports women's rights for President and who has the best possible chance to unseat Bush. NOW should have also considered a candidates ability to attract supporters who can help not only defeat Bush, but change the demographics of Congress to boot out the reichwing ideologues. In this case Howard Dean meets the criteria of a strong proponent of woman's rights, one who can DEFEAT Bush and generate his own coat tails to help make Congress a more women's rights friendly legislature.

[sangh0]

69. I refer you to your own words (post #7)

Douglass' spirit works through all men who promote gender equity. Dean is one of those men. Dr. Dean served on the board of Northern New England Planned Parenthood. As governor, he appointed more women to positions of leadership than any of his peers in other states. As a presidential candidate, he has bravely denounced the partial birth abortion bill as a right-wing tactic to undermine all legal forms of abortion. On the campaign trail, Dean advocates using the power of the presidency to help empower women in developing countries because such women are more likely to produce peaceful middle-class societies.

Even you, early on, recognize the relationship between a candidates position on women's issues and the endorsement from NOW. The idea that NOW would use YOUR criteria, and not it's own, is symptomatic of the Dean supporters overblown sense of entitlement.

Even funnier is your desire to "change the demographics" as if Braun, a BLACK WOMEN, has no chance of doing that.

[Larkspur]

70. You distort my words, sangh0. Shame on you!!

No where in that paragraph do I say that Dean is superior to Braun regarding women's issues. The purpose of that paragraph was to prove that men can fully support women's rights as much as women and therefore, are qualified to win NOW's endorsement, even if they are competing against women for the same position.

If you read my paragraphs previous to this one, I said that it was Fredrick Douglas, a man, a "woman's" man, who saved the woman's suffrage resolution and helped give birth to the woman's suffrage movement. When Elizabeth Cady Stanton proposed that resolution, she met stiff resistance not only from some of the men at the Women's Rights Convention of 1848, but also from women. Lucretia Mott said that a woman's suffrage resolution would make the Women's Rights Convention ridiculous. It was Fredrick Douglas, an African American man, former slave, and great abolitionist, who saved the day for Stanton and all of us women.

Study your womens' rights history, sangh0, before you slander me.

[sangh0]

71. They're your words. They speak for themselves

and in your initial posts about why Dean should've been endorsed you DID refer to Dean's positions on women's issues SEVERAL TIMES, while you only referred to electability once.

[Larkspur]

73. And there is nothing wrong with referring to Dean's position on women's

issues. Your problem is that you bandy semantics more than looking at the point my whole Op Ed was making -- that men can be profeminist and should not lose NOW's endorsement just because they are a man, who happens to have the better campaign than the only female candidate.

Yes, NOW needs to pay attention to candidates positions on women's rights before bestowing their endorsement.

But in these days, when this country is heading towards a disaster of epic proportions, NOW needed to weigh a candidate's ability to win the nomination and election along with their positions on women's rights. What Gloria also said at the AAUW convention was that we can not afford another 4 years of Bush. Bush has to go. Bush is the greatest threat to women's rights.

If Dean's record on women's rights was fascist, I agree with NOW that Dean should not be endorsed, but his record is superb on women's rights, and when he was in a position of power to help or hurt women's advancement, Dean CHOSE to HELP women advance. When NOW made their endorsement, Dean's campaign was and still is surging. Braun's was and still is struggling to take off.

Yes, Braun has an great record on advocating women's issues, but except for her one-term stint as senator, she wasn't in a position to help or hurt women's rights on a scale like Dean, who was a 6 term governor, was.

[sangh0]

74. The point your Op-ed made

was that Dean deserved the NOW endorsement, but you never offered a reasonable argument for that. You started out with how much you liked Dean in the debates, and finally, after several requests from me, you started in with the crap about how Dean is electable, as if that were the only criteria.

Braun has an great record on advocating women's issues, but except for her one-term stint as senator, she wasn't in a position to help or hurt women's rights on a scale like Dean, who was a 6 term governor, was.

That's just dumb. A U.S. Senator influences legislation that applies to the entire US. A Governor, at best, can only influence their own state.

[Larkspur]

75. Sen. Braun was one of 100 senators

As senator, she could only help women nationally if she could get enough other senators to agree with her, and that is a very difficult task on some issues very important to NOW.

Remember, when she lost her senate seat she no longer had that kind of power to help women.

As president she could help women nationally again, but her road to the Presidency is very difficult and she hasn't done anything to increase her electibilty chances, and yes, electibility is a VERY IMPORTANT quality in a Presidential canidate for NOW to consider. If NOW favored candidates can not get elected, than NOW's issues will never get passed. And looking at the current resident in the White House, a president who doesn't support women's rights can do a lot of damage.

Dean favors and has demonstrated admirably his advocacy for women's rights. He is the most electible candidate who supports women's rights. NOW should have endorsed Dean.

And my Op Ed did make a good point about why Dean, a profeminist man, should have NOW's endorsement -- he has that uncanny ability to turn diaster into fortune (at the beginning of the Op Ed)
In 1991, the unexpected death of Gov. Richard Snelling thrust Lt. Gov. Howard Dean into Vermont's chief executive office. A $60 million deficit, the worst bond rating in New England and the worst recession since the Great Depression greeted the new governor.

But a dozen years later, on the day that Dean appeared at the 2003 convention of the National Organization for Women, the Associated Press reported that Vermont was one of the few states with a state budget surplus. Dean, by then a former six-term governor, was credited with this achievement.

Dean entered the Governor's office with an disaster already under way and he proved that he could govern in the Exec Branch effectively and successfully, not only for himself, but for all his citizens. NOW should have considered that this country is heading for diaster in the foreign policy area as well as the domestic front and that spells doom for women's opportunites and economic health.

[gottaB]

64. There's a world of difference between saying women should vote for women

and what Braun says, which is essentially that smart women and men should vote for this smart woman--not just any woman, but Carol Moseley Braun.

Anyway, I did want to clarify one thing. Granted, Moseley Braun's web page doens't do her justice on the issues. There are many reasons for that, but things are improving, so I won't rehash that.

As you know, NOW and the other women's groups who endorsed her were not basing their endorsements on the impressions they gained by surfing the web. Braun took her case directly to them. It was a strong point cited by Roselyn O'Connell when she announced the endorsement by the National Women's Political Caucus. She said, "Moreover, Carol Moseley Braun cared enough about NWPC's support to make her case directly to our convention delegates and Executive Board." You posted on that thread, so I assume you read it.

Moseley Braun has been taking her case to women's groups for about a year now, speaking before women educators, policy makers, and feminist political groups of all kinds. Well, it paid off. You can take that as a sign of successful campaigning, becuase it's better than Chisolm was able to do, and it's better than the other eight Dems have done in that regard.

Of course, many of these people are familiar with Braun's record. Thus when she addresses them, she doesn't need to pander. She's proven her credentials to represent feminist voters. If there are any doubts about that, get thee to thomas and google--or do what normal people are still wont to do and go visit the library.

When you were at Braun's website, did you happen across the speech she gave before American Woman Presidents? Because I happen to think it's a brilliant speech about citizenship which makes clear why that's a feminist issue, and why her campaign should be supported. If you're sincerely wondering why NOW chose her, and how affirmative action played into their decision making, read this speech.

[Larkspur]

67. No, I haven't read her speech. I'll read it later

But it takes more than giving a few good speeches to feminist groups and doing well at debates to show that you are qualified for President of the United States.

Braun is a minor candidate and will continue to be so, and how does that help NOW's goals? She entered the race late, a race with lots of competition, and her campaigning hasn't done anything to put her or NOW's issues in the forefront. She LOST her campaign manager to Dean's Campaign, and Andrea Pringle was willing to be a deputy campaign manager for Dean as opposed to being the primary campaign manager for Braun. That tells me a lot more about Braun's campaign health than the speeches Braun is giving.

No, I still say that NOW would have been wiser endorsing a "woman's man", Howard Dean, who unlike Kerry attended NOW's convention, than a minor league candidate, Braun. I like Braun, but not for President.

[Larkspur]

39. The main reason why NOW should have endorsed Dean

1) He won the debate at NOW. This is according to my fellow CT NOW members who attended the forum.

2) He showed up, whereas, Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, Graham, and Lieberman bypassed it. CT NOW's treasurer talked with Kim Gandy about the endorsement because she was upset that Dean didn't get it. Gandy had told her that the endorsement had really come down between Kerry and Dean, but because both were too close to call a frontrunner at the time, they didn't want to offend either. Braun became the compromise choice. Well, in my opinion, Dean should have automatically gotten the endorsement in this case because he attended the forum and Kerry did not.

3) According to my friends who attended, Dean was the only one who gave an aura that he could govern well and have the best chance to correcting the mess that Bush has got us into. Kucinich was unrealistic. Sharpton was a good comedian, and Braun's assertion that women's groups should only support women for president did not impress my friends, who are deeply worried about where this country is headed.

4) Bush is sending this country into DISASTER and personally, I want a candidate who gives me confidence in his/her leadership ability. Dean is the only one of the 9 who gives that to me.

[sangh0]

44. You're still doing

You keep claiming that Dean is a better choice than Braun, but you don't post anything that can be used to compare the two. The fact that Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, Graham, and Lieberman by passed the NOW debate says NOTHING about the comparison between Dean and Braun. Also, your points #1 & #3 are repetitious (they both make the same point ie. Dean won!) and are not facts. They are opinions, and the opinions of a Dean supporter, and therefor cannot be considered unbiased.

And point #4 is just silly. What Dean does for you, is what Dean does for you. NOW isn't going to make it's decisions based on which candidate gives YOU some confidence.

I'm gonna give you a huge opening now. Can you tell us why you think Dean is a better choice than Braun on women's issues?

[gottaB]

45. Others Say Carol won the debate

Others said Carol was the most impressive. I heard she was going to win the endorsement many months ago.

I'm Sure Dean and Kerry were favorites in New England, but NOW is like a national organization.

[diamondsoul]

46. I think Carol is always impressive!

I think my one negative impression of her (and it isn't really a negative in other contexts) is that she's too nice. In the debates to date she's just been too sweet, and not showing her ability to be tough to me, though she made a move towards that in last night's debate I think.

I suspect she probably won't get the nomination but I sincerely hope she stays in the race for a good long time, and decides to give it another go in 2008 or later.

[Forkboy]

48. That was my take

I thought she was fantastic...and every time I see her I'm more and more impressed.I think NOW picked exactly the right person.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[disgruntella]

47. Please.

www.trollworld.com

[Forkboy]

49. lol

:thumbsup:

[Blue_Chill]

56. I don't like NOW either

They represent the modern feminist movement that no longer strive for equality. They want custody courts more slanted then they currently are, they even published a bullshit study on it. They get college's to allow sexual misconduct alegations without allowing the accuser to be questions 'because it could be traumatic' never mind justice or giving the guy a fair shot at defending himself.

I agree with NOW on many issues but some of what they support is so unfair in my eyes that I simpley ignore them. Thier support means nothing to me.

[indigo32]

51. I frankly think

she very much deserves the nomination and like her more every time I see her

[Atlant]

55. The question remains: Do you want the nomination? Or the Presidency? (NT)

[gottaB]

65. Nothing to see here, move along....

On Edit: Inappropriate question, inappropriate response. It's not something I want to debate at this time.

[Woodstock]

59. Gloria likes Dean!!! She's my hero

Thanks for sharing that.

[Larkspur]

61. Your welcome. She blew me away when she made that statement about Dean.

It was totally unexpected on my part and it motivates me to this day. The day I met Gloria is the day the Dean made his formal announcment. I wonder if she had ever met him. I forgot to ask her.

[gottaB]

63. Yes, she's met him

She's said before she likes Dean--and Braun. And while she always has something good to say about Dean, she never badmouths or dismisses Braun in public. Quite the contrary.

You'd be hard pressed to find a better of exemplar of feminism in national politics.

[Larkspur]

68. I have never bad mouth Braun

Disagreeing the NOW's endorsement is not bashing Braun. Telling the truth about Braun's campaign skills is not bashing Braun.

I have never personally attacked Braun, just her campaign tactics and skills.

[Le Taz Hot]

72. Not surprising and not something to worry about

Speaking strictly pragmatically, Ms. Mosely-Braun will be dropping out of the race, it's just a matter of when. When the field is narrowed, NOW will have to make another endorsement and I think with Dean's record of supporting causes for women and children, he has an excellent chance to receive their endorsement.