My son was called a "cracker" at school today

[LiberalinNC]

should I be angry?

[shoelace414]

1. did he have cheese on his head?

[King Coal]

34. Or a sardine?

[radwriter0555]

70. Cheese-wiz comes out pretty easily and works well as a good

moisturizer!

[Swamp Rat]

158. HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

:D

Cheeeeeeeeeezzzzeeee! Mmmmmmmmm! :9

[Karenina]

401. I smell Limburger... EWWWWW!!!!

OP Mom filing her complaint is simply an object lesson to her son about HIS place in the social hierarchy. Verdalaven, you touched on this aspect. Great post and Welcome to DU (I think... :think: )

This thread is depressing and appalling on so many levels. Ah, the outrage based on such scant information welded to TOTAL DENIAL of the dynamics involved... „Stealth racism“ is SUCH a protection racket.

(My reading of this thread is informed by my experiences being the only black kid in class from 2nd to 11th grade. On play-dates my friends‘ parents would hide me under a blanket on the floorboards until we passed the gatekeepers.)

OP: My son was called a "cracker" at school today should I be angry?

?1. ARE you, in fact, angry? „Should“ is irrelevant. Did your child come home crying?

The young lady that called him that was mad/angry at him. All he did was take the ball the away from her during P.E. class.

?2. ALL HE DID??? Did he overwhelm her with physical force???

29. "she" was causing trouble, and wouldn't give up the ball to allow the others to finish playing 4 square. I'm not saying my kid is perfect, but I wanted other opinions.

?3. Is it a physically rough game? Do you know the rules? Is your son bigger than the girl? Might HE have overstepped a boundary too?

44. I'm not worried about him.
but I am worried about "her" getting away w/ it. I don't want this to continue. To me being called a cracker is just as bad the "n" word. It's extremely offensive - and I'm not discussing it w/ my son any longer. We talked about it, got everything cleared up - and it's over, as far as he is concerned.

?4. Is this about YOU and your perception of yourself as not racist or about your son physically provoking another child at school?

##47. If he's white, the proper response to that kind of hate is to admit he is and tell her to kiss his cracker ass.

But that's only if he doesn't want to rat her out and get a teacher involved in finding out if she even knows what a cracker IS. (K: GOOD QUESTION!)

My guess is that this kid lives with a lot of heavy duty trash talk at home and is just repeating what she hears.##

OP Response to Reply #47
58. BINGO!

We have a winner... I'll be sure to tell that to my son! I love your response!!!! Thanks!

?5. Whatever happened to arranging a meeting with the kids and TALKING? You LOVE the suggetion in #47??? Things that make ya go hmmmm....

18. The definiation of cracker is... the racially charged one and is best understood after carefully considering all previous definitions as to how it evolved.
Cracker is also a Black name for whites, especially those thought to be racists.

9. I agree! I've written the Principle stating I want to file an official complaint.

?6. See question 4.

50. Let's just say this isn't the first time she has done this.
She has called other students this name and has gotten away w/ it. I want it on record that my son was called this just incase she does it again. I see you're a defense lawyer, so you can understand having "everything" on record. CYA

22. Yes the young are ignorant at times... I'm in Cary, NC.

?7. Are you certain the child attaches all the meanings to „cracker“ that YOU DO??? I used to think it meant whites were the color of Saltines!!!

NOW FOR MORE INFORMATION:

101. I live in Cary and all of the blacks in Cary schools are bused in from...
poor areas in Raleigh because there are so few blacks in Cary, they have to bus them in from Raleigh to meet their racial quotas.
My son is black and attends a public Cary middle school and there is a LOT of racism in the school systems here. Cary is heavily Repuke.

128. African Americans make up a whopping 6% of Cary's population
Whites make up 83%

AND WAY, WAY, WAY DOWNTHREAD

Tomee450 sums the sorry situation up well...

217. The sad thing about this is that that white mother's complaint will likely cause problems for the black child. A black mother's complaint would not have the same effect for a white child. The black student is likely to be branded and treated differently by teachers and the principal. I've seen this before. A black child misbehaves and that misbehavior becomes part of his record. He is also more likely to be suspended. The white student misbehaves and his parents get a call from the principal to come in to discuss the matter. The white child is allowed to stay in school. If this young black girl suffers repercussions, she will likely feel distrustful and resentful of whites and this will linger for a long time. I can imagine what made that child behave as she did. Here was a white boy taking a ball from her. She probably thought he did that to her simply because she was black and acted because of that belief. Many black children experience racism in gym classes and on the playground.

[donheld]

431. This whole thread has Limbaugh written all over it.

The bloody idea that cracker is equal to ANY other racial slur is just plain absurd. This whole thread has just blown my mind. I hate it, but i smell a whole lot of racism in this thread.

I'll repeat what i said in post #334

"In my 45 years of life nobody has ever called me a cracker and if they did, i'd say "so what." It's like hitting me with a wet noodle. We all know blacks start being called the N word from a very early age. For them it is more like being hit upside the head with a stick."

Click here to go back to the main forums.

[Tomee450]

437. I am greatly surprised

that some of the sentiments expressed here are from people who believe themselves to be progressives. Some of the comments are no different from what one would find at a very conservative right wing forum.

[donheld]

446. You're exactly correct. It's sad.

[Tomee450]

436. I couldn't agree more.

The outrage shown in some of the posts is shocking. It is truly sad that people cannot see the advantages that whites have in this society. How anyone can equate the word cracker to that other word used against blacks is beyond me. It seems that many people simply want to ignore the history of the treatment of blacks in this country.
The little black child will probably have a lot of problems at that school because this mother lodged a complaint. It should have been handled differently.

Something sad is happening at DU. We seem to have been infiltrated by people who feel that whites are the ones being oppressed. How they can think that is beyond me. The last time I looked, most of the powerful individuals, those who make and enforce laws, have white skin.

I must confess I have been quite disheartened by some of the comments I've read.

[Swamp Rat]

438. Ja Karenina! Ich stimme zu... dieses ist dumm!... Ein großes Bier, bitte!

:D

:toast:

In München steht ein Hofbräuhaus, oans, zwoa, g'suffa!
Mit 'm Weiz'n kummst aus'm Soacha ned raus, weida g'suffa!
Doch an Church ziagt's nach Goschta Riga fuat, weit zum laffa.
De best'n Wünsch', und mach's guat!! Und mia saffa,
auf Dei Woih jetz no a Mass und wünsch'n Dir: Vui Spaß!

:toast:

[Karenina]

469. Ich hab' mich fast tot gelacht!!

Hab' Dich Lieb! :loveya: :toast:

[kwassa]

454. A good sum up of the discussion here

and I think the original poster asked the question with the answer already in her own mind. I don't detect much openmindedness here.

[HamdenRice]

458. This thread is truly depressing ...

Thanks K for the summary. I don't know where to begin or whether it is worth the energy. But maybe the most apalling thing many of the posters assert is that "cracker" is somehow equivalent to the N word. Here is the entry from the racial slurs data base that explains the derivation of cracker:

This term is said to have originated in England before the 16th century, refering to the lower class whose diet primarily consisted of "crackers", actually biscuits. Many of their descendants were sent to the Georgia penal colony, hence "Georgia crackers." White people had invented this name for themselves before the first slave was brought to America, although it is still in use today by mostly older blacks referring to whites. Was probably redefined in the days of American slavery by the slavemaster's "Crack" of the whip.

http://www.rsdb.org/

It continues to be a word that white people as well as black people use to reflect class differences as much as a word older blacks have used to refer to a southern white person's "poorness" or "crudeness" rather than simply to his race. I have always understood "cracker" in black parlance to mean "racist" and that's the way it is used to movies and literature. So the girl probably viewed the boys violence as racially motivated.

<edited>

[Karenina]

468. I understand and share your frustration.

American whites FREAK OUT, particularly if they consider themselves progressive, when their ingrained racism is pointed out to them. The usual response is to deny and attempt to DICTATE DEFINITIONS.

The IRONIC thing is the word "cracker" in the MTV generation has MORPHED! WORLDWIDE!!! My son's boss referred to himself as one and I just doubled over laughing. His partner is African/Canadian, has surely called him that (with love) and he wears the moniker with pride. LOL!!!

The 2 points that SO DISTURB ME in this discussion are

1) NO ONE is DEFENDING name-calling among children in and of itself.

2) Outraged whites are studiously avoiding the issue of physical aggression, because the REAL ISSUE is POWER.

[Misunderestimator]

480. Another nail on the head, Karenina.

No faux-progressive likes having their racism pointed out to them or their power taken from them.

Wonderful post above!

[ultraist]

464. Excellent summary Karenina!

I knew immediately, before it was noted, that this was in reference to a black female. The "how dare this child" attitude was telling.

Had it been a black MALE, the response would have included a feeling of feeling physically threatened. The white code I see frequently in this community is: Black women should "know their place" and Black males are "dangerous." This attitude, that still prevails today, can be traced back to earlier myths about blacks, "Black males will rape our white women and Black females are hostile, attitudey bitches."

To me, this line says it all: "All he did was take the ball the away from her during P.E. class."

"All he did," mimimizes and justifies the fact that physical force was used. There is NO DISCUSSION about this. In other words, this behavior is allowed and accepted since it is being used by a white person against a Black person.

The focus is on punishing the victim (the Black girl) who merely reacted by name calling, using a vernacular term. The discussion spiraled from there to further deny facets of racism (the word "nigger" is just as bad as the word cracker).

That is simply a ridiculous idea. Having been lived in FL, I heard this vernacular term used frequently and it refers to class more than anything. Upper income whites use it to refer to low income whites. It's often used in an endearing manner. Lawton Chiles often refers to himself as a cracker in attempt to connect with the white working class. It is not a racial slur and does not carry any connotations of violence. This was a cloaked way to deny that a power differentiation exists. Therefore, on some level, this line of reasoning is a means to deny racism exists.

I was both outraged and disheartened to see so many jump on the lynching bandwagon. I've seen this on other threads too. Group lynchings provide the participants with a sense of power, accompanied by adrenalin rushes. They can be addictive for some and this may be one of the few ways they experience a sense of power.

The dynamics of group lynchings parallel those of fundies lynchings of "Godless" heathens. It is a cult like behavior. One group creates a false superiority/power over another and actively degrades the lesser group (the sinners). Racial lynchings are exceptionally dangerous because the superiority/power is not false but a reality of our society.

It's about the quest to maintain power. Sadly, insight, compassion and understanding are are not possible when engaging in these quests and even children are demonized.

Excerpts from: Martin Luther King's Letter from Birmingham Jail 1963

Lamentably, it is an historical fact that privileged groups seldom give up their privileges voluntarily. Individuals may see the moral light and voluntarily give up their unjust posture; but, as Reinhold Niebuhr has reminded us, groups tend to be more immoral than individuals.

We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct-action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant 'Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

We have waited for more than 340 years for our constitutional and God-given rights. The nations of Asia and Africa are moving with jetlike speed toward gaining political independence, but we stiff creep at horse-and-buggy pace toward gaining a cup of coffee at a lunch counter. Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging dark of segregation to say, "Wait." But when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen hate-filled policemen curse, kick and even kill your black brothers and sisters; when you see the vast majority of your twenty million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society; when you suddenly find your tongue twisted and your speech stammering as you seek to explain to your six-year-old daughter why she can't go to the public amusement park that has just been advertised on television, and see tears welling up in her eyes when she is told that Funtown is closed to colored children, and see ominous clouds of inferiority beginning to form in her little mental sky, and see her beginning to distort her personality by developing an unconscious bitterness toward white people; when you have to concoct an answer for a five-year-old son who is asking: "Daddy, why do white people treat colored people so mean?"; when you take a cross-county drive and find it necessary to sleep night after night in the uncomfortable corners of your automobile because no motel will accept you; when you are humiliated day in and day out by nagging signs reading "white" and "colored"; when your first name becomes "nigger," your middle name becomes "boy" (however old you are) and your last name becomes "John," and your wife and mother are never given the respected title "Mrs."; when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro, living constantly at tiptoe stance, never quite knowing what to expect next, and are plagued with inner fears and outer resentments; when you no forever fighting a degenerating sense of "nobodiness" then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait. There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair. I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience.

[Karenina]

470. Girlfriend, YOU are sooo ONTO IT!!!

:loveya:

[ultraist]

471. Thanks!

And to your wisdom: :toast:

[Swamp Rat]

476. KaPOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:nuke: You nailed it!!!

ultraist, I suggest you start a new thread starting with this post.:)

:yourock:

[Misunderestimator]

481. "freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded"

and it's a damn shame that even after such "freedom" is given, it must still be demanded over and over and over.

[firebee]

244. He should've replied with "HONKY!!!"

[cheezus]

246. no kidding, if you're going to insult white people at least do it right

[firebee]

248. No... reverse psychology...

If someone black calls someone white "cracker" and someone white calls replies to the black by calling him a "Honky" or a "Redneck", it kind of berates the insult. Same can be said the other way around... If a white calls a black "N!G%ER" and the black replies with "Coon" or "Jungle Bunny", it berates the insult.

Essentially, you make people feel really stupid when they're insult is a joke.

[Megahurtz]

475. That's just too funny

LOL!!!

:7

[mattclearing]

2. Was it in a hateful way? n/t

[LiberalinNC]

Yes it was!

The young lady that called him that was mad/angry at him. All he did was take the ball the away from her during P.E. class.

[mattclearing]

11. Perhaps he could have asked for the ball?

Doesn't excuse it, but it's not very nice to take things without asking.

[LiberalinNC]

29. "she" was causing trouble, and wouldn't give up the ball

to allow the others to finish playing 4 square.

I'm not saying my kid is perfect, but I wanted other opinions.

[mattclearing]

36. Like I said, it doesn't excuse it.

The main question is whether your making a big deal out of it will help or hurt your son in the long run.

Personally, I'd hope your son can handle himself against this brat.

[LiberalinNC]

44. I'm not worried about him.

but I am worried about "her" getting away w/ it. I don't want this to continue. To me being called a cracker is just as bad the "n" word. It's extremely offensive - and I'm not discussing it w/ my son any longer. We talked about it, got everything cleared up - and it's over, as far as he is concerned.

[DrWeird]

48. "cracker" is bad as the word "nigger"?

Good lord.

[ultraist]

64. Exactly! cracker is not as bad as the word "nigger"

Put it into a realistic context, please.

Whites have used the term "cracker" for decades to denote whites that live in cracker box style (an architectual style) houses. The term WAS NOT a racial slur to promote slavery and lynchings. Whites have not been subjected to racism on a large scale basis and systemically oppressed as blacks have.

I'd let it go.

[jswordy]

72. I beg to differ. I can use your exact argument

Blacks call each other nigger all the time, therefore it in current usage is not a racial slur. Right?

Sorry, both terms are derogatory. Cracker in current connotation carries negatives, just as nigger does. It all depends on the usage, of either term.

Double standards need not apply. If a word's usage is hurtful, it is hurtful.

[DrWeird]

75. "nigger" isn't a racist slur?

Why don't you test that hypothesis.

Sure, "cracker" contains negative connotations. So does "fatty fatty two by four", but you don't compare that to "nigger" now do you?

[LondonAmerican]

86. of course, since cracker and the n word are both racist insults nt.

[tralfaz]

109. Oh come on,

I have never heard a black person being called a "cracker", so yes it is a racial remark and it was almost certainly meant as a racial remark.

[fishwax]

188. fatty fatty two by four ... lol ... this subthread is absurd

The N word is a word that carries the weight of centuries of slavery and treatment of African Americans as subhuman, not to mention continued institutional oppression.

Cracker hardly carries the same weight that the N word does.

Puhleaze. They're nowhere near the same.

[redqueen]

352. Bullying is bullying. It's all unacceptable.

We can't accept some and say other forms are bad. It's all bad.

[wildeyed]

122. Have you lost your mind?

When white people call black people the 'n' word it is a racial slur.

I have read that there is some controversy in the black community over blacks using that term, but I going to stay out of that discussion.

[mark414]

144. Sucka Nigga

See, nigga first was used back in the Deep South
Fallin out between the dome of the white man's mouth
It means that we will never grow, you know the word dummy
Other niggas in the community think it's crummy
But I don't, neither does the youth cause we
em-brace adversity it goes right with the race
And being that we use it as a term of endearment
Niggas start to bug to the dome is where the fear went
Now the little shorties say it all of the time
And a whole bunch of niggas throw the word in they rhyme
Yo I start to flinch, as I try not to say it
But my lips is like the oowop as I start to spray it


what the fuck are white people so offended about? i'm white and i laugh when someone calls me a cracker because it doesn't mean anything.

black people calling each other nigger is no different than women calling themselves bitches and sluts or gay people calling themselves fags. they take a negative word and use it themselves to take away the power that it has.

it's not a double standard it's the TRUTH, and if you can't handle it i suggest you educate yourself

[jeffrey_X]

154. They use it so it can't be used against them....

Go read Tupac's autobiography by Dr. Michael Eric Dyson. He can explain it much more eloquently than me.

If the rap community never used the N word then the only time they would hear it would be derogatorily by the white community.

It's hard to believe that people acutally can't understand the difference.

[rovespuppet]

237. I'm white but I don't call

anybody Cracker to prevent only hearing it from blacks.....

[Tomee450]

281. You don't have to.

Black people aren't going about calling whites crackers, at least most aren't. The word nigger, however, is in widespread use. Furthermore, I don't recall hearing of whites being called crackers as they were beaten and lynched.

[Pithlet]

319. Exactly. I can safely say

that no black person has ever called me a cracker in my almost 33 years of existence. I don't understand the outrage in this thread.

[Vladimir]

223. Except that this analysis ignores context

when a white person calls a black person a nigger, this word carries with it a reminder of centuries of opression, genocide, slavery and denigration of black people, something which carries on to this day. When a black person uses the term cracker, it has none of that weight behind it, and hence cannot be nearly as hurtful. If someone calls me a cracker, I don't give a shit, in the same way that if was Bill Gates the catcalls of "rich-boy!" woldn't hurt me. If you are part of dominant power group, you are not as vulnerable to insults or hateful terminology as other members of society. The same reason why calling a man a dick is nowhere near as offensive as calling a woman a cunt...

[foo_bar]

80. the origin of the expression is a little more ambiguous

I've seen it attributed to "whipcracker" (reverse reverse reverse racism?), the Gaelic word for shooting the breeze ("Craik", if it began as an anti-Irish slur), or the pale hue of unleavened bread products. But I agree that the historical lack of "black on white oppression" robs the term of the immediacy of the N-word-that-shall-not-be-named.

[ultraist]

96. correct, origin not known for sure...another theory is : jimmy crack corn

Another theory is that it derived from cracking corn to make liquor. Again, it does not have roots in being a racial slur.

Oppressing blacks has a long and violent history. "Nigger" can be traced to slave days and is a racial slur.

There has not been a systemic oppression of whites in this nation. There is a big difference.

[cattleman22]

239. RE: "There has not been a systemic oppression of whites in this nation. "

So in other words "Racial slurs against blacks are unnacceptable and racial slurs against whites are acceptable."

[Tomee450]

278. Racial slurs are never

acceptable but to attempt to attach to the word cracker the baggage associated with the word nigger makes no sense. I rarely hear any black people referring to whites as crackers but the word nigger is widely used. I have relatives who moved backed south who were called nigger several times during the first few weeks of moving there. They were shocked. They had lived in a northern state for many years and had rarely had that world hurled at them. They've discovered that that particular slur is part of the vocabulary of many of the whites in the area.

[pnb]

283. Its part of the vocabulary in the north too actually

Northerners just won't say it to someone's face is all.

[ultraist]

320. You are drawing an illogical conclusion from my statement

I did not say, "Racial slurs against blacks are unnacceptable and racial slurs against whites are acceptable." Nor did I infer that. Your conclusion is illogical.

I said, they are not weighted equally and carry different messages. I also said, that cracker was not coined as a racial slur. If it is used that way today, it does not have the same connotations as does the word "nigger." Not even close. Whites do not have the fear that blacks do in our society to deal with it. The white race is not being terrorized and never has been as a race in our society.

This reverse discrimination argument is really weak. Whites are not considered a protected class by the 14th amendment for good reason.

[1monster]

125. In Florida, the term "cracker" came from the cattle industy.

Florida is the second largest beef producer in the United States (after Texas), something that most people don't know.

The cattlemen would crack whips over the heads of the cattle to move them in the right direction and were thus called whip "crackers." It is generally used here to denote very rural person, farmer, or cattleman.

In our part of the country (largest potato growing part of the state), we have a day dedicated to the farmers and cattlemen/women. It is called CRACKER DAY. It is a southern style rural rodeo and picnic day where a good time is had by all.

[bystnder]

322. Florida cracker connection

Thank you for including that-I only learned of Cracker Day after I moved to Jax.
Being from west FL, we the word cracker to denote a white person who hated black people and not as a derogatory term to the white person. Cracker was used interchangably with racist.
So depending on where the girl was raised, if she meant it the way we mean it down here, she was calling him a racist not calling him a racial slur.

[greblc]

142. The girl chose the word cracker for a reason.

Someone taught her that word and how to use it. How will a child feel about people another race if he is verbally abused by them?

[alittlelark]

219. The term 'cracker' is, to me, a derogatory term that never

became one. Derogatory terms are aimed at those w/o power. Cracker never make it (to say so is silly). "Stupid White Men" is the closest I can come up w/ for a derogatory term (in REALITY) towards Anglos.

[rovespuppet]

238. Good point - and I doubt

the girl would ever refer to another black child as Cracker. Children become their parents....

[Must_B_Free]

206. Cracker means "Whip cracker"

essentially the counterpart to "nigger"

[ultraist]

210. Oh really? Were whites brutally lynched in the 60s?

Are whites drug from the back of pick up trucks because of the color of their skin?

Is there an active paramilitary group that targets whites?

Do the same percentage of blacks hold degrees and make a decent living as the percentage of whites?

I'd say there is quite a lot of assymetry there. No, they are not counterpart words. One is rooted in violence and oppression and the other is rooted in occupation (cracking corn or being cattle farmers).

[pnb]

288. Why does any of that matter?

A word meant to show disdain and/or hate based on a person's race is just that...regardless of who is saying it to who.

Obviously blacks have dealt with horrors from whites that whites have never had to deal with. That doesn't excuse anything now like this now though, which is all you seem to be trying to do.

[Tomee450]

297. No

what some here are attempting to do is deny the fact that nigger is a powerful word usually uttered by members of a community who have the ability to hurt another group. People hurling the word cracker do not have such power. Furthermore, if black parents were always getting outraged at the fact that their children were being called slurs, you'd have a greater incident of high blood pressure and strokes among them. Black children are often called slurs. Most just call the perpetrator another slur and go on or simply ignore it. If the incidents are repeated to such an extent that the child is so upset that he doesn't want to go to school, then you would probably see a black parent taking some kind of action.

[Pithlet]

331. That's the thing. No one is trying to excuse it.

What I and others in this thread are trying to get across is that there is a difference, and it lies in the context of history. There's nothing anyone can do about that. It just is. To insist that that history doesn't matter, and therefore both words are equal, is to brush aside that history. It's impossible to do.

[jasop]

397. Whites are attacked daily!

I do not approve of racism and I was raised in a multi-racial family, but don't EVER assume that whites are not attacked for being white. It happens EVERYDAY. Especially here in Louisiana. How pathetic and ignorant to pretend that racism only goes one way. I HATE racist redneck fuck-heads but I am also VERY familiar with reverse racism, it is a daily occurance down here. I think it needs to be addressed differently then how its been normally adressed though, because its IGNORANT whites and blacks that are the problem. Intelligent HUMANS do not act this way.

[Patriot Acts]

390. Ya'll are makin me hungry....

.....I'm Rick James, BIATCH!

[rovespuppet]

235. Unless your boy lives in one

of these 'cracker box style' houses I would say it was an offensive term.....

[Skeptic_All]

321. According to many people (both black and white)

who reside in the south, the word "cracker" derives it's name from "whip cracker", the white taskmaster/overseer who kept plantation slaves attention to their tasks. Certainly the term is used derisively but with nowhere near the impact as say "white trash" or "redneck".

[HEyHEY]

179. It is

All racial slurs are equal don't you think?

[pnb]

291. Exactly

A slur is a slur. Excusing one slur based on history is wrong.

[Walt Starr]

199. I disagree

They are equally repugnant.

[Stop_the_War]

49. get over it!

[ChairOne]

60. Yah - white people think that sometimes....

(that "cracker" is just as bad as "nigger")

Completely ahistorical in their thinking, those people are.....

[mattclearing]

66. It's just a word.

I understand it's offensive. But namecalling is relatively small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.

Of course, if I had kids, I might very well react as you are.

[LondonAmerican]

89. i don't think you would apply that flawed logic to other racist insults

at least i hope you wouldn't.

[mattclearing]

111. Actually, I do.

I'm one of those few people that actually believes talk is cheap.

Racists expose themselves and Karma takes care of the rest.

You can't accomplish anything if people think you are a hater.

Even Bush knows that.

[donheld]

100. I think you're blowing this out of purportion

but that's just me. "Cracker" is not even close to being as bad as the N* word.

[Sterling]

180. Is Nigger as bad as say chink?

Or spick? Or whatever. Which races is it ok to make fun of?I need to understand this?

[DaCheat]

186. Yea

I would like to know as well. I mean, I know white people are ok to insult, but I want to be perfectly clear as to who else...

[donheld]

192. Anyone who feels made fun of by being called a cracker

Needs thicker skin. Maybe it's because i grew up out west, but cracker out here would not be a big deal.

[Walt Starr]

202. Sorry, the C word is as racist and repugnant as the N word

Rplace your C wrd with the N word in your statement and you will see what I mean.

[Tomee450]

290. I strongly disagree.

The word nigger evokes in me, a black person, the memory of my father being called boy, the words of a white person telling a child "nigger you get your black ass out of here" and of my friend being told, upon returning to her small town in Mississippi, "nigger your wedding rings are better than my wife's". She left town the next day. The word nigger evokes in me the image seen on post cards of big mouth blacks, and shuffling feet, of old black men afraid of speaking their opinion for fear of being run out of town or worse. The word nigger evokes in me the image of young black men being forced to hop a train to get out of town because he allegedly said something to a white woman. Nigger get out of town was the refrain in many southern towns, nigger you better stay in your place if you know what's good for you. So, you can try to equate the slur cracker with that of nigger, but such equating won't stand. No white person is made to feel lesser because of the word cracker because deep in their hearts most whites, I believe, feel superior to blacks. Blacks on the other hand knows that the person hurling the epithet nigger is someone who has much more power over them and thus the ability to hurt. History supports that assessment.

[ultraist]

316. Thank you Tomee450 for the insightful comments!

I strongly agree with your statements.

[wildeyed]

362. Great post, Tomee. n/t

[jeffrey_X]

372. Great post Tomee......everyone needs to read this

and really try to gain some perspective of what it must have really been like.

[Nameless]

380. Excuse me?

No white person is made to feel lesser because of the word cracker because deep in their hearts most whites, I believe, feel superior to blacks.

That itself is a racist statement. I would never make such a blanket statement about black people or any other race and should be ashamed of doing so yourself. The 'n' may be more degrading than the 'c' word, but to use any racial slur is equally repugnant, no matter what's the history behind it.

[Misunderestimator]

450. What bullshit... That is not a racist statement... it is the statement

of someone who has been oppressed because of his race for his lifetime. If whites at some level did not feel superior to blacks, we wouldn't have the problems we have with racism.

I am sick and tired of white people calling black people racists. Those TWO WORDS cracker and n***** ARE NOT EQUALLY REPUGNANT, and you know it.

[ultraist]

472. Well said Misunderestimator!

I agree, Misunderestimator. I didn't see racism in that remark, I saw honesty. An honest reflection on the prevailing attitude that is ingrained in white people from the time they are children, as we saw with this OP.

LIFT THE VEIL!

Some people simply refuse to step out of their narrow egotistical view.

[Nameless]

474. Please

I was responding only to his assertion that "most whites, I believe, feel superior to blacks". That kind of blanket statement is racist because it puts a label that can't be proven either way on the lion's share of a given race. That kind of labeling has no place on this board. One can debate the historical roots and cultural effects of various racial slurs, that's a given. But who, if witnessing two similar arguments; one which degenerated to the point where the white man yelled "N****R!" at the black man at which point the black man responded "CRA****!", and another which degerated to where the black man yelled "CRA****!" to which the white man responded "N****R!", would judge the instigator in one case morally superior to the instigator in the other? Or the person responding in one case morally superior to the person responding in the other? What does the history and cultural effects of these words have to do with the repugnancy of what these two men said while arguing?

As for your statement, "I am sick and tired of white people calling black people racists": First of all, I did not label Tomee as being racist nor did I make any such blanket accusation against black people as he made against white people. Second, if someone came on this board saying something similar to the part of Tomee's post that I objected to about black people, asians, or hispanics, I would object all the same. Why should I not object to an demeaning point because the person who said it is black? Should I assume that because the poster is black, that they don't know better? That itself would be racist. I feel that there is a lot of ridiculous white-male victimhood being promoted by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, David Horowitz, and their ilk, but why should I not call out a slur directed against a certain race? Think about it.

[Misunderestimator]

477. You ignore that he said "I believe"... therefore no "facts" have to be...

presented or proven... it is his experience as a black man that gives him his perspective. It is not racist, because the perspective he has comes from his oppression AS a black man. It's incredible to me that you would consider that perspective racist.

And furthermore, I agree with him, as a white woman, and it is not racist, because it is MY perspective having throughout my life witnessed the racism and often smug superiority of many, many white people towards black people.

For your second paragraph, I was talking in a more general sense about many posts I have seen from white people calling black people racists.... I didn't mean that part towards you.

[Dorian Gray]

232. I was called a cracker when I

was at a Six Flags park two years ago. I went into the restroom, and two girls actually said, "Why you in here, cracker?" I was caught between being really angry and laughing my ass off.

I've never been called a cracker before (or since). Since I live in NYC, it's not a commonly used offensive remark. But, what made me angry was the hatred in their voices. I'm not used to that, and it really infuriated me.

The word itself doesn't bother me, but any other person trying to diminish another person's dignity through using racial slurs are WRONG. It doesn't matter if the person is black, white, hispanic, asian, middle-eastern, Indian, etc. It's just wrong to be filled with such hate, and they should be called out on it.

[Dorian Gray]

233. And no...

I didn't call them out. I just ignore the remark.

[ultraist]

204. I prefer to avoid racial slurs and stick to classism

like "dumb fuck trailer trash". Classim in our society doesn't carry the violent history that racism does. :eyes:

As many have noted, "cracker" does not carry the same message as "nigger." If you fail to see this, I would suggest reviewing the USCB stats and questioning why there are discrepancies between blacks and whites in income & education. Additionally, a quick search will provide some interesting info on racism and how it manifests. Scholarly journal articles are a good source.

Furthermore, the word cracker was not coined as a racial slur to oppress whites. There are several theories of it's origin, as noted on this thread, none of which carry the connotations as "nigger" does.

[Skeptic_All]

326. Let's take it even further............what about ethnic slurs such as

Mick, Guinea, whop, pollack, etc? Though all of these words can be used as indicators of contempt, how many times have these words also been used as signs of affection? Tis a strange world we live in when words which were designed to offend (nigger, kike, Hebe), have through some type of grammatical evolution become words of association, IE. nigga.

I don't let namecalling of any kind bother me. There's just so much more to worry about.

[wildeyed]

119. I disagree.

I don't think 'cracker' is the same as the n word. Doesn't have the same connotations of hate and injustice that the other word has.

[Igel]

131. I've never heard "cracker" used in a way that was neutral or

respectful. Only to convey what would usually be called "hate", if directed to a non-white.

May not connote injustice, but hate ...

Moreover, I thought that it didn't matter what the person speaking thought, if the recipient finds that it creates an atmosphere of hate and intimidation, it creates an atmosphere of hate and intimidation.

[wildeyed]

140. We can nitpick over what the exact connotation of the word 'cracker'

is all you want. But what happened, this woman's son took a ball away from a girl by force and she called him a name. If it had been a white girl who called him cracker would this woman be threatening to report her to the principle? I doubt it. Sounds like the girl's race is why this woman is attacking her. Over some stupid playground squabble that went nowhere.

[cattleman22]

240. It is either acceptable to racial slurs or it is not.

"But what happened, this woman's son took a ball away from a girl by force and she called him a name. If it had been a white girl who called him cracker would this woman be threatening to report her to the principle? I doubt it. Sounds like the girl's race is why this woman is attacking her."


So if a white boy called a black boy a n****, would you then say that the black boys mother was only threatening to report the white boy because of the white boy's race?

[wildeyed]

303. It is different when a white person calls a black person a

name than it is when a black person calls a white person a name. For more extensive elaboration on that point, see post #165.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3118323&mesg_id=3120044&page=

I believe that if it had been a white girl that had her ball snatched and she called the white boy 'dumb ass' or something similar, nothing would have been done.

[cattleman22]

335. Of course. Cracker is a racial slur while dumb ass is not. n/y

[wildeyed]

341. Or maybe it is ok when white girls mouth off,

but black girls better know their place.

Would you really honestly care if a black person called you a cracker? I just can't see getting all that exercised about it.

[cattleman22]

348. Yes I would be upset and scared if a black person used the slur cracker.

Where did you get that it was acceptable for white girls to mouth off. If a white girl used the racial slur nigger at a black person, I would be just as upset.

[wildeyed]

349. Scared? Why scared?

More scared than if they called you a cracker than if they called you a dumb ass? Why?

[cattleman22]

402. A person who uses a racial slur shows hatred

towards a group of people that he or she has pumped into a catogry, thus dehumanizing that group.


A person who says dumb ass does not necesarily show hatred.

[wildeyed]

405. Lol, whatever. n/t

[Misunderestimator]

451. Scared ??? LOL... Imagine the fright of a young black kid being called

a n***** by a white person. Do you think you'd be as scared as him?

[jeffrey_X]

165. PLEASE READ THIS ARTICLE "The Myth of Reverse Racism"...

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2002-06/24wise.cfm

snip

When a group of people has little or no power over you institutionally, they don’t get to define the terms of your existence, they can’t limit your opportunities, and you needn’t worry much about the use of a slur to describe you and yours, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it’s going to go. What are they going to do next: deny you a bank loan? Yeah, right.

So whereas “nigger” was and is a term used by whites to dehumanize blacks, to imply their inferiority, to “put them in their place” if you will, the same cannot be said of honky: after all, you can’t put white people in their place when they own the place to begin with.

snip

The lack of symmetry between a word like honky and a slur such as “nigger” was made apparent in an old Saturday Night Live skit, with Chevy Chase and guest, Richard Pryor. In the skit, Chase and Pryor face one another and trade off racial epithets during a segment of Weekend Update. Chase calls Pryor a “porch monkey.” Pryor responds with “honky.” Chase ups the ante with “jungle bunny.” Pryor, unable to counter with a more vicious slur against whites, responds with “honky, honky.” Chase then trumps all previous slurs with “nigger,” to which Pryor responds: “dead honky.”

The line elicits laughs all around, but also makes clear, at least implicitly that when it comes to racial antilocution, people of color are limited in the repertoire of slurs they can use against whites, and even the ones of which they can avail themselves sound more comic than hateful. The impact of hearing the antiblack slurs in the skit was of a magnitude unparalleled by hearing Pryor say “honky” over and over again.

snip

[wildeyed]

170. Good article, thanks. n/t

[Igel]

306. Don't buy that argument.

It's convenient to classify "power" in a way that preserves victimhood for a specific group, or, more precisely, preserves oppressorhood for a specific group.

My wife was repeatedly spit on, called names, and even beat up when she was in high school. School was like 3% white. You're saying that because she was punched and called whitey, spit on and called anglo, and insulted because she was blondie, that it's not racism. Because she was white. Or maybe because her attackers were sacred blacks and latinos. And, like her attackers said, "the white girl had to learn her place."

Yeah, she had the power. She showed them a thing or two when her soft face traumatized their boney knuckles.

[Pithlet]

315. Another gem.

It's convenient for victims of racism when they continue to suffer from racism in the US today. Yeah. Next time you hear that someone has been victimized by racism, just tell them it's convenient. They'll love it.

I went to a high school that was majority black as well the first two years I went there. And I suffered none of that. In fact, most of the bullying I suffered was from other white kids.

I'm not saying that I don't believe your story, or that you're making it up. I'm just always surprised by all the people I run into who were the white minority in their school who were so violently treated by all the black kids. It's so contrary to my experience and others I know from similar circumstances. And the fact that that exact scenario comes up in message boards during heated discussions of "reverse racism" does seem to be a bit "convenient" to me.

[Igel]

365. The predominant form of ethnic cursing at my high school

were "dago, wop, pollock". Since I'm white and they're white, it's not offensive.

And too many people here are freeperlike: it doesn't suit their beliefs, it must be a lie. Keeps reality simple enough.

Wife's high school school wasn't any more black than it was white.

[Pithlet]

389. If you say so.

It wasn't offensive. I happen to think those insults you mention ARE offensive.

Your wife's experiences at her high school don't change history. It is the history that gives the context. No one is saying that what your wife went through, or that any bullying, is acceptable. It is not.

It is not freeperish to disagree with those who think that racism isn't a big deal. And that is the main theme that runs through this thread. No one here is disagreeing without stating reasonable arguments, here. Unlike most freepers.

[Igel]

411. I privilege no race. n/t

[Karenina]

413. Fish swimming and breathing in water...

"What's water?"

[ultraist]

328. That's an exception to the rule argument; blacks are only 12% of the pop

Whites are the majority in our society. RARELY are whites in a situation where they are the minority.

The few times whites may be in this situation are the schools that bus due to integration. I went to a 70% black high school because of busing, the majority white parents put their kids in private school to avoid them being in a black neighborhood. I had no problems whatsoever. The white kids were still the power holders. Many states have ended busing.

Did you wife have some issue that made her more susceptible to being bullied? Did she have a difficult time relating to blacks that alienating her?

[Igel]

366. Ah, you assume that the school was primarily black.

Small, 50-60 students per class. Rural Arizona. Latino population had lots of kids; the white population was older, most of their kids had moved to the big city and those that stayed had few kids.

Tough being one of the few minority students at your school. Blonde and blue-eyed stuck out.

[wildeyed]

332. I would classify that as bullying, not racism.

And it sounds like she suffered and for that I am sorry.

For the record, I spent a portion of my school years at a majority black school and was not bullied. When I switched to a majority white school, I was. I think bullying is a pretty universal problem, but maybe we can address that in another thread, this one is cumbersome enough as it is.

[Karenina]

416. And her understandable aversion

to all things "black" remains to this day? Oder?

[The Sheik]

359. Just remind your son never to be embarrased about who he is.

This girl knows that race can be something people (odly) get subconcious about, and he should remember the power of pride.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

467. White Pride!

Yeah, there's never enough of that! :eyes:

And "who her son is" is a bully, taking things away from other people.

[hfojvt]

67. omigod, are they still playing 4 square?

I sorta hate that game. They taught it to us in PE and suddenly it was like an epidemic, the playground was full of people playing 4 square - even on the basketball court where I was trying to play basketball. That was about 35 years ago. That game is nothing but trouble.
I had no knowledge of the term "cracker" until I saw the movie "Remember the Titans". Chris Rock used it in "Jay and Silent Bob strike back" but I did not know what he was talking about. I cannot see it as nearly the moral equivalent of the n-word.

[HEyHEY]

178. It's even not nicer to call people racist names.

Shouldn't we concentrate on that?

;-)

[Stop_the_War]

30. I would've called him that too if he stole that ball from me....

Does your son have any decency?
:silly:

[Warpy]

47. If he's white, the proper response to that kind of hate is

to admit he is and tell her to kiss his cracker ass.

But that's only if he doesn't want to rat her out and get a teacher involved in finding out if she even knows what a cracker IS.

My guess is that this kid lives with a lot of heavy duty trash talk at home and is just repeating what she hears.

[LiberalinNC]

58. BINGO!

We have a winner... I'll be sure to tell that to my son! I love your response!!!! Thanks!

[jeffrey_X]

173. Maybe this is a chance to educate your child as to the awful cycle...

of racism and maybe teach him WHY it was used in the first. You and I both know our school systems do a horrendous job of teach african american history.

[LiberalinNC]

363. That's why I have taught my children about

Martin Luther King. I have explained to them, the best way I can, what he was doing, and what it meant to the people of color...and that he was not only fighting for their rights, but the rights of all people. I am NOT a racist person, nor do I allow any racism in my home.

[ultraist]

99. Oh, that's a liberal approach.

Telling someone to kiss their cracker ass shows respect, tolerance, and dignity.

BTW, using physical force is highly inappropriate behavior. I've taught my children to walk away from physical altercations if at all possible, even if they are hit for no reason. If they need to defend themselves, by all means. But violence is not civilized.

[Sparkle]

94. If that is how it happened, I think you should report that child.

Did you talk to your son and ask if this some kind of joke between students? That was uncalled for, if it had been the other way around, I'll bet she would have reported it.

Wait....this was a black chick right?

[Karenina]

433. All HE did...

objective reporter that he is... Guess he's already been well instructed about CYA...

[okieinpain]

3. well was he being a little "al cracker".

[n2mark]

4. Guess I live in my own little world

but why did they label him?

[okieinpain]

20. who did it, black kids or white kids.

[LiberalinNC]

35. Black junior high girl called him cracker

[okieinpain]

52. well you know black kids have a funny way of using offensive

words. did they follow-up with a threat to do bodily harm. (sorry for all the questions)

[DrWeird]

57. Yeah, and you'll have to watch out for drive-bys now.

Got any white daughters? Better lock them up.

[okieinpain]

181. I don't understand. explain please.

[Igel]

132. I can't figure out why everybody (or nearly so) on this

forum is trying to say "cracker" is deserved, not racist, not hateful, or just a cute way that "those people" have of speaking.

Good ... maybe eventually we'll have whites stop being racist. And *then* we can work on everybody else.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

136. Because people are trying to put it in the same place as other

derogatory words. And it is not in any way. Further, the kid that said it, is a KID. I don't blame kids for their words, because they pick them up from their parents. Thirdly, it is not as though she did it out of racism. She did it because the kid took her ball, goodness knows how. The OP doesn't say. Therefore, based on what little evidence I have, she probably just said it out of frustration, on the same level of "jerk" because he stole her ball, yanked it, pushed her, or whatever he did to get it away from her.

[pnb]

293. Oh please

If she had taken the ball from him and he called her a n***** for it, would you say it wasn’t based on hate? Or that it was just the word he happened to pick?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

300. As in this case,

I would say that a KID doesn't know a thing about racism. I have said the same thing before in other posts.

But cracker is more likely to be used as "just a word' than n****r because of the history surrounding the latter. As many people have pointed out, cracker doesn't care the same weight that n****r does. It was never used by those in power to "put the other one in their place". How could it be? It applies to those in power.

[Igel]

309. When I was in second or third grade I heard other kids on the playground

call the lone black girl in our class "nigger". I had never heard the word before, as far as I know, and didn't understand it to be offensive. I went home and, over dinner, referred to that girl that way.

Dinner was cancelled. I didn't sit down without pain for days. I learned the lesson. It was explained to me, way back in 1966 or '67, that the word was hateful, racist, and offensive, and ought not be said. I've never applied that word to another human being since then (although I've cited it, as above).

Nobody cared that whites didn't find the word offensive if they said it, or what they meant by it.

Nobody said "oh, he's just 8 years old" or "he didn't mean anything racist by it".

You teach kids not to use race- or ethnicity-based epithets that others find offensive. Period.

[okieinpain]

182. I'm not saying that. just explaining that young folks use the n word

in a lot of different ways. why would anyone not expect them to use other words too. and of course the offender could have meant just what she said.

[DrWeird]

53. Why that uppity bitch.

I think that she needs to be taught a lesson that if a white boy wants your ball, you sure as hell better give it to him.

[knowbody0]

61. clap clap

[MountainLaurel]

121. Snork

Two points for DrWeird

[angee_is_mad]

220. I like you!

I really like you!!! Finally, someone who gets it!!

[Pithlet]

307. Bravo!

Now, if you'd only see things my way on women's issues... ;)

[LostInAnomie]

5. That along with "honky" could be the lamest racial slurs...

... ever invented.

They just sound funny, not insulting.

[ChairOne]

65. how about "dead honky"? (LOL - it's a reference!)

Anybody remember it? One of the funniest things ever on network tv - and even tangentially relevant to this thread.

lol - still makes me giggle...

[Bunny]

77. I remember it. Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase on SNL.

That was a classic!

[ChairOne]

84. Gold star for you! lol /eom

[Walt Starr]

6. IMO, "Cracker" is a racist term

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[LiberalinNC]

9. I agree!

I've written the Principle stating I want to file an official complaint.

[TomClash]

28. Good for you.

If it was said to him to disparage him, the principal should discipline the kids who said it to him.

[DefenseLawyer]

41. You aren't seriously writing the principle are you?

How old are these kids? You will start some big investigation and since there is probably some "zero tolerance policy" at the school they will suspend the girl. I am not condoning name calling, but in my opinion the better approach would be to explain to your son that ignorant people resort to name calling when they have nothing more intelligent to say and that he will very likely face many such ignorant people in his life and it is best to ignore them if that is all they can muster. Sticks and stones, remember? If anything let the kids deal with it. Now if it is an ongoing thing, and the name calling is part of a pattern of bullying it is a different story. But one commentin the heat of the "ball taking incident"? Come on.

[LiberalinNC]

50. Let's just say this isn't the first time she has done this.

She has called other students this name and has gotten away w/ it. I want it on record that my son was called this just incase she does it again. I see you're a defense lawyer, so you can understand having "everything" on record. CYA

[Warpy]

55. My suggestion was better.

Stand up to any sort of a bully and s/he will crumble about 90% of the time.

Of course, you have to be willing to get hurt that other 10% of the time, but that bully will still never bother you again.

I learned that one when I was eleven.

[DrWeird]

59. Yeah, but who's the bully?

nt

[ultraist]

73. LYNCH THE BLACK FEMALE!

We all know that black females have all the privileges.

Black females are the poorest segment of society. Forget about racism and sexism, they have it so fucking easy.

Take the bitch out! Make her life hell!

My God, how fucking DARE she call a white boy a name because he physically stole the ball from her. She should know her place!

Punishing children that are already vicitmized on a systemic level is the best way, right?

Why not consider teaching your son to model good behavior to her and show some forgiveness and love?

[jeffrey_X]

190. Just another example of.....

The black man keeping the white man down.

;-)

[jeffrey_X]

184. Give me a break...

You had to come here and ask complete strangers "how you should feel".

WTF



:wtf:

[donheld]

329. Great Point

I guess even some DUer can't think on their own.

[King Coal]

27. But "Cracker Bomb" is ok. So is "Cracker Jack".

Or Saltine Cracker 10 cents a pound!
:smoke:

[Walt Starr]

54. Yeah, and you can prick your finger

but don't tell the world you finger your prick while on national broadcast television!

[agitpropagent9]

79. agreed

thanks walt. i agree.

cracker, regardless of its origins (the most common explanation of which is a truncated version of "whipcracker") is a derogatory term, and the mentality behind it (to slur, dehumanize and taunt someone because of his/her race) is every bit as manevolent as a white person using the word "nigger".

a black child shouldn't be given a pass on this type of behavior any more than a child of any other race. there is no entitlement to engage in behavior when, were the situation reversed, it would be immediately (and rightfully) condemned.

[jeffrey_X]

102. Yep...the black man is really holding the white man down with that term...

:eyes:

[donheld]

110. Much ado about nothing.

i join your eye rolling. :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[cattleman22]

241. I agree as well.

In my opinion, a person who uses the term cracker is just as morally repugnant as a person who uses the word nigger.

[kwassa]

256. oh, please, crackers with whine and cheese

Comparing "cracker" and "nigger" is really silly. Cracker has nowhere near the negative connotation or any of the history that the word nigger has.

[Dying Eagle]

7. I have a question

Are white people supposed to be offended by that? i know I am not.

What is the origin of the use of "cracker"

[LondonAmerican]

10. yes, like all insults, it is meant to be offensive nt.

[LiberalinNC]

18. The definiation of cracker is...

the racially charged one and is best understood after carefully considering all previous definitions as to how it evolved.

8. Cracker is also a Black name for whites, especially those thought to be racists.

[donheld]

330. 8. Cracker is also a Black name for whites, especially those thought to be

if the shoe fits...

[ultraist]

442. No it is not a racial slur and it certainly does NOT carry the same power

and message that the word "nigger" does. What definitions are racially charged? Cracking corn? Cracking the whip on cattle? Cracker style houses? Those are the main three theories, look it up. Lawton Chiles refers to himself as a proud cracker frequently.

You know good and well what the schools are like here, do you really want to punish this child for reacting to your son being physically inappropriate? Why don't you stop for a moment and consider what this child's life might be like and what obstacles she will face as a black female in this society. You MUST know, that 98% of the blacks in Cary schools are bused in from low income neighborhoods. Try to muster up some compassion and understanding for this child.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

8. Probably just a joke...

Term used to describe a white person, usually one who wears clothes and listens to music generally associated with African American culture.

[thebigidea]

12. nuh-uh.

It derives from plantation owners who would crack their whips at slaves.

[LondonAmerican]

13. uhm, no

it used to mean a southern, country white. it was used widely in the 1960s to describe southern country whites and the politicians that pandered to their prejudices.

i think you are referring to another term, one that rhymes with the 'n' word.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

16. I know of that one too

Just what it means from my experience.

Thanks for the info though.

[ultraist]

97. Go back to the 1800s when it was coined: Jimmy crack corn

Crackers were those who made liquor from cracking corn. (In the 60s in FL, it was used to describe people who live in cracker box style houses but this was likley a vernacular use).

It does NOT have racial slur origins. It was not coined to oppress whites.

That slavemaster "cracking the whip" theory is highly debunked. But even if it's true, it was not a racial slur coined to oppress a group.

The fact is, even if it did have racial slur origins, which it doesn't, whites are not an oppressed group.

24% of blacks live in poverty
8% of whites live in poverty

WHY is that? Is it because blacks and whites are treated fairly and blacks are inferior? Or is it because we have serious problems with racism in our society.

BTW, I am white.

[WMliberal]

14. and?

:shrug:

I got called that a lot, too. For a while, I thought my name was "heywhiteboy" or "heyyoucracker." It happens. The young are ignorant.

Where in NC are you from?

[LiberalinNC]

22. Yes the young are ignorant at times...

I'm in Cary, NC.

[WMliberal]

46. how integrated is your child's school?

I'm from the Hampton Roads section of Virginia. My schools were about 50/50. I had to put up with a lot of rednecks whose parents thrust their racism upon their kids (and had been too poor to whiteflight) and then black kids who had been fed the same garbage the other way around. I got called about everything one could be called from both sides.

[ChairOne]

62. lol - on the face of it, a silly question....

It's obviously "integrated enough" for a black kid to be able to call a white kid "cracker" without fear of being strung up within a few hours....

lol

[WMliberal]

85. Well, what I'd heard of Cary, NC before was that it was a wealthy white

suburb of Raleigh. I wanted to know more about the demographics of the area and the context.

[ChairOne]

87. So much for "on the face of it"..... lol

Guess I better get my black suit cleaned up for the funeral... poor girl.....

[ultraist]

101. I live in Cary and all of the blacks in Cary schools are bused in from...

poor areas in Raleigh because there are so few blacks in Cary, they have to bus them in from Raleigh to meet their racial quotas.

My son is black and attends a public Cary middle school and there is a LOT of racism in the school systems here.

Cary is heavily Repuke.

Our adopted son faces a lot of racism in the schools but is not as vulnerable as the poor black kids because the teachers know we are white upper middle class. My son also happens to very intelligent, exceptionally well behaved and gets his homework done. He understands that people have preconcieved notions about black males so this makes it a bit easier to deal with the racism he encounters. He also has very good social skills and is popular, so this helps as well.

It's a lot harder for the black kids who have not learned the white mores and social skills and who are poor.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

128. African Americans make up a whopping 6% of Cary's population

Whites make up 83%

http://www.townofcary.org/depts/dsdept/P&Z/populationreport.pdf

[tralfaz]

191. Oh my gosh,

how does that has any relevence to this posting? Big deal if the town is 83% white. If a white child had called a black child a racial name then you would probably be going crazy and wanting that kids ass in jail. Grow up, racism goes both ways.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

214. No...

If you look below, that is not what I would be doing. But you can go ahead and pretend.

And it does have something to do with this post, a poster above asked what the town was like. It's overwhelmingly white.

And if you honestly think racism exists in some sort of equilibrium...then that's just...sad.

And personal attacks on posters? I would say that that is far more immature than, er...responding to someone else's question.

[ultraist]

310. Your comment about the racial composition IS very relevant

These things need to be considered in context. Touting the "exception to the rule" argument is particularly weak in a 85% white community.

[Cocoa]

15. need more context

[MissB]

19. Yep, it is all about context

and we're lacking a whole lot of it in the OP.

[DrWeird]

17. This reverse racism is disgusting, it's keeping us down.

We shall overcome.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

21. haha reverse racism

I know that one for sure.

That's a big buzz word used by the AM radio pukes generally used when referring to the NAACP.

[LondonAmerican]

31. racism is racism, no matter who does it nt.

[DrWeird]

38. You're right.

Well, not really. But it's fun to pretend.

[LondonAmerican]

42. oh please

some people are more equal than others? no wonder we lose elections.

[DrWeird]

45. If I had a nickel...

for everytime somebody used that line...

[ChairOne]

63. Nothing like *white* folks getting to decide....

.... what is and is not racism... Beautiful.

[fleabert]

108. *clap*clap*clap*clap*

and ditto for anyone in a majority group thinking they get to decide what language is/isn't offensive to a minority group.

[Buffy44]

371. But you think it's okay

...for a minority group to decide what is offensive to a majority group?

Why would you think it's okay for any group to decide what is offensive to any other group? That doesn't make sense.

Words of hate are words of hate. It doesn't matter who says them, what race they are, or the history of their race.

In the south, ther term cracker is offensive to whites. It insinuates that the recipient of the slur is racist - a person of hate. How much more offensive can you be?

Put it this way. To be called a cracker is to be called a racist. If being called a racist is so "not bad, no big deal"....then why are people so offended by racists?

[fleabert]

421. You read my post incorrectly.

Minority groups get to decide which words are offensive to them. Majority groups can decide if a word is offensive to them as well, but usually the majority wants to do both.

I would be offended if I was called a cracker, as I understand it to equal racist. but my first response would not be anger, it would be shock. I would want to know why someone would think I deserved to be called that, and I would want to talk about it.

Often, white people behave and speak in ways that are offensive and racist without even knowing they are doing so. I have and was glad to find out so I could change the behavior. I am white, I can't change that, I grew up in the south, I can't change that, but I can change the results. With the shit I was given to go on in terms of race, I am happy to be where I am, always growing and learning.

I suggest reading 'Why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria', and excellent book about racial issues such as this.

BTW- I am in a bi-racial marriage. I know a little bit about racial and ethnic issues first hand.

[CTLawGuy]

115. no one "decides" what racism is

that line of argument is simply designed to quash any disagreement with your ideas.


Let's assume what you imply is true, that racism can only be defined by its victims.

If I drive a green car and a black man comes up to me and says driving green cars is racist, must I accept that driving green cars is racist? If not, what recourse under your principle do I have to challenge his assertion?

[ChairOne]

118. lol - no, that's not what that line of argument is for.....

LOL - You're defending the idea that the fox is a good choice for guarding the henhouse, and calling my an disagreement-quasher in the same breath. Bravo!

[CTLawGuy]

126. no

I believe racism can be objectively defined.

In fact it's defined as treating people unequally because of their race. It's as simple as that. Not hard to understand.

What you advocate is a framework of understanding racism which divdes the races and causes resentment. It reinforces the same collectivist thinking that caused racism in the first place.

The only way to end racism is to learn to forgive (let go of the past), and to work toward a more equal society, as well as to realize and appreciate our SIMILARITIES, our common humanity.

What you are advocating will drive moderate and conservative whites to the Republican party in droves. The Republican party doesn't blame them for all the world's problems. Even moderate and conservative whites WANT equality of opportunity for minorities. But what they don't want is to be called the evil oppressor- to be judged by the color of their skin.

[ChairOne]

134. You can believe that all you want..... don't make it so....

Among other things, your attempt at a "clear and precise" definition leaves out the *history* of racism in America. And a lot of people, myself included, think that history is of the essence here. (For example, history is a component in explaining the difference between "cracker" and "nigger".)

lol - I love it tho - there they go again white folks telling those whiny black folks to "let go of the past".... No need to set wrongs right, just..... let it go... White folks get their historical "heritage", black folks get to "let go of the past"....

Wonderful.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CTLawGuy]

149. I guess I must have personally attacked you

for that I am sorry. But I don't like it to be insinuated that I am a racist.

[wildeyed]

138. Yes, you can 'define' racism,

but that would be taking it out of context. You have to include our history in that analysis, a history that includes slavery, Jim Crow and unequal treatment still. Sorry, your definition is simplistic and wrong.

"What you advocate is a framework of understanding racism which divdes the races and causes resentment." Well only resentment of white people. I guess black peoples resentments don't matter?

"The only way to end racism is to learn to forgive (let go of the past), and to work toward a more equal society, as well as to realize and appreciate our SIMILARITIES, our common humanity." WTF? Are you advocating that blacks learn to forgive? Kind of condescending, don't you think? Or are we whites supposed to forgive blacks? For what, calling us cracker? It would be great if we could put all this nasty racism stuff behind us, but I don't think we are there yet. There is allot of work to be done before we are at forgiveness time.

[CTLawGuy]

147. its not productive to dwell on the past

its productive though to REMEMBER the past and use it to create an equal society TODAY.

What is not productive is to go around blaming todays whites for slavery and calling them the oppressor. These people are your potential allies. Most white people today would have stopped slavery and whites-only fountains and ku-klux-klan lynchings if they could, but they can't.

We can't DO anything about what happened in the past. I wish i could go back in time and throw George Wallace in federal prison for standing in the school room door, but I can't.

I wish I could go back in time and fight for the union army against the confederates, but I can't.

I wish I could go back to the early 1800's and help Harriet Tubman ferry escaped slaves over the Ohio River, but I can't.

Dwelling on the past is not helpful. But the past can be used to realize why we need to have a racially equal society today.

-----
I also believe your framework causes black resentment too. It encourages them to mistrust today's white people, to hate people for something they frankly didn't do, because they have a certain skin color.

We must realize what we all have in common as people. We are all children of the same God (or nature if you prefer). We all need jobs, education, health insurance, safety. We all care about our families.

[wildeyed]

162. Well I agree with the part about creating an equal society today.

But telling oppressed people not to dwell on it, to just get over it is incredibly condescending. People get over things in their own time.

I am not calling anyone an oppressor. But we all bear responsibility for what happened in our country's past, regardless of whether we would have done it differently.

I am confused, are you saying we can't talk about racism because it make some white people uncomfortable and they won't vote democratic if they are uncomfortable? Cause we have to talk about it if we plan to do anything about it.

"It encourages them to mistrust today's white people, to hate people for something they frankly didn't do, because they have a certain skin color." Again, this statement is paternalistic and completely divorced from reality. Racism still exists. It is not some historical artifact.

[CTLawGuy]

167. no, we should talk about racism

that is ok. What we shouldn't do is blame all white people today for things that happened in the past.

Of course racism still exists, but whites and blacks must be allies to stop it, not enemies.

We must realize how different we really AREN'T, before racism can go away.

We also should not poo poo racial comments that are made against white people. I know whites haven't had a history of oppression, but I think it's reasonable that on prinicple:

1. racial slurs are harmful
2. blacks and white should be equally treated no matter what. If it's wrong for a white person to do it, it should be wrong for a black person too. That's what treating people equally is about.

When people do poo poo these things it says to white people "you deserve this treatment as punishment for all the times people with your skin color did that to black people."

[wildeyed]

174. Please see post #165.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3118323&mesg_id=3120044

[CTLawGuy]

189. interesting

however, if I call a black person the N-word, the most likely consequence is he beats the shit out of me.

I'm one person. If I simply call someone the N-word, I can't take away his rights. I have to actually be able to take away their rights (ie be in government). It doesn't mean the word is not insulting, or harmful. It is very much so.

But don't give me more credit than I'm worth. The story would be different if my using that word caused the powers that be to bear down on the victim. In this modern world that is highly unlikely.

Racism exists when racists are put into power. If racists are not in power, then they are just kooks.

Likewise, if a black person called me a cracker, it is insulting. I interpret cracker to mean an uncouth racist white person. Being called a racist is offensive to me. The black person can't take away my rights, but it doesn't make it less offensive.

[wildeyed]

222. But racists are always in power to some degree or another.

Therefor racism always exists.

[ultraist]

208. Ask some black people if it offends them that people talk about racism

Have you spent any time around blacks? Talking about racism is not taboo within the black community. You are making a highly inaccurate assumption here.

BTW, are you aware that the KKK is actively recruiting? We are seeing an ever growing CULTURE OF HATE in Bushworld.

We are not talking only about being educated about the past, we are talking about acknowledging the reality of TODAY and how we got here.

SILENCING people is a form of oppression. Ask any gay or black how they feel about being SILENCED.

[CTLawGuy]

213. im not against

talking about racism. I'm against making blanket assertions about all white people.

We can more effectively fight racism working TOGETHER rather than fomenting guilt among allies.

[wildeyed]

225. This whole idea that we should not feel guilt,

should not feel uncomfortable about how blacks were treated in the past and how they continue to be treated is completely bogus.

Feeling uncomfortable/guilty/angry about an issue is motivation to get out there and make some changes.

You have to recognize the problem and deal with it before anyone can 'get over it'.

White people who are unwilling to confront the realities of race in america and then have the decency to feel bad about it are not 'our allies' in the fight against racism.

They are in denial.

[CTLawGuy]

247. you don't have to feel guilt to be motivated

you can feel empathy and it will do just fine.

the problem with guilt is some people resist. People do not like to be blamed for things they did not do.

I don't see why you think white people have to blame themselves for racism in order to fight against it.

I don't blame myself for racism, yet I recognize that blacks were systematically disenfranchised in Florida in 2000, that blacks are disproportionately executed, that blacks are profiled by the cops in our so-called "war on drugs".

I'm against these things because equality is what I value as a liberal, not because I feel "gulity". Blacks also are my neighbors and as such, I have a Christian duty to love them.

If your tack is to make everyone feel guilty, then you will get more resistance than help.

[kwassa]

259. It isn't about the guilt, it is about responsibility

As we discussed in the other thread, it is about privileges that whites enjoyed that blacks did not. Basic rights operate as a privilege if they are not enforced for everyone, and are deprived from a certain group. That has happened based on gender and ethnicity in this country

I know you disagree strongly with that definition, but this is how basic human rights have functioned in this country historically.

There is no attempt to create guilt, not that there is anything wrong with guilt where it is deserved. It is about acknowledgment of the way things are in the racial reality of America today.

Whites have privilege because of the color of their skin in modern day America. This is a concept you are unwilling to accept.

[CTLawGuy]

263. I am unwilling to accept that concept

because it is unnecessary to anything we are trying to do!

Isn't it enough that blacks are treated unfairly?

What is the grand purpose of attacking white people as a whole?

I'll tell you what the grand EFFECT is... 10 solid red southern states.

[kwassa]

277. You can't know where you're going if you don't know where you've been

You want to engage in denial for the sake of political expediency. It won't work, it will blow up in your face.

You are also missing the point that the understanding of white privilege is not about either blame or guilt, but an observation of how things work in this country. If you want to fix something, you need to know where it is broken, or it can't be fixed. I don't get theh sense that you want to know that.

[CTLawGuy]

367. Isn't the problem that

blacks can't enjoy certain rights in society?

what we have are two different frames for the same thing.

You choose to view it as a group of evil oppressors enriching themselves as the expense of others.

I choose to view the problem as the fact that a certain group of people are not able to participate fully or equaly in our society because of discrimination due to the color of their skin.


I believe my frame is more correct.

Let me tell you why again.

A right is a benefit or freedom that is supposed to be unconditionally granted and that is considered central to human dignity and prosperity.

For example: a chlid has a right to be fed. If a child were NOT fed, society would rightly be upset.

A privilege is a benefit or freedom that is granted over and above what is considered essential for basic existence.

For example: a child may have a privilege to watch TV. If a child lost that privilege, society would not be upset.


Everything we talk about in terms of racial equality deals with RIGHTS. The right to equal treatment, the right to equal justice, the right to vote and have that vote counted.

A right is something no one should be ashamed of having. Whether white people have these rights or not is irrelevant to the fact that black people do not.

The problem is that blacks are denied these basic rights. The action is to work to restore them.

The problem is NOT that whites have rights. They SHOULD have these rights. Rights are not privileges. Privileges are unimportant.

No one is going to call social services because a child is not allowed to watch TV.

[kwassa]

407. we can repeat these arguments endlessly, but

this part of your argument isn't true:
"A privilege is a benefit or freedom that is granted over and above what is considered essential for basic existence."

This is your definition, and yours alone.

I will point out, however, that the concept of white privilege as I have already expressed it is a common viewpoint in the black community and among black intellectuals. From the standpoint of those who have been deprived of rights, those that have them seem priviliged.

[CTLawGuy]

415. fair point

"I will point out, however, that the concept of white privilege as I have already expressed it is a common viewpoint in the black community and among black intellectuals. From the standpoint of those who have been deprived of rights, those that have them seem priviliged."


I can understand why they think that way. I just believe we should focus on restoring those rights to the black community, and frame it as such. We will face less hostility that way.

[wildeyed]

299. Empathy or guilt, what's the difference?

I think we are into semantics at this point, not any true difference of opinion.

I am not blaming anyone for anything. Just asking them to take responsibility. We as, a group, need to take responsibility for problems and inequalities that exist in our culture. We are not exempt for responsibility simply because we are well intentioned. If that makes them uncomfortable, so be it.

Since you brought up election 2000, let's go back to your point that black people need to just get over their anger about racism and get on with life.

The repukes told us to 'get over it' in 2000. Did you? I did not. I may never 'get over it'. Why? Because they cheated. Because it is unfair. They ridiculed us for complaining and that hurt too. So if you were black and had suffered terrible injustice at the hands of whites, were ridiculed when you tried to point out the inequities and then were told to get over it for the good of the nation, would you? I would not.

On edit: I am a white person. If I am making incorrect assumptions here about what it is like to be black in america, please let me know. I am using my own experiences to guess at the feelings of others, but I recognize that there are many issues I may not have taken into consideration.

[CTLawGuy]

369. ok, one by one

1."I am not blaming anyone for anything. Just asking them to take responsibility."

blaming = assigning guilt; taking responsibilty = accepting guilt;
the common thread is guilt. pointing fingers is not going to solve anything.

2. "We as, a group, need to take responsibility for problems and inequalities that exist in our culture."

I believe something that is slightly different. We as a society need to ensure that all persons, no matter their race, are treated fairly and equally in society. We DO NOT need to argue about the past to do this. I'm not saying IGNORE the past, but I'm saying use it as a guide for what needs to be done.

3. "e you brought up election 2000, let's go back to your point that black people need to just get over their anger about racism and get on with life."

Nowhere did I say that blacks had no right to be angry. However, stewing in anger over past events will NOT make them go away, and won't change anything. So, what's the point? It's a matter of practicality rather than morality.

4. "So if you were black and had suffered terrible injustice at the hands of whites, were ridiculed when you tried to point out the inequities and then were told to get over it for the good of the nation, would you? I would not. "

NOBODY is ridiculing anyone for pointing out inequalities. I recognize inequalities. What I am saying, is don't use what happened to black people in the past to:

1. Attack white people as a class.
2. Diminish the importance of racially offensive conduct directed at white victims.*
3. Justify a system where inequality is ok, as long as blacks are the ones who are advantaged.
4. Divide us.

*(This is truly what I don't understand. Do people believe whites DESERVE to have racial slurs hurled at them? Being offended by "cracker" means you're a racist and don't understand what happened to black people?)

[wildeyed]

400. guilt vs. responsibility......

Main Entry: guilt
Pronunciation: 'gilt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, delinquency, guilt, from Old English gylt delinquency
1 : the fact of having committed a breach of conduct especially violating law and involving a penalty; broadly : guilty conduct
2 a : the state of one who has committed an offense especially consciously b : feelings of culpability especially for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy : SELF-REPROACH
3 : a feeling of culpability for offenses

Main Entry: re·spon·si·bil·i·ty
Pronunciation: ri-"spän(t)-s&-'bi-l&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : the quality or state of being responsible : as a : moral, legal, or mental accountability b : RELIABILITY, TRUSTWORTHINESS
2 : something for which one is responsible : BURDEN

Not the same thing at all.


"Nowhere did I say that blacks had no right to be angry. However, stewing in anger over past events will NOT make them go away, and won't change anything. So, what's the point? It's a matter of practicality rather than morality." I don't believe that any white person has the right to say that to black people. Sorry, we don't live in their reality. We don't get to tell them what they can and can't be angry about. It is condescending to do so.

I do not believe that we can make anymore progress on racial issues in this country with out having a serious national discussion about slavery. The wrong was too grievous. The effects are still evident. A discussion must ensue and amends need to be made. Pushing it under the carpet because it is inconvenient for white people to examine will not make it go away, just let it fester more.


1. Attack white people as a class.
I don't believe that black people have the power to attack white people as a class.

2. Diminish the importance of racially offensive conduct directed at white victims.*
If you believe that cracker is the equivalent of the n word, you need to get educated. Go read some american history and get back to me.

3. Justify a system where inequality is ok, as long as blacks are the ones who are advantaged.
WTF are you talking about? Where in our system are blacks advantaged? Is it the racial profiling by police officers or the making less money for the same work that is so desirable?

4. Divide us.
Too late. Enslaving an entire race for the finacial gain of another is divisive.

*(This is truly what I don't understand. Do people believe whites DESERVE to have racial slurs hurled at them? Being offended by "cracker" means you're a racist and don't understand what happened to black people?)
Nobody deserves to be insulted. But it happens. And yes, if you think that cracker is the equivalent of the n word, you need to get educated.

C Ya!

[CTLawGuy]

404. I feel like I'm not getting through

you completely missed the point of my last post.

guilt vs. responsibility
Do you ever watch law & order? Do you understand that responsibility IMPLIES guilt? If you are responsible for an act of murder, you are guilty of that act. Courts try to prove that all the time.

black people and being angry
Again, nowhere did I say blacks have no right to be angry. I did comment on the practical infeasibility of harping on the past, rather than focusing on the situation today. History will never change, no matter how angry you are, or how much white people apologize for it. The only difference we can make is today. Its ok to discuss slavery so we can understand what happened, but shouting about slavery till we're blue in face won't erase it.

"1. Attack white people as a class.
I don't believe that black people have the power to attack white people as a class."

yes they do. I could walk right down the street find a black person and have him read an anti-white statement, thereby attacking the white class. Furthermore, if we assume your statement is true, there is a way for WHITE people to attack white people as a class, using the history of the treatment of black people. Surely a white person, in your mind, has such power. It is equally as wrong.

"2. Diminish the importance of racially offensive conduct directed at white victims.*
If you believe that cracker is the equivalent of the n word, you need to get educated. Go read some american history and get back to me."

Why does it matter whether the C-word is the equivalent of the N-word? Aren't they both wrong in principle? Shouldn't it be a principle that we don't attack each other in a racial way? I mean, the N-word didn't ALWAYS have that history. the history had to DEVELOP at some point, therefore there was a point where the word DIDN"T have its current connotation. By your logic, since history is SO IMPORTANT, there was a time in this society when using the word would have been ok.

I disagree. There is a moral principle whereby we do not insult people's races. What the history is is irrelevant. We shouldn't have to wonder whether there's a history.

So to recap:

under your thinking: N-word is wrong today because of the history of that word. Logical derivation of that belief was that at some point way back in time, there was no history of racial emnity, so therefore, you would not believe the use of the word to be wrong, AT THAT TIME.

under my thinking: N-word is never ok, because it is wrong in principle to insult another person's race.

"3. Justify a system where inequality is ok, as long as blacks are the ones who are advantaged.
WTF are you talking about? Where in our system are blacks advantaged? Is it the racial profiling by police officers or the making less money for the same work that is so desirable?"

Many people on this thread excuse the black girl's comment because she is black and insulting a white boy. If the races were reversed and she said the N-word, these people would be outraged. How is that fair?

"4. Divide us.
Too late. Enslaving an entire race for the finacial gain of another is divisive."

You completely miss the point. So you're saying "its ok to be divisive because HE STARTED IT, WAAAAAH."

[Karenina]

406. Many people on this thread excuse the black girl's comment...

Reading comprehension is your friend. No one is giving name-calling a free pass... :eyes:

Try this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3118323&mesg_id=3128628

It's called "connecting the dots."

[donheld]

424. Karenina you are exactly right.

If this thread is any indication, race realations are a real mess in this country. DUer's can't even smell the racism.

[kwassa]

410. You are not getting through because you really are wrong

You love to deny history, which is the MAJOR error in all your posts! I also don't ever get the sense reading your posts that you know very much about the history of racial relations in this country.

you say:
"Again, nowhere did I say blacks have no right to be angry. I did comment on the practical infeasibility of harping on the past, rather than focusing on the situation today. History will never change, no matter how angry you are, or how much white people apologize for it. The only difference we can make is today. "

THEY ARE DIRECTLY CONNECTED. HISTORY CREATED THE RACIAL PROBLEMS OF TODAY IN A CAUSE-AND-EFFECT RELATIONSHIP.

Excuse me for shouting, but I really think you don't get it. Wildeyed is 100% write in what he said.

in brief quoting both of you:

Wildeyed:
"I don't believe that black people have the power to attack white people as a class."

They don't. Black people don't wield POWER over white people, so they can't.

You:
"Why does it matter whether the C-word is the equivalent of the N-word? Aren't they both wrong in principle? Shouldn't it be a principle that we don't attack each other in a racial way? "

Once again, HISTORY. The reason that "nigger" is so charged as a word is because of the HISTORY of it's use, where white held total power over blacks. Cracker has no such history, and very few whites are offended in its use by people who have no power over them.

[CTLawGuy]

414. so if the

N-word had no history, you would believe it would be ok to use?

You think it would be ok to insult a black person's race if there wasn't a history of it?

you may be surprised that im not AS interested in HOW the racial problems happened as I am in that they DO happen.


Not that history cannot clue us in into what problems are. But we should not use history to excuse the use of racial insults against whtie people.


Racism had to start at some point. If you and I both lived at that point, we would handle it differently.

If someone used the N-word to intentionally slur a black person, I would say "that is wrong. It's harmful to slander someones race."

you would say "its not a big deal, there's no history, after all racism hasn't existed yet."


Regarding your "power" calculus...

If a straight black female called a white gay man a "fag", would that be insulting? Would that mean that the black female has "power" over the white gay male? Or is it excusable because the gay man could use his magical whiteness power to rebuff her?

[kwassa]

419. I am not surprised by any of your arguments

Darboy:
"You think it would be ok to insult a black person's race if there wasn't a history of it?"

I don't think the insult would be meaningful, just as "cracker" is not meaningful, and probably not even racial. I don't know anyone, aside from a couple of posters here, a small minority of the white posters, who find "cracker" offensive.

"you may be surprised that im not AS interested in HOW the racial problems happened as I am in that they DO happen."

I am not surprised. I think you know very little of history at all, from what I can see. That's the problem.

Are you an engineer?

"Regarding your "power" calculus...

"If a straight black female called a white gay man a "fag", would that be insulting? Would that mean that the black female has "power" over the white gay male? Or is it excusable because the gay man could use his magical whiteness power to rebuff her?"

Power comes in many forms. That black female would have a great deal of power in the black community, where homophobia is much more entrenched and vilified, and would have power over a black gay man. I doubt that her use of the word would have much effect on a white homosexual, as he would have no particular reason to care about her opinion, unless she was his boss. See?

There is a whole body of theory that racism doesn't exist unless there is a power differential to impose it on the weaker group.

[fishwax]

463. without the history, it wouldn't *be* insulting

context gives meaning, and the context in this case is centuries of brutal oppression. The historical context for cracker is quite different, and claiming the two words are somehow on equal footing, as many on this thread have, is absurd. And pointing out the fact that cracker is not as bad as the n word is in no way offensive or insulting to whites, unless whites are looking for something to be offended about.

Cracker wasn't even a racial insult, but one that was born of class bias and came into more diverse use characterizing behavior rather than race.

[Buffy44]

373. Think on that a minute...

"You have to include our history in that analysis, a history that includes slavery, Jim Crow and unequal treatment still."



This young lady is in middle school. She did not experience slavery nor did she experience Jim Crow. At her age, I doubt she has experienced much unequal treatment at this point, other than the exclusion that I'm afraid all middle-school aged children experience by their peers at one time or another.

So when does it stop? How many generations get a pass on being rude and ugly, and on race-bating...before it stops? And how is allowing this type of behavior supposed to promote the racial healing that is supposedly the goal of race relations here in the year 2005?

Remember:

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Letter from Birmingham Jail' in Why We Can't Wait, 1963

[Karenina]

422. Well OP Mom has already set in motion

the machinery to LYNCH THE LITTLE PICANNANY BITCH. See post #9. Happy now? Then read my post #401 up at the top and consider the agenda.
Happy now?

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CTLawGuy]

130. my green car example

is supposed to poke holes in your idea that racism can only be defined by the victim.

[CTLawGuy]

114. I love radical logic

where equality is racism, and racism is equality.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

39. True

but the right wing really tries to push the idea of "reverse racism" while convienently ignoring racial profiling and the fairly large number of hate crimes commited against blacks and Jews by neo-nazis and the Christian Identity folks.

[MsTryska]

68. now i totally understand why the White Man is so angry.....

the Man is keeping him down.

[Pithlet]

312. LOL! Tell me about it.

Let me tell you about the time I was denied housing because I'm white... Oh wait. That never happened to me. Ooh, what about my ancestors who were enslaved...Wait. They weren't. Or the growing group of people of another race who want to continue and strengthen the institution of racism against me the US. You mean, they doesn't exist? Oh. That's right. I'm white. Or all the times I've been stared at by the employee while shopping to make sure I didn't steal anything. Oops. That rarely ever happens to me. I'm white. But, all the times someone called me a cracker really hurt and made me feel marginalized and afraid. But, that hardly ever happens to me, either. In fact, I don't think it ever has.

Some people in this thread really have no clue about anything outside of their perspective. It's sad.

[pnb]

298. No such thing as "reverse racism"

There is just racism.

[Stop_the_War]

23. You shouldn't be angry....

[jody]

24. I see you are from North Carolina. If you were from Georgia it would

be OK to call him a "Cracker". In NC he should have been called a "Tar Heel".
:hi: from a Cracker now living in Alabama with many Tar Heel relatives.

[NervousRex]

25. cracker=racist

I'd be a bit pissed-off if anyone called me or my child a "cracker".

[qanda]

26. Who said it and why?

I don't think anyone should ever call names, but it helps to have a bit of context.

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v3.0
==================



This week is our first quarter 2005 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend almost entirely
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[LiberalinNC]

37. Hey hey now...I just did last week...

can't afford to give this week too! (sorry)

[WMliberal]

51. hey Mr. Bot!!! I was wondering when you'd show up!

It's good to see you.

Oh and btw, no. Sorry. I'm trying to stave off foreclosure. I'm too poor this quarter.

[CTLawGuy]

33. by whom was he called this name?

did it upset him?


I think in general people have the right to FEEL offended (as opposed to the non-right to "not be offended".)


You will get a litany of excuses from authoritarians for why you should not be offended because you are part of the "white oppressor class", and the "words don't really hurt you because of your 'privilege'."

[ultraist]

105. No one here said that name calling is ok

What we said was that cracker and "nigger" carry far different implications and messages.

Jimmy Crack Corn, Crack the whip, choose a theory, NONE of them are racial slurs to oppress whites.

Of course, name calling is offensive, but I find it more offensive when someone uses physical force to gain control. Sticks and stones...

You seem very unfamiliar with the black culture and the history of discrimination and violence against blacks. Maybe we are more of an aurthority on the subject than some. Perhaps if you spent some time with blacks, you may feel differently about this subject.

[CTLawGuy]

112. not talking about

"oppression", we are talking about "insulting".

and how dare you assume that I am ignorant about how blacks have been treated historically. It's people like you who constantly insult other people, that keep race relations cold.

I know about the whites-only water fountains, I know about Rosa Parks, I've read the Amistad case, as well as the Dredd Scott decison, I've read Uncle Tom's cabin. I'm well educated on this.

All of those things are IR-REL-E-VANT to whether "cracker" is insulting or not.

Yes, I belive the N-word is also insulting, that's why I don't use that word. Its hurt doesn't dimish the hurt of other words though.

[William Bloode]

137. So by your logic

Ni**** would be ok to then, It's origins are the Spanish for black or Negra. It was butchered southern style into Negro, nigra, and ni****.

So do the origins of the word really make any difference? If it's meant to be offending to the other race, no matter the words origins it is racist.

Also there is no such thing as reverse racism Racism is racism no matter where it comes from, or who it is directed at. You cannot caudal on side and say thats ok, yet minimize the impact of the other.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

143. That's not a valid comparison.

Cracker, as in the cracker that we eat, is not offensive at all. It is when it is applied to a person that we are talking about. And THAT situation is still not as offensive as N****r for all the reasons that have already been stated.

The spanish word for black is neither here nor there. we are talking about when it is applied to a person. And there is only ONE case of that and ONE way that that can be taken.

[William Bloode]

148. Excuse me...

But how is such a seemingly harmless word as cracker, like if you take your definition soda cracker any different from another such seemingly harmless word as the bastardization of negra or black.

I was trying to show it's not the word that has any power it is the emotion and intent behind the word.

Kinda makes your point pretty moot as far as i see it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

153. Because...

cracker when first applied to a person (thus a new meaning) was not demeaning.


n****r when first applied to a person (thus ITS new meaning) was very derogatory.

[William Bloode]

156. Nope,

Thats not an excuse, nor does it make one lick of sense. Try harder next time.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

159. It doesn't make sense to you, because you have already made up your mind

about what you believe. Zeus himself could come down and tell you you're wrong, and you wouldn't believe it. You've made your choice, so don't bother pretending you're open to other ideas.

If you honestly think they are the same, then there's nothing anyone can say to convince you. Maybe you'll get lucky and be reincarnated as a black man. Then see how you feel.

[William Bloode]

168. I already know what racism feels like.

Being a Native American i know all about racsism thank you. Blacks are not the only ones who suffer from it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

169. Theirs is a different kind of racism.

My family is made up of indigenous people of Mexico, or actually, what is now Texas. I know what racism feels like too. But it's not the same racism that african americans feel. Discrimination isn't the same for everybody just because it falls under the same word.

[William Bloode]

183. Hahahahahahahahahahaha!

So now racsism for Native Americans is different lol! Murder, oppression, genocide, and the theft of a continent is not suffering enough? How is what we went through any less oppresive than slavery?

Man your sense of logic is sooooooo screwed.

Again rascim is racsism, no matter who does it. Hate speech and name calling is hate speech and name calling no matter the color of the caller.

[mark414]

185. do you mind if i ask...

why you as a native american are personally offended by the term cracker? it's not directed towards you so what's the deal...?

i'm white as rice and i could care less...

just asking...

[William Bloode]

200. Sure I don't mind.

I personally am not. I just find it funny that some cannot except the fact that "cracker" is meant as a deragatory term. You can not mince it up here and there. Hate speech is hate speech plain and simple, no matter where or who it comes from.


I know what racsism is i have felt it. No child of any color needs to feel rejected because of color or class. We all as one people need to work towards being more civil to one another, no matter the color. Thats why i have concern, i want to live in a friendlier world for all of us. But minimizing deragatory speech and it's possible effect, and/or meanings does not further that goal. It infact hinders said goal.

I would feel just as concerned if the term was Ni****, Sp***, Ki***, etc. It all about compassion for the feelings of us all.

[mark414]

216. you have a very good, albeit idealistic point

my problem with comparing words like cracker and nigger and placing them on equal footing means that one also has to assume that the subjects of both of those terms, white people and black people, are also on equal footing.

unfortunately in our society this is not true.

there is a lot of power behind the word nigger, or spic, or kike, or any other of those terrible words (hell they used to call my relatives niggers too, but they were irish).

i don't think cracker or honky is comparable with nigger because one word holds power and the other does not. i would compare it to a woman trying to come up with a word to use against a man as powerful as the words bitch or slut, or a gay person trying to come up with a word to use against a straight person as powerful as faggot.

2 examples:

me, and my real-life friend. i am a straight white male. my friend is a black female lesbian.

straight white male = breeding cracker bastard

black female lesbian = nigger bitch dyke

now i know that sounds kind of silly, but i guess that was the point, to show how silly it is to try to compare the two. but ultimately we share the same goals, all being one people working towards the same goals. that is where i can agree with you and that is where i will work with you.

[Buffy44]

375. But in this case...they are on equal footing...

"...my problem with comparing words like cracker and nigger and placing them on equal footing means that one also has to assume that the subjects of both of those terms, white people and black people, are also on equal footing."


The white boy and the black girl were indeed on the same footing here. Both are children, both were under the same authority, required to follow the same rules, and neither had any more power over the other. Had the white child called the black child the "n" word...his word would have had no more power than the black child calling the white child a word that insinuates he is a racist, such as cracker.

Look..if I have two kids, and the older used to pop his younger brother on the head for 5 years - simply because he was bigger and could get away with it. That doesn't mean that 5 years down the road, if the younger gets into sports and gets buff while the older is a bookworm and is weaker...that I'll allow the younger to beat his older brother to right the wrongs of the past.

Two wrongs don't make a right. And wrongs done today don't do anything to fix, alleviate nor avenge wrongs from the past.

[mark414]

387. not this specific situation

just in general

we do things everyday to reinforce it and we don't even realize it. it's like being fish in water. you don't know what water is, you don't know that you're in it. you just are. and that's the problem. no one knows.

[ultraist]

440. They are on equal footing in a Cary, NC public school?

WHOA!
:nuke:

NOT HARDLY! Let's IGNORE the FACTS that shows racism exists in our society including in our public schools! Can you really honestly say that this black girl has equal access to opportunity?

BTW, Lawton Chiles often refers to himself, as a proud cracker. It is NOT a racial slur and in no way carries the same weight as the word "nigger."

Let's not forget that this white boy physically took the ball from her. HE is the one who should be reprimanded for using inappropriate physical force against a female!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

305. You fought to say the Confederate flag was part of Southern heritage

and not a racist symbol. If you really have concern for a friendlier world, how can you argue that it is ok to fly a symbol that so many people find offensive?

[ultraist]

318. Do you think "red skin" and cracker carry the same connotations?

Do you think they are weighted equally? What does it mean to a Native American who is called an uncivilized "red skin?" Does it carry the message of bloody scalpings and genocide? Or is it essentially harmless as cracker is?

I don't condone any racial slurs, but I am not really offended by the use of whitey or cracker. Whatever. My race was not brutalized and I don't fear that I will be targeted unfairly by the police or barred from access to opportunity based on the color of my skin. I know that when I walk into a public place, I will be amongst other whites, the majority. I know the dominant white culture very well and navigate through it very efficiently. There is little resistance for me. I don't have these fears hanging over my head.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

187. I didn't say that, you want to put words in my mouth.

I didn't say it was less oppressive. I said that it was different. Murder by knife is no better than murder by club, but they are different.

My family was kicked off our land which suddenly became part of the U.S. and sent back to Mexico. But at least they were sent back, not torn apart and sold. I'm not going to pretend that I understand what black americans are going through because I also happen to be discriminated against.

Can someone who is Irish say they know what you are going through? How about Polish? Italian?


Things are not black and white. They never are.

[SouthernDem2004]

40. Cracker is a term from slavery days it meant:

The person directly in charge of the slaves. Basicly a foreman that would directly oversee the work. He was called a cracker because of the whip he carried.

[deutsey]

245. I never knew that. It makes so much sense.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Bridget Burke]

43. You have determined that he never, ever uses any derogatory words...

Especially when he's away from home. Of course, he'd never hear those words while in the bosom of the family.

More information, please.

[LiberalinNC]

56. I don't allow them used in my home...

I don't use them, neither does my husband. I have taught my children NOT to look at the color of some one's skin, but look in their heart - if you don't like them for their personality, then that's ok, but you can't use the excuse of their skin tone for not liking someone.

[Tomee450]

197. Well,

I'm black and have been called nigger. I just told the person off and went about my business. Almost every child in my family at some time or other has also been called that slur. We responded by telling the children that they were not niggers and advised them to ignore the slur and not bother with the person who uttered it. Not once did we ever think of running to the principal's office. If you are hurt over your son being called a cracker, a name devoid of a horrible history, imagine how a black person feels when called a nigger. When the Klan members lynched black men women and children, they often chanted that vile word.

If school children are going to be running to the principal's office or parents always writing complaints over name calling, then you are going to find a lot of black parents also registering complaints since black students are called nigger and other slurs quite often in this country. Most black parents don't bother complaining to school officials at all. I think you should have told your son that some people are just ignorant, that he isn't a cracker, and let the incident pass.

This may not apply to you, but I believe that sometimes when white people start getting upset over a word like cracker, it's because they really want to use the word nigger and not be called on it. They don't want blacks to complain about a vile word that has always been used to make black feel inferior.

I've just been lurking. DU seems lately to have a lot of white posters who seem to believe that somehow the majority community is suffering from discrimination. I just don't get it. We African Americans are only a small percentage of the population yet some people seem to believe that we somehow can affect the lives of white people in a negative way. How can that be possible. We have no power in this country whatsoever.

[donheld]

334. I just don't get it.

In my own opinion being called a cracker isn't even close to the same as the *n*word. Some of these people are blowing this thing way out of purportion. In my 45 years of life nobody has ever called me a cracker and if they did, i'd say "so what." It's like hitting me with a wet noodle. We all know blacks start being called the N word from a very early age. For them it is more like being hit upside the head with a stick.

[Judi Lynn]

444. Good post. The difference between being called a "cracker" and

names others have had to endure without pity, and melodramatics is vast, beyond comparison. Some kid has been living a charmed life. He'll see it DOES get harder for many people who aren't heavily insulated.

I was startled when I saw the title of the original post. It seemed like a joke to me. Very glad to have read your comments.

[applegrove]

69. That is what GOP called Clinton at their cocktail parties the whole time

he was prez.

[applegrove]

71. Ask Bill how he took it? n/t

[Oreo]

74. I went to high school in Garner, NC

and I'd be the first to attest that racism is alive and well in the South.

I would have to agree with the other poster who said to tell your kid the sticks and stones thing. I know if I was called a cracker when I was young and people found out my mom wrote a letter to the principal I'd be the laughing stock of the school and my new nickname would be cracker.

As a Dad of a 2 year old (3 tomorrow!) I know it's tough to see bad things happen to your kids. Bad stuff happens... experiencing it and learning how to deal with it is necessary for a kid's development. Being shielded from dealing with it himself is not going to help him in the long run.

Just my opinion

[JohnnyCougar]

76. Just tell him that some people are rude idiots and to ignore her.

[Blue-Jay]

78. Cracka ass cracka...

[verdalaven]

383. Sorry, off topic, but

I love the squirrel/bush pic. I just don't understand it.

It is an enigma.

[MoonDance]

81. Blood Done Sign My Name

How about calling her "Peanut Butter ........ Prefer smooth or crunchy?"
and next time ask for the ball .........

Better yet! buy her (and your family) a copy of "Blood Done Sign My Name" by Timothy Tyson

http://www.ibiblio.org/wunc_archives/sot/index.php?p=101

[dsc]

82. I have gathered a bit of the context from the posts here

I don't know how four square works so I have no idea if he was supposed to or not supposed to take the ball. That would help to know. But, assuming he was, then she was out of line and should be dealt with accordingly. Name calling, no matter what the name, is unacceptable in a school setting. It is trash talk which often leads to fighting which leads to injured students. I think discussing it with the PE teacher would be a good idea (especially if this girl is constantly doing this).

[tinonedown]

83. I asked why

As an elementary student, I asked my friends why the word cracker was used towards whites. They said it was because we were white, like soda crackers.

[Toby109]

88. For some perspective:

For years Atlanta had a minor league baseball team called the Crackers. If the term were derogatory, I seriously doubt they would have used that nickname.

[ChairOne]

90. ROFL - riiiiiight....... sports teams would NEVER have derogatory names...

LOL - that's a good one!

EDIT: And toothpaste companies would NEVER make a brand called "Darkie"....

Funny how sensitive white folks are to "reverse racism", but fail to see any other kind....

[enigmatic]

93. You mean like the Washington Redskins?

Of course.

[Toby109]

98. I'm talking about Atlanta, Georgia from the 40s-60s.

My point was that if the white guys who chose the name had felt that "cracker" was an insult to white people, they would not have chosen it.

[ChairOne]

124. Useless example.....

for a variety of reasons, which even the example's originator should be able to think of....

[William Bloode]

146. Uh.....

I hate to tell you this but as a Native American i find the name "Washington Redskins" pretty darn offensive.

[seabeyond]

91. i dont think it is the same as calling a black person n*****

i know in the literal sense it is a duality.....but reality, white people werent ever and still are not treated as black people. how they used n***** as just common wording for description of black will never again be done in society in the same demeaning and subservient way.

it does however show the hatred on the black side of predujice and that it is festering too, along with all other people festering in hate, be it torwards christians, athiests, muslims, men, women, children, liberals, conservatives, french...........you name it, we hate

[youthere]

92. What kind? Triscuit?Ritz?Saltine?n/t

[donheld]

113. He's a cheez-it

[phylny]

95. Eh, my daughter's soccer team was called "white trash" by an

opposing team (and if you knew where and HOW some members of the opposing team lives, and where and HOW we live, you'd see it was more than comical).

We just ignored it. Kids do idiotic things.

If it happens again, he should tell the teacher so the girl in question stops saying nasty things.

[donheld]

103. Is this racist now?

[mitchum]

104. I find equal amounts of both overreaction AND reflexive guilt in this...

thread, but you know how we cynics are :)

[ultraist]

106. Not being in denial and promoting equality is not "white guilt"

Yet another term hijacked by the am radio repukes to criticize whites who accept the fact that racism is serious social ill and needs to be addressed.

I've heard repukes use this term in Affirmative Action discussions.

[mitchum]

107. I have to call my mom and tell her that I'm psychic

[mitchum]

127. Where did I say "white" guilt in my post?

Since you are intent upon putting words in my mouth, may I offer you something for yours?

However, since you use the word "hijacked" in your post, Am I to assume that you believe that the concept was once credible before it was hijacked? Is it no longer? Why?
Despite your snide little implication, I AM in favor of Affirmative Action. Always have been, always will be.

[Connie_Corleone]

116. Salted or Unsalted??

At least he wasn't called Peanut Butter.

:shrug:

[Pastiche423]

117. Oh good lord

Our country is going to hell in a fascist handbasket and you're worried about a black child calling a white child a "cracker"?

If only I had your worries.

:eyes:

[ken-in-seattle]

123. When I lived in NC I WAS a cracker...

[SemiCharmedQuark]

129. No.

The kid probably heard it from adults and used it because she was angry at your son. And it is nowhere NEAR as hateful as n****r. She was wrong to use it, but I doubt she did so with any other reason than just being angry at your son. She probably could have substituted it with "jerk" or "butthead". She was wrong to call names, because that is hurtful. But if you are going to get angry, it should be on that level. If some kid called your kid a jerk on the playground because he took a ball away, would you be angry? If you would, then you should be angry. If you wouldn't, then you shouldn't. However, if you would, you and your kid face a long road ahead into high school because high school is one ruthless place.

You SHOULD tell your son that he needs to learn some manners. You can't just take things from other people because you feel like it. Regardless of the other person's wrong behavior, his behavior was also wrong.

[William Bloode]

152. Yes it is as hatefull as ....

The N word. I was in prison for sometime, the standard derogatory term for whites by blacks was "cracker" They ment it to be demeaning and offensive, there was no love nor joking in the sentiment.

And for the record i sit in the middle on this one, i am not white, nor black. Deragatory speech is deragatory speech, no matter where it comes from. Yes it is a problem if kids are emulating it from parents. Thats how white learn their racsim is from their parents, for the most part racsim is learened behavior.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

157. No...it's not.,

One was, and is, a term by those in power to establish their power over another group of people. A kind of "don't you forget who's in charge" word.

The other...is an insult based on race. It carries absolutely no power behind it.

[William Bloode]

161. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

The term was never intended to have any kind of power Infact in the old days Ni**** was not considered as being very racsist. That power of the word came later. In the days past what blacks in the south found offensive was to be called a "boy" like "Blackboy".

[SemiCharmedQuark]

163. Um, yeah, well that word, n****r, IS very racist.

And the power comes from the fact that it is racist. Whites used it to express their power over slaves. What point are you trying to make?

Let me explain further...

They used it to designate their slaves from themselves. That may not have been considered "offensive" then because it was stating a fact. THEY are this, WE are that. But, now that we know that there is no distinction, to segregate by use of that word, is extremely offensive.

[greblc]

133. Yes you should. If your son had feelings enough to share...

the incident with you. You are your childs best advocate. Make sure the School is aware of the incident. Make sure the school documents it and gives you a copy. Should there be additional problems any documents may help resolve any further issues. Talk to other parents, see if this is a common problem at your school. Racisim is Racisim. The girl knew what the word meant. It was inappropriate.

[mark414]

135. No

i am a white man and damn if i had a nickel for every time i've been called cracker or honky i'd be loaded.

it's not a racist term because there's no power behind the word. every time i hear it used at me all i can do is shrug because it doesn't do anything to me.

if you think about it in the context of power then it all makes sense. what kind of power does the word cracker have? none? technically speaking, even calling someone a cracker GIVES them power as opposed to takes it away, if you look at the origin of the word (the whip cracker).

conversely, think about the word nigger. nigger has a lot of power behind it. i thankfully will never have the unfortunate experience of having that word lobbed my way because i'm white.

racism isn't just about discrimination, it is about the POWER.

[cags]

141. Cracker, Twinkie, Ghost

Your so white, when you stand by the wall no one can see you.

My daughter was the only white girl in her 7th grade class, she was also the smallest too. She was called cracker, twinkie, ghost etc. all the time and the kids weren't joking around.

Do you consider thier actions racist?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

145. That is a different example.

Your daughter did nothing to warrant those words in this situation. And the words were continuous, not just one time in angry response to something she did. I still don't believe their actions were racist, because they were kids repeating what they were told in their homes, but in that case, I believe talking to the teachers so she could explain to the children that those words were hurtful and why would be a good idea.

[cags]

150. That was last year, we moved out of the situation, but the teachers

were very supportive of my daughter, and did everything they could to look out for her, because she was physically threatened too. The school was really bad though, the kids had no respect for the teachers.

[DaCheat]

151. Just curious

Why wouldn't you consider angry comments based solely upon one's race racism?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

155. I would, except that these were kids.

And kids, I give the benefit of the doubt. Kids have not had a chance to form their own opinions yet, they haven't been out in the world. They only know what their parents teach them.


Clear enough?

[cags]

160. So your saying that thier parents are racist?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

164. I have no idea how their parents used the word. So how can I judge?

They may have said "Someone called Jimmy a cracker at work today, and he was very hurt"

And the kid gets the idea that it is a word to use when you want to hurt someone.

Or the kid could have heard it on TV. Or at the movies. Or from friends. Or from any multitude of other places.

[cags]

171. Are you serious? You cannot be that naive

These kids used these words to put my daughter down and make her feel less than them.

They were not 6 yrs old, they were not repeating something they had no idea what it meant.

Have you ever been around 12 yr olds, they are not stupid, they know exactly what they are saying.

If white kids called the only black child in a class the N word all the time would you call that racist, or just repeating something they think is hurtful. By the time a kid is 12 they know better.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

176. Yes, I know what 12 year olds are like.

And I know that twelve year olds ARE young. If the kids were 10, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. 2 years doesn't make one worldly. They haven't lived on their own to see other opinions. And since you said the school was not very integrated, they obviously have not been exposed to many other ideas or views.

I was replying to the other poster in regards to the Original post, not your daughter. But, in the case of your daughter, I would STILL say it wasn't racist. How are they supposed to think that word is racist? Who would tell them that it was? Do you think that kids have THAT good an idea what racism is? I doubt it. If your daughter were fat, they'd probably make fun of her for that. Kids may not be racist, but they do pick on those different than they are. That is why, in that case, those kids needed to have someone point out what they were saying. If they continued AFTER that, then it would be racist.

[cags]

194. Thank you for admitting it. It did continue after it was pointed out to

them. And they knew full well what they were doing. I taught an art class in that school, and I think you would be surprised at what these kids know at that age.

From your responses you seem to be underestimating young teenagers, that is a mistake. There are kids having sex at 12 and 13, they know a lot more than you are giving them credit for

[Tomee450]

217. The sad thing

about this is that that white mother's complaint will likely cause problems for the black child. A black mother's complaint would not have the same effect for a white child. The black student is likely to be branded and treated differently by teachers and the principal. I've seen this before. A black child misbehaves and that misbehavior becomes part of his record. He is also more likely to be suspended. The white student misbehaves and his parents get a call from the principal to come in to discuss the matter. The white child is allowed to stay in school. If this young black girl suffers repercussions, she will likely feel distrustful and resentful of whites and this will linger for a long time. I can imagine what made that child behave as she did. Here was a white boy taking a ball from her. She probably thought he did that to her simply because she was black and acted because of that belief. Many black children experience racism in gym classes and on the playground.

[fishwax]

242. Good points, Tomee450

Another example of white privilege, and a great one since it is one that most white people wouldn't be aware of without having it pointed out. But complaints of white parents/students (or customers/consumers in the wider business world) are often given more creedence and taken more seriously than those of minorities.

[ultraist]

333. Oh, ya. When my son's teacher emailed me to come into a conference

on the second day of Middle school because he had been "extremely disruptive" by tapping his pencil on the desk, they called a team teacher meeting and made a big fucking stink about this and mentioned ADD & special edu (he's black).

When my husband and I arrived at the school to find the team of white teachers waiting for us in the hall, their jaws dropped to the floor when they saw we were well dressed white people!

They were literally, stuttering...'you are xxx's parents?' Needless to say, the pencil tapping incident immediately deescalated into a 'welcome to the school' meeting and there was NO MORE MENTION OF ADD.

This is just the type of fucking BS that goes on. What would have happened if we were poor blacks? Would we have been treated the same? I HIGHLY fucking doubt it.

[Pithlet]

342. That's awful.

Just one more example of white privilege that most people aren't even aware they have.

[ultraist]

353. This is one of MANY bizarre experiences we've had

But I have to tell you, the worst situations I've seen has been doing volunteer work. It's mind blogging how fucked over blacks are. And I've only seen the tip of the iceburg.

I had a SW professor who did a study on institutionalized racism in the Child Protective Services programs to identify how blacks are diproportionately substianted for abuse and have their children removed more frequently than whites, for similiar infractions. Now that is a frightening thought, that the State has that much power over you, that they may steal your children and put them in foster care, LEGALLY, if you step a little out of line. I wish I still had a copy of her study.

[Misunderestimator]

473. Damn, that's one hell of an experience...

and you're right... no way would you have been treated the same.

[tralfaz]

203. YES n/t

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HEyHEY]

175. YEs you should be angry

[jeffrey_X]

193. I was called cracker once at a gas station in Atlanta....

I wasn't mad or angry. I was more disappointed than anything else, because the guy had no clue that my wife is African American and I'm an anti-racist activist.

It was quite profound actually. It made me really understand what it is like to be judged only by the color of your skin.

[carolinayellowdog]

195. CLASS is the elephant in this room

and all too many DUers are playing precisely the game that rich whites have wanted us to play for centuries. There's a hell of a lot of snarky attitude in this discussion on both sides, and no one seems to notice the point that is most salient. Rich whites have promulgated hatred between blacks and poor whites to sustain their own privileges over both for a very long time. "Cracker" isn't a racist epithet per se-- it's heavy with CLASS contempt-- black hatred of POOR whites. Just as "nigger" expresses poor white hatred of blacks. WHO IS SERVED BY THIS? Rich whites who perhaps wouldn't use either term-- who would use "cullud" or "country" but are happy to oppress both groups and pit them against one another.

[QC]

201. Amen!

maybe someday the so-called "Left" in this country will rediscover class. Until we do that, we're just doing the rich folks' work for them.

[William Bloode]

205. Very good point.

We should all be working towards more compassionate relations with one another no matter the color. Hate speech is hate speech and is harmfull to us all no matter where it comes from, it just keeps us divided.

[mitchum]

218. You are absolutely correct, but ignoring class in favor of race also...

allows economically privileged "liberals" to enjoy a smug nights sleep after professing how non-racist they are. I see it right here every freaking day from the usual suspects.

[Pithlet]

252. Ignoring

the fact that a poor white person still has a societal advantage over a poor black person does none of us any good. Classism is a huge problem, and classism and racism are definitely intertwined. But, racism in and of itself DOES exist. Discussing this doesn't mean someone is smug and self righteous. One doesn't even have to be privileged to see it.

[ultraist]

336. It's important to consider the interlocking effects of racism & classism

I agree. This is 101 level sociology! It's not that complex.

24% of blacks in poverty
8% of whites in poverty

WHY is this? Should we ignore and deny this serious problem? It would be foolish NOT to consider all of the dynamics at work.

Racism manifests in a different way than does classism. They are not the same thing, even though they are both forms of oppression.

Furthermore, someone who experiences more than one form of opression suffers more severely.

Black women are the poorest segment of our society. WHY is this? Racism, sexism, and classism are all working against her, that's why.

I choose not to be in denial of the FACTS.

[Pithlet]

338. I agree

Although I think you have the numbers backwards. I don't agree with the other poster who says that racism is just a construct devised by the rich to keep the poor down. That is way to simplistic.

[ultraist]

355. the numbers...

The percentage of blacks in poverty is 3x as high as whites. The TOTAL percent of those in poverty is 44% whites (because they are more whites in society) and 56% minorities.

In other words, there is a disportionately high number of blacks in poverty. Does that make sense?

I got the stats of the US Census Bureau.

[ultraist]

374. Who is denying classism? Racism and classism BOTH exist.

Sending nasty PMs mitchum and attacking someone based on wild accusations when one has no knowledge of a person's life is what people with no class or courage do. I bet you would not dare say those things to my face in person or to my husband's face, would you?

I suppose some resent people who are better off financially due to their classism, I believe they call this "trailer trash mentality".

I'll tell you once again, my BLACK son faces racism even though he is upper middle class much more than he faces classism. For you DENY HIS EXPERIENCES that I have witnessed and he has reported is extremely arrogant.

BTW, I posted your PM for ALL TO SEE. The first comment was something about closet racist. hmmmm...

[Misunderestimator]

482. Your narrow definitions don't serve the argument well...

You say:

"'Cracker' isn't a racist epithet per se-- it's heavy with CLASS contempt-- black hatred of POOR whites. Just as 'nigger' expresses poor white hatred of blacks."

How is "nigger" poor white hatred of blacks? You are trying to interject "poor" into that side of the equation where it does not belong (not only just "poor" whites hate blacks). And you are trying to remove the non-black side from the other (more than just "blacks" use the term cracker for whites) to make it seem like these terms are mirror images of eachother and just as destructive, and it is not true.

It is however, fascinating to see the lengths to which people will go to try to prove that the two words are equally damaging and hateful.

[Carolinian]

196. Yes. It's racist and shouldn't be tolerated.

[Booster]

198. I think one of the most frustrating things in the life of a black

person is that they have never come up with a word that really pisses us off, like we, unfortunately, did with our little class act "n" word. Did it really bother your son to be called a cracker? I wouldn't get angry about it; just teach your son not to retaliate by using the really hateful word. I think I would give the other kid some space on this one and hopefully they can work out their differences in some way except calling each other names. Just my opinion.

[Walt Starr]

207. A racial slur is a racial slur. Take it to the principal

Seriously, that teacher does not belong in the profession if she uses racial slurs with children. She should be fired.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

211. Teacher?

It wasn't a teacher, it was another kid.

[Walt Starr]

227. Sorry, then the kid should suffer the consequences of using a racial

epithet.

[dsc]

212. It wasn't the teacher using the slur

it was a kid.

[jdots]

209. this is a great time to teach your son where this comes from

my parents sat me down and explained why i was called a kike and alot of other swell things in school.Explain that it isn't about the names kids call each other ,thats it is about why. He will be bored but he will be wiser,then they can call him "smarty pants "
he will understand that when it happens.

[jeffrey_X]

215. Exactly!

nm

[raysr]

221. I assume you're in NC?

People in NC calling people in NC crackers, that's great!

[sendero]

224. I try hard..

.... to make sure the things I believe are fair to everyone, not just knee-jerk reactions to the injustices of the past.

That girl should not have called your son "cracker", but it is really the moral equivalent of a white person calling someone "nigger"?

No, it isn't IMHO. That doesn't mean that I think "reverse racism" is ok, it just means that, to me, the actions reflecting such racism have to rise above a petty insult.

I don't think one can say with a straight face that a white person calling a black person "nigger" is a petty insult, the baggage associated with the word is enormous and real.

I'd talk to my son about both words, and try to make him understand that he was insulted - but not to the level that any action would be appropriate.

[Walt Starr]

226. In other words, you apply a double standard to racial epithets

:eyes:

[sendero]

229. Yes.

Because there was never a time in history that a white person was made to feel inferior with the word "cracker".

[Walt Starr]

231. BULLSHIT!

I have personally been made to feel inferior by the word "cracker", so your account is pure BULLSHIT!

[Pithlet]

253. No one is arguing that cracker isn't an insult.

But, you seem to want to ignore that it has been white people dominating blacks. That DOES matter. It's history. It is bad to call a white person a cracker, but it just doesn't have the weight of history behind it. It isn't "hate whitey" to acknowledge that. Hell, I'm as white as they come, and certainly wouldn't enjoy being called a "cracker". Really, your outrage is just a tad misplaced.

[Walt Starr]

257. No, it DOES NOT MATTER. A racist slur is a racist slur regardless

of the race of the person directing the slur or the race of the person the slur is directed at.

Settin up a double standard on racism is, in and of itself, RACISM and accepting a double standard about racial slurs is in and of itself RACISM!!!!!

[kwassa]

260. No double standard at all.

It isn't a double standard at all.

I'm white, if a black person calls me a cracker it means nothing to me. It is kind of quaint, actually. I see almost no whites in this thread, or at least nowhere near a majority, who are insulted by being called cracker.

If any black person is called nigger by a white person, they would be very insulted, due to the historical use of the term.

[Walt Starr]

265. A black man calling a white man a "cracker" is absolutely no different

from that white man calling the black man a "nigger"

[kwassa]

273. Sorry, it is about 95% different, based on relative histories

The comparison of these two insults being equal is silly.

[Walt Starr]

284. Considering these two slurs not being equal is racism

Plain and simple.

[kwassa]

311. No, it is history, not racism.

[Pithlet]

262. To say that it does not matter

is to ignore that racism is and has always been a problem. It is to ignore history. It is to ignore every insidious aspect of it.

It is NOT about a double standard. Why is ignoring that blacks have suffered from racism far more than whites okay? Why is it okay to ignore that? Why is it okay to say that "nigger" and "cracker" are exactly equal, when they are not? They are both insults. They are both racist. They are both wrong. But they are NOT equal.

[Walt Starr]

264. To say that it DOES matter is to say one race is superior to another

and is a racist statement in and of itself.

By saying that calling a white person a racist slur is okay but calling a black person a racist slur is not okay is RACISM!

[Pithlet]

267. It does not.

Acknowledging racism and history does not say that one race is superior to another. That is ridiculous! To say that context matters is not saying one race is superior to another. To say that the history of racism lends context to a racial slur does does not say that one race is superior to another.

And, for the second time, calling a white person a racist slur is NOT okay. That isn't the argument. I double checked, and NO ONE in this thread has said that. The argument is that context matters. The history of racism and slavery lends context to racial slurs against black people. It isn't there for white people, because we did not suffer the same history. That's a fact.

[Walt Starr]

268. No, you're saying that a racist slur against one race is WORSE

than a racist slur against another race, and that double standard is RACISM plain and simple.

[Pithlet]

269. NO! I did not say that.

I said that they are different. There is context, which is why it may be more hurftul to call someone a nigger. But, I did not say that one is better or worse than the other. No one has. Read my posts again. And those of others in this thread while you are at it. Then, maybe you'll see that your outrage is misplaced at best.

[Walt Starr]

270. NO, that's PRECISELY what you said AND YOU JUST SAID IT AGAIN

THEY ARE NO DIFFERENT. A RACIST SLUR IS A RACIST SLUR REGARDLESS OF THE RACES INVOLVED!

[Pithlet]

271. Nope. Sorry. I didn't say it.

They are both racist slurs, and they are both wrong. Yep, I believe that is what I said.

[Pithlet]

280. Let me try something different.

I've been called a breeder. It did hurt my feelings, and it was wrong of the person to call me that. But, should I be able to claim the same outrage as someone of the GBLT community being called faggot or queer? Why? I can openly go places with my spouse, whom I was allowed to legally marry. I was able to grow up and openly declare my crushes without fear of being beat up. I don't have a movement in this country declaring that my love for my husband is immoral and dirty, and that I should not be allowed to legally wed him. Do you honestly think I have the right to insist that people be JUST as outraged at someone insulting me because I'm heterosexual?

My whole point isn't that one racial slur is worse than the other, or that either one is okay. My whole point is CONTEXT. To ignore that context is a slap in the face to minorities everywhere. Just as to insist that people should be just as outraged at the heterosexual slur aimed at me would be a slap in the face to all my GLBT friends. And insisting that someone calling me a cracker deserves just as much outrage as a black person being called a nigger is a slap in the face to all that blacks have suffered at the hands of white people now and in the past. It's self absorbed bufoonery to insist those kinds of things.

[Walt Starr]

282. Slurs aimed at sexuality are slurs aimed at sexuality

I see no difference between the slurs.

[Pithlet]

285. So

You think that the abuses and oppression that the GLBT do not matter? That they have no right to more outraged at slurs aimed at them because of the things they suffer? That none of that matters? You would insist that someone insulting your sexuality (assuming you are hetero) should receive the exact same outrage, despite the fact that you haven't suffered the oppression they have? You would insist your GLBT friends be outraged for you in the same manor? You would ask them of that?

[Walt Starr]

286. That does not enter into the equation

A slur is a slur regardles of who aims it at whom.

[Pithlet]

287. Yes! It does enter into the equation.

Because you insist that it does not does not make that so. It enters into the equation because that is what slurs are all about! Your insistence that GLBT, blacks, and other minorities, along with everyone else, ignore that part of the equation is what I take issue with.

Yes. A slur is a slur. I agree with that. My point was never otherwise. But, you cannot ask a black person, or a gay person, to ignore the "equation", which is the suffering they have indured at the hands of the majority, PARTICULARLY if you're a member of that majority.

[Walt Starr]

No, it doesn't. Slurs are equally reprehensible regardles of who slurs who

and those who cannot see it are racists and/or hetero/homophobes.

And yes, a black man can be a racist. A gay man can be a heterophobe. Racism is repreehensible regardless of the race of the racist.

[Pithlet]

294. I give up.

Because everything you just typed? Was not my point.

If we're going to hurl baseless accusations, I'll rejoin the one you just threw at me: You can go on pretending that whites suffer just as much racism as blacks, and that heterosexuals suffer just as much oppression. Keep thinking that both are equal, therefore canceling out everything that blacks and the GLBT community have endured. There. How is that for passive aggression?

[Walt Starr]

295. Good

I accept you admit defeat.

[Pithlet]

296. How was that admitting defeat?

I concede no point that you have made. You can insist that you have a right to be just as outraged at being called a name as a member of a minority being victimized with a slur. Go right on ahead. I'll still hold my same opinion of such behavior as I did before.

[Walt Starr]

301. Quote" I give up"

You admitted defeat.

[Pithlet]

302. By "give up"

I meant that there is no way you're even going to get what I'm saying, because you keep repeating the same thing over and over, and basically accuse me of being a racist in the process, and ascribe points to me that I never made. You won't listen. You just keep holding on to the notion that racism isn't worthy of context. You won't see that a white person demanding the same outrage over being called a racist name is self absorbed buffoonery at best, because they're willfully ignoring the fact that they are a member of the majority, and all the privileges that entails. You insist that the fact that blacks have suffered more does not matter. I can't seem to get through to you.

I do promise you that if you ever assert this "right" to be equally outraged for yourself if you are a member of the majority and insulted, don't be surprised if you get a negative reaction. And it isn't racism on THEIR part.

[Walt Starr]

308. We'll just have to agree to disagree, then.

I think you have no clue as to my approach to the racism issue. I do not recognize there being different races.

When polled or questioned as to my race, I ALWAYS check "other" and write in HUMAN.

[Pithlet]

323. That's great. Really, I'm not being snarky.

I wish everyone thought that way. And if everyone else on the planet thought that way, there wouldn't be a problem.

Just don't forget that there are too many who do not think the way you do. You can't just ignore the problem and hope it will go away.

[ultraist]

360. DENIAL is NOT a fucking river in Egypt.

BTW, my first theory on the word cracker seems to have been confirmed by another poster! IT IS A STYLE OF ARCHITECTURE!!! THIS IS WHERE IT ORIGINATED. IT NEVER WAS AND NEVER HAS BEEN USED AS A FORM OF OPPRESSION.

I don't give a flying fuck how much denial rears it's ugly head on this board, I'll say it again: it is NOT THE SAME to use cracker vs. the N word.

[Tomee450]

381. Thank you for

your great efforts. However, it seems that some people do not wish to hear the truth about rampant racism that still exists in this country and the terrible effect it has on the lives of African Americans. Reading some of these posts leads me to believe that this country has a long way to go in the area of race relations.

[Pithlet]

396. What's frustrating me

Is all of the people who think that we're defending calling people names, or making excuses. That so completely misses the point. That isn't what anyone here is doing.

Excuse me. I'm going to go bang my head on the wall.

[Tomee450]

398. I share your frustration.

There is such a double standard applied when blacks are involved in a situation. We are told repeatedly to forget the years of oppression which included not only name calling, but extensive discrimination and sometimes murder. Yet here we have outrage at this child being called a name, a name that does not have an ugly history associated with unlike that other name hurled relentlessly at black people. We are told that African Americans are whiners playing the victim when we, after repeated acts of bigotry, complain. However it seems a white parent is justified in becoming outraged even to the point of complaining to the authorities and thus causing problems for a little girl. I don't support the name calling but the rage which this incident has caused is just not warranted.

[CTLawGuy]

370. so if you look back

before there was "history" was it ok, in your mind to call a black person the N-word before all the history?

[Pithlet]

377. No.

Because I have never said it is okay to call anyone hurtful names based on race.

[ultraist]

WTF? Prior to slavery?

I'd have to know the culture and the manner it was used. Where are you referring to? Africa? Before slaves were kidnapped and brought over on slaveships? I'm not familiar enough with African culture 200+ years ago to draw any reasonable conclusions.

I do know enough about American history and the current sociological climate of our country, to understand the academic writings I've read on this subject and I agree with the reputable scholars on this, including Cornell West. Have you read "Race Matters" ? Or any other scholarly writings on this issue?

Here's a start for you:

http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/Nation-3-27-95.htm

This Land Is My Land

Blacks and whites experience America very differently. Though we often inhabit the same space, we operate in very disparate psychic spheres. Whites have an easy sense of ownership of the country; they feel they are entitled to receive all that is best in it. Many of them believe that their country‹though it may have some faults‹is superior to all others and that, as Americans, they are superior as well. Many of them think of this as a white country and some of them even experience it that way. They think of it as a land of opportunity‹a good place with a lot of good people in it. Some suspect (others know) that the presence of blacks messes everything up.

To blacks there's nothing very easy about life in America, and any sense of ownership comes hard because we encounter so much resistance in making our way through the ordinary occurrences of life. And I'm not even talking here about overt acts of discrimination but simply about the way whites intrude on and disturb our psychic space without even thinking about it. A telling example of this was given to me by a black college student in Oklahoma. He said whites give him looks that say: "What are you doing here? "
"When do they give you that look?" I asked.
"Every time I walk in a door," he replied.
When he said that, every black person in the room nodded and smiled in a way that indicated recognition based on thousands of such moments in their own lives.

For most blacks, America is either a land of denied opportunity or one in which the opportunities are still grudgingly extended and extremely limited. For some -- that one-third who are mired in poverty, many of them isolated in dangerous ghettos -- America is a land of desperadoes and desperation. In places where whites see a lot of idealism, blacks see, at best, idealism mixed heavily with hypocrisy. Blacks accept America's greatness, but are unable to ignore ugly warts that many whites seem to need not to see. I am reminded here of James Baldwin's searing observation from The Fire Next Time:

[jeffrey_X]

403. Great stuff...as always, ultraist

nm

[ultraist]

385. The Politics of Denial, Roger Wilkins

http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/Nation-3-27-95.htm

The Politics of Denial

One of these political predators is Senate majority leader Bob Dole. In his offhandedly lethal way, Dole delivered a benediction of "let me now forgive us" on Meet the Press recently. After crediting affirmative action for the 62 percent of the white male vote garnered by the Republicans, he remarked that slavery was "before we were born" and wondered whether future generations ought to have to continue "paying a price" for those ancient wrongs.

Such a view holds that whatever racial problems we once may have had have been solved over the course of the past thirty years and that most of our current racial friction is caused by racial and gender preferences that almost invariably work to displace some "qualified" white male. Words and phrases like "punish" or "preference" or "reverse discrimination" or "quota" are dropped into the discourse to buttress this view, as are those anecdotes about injustice to whites. Proponents of affirmative action see these arguments as disingenuous but ingenious because they reduce serious and complex social, political, economic, historical and psychological issues to bumpersticker slogans designed to elicit Pavlovian responses.

The fact is that the successful public relations assault on affirmative action flows on a river of racism that is as broad, powerful and American as the Mississippi. And, like the Mississippi, racism can be violent and deadly and is a permanent feature of American life. But while nobody who is sane denies the reality of the Mississippi, millions of Americans who are deemed sane -- some of whom are powerful and some even thought wise -- deny, wholly or in part, that racism exists.

It is critical to understand the workings of denial in this debate because it is used to obliterate the facts that created the need for the remedy in the first place. One of the best examples of denial was provided recently by the nation's most famous former history professor, House Speaker Newt Gingrich. According to The Washington Post, "Gingrich dismissed the argument that the beneficiaries of affirmative action, commonly African Americans, have been subjected to discrimination over a period of centuries. 'That is true of virtually every American,' Gingrich said, noting that the Irish were discriminated against by the English, for example."

[sendero]

274. Sounds like..

.... a personal problem to me. You were never enslaved by anyone.

[Name removed]

243. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bouncy Ball]

228. I've called myself "cracker" before.

And I've called myself "whitie" and "honkey."

Sorry no constructive help here.

On edit: "All he did was take the ball the away from her during P.E. class."

I certainly hope, with all the indignation over being called a cracker, that you've addressed the issue that he took the ball away from her.

That would be the FIRST thing I'd address with my kid (and yes, I have one who is school-aged).

[Ezlivin]

250. My dad is proud of being a "Florida Cracker"

My wife and I looked into building a Cracker Style house. That's what it is called!

I grew up in Florida thinking that cracker was a positive thing. It was like slang for "native".

[ultraist]

358. That was my first stab at the meaning---I'd heard it before and ...

you've now confirmed that ! Thanks!

There are a couple of theories on the origins of that word and the connotations, NONE of which are racial slurs that carry a deragotory, violent, oppressive, meaning.

snip from link above:
Energy Efficiency & Environmental News: Down Home Design, Cracker Style1
Florida Energy Extension Service and Gary Cook2

DOWN HOME DESIGN, CRACKER STYLE
Introduction

[noonwitch]

230. It's a good opportunity to discuss racial issue with your kid

Also to teach him "I'm rubber and you're glue".

No name used negatively to describe white people comes close to the historical evil of the n word. Teach your kid to laugh it off and not be offended. He'll be happier in the long run for it.

[McCamy Taylor]

234. Dont be angry. Be sad. Then try to teach him how to teach others

to become more aware of the needs and feelings of others.

[theboss]

236. Was he called a "Cracker" or a "Cracker-ass Cracka"

Because, the second one really crosses the line.

[MsTryska]

337. *lmao*

i have been dying to throw "cracker-ass cracka" into this thread.



thanks for giving me an in!

[RetroLounge]

249. Is his name "Ritz"?

If someone called me or my kid Cracker, we would probably laugh.

That words doesn't mean a thing up here in Wisconsin.

"White trash trailer park redneck?" well yeah, that one does.

In fact, I've never heard cracker used in that context.

And it doesn't come close to the "n" word here either, no matter how much others think it does.

RL

[Ezlivin]

251. Cracker could mean...

cracker
n. One who breaks security on a system. Coined ca. 1985 by hackers in defense against journalistic misuse of hacker (q.v., sense 8). An earlier attempt to establish `worm' in this sense around 1981--82 on Usenet was largely a failure.

Use of both these neologisms reflects a strong revulsion against the theft and vandalism perpetrated by cracking rings. While it is expected that any real hacker will have done some playful cracking and knows many of the basic techniques, anyone past larval stage is expected to have outgrown the desire to do so except for immediate, benign, practical reasons (for example, if it's necessary to get around some security in order to get some work done).

Thus, there is far less overlap between hackerdom and crackerdom than the mundane reader misled by sensationalistic journalism might expect. Crackers tend to gather in small, tight-knit, very secretive groups that have little overlap with the huge, open poly-culture this lexicon describes; though crackers often like to describe *themselves* as hackers, most true hackers consider them a separate and lower form of life.

Ethical considerations aside, hackers figure that anyone who can't imagine a more interesting way to play with their computers than breaking into someone else's has to be pretty losing. Some other reasons crackers are looked down on are discussed in the entries on cracking and phreaking. See also samurai, dark-side hacker, and hacker ethic. For a portrait of the typical teenage cracker, see warez d00dz.

Taken from http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~beej/chg/defin.html

[Maat]

254. There is NO excuse for someone using insulting terms ...

NONE! No matter who it is.

I'm astounded at the replies to this thread.

Geeesh!

I'm glad my daughter goes to a little private school in California in which they learn to treat each other respectfully! No insult is tolerated - and we don't have to go into a deep psychoanalysis of what the speaker meant when the insult was uttered. It's just not tolerated. If you say one, you get to apologize.

I would take them both into the office, and they would be discussing how to interact respectfully the next time.

[Val]

258. There IS an excuse...

Political Correctness>>>>White Guilt>>>>Race Card Now Being Played Immediately>>>>Double Standard.

What in the obviousness of this truth and reality requires someone to hit "Alert"? The truth hurts?

[Maat]

261. I just don't have any idea what you meant.

My child is taught to respect another individual period. I was a social worker who interfaced with people of all races in the most difficult of circumstances - generally just after they had been arrested and were going to be going away for awhile - and they were hostile - and I was going to have to find a new healthy home for their children. My absolute rule was that we were going to talk to each other in a respectful manner, and that is what the children present saw. That is what we modeled.

Getting into an argument about the victims' race (of the insult) is just irrevelant, and non-productive.

I can acknowledge that, historically, blacks have undergone horrible traumas and been victim of horrible practices.

That is completely separate from excusing someone using a term like 'cracker.'

There is no excuse for that - ever.

When people bring up 'racism' in this thread, exactly what are they trying to do? Excuse that behavior? Provide an explanation for that behavior? What? It doesn't matter. It still has to be corrected. Nothing will improve until every child is taught to treat other individuals with respect. And excusing the child's behavior will not do anything toward that end.

I stand by my original position.

[Val]

275. I too support your original position.

But this discussion can NOT avoid the ugliness of racism. The flow of the terms in my post (an abbreviated version of my deleted post) is the reality of the world in which we live. There is a double standard that is expected of whites to accept and "deal with it".

And many in the PC world are quick to accept that double standard because of "White Guilt" over Civil Rights and Slavery...sins of some in our past generations.

[Maat]

292. I get it now. Thanks.

I wasn't offended - just didn't understand. Now I do. I acknowledge 'white guilt.' I acknowledge racism. Just feel we have to keep these kids' eyes on the ball - we behave respectfully. That's how to end it.

[BigMcLargehuge]

384. Fear not, Zorro is here to save you!

Now off to my next adventure!

[Cadence]

386. sweetums

:loveya:

[progmom]

394. .

:loveya:

[Pithlet]

304. In other words.

"I demand that people be just as outraged when someone calls me, a white person, a cracker as when someone calls a black person a nigger. Never mind that I haven't suffered racism in my lifetime nearly to the extent that most other black people have. Never mind that racism is still very much alive. None of that matters. I'm a white person, and someone insulted me for it! If someone isn't as outraged by that as the word nigger, then THEY'RE the racist! Even if white people don't and haven't suffered at the hands of an oppressive majority in the US. None of that matters! Wasn't slavery over a hundred years ago? I demand the outrage that is my due! And anyone that doesn't agree with me is just suffering from White Guilt PC crap."

That close enough?

[Val]

314. Close enough???

I guess I understand your rant...all things considered...but:

There are many whites, old and young alike, that are expected to accept slights and insults due to what I described in my post. And ONLY because of the color of their skin. That is racism.

Many white people and their kids today came from ancestors that in-fact helped African Americans through faith, commerce and service, as did my relatives. Why should I, or my future kids, have to accept being disrespected, called names etc.? Because of PC/White Guilt...and the color of our skin.

Is this not the reality of our society at this moment?

[Tomee450]

272. You can't be certain that

everyone in your child's school is treated respectfully. Black children at private schools do not escape racist remarks. Black parents can tell of terrible experiences their children have had at such schools.

While it's unfortunate and wrong that the child was called a cracker, they were still just children. White people have no idea how often black children have slurs hurled at them, not only the word nigger, but other vile names as well. We're aren't always running to school authorities complaining either unless the epithets are repeated constantly which would then be a form of harassment. My grandmother told me to just ignore the slurs, that this is America and I, a black child, could expect to called certain names.

Children will engage in name calling. It's a lot different when adults hurl insults, especially adults such as employers who have power over their employees. I think this situation could have been handled better. If the black child had no dislike of whites before, she probably will now and for a long time. Black children do not get over such incidents easily, especially since they will probably encountered more of such situations. As I said in an earlier post, this black child probably thought the white boy treated her as he did because she was black and unfortunately, she responded in the wrong manner.

[Pithlet]

255. Of course.

Talk to the teacher or principle. Bullying shouldn't be tolerated.

To others in this thread: History and context DO matter. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that, and it doesn't excuse ANY name calling. Some of the outrage in this thread against those who actually do want to admit that racism against blacks still exist and always have, and that it matters when names are called, is sad. Insulting a member of a race that has been subjugated in history, and calling attention to that fact, IS different than an insult aimed at a member of a race that has dominated in that same history. It DOES NOT MAKE IT OKAY. But, it IS okay to acknowledge the difference.

[clem_c_rock]

266. Tell him to get over it

And then quit wasting our time w/ these stupid posts.

[Bethany Rockafella]

289. Wasting our time?

It's good to talk about things like this.

[bush_is_wacko]

276. I'm not sure I know what that means. I think it is a term from the 30's

or 40's isn't it? I still have no clue what it means though.

[Coexist]

279. I'm in Florida and cracker is not a bad thing

in fact, Lawton Chiles' referring to himself as an "old,Florida cracker" and Jeb Bush's bemused look (he had no idea what a cracker was) was the straw that broke the back of Jeb's first campaign. Walkin' Lawton went on to win the Governor's race by a large margin.

So tell your son he is in good company.

BTW, the smaller older Florida homes are commonly called cracker shacks and people think it is a charming term.

I don't know if the meaning changes in the Carolina's but here it is like the word redneck - harmless and often applied to oneself with humor.

[txaslftist]

313. Does he crack things?

[Karenina]

317. OP mom

has disafappeared, having surely garnered enough support (with over 300 posts) to validate her efforts to insure her righteousness in putting this little demon bussed-in black bitch with a nassy mouf BACK IN HER PLACE. Goodnight Gracie! :silly:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

340. She already made her decision back BEFORE she posted #9

[Hugin]

324. I prefer to be called Mr. Cracker... TYVM. n/t

[Hugin]

327. Or if you know me real well...

You can call me Saltine. ;)

[CBGLuthier]

325. 64 uses of the word n***** in one thread

A new low for DU I would say.

Oh I know, you have to use it to discuss it.

Bullshit. I hate that fucking word and there is no excuse for it being on DU, except as a direct quote.

[ultraist]

339. We are discussing the connotations of the word

Have you read the posts? We are not "using" it as a racial slur.

It's important to discuss racism. I'm not sure what you mean by your comment, but it seems you haven't read the posts.

[CBGLuthier]

343. Read every one of them thank you very much

And I still say the word is wrong and has no place on a liberal board unless you are quoting someone.

The word is a slur by itself. Just because people are using hypotheticals makes no difference whatsoever.

[Pithlet]

346. I disagree.

I can understand the objection to using the word at all, but I do think there is quite a difference between calling someone the n word and using it in a discussion about racism and ethnic slurs. Would you honestly lump those in this thread who used the word with people who would call somene that?

Context matters.

[CBGLuthier]

347. No, I would not consider

Most of those who used it in this thread to be bigots and racists.

But I still stand by my original belief.

It's an ugly word and can be discussed without typing it out in full.

[Pithlet]

350. Okay.

In fact, I think I'm one that typed the word out. I felt ugly even typing it. I will abreviate it like a cussword from now on.

[ultraist]

357. Oh! I see what you are saying now.

I try to remember to put it in quotations. Maybe it is better not to write it out. I will give that some thought.

[DrWeird]

368. J*s*s F*ck*ng Chr*st! Are you fucking kidding?

What the hell is the difference between "nigger" and "n*****" except, maybe, six-year-olds who can't read might not understand what we're talking about?

In fact, I think people who have a problem with the word "nigger" in this context have a problem with race relations, since they'd obviously like to pretend the word doesn't even exist.

If you think somebody's a bigot, hit alert. People who actually spell out the word "nigger" in this thread are just being mature.

[ultraist]

376. Gave it some thought, read your post, and I agree, why NOT write it out?

[mark414]

388. that's how i do it

being afraid of the word doesn't help it go away

[DuaneBidoux]

344. Should you be angry? No. Indigent perhaps

Kids say stupid and mean things. They always have and they always will. Many of them don't understand what they are saying (although of course, many do). When I was growing up I said many mean things not understanding what they meant. The important thing is to teach your child that it is wrong, that it has nothing to do with her but is the problem of the child doing the name calling, and that you expect better from her than such behavior.

I've taken special (although quiet) pride, something my mom doesn't understand, in noting how my son (we are white) can be struggling to identify a child who may be happen to be black standing in a group of white kids and he'll be saying things like "see, the kid in the RED shirt, don't you see..." It's something even I have trouble doing--but I believe it is the ideal to be achieved.

[Maddy McCall]

361. You mean "indignant?"

[DuaneBidoux]

395. Yes, I didn't run spell check. This was my first

post after being banned for months--a little excited I was!

[rowire]

345. Is He White?

White men (or boys) should toughen up. Tell your son that however those words made him feel, it is not a fraction of the pain white men heaped upon non-whites for hundreds of years. This could be a good lesson for any white boy.

[redqueen]

351. I would be. I would talk to the teacher about it, too.

And if they weren't responsive, then I'd talk to the principal.

Bullying is bullying - it's unacceptable no matter what.

[ClassicDem]

354. Tell your son to get used to it.

Racists come in all forms and colors, the best thing for him to do is just ignore the little racist.

[WLKjr]

356. At least he didn't get called.......

a red headed step child

:( I do all the time :(

[clem_c_rock]

364. WHY DO POSTS LIKE THIS GET SO MUCH RESPONSES???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I Mean come on already. I can post something about 1 million people getting slaughtered, or something about big brother turning putting a mandatory chip in everyone's head under Patriot act III and it would get about 2 replys.


Fuckin' A!!!!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

378. tell it!

[meisje]

379. Mix of flame wars and boredom with gay whores

[Lisabtrucking]

393. Agree, nuff said.

[kwassa]

428. BECAUSE THE ISSUE IS IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and the issue is NOT!!!!!!! about the word "CRACKER"!!!!!!

but it is about the perception of racial issues in this country.

And what some of us are saying is ....

While white liberals can be very sympathetic about black equality, they don't necessarily know ANYTHING about black people, black culture, the specific issues invovled in this discussion, but most basically,

how black Americans percieve the truth of this, and other issues pertaining to their status in this country.

Instead of spouting off, why don't you listen up?

[verdalaven]

382. My response will be buried at the bottom, but....

I decided to respond, anyway.

No, you shouldn't be angry. Kids sometimes blurt out the worst crap they can think of in the heat of the moment. Teaching your son how to walk away from the minor stuff will serve him well later in life. Being called a name is minor, minor, so so minor. Teaching him that this is bigotry on her part only fuels future bigotry in him, whether you want that to happen, or not.

[Pithlet]

391. Best response

wheter it's at the bottom or not. :thumbsup:

[Sugar Smack]

426. That was exactly right-

whether or not the girl knew every connotation of the word "cracker", she was probably behaving out of surprise. She may have come up with the most incendiary response she could think of in that instant. As an adult, you have had plenty of time to read history, weigh the meanings of one word against another. I'm with Dr. Weird on this. They're kids. Your son took the ball away from her, and she reacted out of surprise. There are worse words, suggestions and accusations floating around out there. What if he came to you and told you that this girl called him a cracker after he took the ball away from her-without much concern on his part-and you blew up on her without taking into account that he started it- and called her on her defense mechanism without making him accountable for his actions? What is he going to learn from that? If I were you, I would drop it, now.

[Karenina]

429. Cary, NC mom

Has likely already filed her complaint, bringing to bear her and her son's "white privilege" rather than finding a "menschlich" solution, like bringing everything to the table, confronting the kids and hashing it out in a way that would promote understanding. Certainly NOT necessary with those bussed-in untermenschen. CYA as she says.

[Stirk]

392. The mealy-mouthed deflection in this thread is sad.

Yes, what the girl said was racist.

Should you be angry...? Would you report a kid for calling another kid "nigger"? For me, it would depend on the specifics. If some kid is bullying another kid because of their race, it's certainly worth getting angry about.

[Tomee450]

399. But bullying is a different

thing entirely. There has been no indication that this child was engaged in such behavior. She became angry when the other child took away her ball. Children call each other names, sometimes as a knee jerk reaction. Sometimes they later make up and become friends. Running to the authorities every time your child is called a name does not make sense to me. Black parents could be doing that all the time. In my family we usually told the children to ignore the slur. I don't recall anyone running to the principal's office to complain.

[Karenina]

408. Venus and Serena's father

as part of their training, had racial epithets screamed at them while they were playing. VERY SMART MOVE. I wonder if ANY white parent has EVER felt the need to do that...

[Tomee450]

441. I agree,

a very good move. They were able to handle the slurs because they knew what to expect. This just shows the kind of unpleasant experiences black people may sometime encounter. Black parents sending their children to mostly white colleges also try to tell them what they may expect in the way of racial prejudice,such things as white parents not wanting their child to share a room with a black student. That happened to by brother-in-law. Yet we have people believing that racism is not that much of a problem. Tell that to black athletes who have racial slurs thrown at them all the time.

[IntravenousDemilo]

409. Only if it's a Ritzy private school. n/m

[Karenina]

412. ROTFLMAO!!!!

GOOD ONE!!! :toast:

[spunky]

417. I was just joking with my bf last night about how funny the word "cracker"

is. I've never heard anyone seriously called a cracker. And if someone did call me a cracker, I think I'd just laugh. As long as they don't call me racist I don't care. Growing up in Mississippi I had black kids tell me I was racist if I wouldn't lend them a pencil (which is silly because if I had a pencil, I'd loan it to anyone, I knew my parents would get me more if I didn't get it back). That used to upset me, but I understand now they were just repeating what they've heard their parents say, but they didn't understand the context in which it is likely that a white person's behavior is motivated by racism. (and pencil loaning is likely not such a context).

I wouldn't be that upset. She's most likely just repeating stuff she's heard at home. She might not even understand that it is meant to be derogatory. Kids say stuff that they don't understand all the time, just repeating what they hear grown-ups say. Kids have to learn about bounderies and what is appropriate and what is not. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt.

That said, someone should point out to her that some people find the word cracker offensive and that it isn't polite to call people that.

[DrWeird]

418. Yes, you should be angry.

You should be angry that your son took a little black girl's ball away from her, and if you were decent you'd make him apologize to her at the first opportunity.

[Karenina]

420. Apologize to HER???

Dr. Weird you are truly weird in more ways than 17. SHE must NOT be allowed to "get away" with dissing a white boy.

Did you read my compendium?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3118323&mesg_id=3128628

[Karenina]

423. 425 posts... Mutti ist verschwunden

Likely never to return after the STINK BOMB GRENADE she threw. Made her intent clear in post #9... Please do check my compendium of her posts up top...#401 and tell me again what we're dealing with...

[DawgHouse]

425. My son says "No big deal"

I asked him if he would be mad if someone called him a cracker and he said "no, because it's just a word." And he said the person who said it is just showing their ignorance because they probably don't even know the origin of the word. We're in Florida so maybe that makes a difference.

[adigal]

427. Odd timing...my daughter told me this happened

to her today at school. Mind you, she and the girl who called her this are both white. The girl told my daughter she is trashy. Yes, of course, I told my daughter, your mother has her Masters degree, is working on her doctorate, you are never allowed to wear anything but dress clothes to school, no belly shirts, low pants, high heels for a 10 year old, and you are white trash. LOL!!!

I think kids don't know what they are saying 3/4 of the time!

[Karenina]

430. This cognative dissonance

is what allows Americans to go about their daily business with NO THOUGHT to the genocide being perpetuated in their names. Your gub'mint decided Saddam was TRASHY. (Specially when he moved to undercut your petro-dollar). Iraqi moms and dads who'd EDJUMACATED dey kids said, YOU are dressed properly, do well in school and have something of VALUE to contribute to OUR society. But the Amis decided they were all expendable sand-niggers, dropped bombs on their heads and poisoned their water, food and land. You LOL about the false charges against your daughter? Iraqis have no such luxury

Understand me correctly please, Adigal. My point is NOT about YOU personally. This thread reveals the roots of a lack of empathy and racism that is fueling American GENOCIDE against "the other that has what we want." ALL Soccer Mom's son did was "take the ball away" from a troublesome black girl who responded by calling him "the great Satan."

Does my analogy make sense to you when you take the time to REALLY think about it and FEEL IT standing in the shoes of another thousands of miles away?

[adigal]

447. I always try to stand in another's shoes

which is why I did not get upset over the "cracker" charge. It is such small potatoes, compared to what others have to contend with.

I do understand your point, and I will raise you one concern. How long until this bunch decides that we who disagree with the war, their policies need to be removed from "polite" society??? And do you think the likes of Hannity and Limbaugh will give a damn what happens to "dissenters"?

[Karenina]

456. Thank you for your response, Adigal

and for your understanding. As I go about my daily business, I take care not to step on the bronze plaques imbedded in the sidewalk that bear the names and deportation dates of victims seized from their homes and murdered. I cannot express the ALARM felt in my circle of friends watching America embracing the HORROR that this country perpetuated 70 years ago. AT. WARP. SPEED.

The "glue" that binds too many American citizens to denial of the genocide in Iraq is racism. I do sincerely fear for those of you who see through the lies as, I am PAINFULLY AWARE of where the path leads...

[love wins]

432. This is what I would do if I was your son

Hi,

This is my first post on DU, but I read every single post, and had to register and respond.

I am sure many who posted, including the mom who began the thread, are adults, and know more than I about these situations, so you may wish to disregard my post, as I am still in school.

I am what they call a "minority". I am a native american.

There are many things I would like to say, but placing my feelings in words, in English, my second language, isn't always easy, yet I'm going to try.

of course, my ancestors faced horrible racism, so I do not wish to complain about,(and usually will not even speak of), my lesser instances with this problem.Possibly the worst for me to this time, was being caught by non natives, as I was painting over some racist grafiti they had sprayed on a building we use. I was in 6th grade, and was beaten to being in hospital. My health returned, and I became well again, and I did not seek them being punished, though some adults thought I should.My grandmother supported me in this. She and I thought forgiveness would work better than punishment, at healing this terrible place in those that did the painful harm.

We believed then, and I believe now, that the offspring of forgiveness is healing for all parties, and that the offspring of retaliation and punishment, is greater chasms, and more suffering and even hate.

I have never been to North Carolina, and am not qualified to know about the situations there, however, this is what I would do if I was your son.

I would write the girl a letter, and I would tell her this:

Dear miss?,
I took the ball from you, for which I am sorry.
you called me a name, which hurt my feelings.
you and I now have a choice. We can continue to attempt to hurt each other, in the continuing of a hurtful past, or we can choose to be bigger,than many who lived before us, and apologize, so that we can turn our energy and time, not to harming each other, but to better things. We have come into a world that needs leaders to solve many terrible problems, from hunger, war, racism, and so many more. We can choose to be 2 of those leaders today.
I am choosing to apologize and fogive and try to be one of those leaders. I hope sincerely, that you will do the same. You are smart and strong.
signed (your son's name)

to the mom, I would say this. You can show your son how to be a victim, or you can show your son how to be a leader. I believe, that in the future, your son will be happy, if you chose to teach him to be a leader.

Where you think your son being called a word that I am not familiar with, is a terrible thing....I see it to be the possibility of a very terific thing. It has come to you as a gift....a gift you can use to help both your son, and if she chooses, the girl as well.
2 people can benefit from what you teach at this time. and you do not know how many more, from those two.

I am Apache. This is what I think.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

434. I love your post.

I think that is a great idea.


Welcome to DU.

-Steph

[adigal]

448. Very thoughtful and wise suggestion

Thank you,

[Misunderestimator]

452. Wonderful post... you should be a diplomat.

and welcome to DU! :hi:

[Karenina]

457. Beautiful post, Love Wins!

It brought tears to my eyes. :cry: You are wise beyond your years, dearest one! Welcome to DU! :hug:

[love wins]

478. thank you

thank you semicharmedquark,adigal,misunderestimator,and karenina,
for your kind words and the welcome.

I'm not sure if I even put the first post in the correct place for the mom who began the thread to see it, but i'm learning.

thank you again.
I liked reading yours as well

[hyphenate]

435. Depends who was calling him that. eom

[IkneadU]

439. Be happy if that is all he gets called :o)

There's far worse that he will probably hear before he's done
with his education. Just be sure to teach and help him
understand that it is wrong and that it is a sign of ignorance
and weakness. Our children only know what they're taught and
the world can teach some bad things.

[ultraist]

443. And be sure to teach him that using PHYSICAL FORCE is INAPPROPRIATE

BOYS in particular need to be taught this.

I find it disturbing that a middle school age white boy is using physical force against a black girl and the reaction from the mother and numerous posters is all about the name the black girl called him as a reaction!

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? Would people be ignoring the inappropriate physical force if it had come from a black boy? I THINK NOT!

Consider the macro implications and then put this in micro context, a Cary NC public school that is composed of 6% blacks and 90% whites. HOW can people not see what the deal is here? It's big as fucking day!

[Misunderestimator]

453. Exactly!!!!! Forget the physical threat, but let's scream reverse-racism

at the smallest provocation, from something uttered by a minority child. Freaking amazing!!

[makhno]

445. Holy shit, this is insane

Not that I'm going to say anything that hasn't been said in 450+ posts, but to see what appears to be a vocal majority of posters defending racist epithets leaves me speechless.

Holy fucking shit. Wow.

United we stand, my ass. Way to go.

[Misunderestimator]

449. What amazes me is how many people really think cracker is as bad as n*****

unbelievable.

[makhno]

459. Like I said ...

... the difference between "cracker" and "nigger" has been debated at length. The idea that so many here find any racial slur acceptable is what disgusts me.

[Misunderestimator]

461. I don't think people are finding it acceptable to insult anyone, but the

fact remains that equating the term "cracker" with the other term is ridiculous. What's amazing to me is that ANY white person would claim to be as insulted by that term as a black person would be insulted by the other. I live in Florida, and know what a cracker is... I also have been called a gringa by latin friends... according to some here, I should have been terribly offended. :eyes:

[makhno]

462. It sounds like we agree

Derogatory comments of any type aren't acceptable in my view, whether they fall into the "lesser" or "higher" orders of affront, if such exist.

The attitude displayed by some of the more vocal posters could have skewed my perception of what the prevailing opinion on this thread is. I've never been comfortable with rationalisations of racist behavior; it should be condemned whatever its shape or intensity as it detracts from the fundamental fact of human equality and class unity.

[ultraist]

479. cracker really isn't just a racial slur, that's the point

And it certainly isn't a racial slur like the word "nigger" is. It depends on how it is used. It is a vernacular term in the south.

Some people jumped on the bandwagon before they even knew what it meant. It is used commonly in down here by kids, usually whites saying it to other whites in a friendly fashion. Many posters pointed this fact out, but others refuse to hear the truth because they are so caught up and defending the white kid who initiated the altercation by using physical force.

FYI: Lawton Chiles (Fl-D)often refers to himself as a cracker. The word was coined based on occupation, possibly class but not race.

********
CRACKER n

1. general. One who or that which cracks (in any of the senses of the vb.).

1842 DICKENS Amer. Notes (1850) 14/1 A teller of anecdotes and cracker of jokes. (OED)

2. esp. A boaster, braggart; a liar. A Celtic word meaning a loudmouth. (Tonyan)

1594 SHAKES. John II. i. 147 What cracker is this same that deafes our eares With this abundance of superfluous breath? (OED)

1652 ASHMOLE Theatr. Chem. cx. 208 Beware..Of Boasters and Crackers, for they will thee beguile. (OED)

It is also a designation used by and for Southerners many of whom self-identify proudly as crackers, especially whites from Georgia and sometimes from Florida.

CRACKER n

1. general. One who or that which cracks (in any of the senses of the vb.).

1625 B. JONSON Staple of News Prol. for Crt., To scholars..above the vulgar sort Of nut-crackers, that only come for sight. (OED)

1842 DICKENS Amer. Notes (1850) 14/1 A teller of anecdotes and cracker of jokes. (OED)

2. esp. A boaster, braggart; a liar. A Celtic word meaning a loudmouth. (Tonyan)

1594 SHAKES. John II. i. 147 What cracker is this same that deafes our eares With this abundance of superfluous breath? (OED)

1652 ASHMOLE Theatr. Chem. cx. 208 Beware..Of Boasters and Crackers, for they will thee beguile. (OED)

3. < l7C – early 20C> familiar or colloq. An enormous lie. ( Farmer, 201) A very tall story. (Partridge, 264)

According to some, cracker is short for corn-cracker, which was a name for a Southern highlander in the nineteenth century (Allen, 50); but early quotes leave this doubtful. There are several other compounds besides corn-cracker associated with the word cracker.

Corn-cracker also refers to one who cracks corn to make grits or cornmeal, corn being a principal ingredient of the diet of backwoodmen (Presley) and poor whites linked to certain regions of Georgia and Florida. After the Civil War, many were too poor to buy corn meal and had no choice but to make their own. (Hendrickson, 76). Corn-cracker is first atttested to only in 1835. (Wordorigins).

This definition involves the whip, its pieces, its sound and those who used the whip. One theory is that cracker was coined by black people in reference to the whip-cracking during enslavement; by extension any white person. (Smitherman,100)

An attachment to the end of a whip-lash such as a piece of buckskin by which a cracking sound can be produced. Wentworth, 85). Also, the hide string, end of a bull whip of a buggy whip. (Green, 264) The sound of whips cracking was heard when Florida cattlemen would drive the oxen that pulled their carts and wagons and when Florida cowboys
herded cattle. (Tonyan)

[reallygone]

465. The list!

I think maybe we need to come up with a list of racial slurs. Kind of put them in order from worst to least unacceptable. That way we can evaluate and say:

"If someone uses any of the slurs above this line, you can knife them. In the ones below the line, you can only beat them up. The ones at the bottom of the list, you can only respond with a similar racial slur or use profanity."

That should clear everything up. We should have done this a long time ago! What a concept!

[Tomee450]

466. I think you have misinterpreted

certain posts. People are not excusing the use of racial epithets. They are objecting to such outrage over a slur hurled by a minority student and equating it to the N word which blacks are called quite regularly and which has a terribly history attached to it. In my opinion the incident was blown up out of all proportion. I also was concerned about the effect a complaint written by a white mother will have on the life of this minority student. The words of whites in this country carry power. When whites complain about blacks, often the outcome is not very favorable for the black person even when there actions appear justified.

[Jamastiene]

455. Maybe no

I think no. I mean he could have been called something way worse and gotten beaten up or something. I'd try to find out if he is handling it all right though. Sometimes they don't say it, but their feelings are hurt...

[davidinalameda]

460. what kind of cracker and by whom

it he was called a Ritz--I wouldn't be too upset

and what was the circumstances surrounding your son being called said cracker

[Moderator]

483. Locking.....

It appears that all that needed to be
said on this subject has been said.



DU Moderator