If you could sit down with Abe Lincoln, Andrew Jackson

[Blue_Roses]

John Hancock, and many others who signed our Constitution, what do you think they would say about this administration and who would you most like to talk to about what is going on now? I often feel the earth move as some roll over in their grave with the crap this administration is doing. Different time, different place...but same ideas and same desire to have equal rights under the Constitution. Thoughts on a bored night...:D

I think I would like to talk to Andrew Jackson first, partly because he was an awesome architect and designer:D but he seems to be a liberal in his own time...

Thoughts....

[The Sheik]

1. Andrew Jackson was a great guy, but probably could have shone a little

more respect for the native americans. But he was a southerner, so he is pardoned in my book.

[shawcomm]

8. a little more respect than sending out the armies to slaughter them?

yeah, he could have had a little more respect than that.

:eyes:

no pardon from me though. I'm sure AJ and the shrub would get along famously regarding Iraq; "slaughter the heathens".

[ultraist]

32. Andrew Johnson

excerpts:
After Lincoln's death, President Johnson proceeded to reconstruct the former Confederate States while Congress was not in session in 1865. He pardoned all who would take an oath of allegiance, but required leaders and men of wealth to obtain special Presidential pardons.

By the time Congress met in December 1865, most southern states were reconstructed, slavery was being abolished, but "black codes" to regulate the freedmen were beginning to appear.

Radical Republicans in Congress moved vigorously to change Johnson's program. They gained the support of northerners who were dismayed to see Southerners keeping many prewar leaders and imposing many prewar restrictions upon Negroes.

The Radicals' first step was to refuse to seat any Senator or Representative from the old Confederacy. Next they passed measures dealing with the former slaves. Johnson vetoed the legislation. The Radicals mustered enough votes in Congress to pass legislation over his veto--the first time that Congress had overridden a President on an important bill. They passed the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which established Negroes as American citizens and forbade discrimination against them.

A few months later Congress submitted to the states the Fourteenth Amendment, which specified that no state should "deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/aj17.html

Andrew Jackson

More nearly than any of his predecessors, Andrew Jackson was elected by popular vote; as President he sought to act as the direct representative of the common man.

Born in a backwoods settlement in the Carolinas in 1767, he received sporadic education. But in his late teens he read law for about two years, and he became an outstanding young lawyer in Tennessee. Fiercely jealous of his honor, he engaged in brawls, and in a duel killed a man who cast an unjustified slur on his wife Rachel.

Jackson prospered sufficiently to buy slaves and to build a mansion, the Hermitage, near Nashville. He was the first man elected from Tennessee to the House of Representatives, and he served briefly in the Senate. A major general in the War of 1812, Jackson became a national hero when he defeated the British at New Orleans.

[AuntiBush]

38. Thank you.

I'm a Native American, and though the only thing that sometimes helps is the pride instilled within us utilizing the only thing no one could take from us (my lines that survived) was our love, and respect for nature and the mere fact some of us did survive.

Andrew Jackson isn't one I'd like to talk to at all, rather I'd actually be interested in what Jefferson might have to say as he was the first "Democrat-Republican," if nothing else. Then again, he was a slave-owner. Shrugging... how about Benjamin Franklin? Wouldn't mind hearing what he'd have to say or John Adams.

[Blue_Roses]

9. Being from the south myself

I think he was much more progressive than most. The south sucked during those times and unfortunately still does in many ways, and as someone who has lived here all my life I feel I have the "rights" to say it, however, it's time to get this regressive part of the nation moving ahead.

[Maddy McCall]

13. The south "sucked?"

You do know that Thomas Jefferson was a southerner?

[Blue_Roses]

23. let me "rephrase"

that --the south does not suck. I live here and there are many things about the south I love. However, the south then and the south now, have not changed that much. Anger, prejudice, and intimidation still abound...

this is suppose to be a fun thread...:D

[Clark2008]

40. Why is there anger in the South?

I'm only angry at traffic jams and stupid people.
Everyone else seems to be angry all the time at stuff they think they've changed, but have, in fact, only made worse.

I live here for one reason:

Just got home from Illinois lock the front door oh boy!
Got to sit down take a rest on the porch.
Imagination sets in pretty soon I'm singin'

Doo doo doo Lookin' out my back door.
There's a giant doing cartwheels a statue wearin' high heels.
Look at all the happy creatures dancing on the lawn.
A dinosaur Victrola list'ning to Buck Owens.

Tambourines and elephants are playing in the band.
Won't you take a ride on the flyin' spoon?
Doo, doo doo.
Wond'rous apparition provided by magician.

Tambourines and elephants are playing in the band.
Won't you take a ride on the flyin' spoon?
Doo, doo doo.
Bother me tomorrow, today, I'll buy no sorrows.

Forward troubles Illinois, lock the front door, oh boy!
Look at all the happy creatures dancing on the lawn.
Bother me tomorrow, today, I'll buy no sorrows.

My back yard really is like this (no, no one is taking a ride on a spoon, but it's nice to have an acre of land, half a mile from all that's city for three times less than what New Yorkers pay for a square of space. On the other hand, my son thinks the coolest house he's been in was a NYC apartment. LOL!)

[ultraist]

24. I live in the South too

But I've also lived in the North. There are pockets of regressive people all over the nation. CA has MILLIONS of Bush voters for instance and a very high Hate Crime rate. I'm not so sure it's still worse in the South. Look at Kansas! Kansas has a big KKK group that is actively recruiting and trying to move into the mainstream and gain political clout. There was a recent article about this in major newspaper. Ok is really bad too.

MLK Jr was a Southerner too. ;)

[The Sheik]

25. Reason why CA has a large hate crime index...

we have a border and klansmen along with neo-nazis frequently come and play Charles Bronson on the borderline. Plus we have LA.

[ultraist]

36. The neo nazis and the KKK are on the rise thanks to Bush's culture of hate

[Blue_Roses]

27. Okay, but who would you most

like to talk to from the past? Maybe that should have been the title of my thread:D

[Blue_Roses]

37. this might be something of interest

Indian Removal Policy

As a means of effecting this end I suggest for your consideration the propriety of setting apart an ample district west of the Mississippi, and without the limits of any State or Territory now formed, to be guaranteed to the Indian tribes as long as they shall occupy it, each tribe having a distinct control over the portion designated for its use. There they may be secured in the enjoyment of governments of their own choice, subject to no other control from the United States than such as may be necessary to preserve peace on the frontier and between the several tribes. There the benevolent may endeavor to teach them the arts of civilization, and, by promoting union and harmony among them, to raise up an interesting commonwealth, destined to perpetuate the race and to attest the humanity and justice of this Government.

Voluntary Exile

This emigration should be voluntary, for it would be as cruel as unjust to compel the aborigines to abandon the graves of their fathers and seek a home in a distant land. But they should be distinctly informed that if they remain within the limits of the States they must be subject to their laws. In return for their obedience as individuals they will without doubt be protected in the enjoyment of those possessions which they have improved by their industry. But it seems to me visionary to suppose that in this state of things claims can be allowed on tracts of country on which they have neither dwelt nor made improvements, merely because they have seen them from the mountain or passed them in the chase. Submitting to the laws of the States, and receiving, like other citizens, protection in their persons and property, they will ere long become merged in the mass of our population.

The accompanying report of the Secretary of the Navy will make you acquainted with the condition and useful employment of that branch of our service during the present year. Constituting as it does the best standing security of this country against foreign aggression, it claims the especial attention of Government. In this spirit the measures which since the termination of the last war have been in operation for its gradual enlargement were adopted, and it should continue to be cherished as the off-spring of our national experience. It will be seen, however, that not withstanding the great solicitude which has been manifested for the perfect organization of this arm and the liberality of the appropriations which that solicitude has suggested, this object has in many important respects not been secured.


more...

http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/JacksonFirstAnnualMessage.htm#DESTINY

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. That's a bitch session I'd love to get into!!

Not only would they trash the administration for destroying everything good about America, and trash the asshole fucks who voted for the dumb sonofabitch, but I bet our beloved forefathers would also give a good reaming to all us idiots who are just sitting back and taking it, and not reclaiming our government.

I think they'd be yelling, "To arms! To arms, you lazy assholes!"

[Blue_Roses]

3. LOL!

Great response! I think they would all be yelling what the hell are you waiting for? Get your asses out there and fight for what we tried to instill in this country...I agree, I would love to chew the fat with some of these guys!

[NEOBuckeye]

4. I'd like to know what Thomas Jefferson would do about Cheney

I can't imagine he'd have very much patience at all with the man, thoroughly corrupt thug that he is.

[FreedomAngel82]

11. I think it'd be very interesting

And I'm sure Mr. Lincoln would lay it on them about all the religion from his quote "The key, however, is make sure that we're on God's side, not claim that God is on our side."

[mattclearing]

5. Andy Jackson didn't sign the Constitution, nor did Lincoln. n/t

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. Well, then, we could get him finally to sign it at the gathering.

:P

[mattclearing]

12. Or at least bait them into a game of checkers.

But seriously, the framers would be home overthrowing the world with their X-boxes.

We are doomed.

:D

[Blue_Roses]

17. the point is

who would you most like to talk to during this time. Benjamin Franklin signed the Constitution and he's another I would like to talk to. Maybe I should have made it clearer:eyes:

[mattclearing]

19. Martin Luther King, honestly.

Those people didn't live in our world. I think things have changed considerably since then. Their Constitution bears little resemblance to the hulking debt-ridden mess that the federal government has grown into since their time.

I want someone who can inspire people with their spoken words and their ability to seek justice.

Give me a JFK or a Martin. We need someone that can go THERE.

[Blue_Roses]

20. I admire him too

and would love to talk with him. Very much so, especially now since the south is on a one-way track to regression with this administration.

[RPM]

7. Abe Lincoln didn't sign the constitution

I dont think Andrew Jackson did either....

Is your syntax poor, or are you badly confused???

Andrew Jackson as architect??? Do you mean good old Tommy Jefferson?

testing 1-2-3...

[ultraist]

29. The Framers of the Constitution

Partial list. Most were about 35 yo. except Ben Franklin who was 82.

William Pierce: Georgia

Abraham Baldwin: Educated at Harvard

Richard Bassett:

Gunning Bedford: attorney

John Blair: Virginia, of the Judges of the Supreme Court in Virginia

William Blount: Mr. Twice a Member of Congress, and in that office discharged his duty with ability and faithfulness.

David Brearly: Judge of the Supreme Court of New Jersey

Jacob Broom:

Pierce Butler: Appointed to Congress, and a Member of the Legislature of South Carolina.

Daniel Carroll:

George Clymer: Lawyer

William Richardson: Lawyer

Jonathan Dayton: Brother Aid to General Sullivan in the Western expedition of '79.

John Dickinson: a good writer and will ever be considered one of the most important characters in the United States. He is about 55 years old, and was bred a Quaker.

Oliver Ellsworth: Judge of the Supreme Court in Connecticut

William Few: attorney, Georgia, twice a Member of Congress,

Thomas Fitzsimmons: Legislature of Pennsylvania.

Benjamin Franklin: well known to be the greatest phylosopher of the present age;-all the operation of nature he seems to understand

complete list:
http://www.usconstitution.net/constframe.html

[Maddy McCall]

10. Andrew Jackson was no liberal. He was the architect alright....

The architect of Indian removal. :grr:

[mattclearing]

15. Totally. Cold blooded murderer, too.

Didn't he personally exterminate a Seminole diplomatic delegation?

[The Magistrate]

14. Any Meeting With 'Old Hickory', Ma'am

Would be an occassion for circumspection; the man had quite a temper, and little restraint over it....

Mr. Lincoln seems to have been a swell fellow to sip cider with....

[Blue_Roses]

18. maybe that's why

I'm always a sucker for rebel, but know it's not always the best...

I would love to sip some cider with "honest Abe" as well...I find myself often scouring over history notes from college to see if there's anything that would make me see things in a different light...

Huey Long is one that I would love to chew the fat with as well...:D

[The Magistrate]

28. The Kingfish, Ma'am, Is A Model For Us All

"Never write what you can phone; never phone what you can say; never say what you can nod; never nod what you can wink; never wink what you can smile."

[Blue_Roses]

39. LOL!

I worked as a hostess in college at a seafood resturant called "Kingfish" ...My Louisiana history teacher in college loved Huey Long and made us watch every movie made about him. I always tried to tune out the fact he bit a man's ear off in a fightx( but he was a warrior for the "little people," ...

[The Magistrate]

42. For Some Of Us, Ma'am

That is a positive credential. But my own choppers, alas, are no longer up to such a task....

"Old age and treachery beats youth and skill every time."

[Blue_Roses]

45. you are the greatest

:D I always love reading your posts! You have an admirer in me...

[Journeyman]

16. I believe most felt the grand experiment wouldn't last . . .

and though they'd be saddened at its decline, and perplexed by the nature of its ailments, the direction of its course and the potential for its demise would most likely not surprise. If there were any aspect that would most distress them it might be the general passivity with which the crisis has been met.

Alexis d'Tocqueville wrote in the mid-nineteenth century that democracy in America would last until the people discovered they could vote themselves money. I wonder if he realized it would be the rich who would garner the award.

[Blue_Roses]

21. great response

thanks...

:D

[Rockerdem]

22. I know what youre driving at, but man, Bushie would look radical to them

That time was soooooooo much different. Condi Rice would blow their minds. Apples and oranges.

[clem_c_rock]

26. I would have kicked AJ in the head.

I love how he belittled the Cherokees when he helped send them on the trail of tears and called them a bunch of whiners because they were being relocated for free when the pilgrims had to give up everything for their relocation.

And G Washington w/ his 200+ slaves is not a democrat who represents me.

Sorry guys, Democracy doesn't count when it's just for white folks.

Now Lincoln, that's a guy who can represent me.

[evlbstrd]

31. Right F'in On!

I can't find a shred of respect for Andrew Jackson.
He paved the Trail of Tears fer godsakes. Someone must have that old Chuck Heston movie in mind here. Jackson was a true bastard.

[Blue_Roses]

44. well, let me help you find some respect

for him:

http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/jackson.htm

My grandmother was from Mississippi and was Cherokee Indian. She didn't speak much about this when I was a kid and frankly, I probably wouldn't have understand, but she did speak of being glad to know that there was an option given and even though the "force" was met with resistance, there was some reasoning to the whole situation. My grandfather met her as soldier during this time. He devoted his whole life to her.

[clem_c_rock]

46. Wait - let me get this straight.

AJ was the guy who set this policy to relocate eastern Indians in 1829.

Sure he paves his speeches w/ nice happy intentions (isn't that an inherent trait w/ all politicians), but let's look at what this is.

This is the Federal Indian Removal Policy, it means he is responsible for the Trail of Tears.

I fail to see anything to respect AJ for.

http://www.rosecity.net/tears/trail/tearsnht.html
<snip>
Early in the 19th century, the United States felt threatened by England and Spain, who held land in the western continent. At the same time, American settlers clamored for more land. Thomas Jefferson proposed the creation of a buffer zone between U.S. and European holdings, to be inhabited by eastern American Indians. This plan would also allow for American expansion westward from the original colonies to the Mississippi River.

President
Andrew Jackson
Between 1816 and 1840, tribes located between the original states and the Mississippi River, including Cherokees, Chickasaws, Choctaws, Creeks, and Seminoles, signed more than 40 treaties ceding their lands to the U.S. In his 1829 inaugural address, President Andrew Jackson set a policy to relocate eastern Indians. In 1830 it was endorsed, when Congress passed the Indian Removal Act to force those remaining to move west of the Mississippi. Between 1830 and 1850, about 100,000 American Indians living between Michigan, Louisiana, and Florida moved west after the U.S. government coerced treaties or used the U.S. Army against those resisting. Many were treated brutally. An estimated 3,500 Creeks died in Alabama and on their westward journey. Some were transported in chains.
</snip>

http://www.boisestate.edu/history/ncasner/hy210/tears.htm
<snip>
The Trail of Tears started long before the heart breaking trek began, in 1803 the Louisiana Purchase signified the origin of the theories of a peaceful removal for the Native Americans beyond the Mississippi. However, serious consideration began in 1820 with the demand for more land. A boom in foreign and domestic markets for agricultural goods coupled with revolutionary inventions such as the cotton gin produced widespread use of the plantation system. The removal of indigenous populations stood in the way of progress. Georgia, determined to rid herself of Indians, complained to the United States to fulfill the commitment to removing Native Americans from the State (a pact signed in 1802 promised Georgia the U.S. Government would relocate the indigenous population).
</snip>

[ultraist]

35. Revisionist history glorifies many of these men

Public school text books are chaulked full of glorifications of American white male *heros*.

But if the options are wide open now, I would love to have to chat with Einstein.

[Blue_Roses]

41. no doubt

met too..Einstein was known to have ADD. A brilliant mind and I tell my students who worry they will be labeled "stupid" because of ADD that Einstein had it too!:D Yes, I would love to chat with him as well!

[Spider Jerusalem]

30. Andrew Jackson was hardly a liberal...

and I don't think I would much enjoy conversing with the man. He was a barely civilised, ill-tempered, mostly illiterate boor who was likely to erupt into violence at any given moment, and the sort of man to challenge one to a duel over the smallest perceived slight.

What Jackson represented was the growing political power of the West (at that time, Tennessee and Kentucky were "the West"), being the first figure of national prominence from that part of the country. But what gets called "Jacksonian democracy" owes a lot more to men like Henry Clay than it does Jackson (and Clay is someone I would want to talk to).

As to others, Jefferson and Franklin, because, of the "Founding Fathers", they are the most interesting and most brilliant. (Hope I could keep up. Heh.)

[evlbstrd]

34. Another hearty Right F'in on!

Franklin and Jefferson, the true philosophers of the Founding Fathers.

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