Slate: The Baltimore Debate, Field goal for Kerry, touchdown for Dean

[CMT]

Snip:
Just about everyone did well inthis debate, much better than in last week's debate in Albuqurque, NM. Joe Lieberman was fiery, Dennis Kucinich sounded almost sane, and John Edwards finally talked and laughted like one of those regular people he keeps claiming to represent. But the most important performances were turned in by John Kerry and Howard Dean...Tonight, however, Kerry took a holiday from his inner political consultant. He said what he thought...Howard Dean's performance was near-perfect. Strategically, Dean is way ahead of the pack. He has fulfilled the affirmative part of the campaign: giving people enough reasons to vote for him. Now he hasthe luxury of focusing on the negative part: dispelling the reasons to vote against him. Accordingly, his preparation for the last two debates seem to have focused on acting presidential and conveying competence in military and foreign policy. Tonight he accomplished both. He was at ease and in command. Rectifying his performance in Albuqurque, he projected confidence without constipation...

http://slate.msn.com/id/2088124/"

[Cha]

1. It's really Grand to read this....

Accentuating the positive!

"The big test came half an hour into the debate, when panelist Juan Williams asked Dean whether his recent comments about not taking sides between Israel and the Palestinians signaled an intention to curb U.S. support for Israel. "Of course I don't mean any such thing," Dean replied. In previous debates, Dean has gotten angry and defensive in answering such questions. This time, he was cool as a cucumber, laying out his case that the United States must be "a credible negotiator" to the Palestinians as well."

"Williams turned to Joe Lieberman, who proceeded to accuse Dean of betraying American values and interests by walking away from the U.S. alliance with Israel, specifically by saying that Israel must dismantle many settlements in the West Bank. Dean's response was perfect. "I'm disappointed in Joe," he said, more in sorrow than in anger. "My position on Israel is exactly the same as Bill Clinton's." Lieberman, who was standing next to Dean, interjected that this wasn't true, but Dean, without turning to Lieberman or raising his voice, politely continued, "Excuse me, Joe. I didn't interrupt you, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't interrupt me." Dean proceeded to make his case for an "honest broker" role, concluding, without rancor, "It doesn't help, Joe, to demagogue this issue. We're all Democrats. We need to beat George Bush so we can have peace in the Middle East."

[rucky]

6. W-O-W!

...He's come a long way from Meet the Press, dontcha think? Next debate, I'm calling in sick for work. I can't miss watching my baby growing up to be president!

heh, heh... "demagogue" ... heh, heh

[BurtWorm]

2. The conclusion is spot on, as well

In some ways, the exchange encapsulated the massive shift that has taken place during the campaign. If the candidates had debated a year ago, Lieberman would have been the heir apparent, and Dean would have been the one fighting for attention. Dean would have done the attacking, and Lieberman would have shaken his head in disappointment at such demagoguery. Surely, Lieberman would have concluded with the same plea to unite the party against Bush. Oh, well. Live by the olive branch, die by the olive branch.

[AP]

3. I'm going to be picky here.

I missed the debate, and I read through many of the comments here, especially focussing on mentions of Edwards.

This article seems at odds with the conclusions DU'ers came to. People here generally thought Dean was holding steady, that Kerry hurt himself with a poor closing statement and was lifeless through the rest of the debate. The few comments on Edwards were almost entirely positive.

Also, I can't help but notice that the "compliment" slate gives Edwards is couched in two negative comments. First, it implies that Edwards has been stiff up to now, which is the first time I've ever heard this criticism, and it suggests that the 'regualr people" appeal is fake (Edwards "claims" te represent them -- that modifier tells a great deal).

I'm a little suspicious of William Saletan's bias.

[CMT]

4. well he is a pundit/columnist

and reports his views. I caught what he said on Edwards too and didn't think it was entirely fair.

[Julien Sorel]

7. I've learned, unfortunately, not to trust DUers on certain

things, especially with regards to campaigns and Bush. In the first two debates, for example, it was obvious Dean did poor-to-mediocre, but on the polls they have here, he came out winning or close to it. The poll turned out to be a DU beauty contest, not an attempt at actually articulating the debate results. I've seen Bush absolutely hammered here after giving a speech, but when I saw the speech itself, he seemed to do about as well as he could, which admittedly, isn't very, but to judge from some of the comments here, you'd have thought he went up to the podium and stood there smirking, while people threw rotten vegetables at him. It's just the nature of the beast to be biased. Saletan seems to have a pro-Repub bias, but he's also a journalist, and as such, has to at least try to be accurate in his analysis. Few people here even try.

[Sean Reynolds]

15. Dean did poor-to-mediocre?

I won't deny Dean wasn't his best in the first debate, but in the second he was VERY calm and stuck to the issues. While Gep, Kerry, and the rest extremely bashed Bush without talking much about what they would do different.

Dean was presidential - he punked LIEberman in a calm, collective way. Not only that but he was mature in every sense of the equation. Dean last night came off as the winner because he was one of only a few that stuck to the issues and stated what he'd do different.

Continually bashing Bush without giving a strong rebuttal with your stance will get you nowhere. Dean bashed Bush but also stated where he stood on the issues. So did Kucinich, Braun, and to a lesser extent Edwards. The rest resorted to nothing but Bush bashing - and that turns voters off. It may be fun to hear, make for good sound bites, but that is about it.

[AP]

17. This assessment is also at odds with what many DU'ers said.

Again, because I didn't see the debate, I read through lots of commetns here.

A very common theme was that NONE of the candidates attacked Bush enough. (And my opinion is that people are used to heavy Bush bashing, particularly by Dean.) Now you're trying to say that Dean didn't, and that that was a virtue, and you're saying other candidates did it, and it was bad that they did?

I'm very confused.

[blm]

8. Saletan has stated that he wants to see Kerry take on Dean

more negatively. And blamed Kerry for not being as angry and entertaining for the press as Dean. Evidently the press loathes policy wonks. Shades of Gore.

[chimpymustgo]

10. I saw the debate. Edwards was great as always.

But the media will never tell you that. It's interesting how they liked Edwards till Rove told them to stop.

Now Rove says, we want Dean. And voila!

[Karmadillo]

14. Saletan thinks Dean is a closet centrist and

from what I've seen, that's about where I'd put Saletan (well, outside of the closet). I don't know whether or not his assessment of Dean is correct, but it might explain why he likes the debate performance. We tend to favor the candidates who agree with us (even though Saletan clearly has some issues with Dean, he just as clearly has more issues with Kerry).

http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/930194.asp?0si=-&cp1=1

June 23 — Monday afternoon, former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean announced that he was running for president to promote health care, child development, and fiscal responsibility. “But most importantly, I wanted my party to stand up for what we believe again!” shouted Dean. To his legions of supporters, he pleaded, “You have the power to take back the Democratic Party!” Those are good lines, and they got the applause he wanted. But they’re for show. Dean isn’t nearly the left-winger his fans or critics imagine.

FOR MONTHS, Dean has accused his Democratic rivals of caving to the right. He scolds them for supporting the Iraq war resolution, accepting $350 billion in additional deficit-era tax cuts, and voting for President Bush’s underfunded education bill. Dean claims to stand for “the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party,” unlike Bob Graham, who purports to represent “the electable wing of the Democratic Party.” But how exactly do Dean and Graham differ on the war resolution, the tax cuts, and funding the education bill? Not at all.

LOOK WHO’S TALKING
In his speech, Dean warned of Americans’ growing distrust of their government. He accused Bush of forcing localities to “raise property taxes so that income taxes may be cut for those who ran Enron.” He derided “a self-described conservative Republican president who creates the greatest deficits in history of America.” Good lines again. But if they sound familiar, perhaps that’s because they’ve been said before by Graham, Al Sharpton, and John Kerry. When Dean rebuked politicians who “have slavishly spewed sound bites, copying each other,” he could have been talking about himself.

Most of what Dean said on Meet the Press Sunday morning could have been written by the Democratic Leadership Council. He accused Bush of forcing tax hikes and spending too much. He indicated that he’d limit the rate of spending growth and might raise the retirement age. He deferred to states and churches on gun control and gay marriage. At one point, host Tim Russert rapped Dean for calling Dick Gephardt’s expensive health care proposal “pie in the sky.” Some big spender. Dean’s defense of the death penalty in extreme cases was even more eyebrow-raising:

“The problem with life without parole is that people get out for reasons that have nothing to do with justice. We had a case where a guy who was a rapist, a serial sex offender, was convicted, then was let out on what I would think and believe was a technicality, a new trial was ordered, and the victim wouldn’t come back and go through the second trial. And so the guy basically got time served. … So life without parole doesn’t work either.”

more...

[cprise]

5. I wish I could have seen that

"I'm disappointed in Joe,"

Has any candidate come out and attacked Lieberman's record? The above may be the closest thing to criticism that we've seen so far.

[TheDonkey]

9. Better than last week's debate??? no

This debate was definetly not better than last weeks debate which left such sweet lines as, "miserable failure," as well as other great Bush jabs.

Perhaps they didn't focus enough on their agendas rather than tear Bush a new one, but for us DUers we already know their stances so hearing someone on TV stick it to shrub was delightful!

Kerry I didn't think did very well this time around, his cloosing comments were very good though imo.

Edwards giggles a LOT. ;)

[w13rd0]

16. I find myself liking Edwards...

...on a "personal" level. I'm not voting on a "personal" level, but I can see why, on the Daily Show, when Jon asked DK which of the candidates he liked, Dennis mentioned Edwards.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

11. seeing as Kerry is ahead by several touchdowns

Dean sure needed it.

And I refer to Kerry's many, many, many years as a public servant- NOT any polls
or other popularity contests conducted on the concert tours.

[CMT]

12. they both are outstanding public servents

Kerry serving his country in combat and the US Senate. Dean serving his community as a physician and his state as a successful Governor.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. agreed

but Kerry is not only 5 years older but started his career of service at a much younger age.

[fla nocount]

18. Man o man

I hope that come 2004 I'm voting for a change and not an alternative. The DLC and DNC as well as their canidates suck eggs....BIG TIME.