How do you even answer this? My mother-in-law at lunch yesterday...

[lavenderdiva]

once again, revealed just how ignorant she is of how the world works. I sat there stunned and marveled at how someone can function and seemingly be rewarded by the universe for such a mindset. It was her 77th birthday, so we all went to lunch: mother-in-law (MIL), father-in-law (FIL), my husband, and me. Keep in mind that I have known both my husband's parents my entire life, and had a very close and loving relationship with both of them, and really do have great in-laws, in the scheme of things. They are both kind and generous, and very sweet. However, in our politics, we are cut from VERY different cloth. They are staunch Texas Republicans. We are not. Nor are their other son, his wife, and their children. At least they are outnumbered!

Anyway, at lunch, they were talking about how my niece, who was to go to college next year, has decided to take a year off and go volunteer with Planned Parenthood in Mexico. I thought this was a fabulous idea. FIL hated the idea; he thinks she should go straight to college. MIL liked the idea, but somehow twisted the conversation to reveal that she thinks 'Women's Libbers' have just gone out-of-control, and why can't young girls think its ok to be stay-at-home moms, and not be so independent? I first told her that I was raised by one of those 'Women's Libbers', and taught to be very independent. Then I shared that many young girls (and older girls, like myself), may have had a dream of being stay-at-home moms, but today's economy doesn't allow for that. I told her that there was an article in our local news paper this past weekend, about people making around $50K who have insurance currently, and yet are one major illness away from bankrupcty b/c of co-pays, premiums, medications, etc. (Note: In-Laws are exceptionally well-able to afford the absolute BEST medical insurance, and whatever it and Medicare doesn't cover, they are never going to go without; my husband and I don't have any insurance, and haven't been for check-ups in over 3 years b/c we can't afford it, nor can we afford any prescriptions-- both trying to find jobs) I told her that I too, would love to be a stay-at-home mom, but I am not in a situation to where I can ever think about having children, b/c I have to work, and we have no healthcare, no income, (and hopefully won't lose our home this year, if we are lucky). Then she says that companies HAVE to provide healthcare insurance! Nope, I say, the only thing that companies have to provide is a minimum wage which is currently $5.15/hr. FIL pipes up, "They do have to pay workman's comp". I say that companies don't treat you nowadays like they did back in the day when FIL was working (he worked for same company for over 40years and was extremely successful). I say companies are not loyal to their employees. MIL says that started when employees started 'shopping around' for jobs, so then companies started being less loyal to employees. She says that there's too much government regulation of companies, so their hands are tied, and they can't do for employees like they used to, and would like to (Ha!, says me). Too much government regulation, and too many lawyers, she says. Lawyers are what's driving up insurance costs, she says, with all those frivolous lawsuits. I say that I don't think that is the case about lawyers, and that insurance companies are making money hand-over-fist, and offering less and less in the way of benefits to the consumer. FIL pipes up, 'if they are making so much money, then how come their price on the stock exchange isn't more, its very low'. Got me stumped there (if indeed that is the case, is it anyone?)

I just don't know what to say to these people. I think they are like a lot of people out there (not the majority, I know, b/c I think the majority are truly struggling, like my husband and I are, so they are more sensitive to these issues). People who have lived very traditional lives and roles. Whose welfare and income was never in doubt, who profited enormously from loyalty to their company and by their company, in a time when one could do so. Whose lifestyle was entirely traditional: wife worked a very short time when first married, but then quit when the kids came along, and was lauded for doing so. Totally played company wife, and did all the 'right things', b/c she could afford to do so. She could afford to do so b/c hubbie was secure in his job, and she had great latitude in her options. They never worried about not having insurance or not having a job. All she had to worry about was what to serve for dinner (she could afford to go grocery shopping), keeping the house clean and tidy, taking the kids to school, picking them up, and planning the next vacation. They absolutely love BUSH and constantly contributed to his last campaign. Wrote nasty letters back to Kerry when his campaign wrote asking for a donation for his campaign. They just don't 'get' how Shrub and his policies, and the Republican regime make it impossible for us to lead those kind of traditional lives/roles, even if you would want to. All they listen to is FOXNews, and to this day, will argue with you, that indeed WMDs WERE found!

I don't know how to respond to these people anymore, except to smile at some point, for the sake of my husband, and just let the conversation drop. I don't think they respect me or my husband and our choices, and that angers me. Anyway, I needed to vent, and get some choice replies from my fellow DUers, 'cuz I know that you always come thru for me! Thanks in advance!!

[Blue Gardener]

1. Some people are just hopeless

Doesn't matter how many facts you have, the kool-aid drinkers aren't going to listen. Just keep stating your case and hope for the best.

[ET Awful]

2. There are two reasons the stock price he asked about is lwo

First, there are different classes of stock for any given corporation, not all are publicly traded.

Second, the stock that IS publicly traded is low because they issue more shares. If companies A and B have the same net value to their total outstanding stock, but Company A issued 500,000,000 shares, and Company B issues 1,000,000 shares, Company A's price per share will be much lower.

[librechik]

29. thanks for that info, ETA!

I know a lot of folks will find that useful!

[lavenderdiva]

38. Thank you for explaining that... I know nothing about how

the stockmarket works. Don't have enough money to invest, but I guess I should at least understand it, as it affects so many things in our day-to-day lives.

[ET Awful]

60. I only know because I've been involved in forming corporations before

when I worked as a paralegal :).

Many corporations have different classes and different types of stock. Common Stock is most often the stock that is publicly traded.

Then you have Class A, Class B, etc. Preferred Stock, which is issued in a less public manner and usually carried a higher value, more say in the direction of the corporation, higher dividends per share, etc.

[lavenderdiva]

61. my head is spinning... n/t

[NMDemDist2]

3. Insurance Industry Profits Skyrocket 320%

; So-Called "Tort Reforms" Unnecessary;. Lawmakers Should Focus on Rate Regulation.

Santa Monica, CA -- The insurance industry registered a 320% increase in net income for the first nine months of 2003 as compared to 2002, according to a recent study by the Insurance Services Office (ISO) and the National Association of Independent Insurers.

Throughout the year insurance companies have argued that they cannot be profitable unless lawmakers around the country limit the rights of consumers to file insurance claims. This new profit data proves that the industry can be wildly profitable without further limits on the legal rights of injured consumers. "The insurance industry has told every lawmaker in the country that it cannot be profitable without restrictions on the legal rights of consumers, but this data showing a 320% increase in profit proves that the industry has been lying," said Douglas Heller, senior consumer advocate with the nonprofit, nonpartisan Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights (FTCR).

"This information should put an end to all talk of so-called 'tort reform' and open up a new discussion about regulating insurance rates." Consumer advocates have called on lawmakers around the country to implement a system of insurance rate regulation based on California's 1988 voter initiative known as Proposition 103. That law requires insurance companies to justify rates to the Insurance Commissioner prior to implementing any rate hikes. It also allows the public to participate in the ratemaking process and scrutinize insurance company books. The law has been a major success, with auto insurance rates, for example, declining over the past 15 years in the state, even as they've risen everywhere else in the nation.

According to FTCR, there are two primary reasons for the recent jump in profits nationwide: massive rate increases and an improved investment climate. Insurance rates, which have been increasing at an unprecedented clip in recent years, far outpaced the increase in overall claim- related costs, according to the study. Some of the most dramatic data were in the area of investments: the value of insurers investments swung dramatically in the industry's favor during 2003. "The real story the insurance industry has faced recently has nothing to do with claims and lawsuits, but with investment income. The past few years have been very tough on anybody with investments, including insurers. But unlike most Americans, who had to tighten their belts during the economic downturn, insurance companies refused and instead tightened the noose around consumers to squeeze huge profits out of policyholders," said Heller.

[hollowdweller]

11. That would be my response. Corporate profits are at an all time high. Back

in the 80's when times really were rough for some companies the concept of cutting benefits and outsourcing at least had a LITTLE justification, but now most companies are rolling in money but that fact has not really bubbled to the surface in the public mind by and large.

[izzie]

21. Thanks for that. My father used to tell me this. So I always know

they were always making money. Their profits are put into things like very large projects also but they never have paid great in stocks I think.

[librechik]

32. great post, AZ--is there a link?

[jab105]

50. Doesn't say where its from...but here is where it is...

http://www.allstateinsurancesucks.com/profits.htm

[lavenderdiva]

53. thanks jab105 n/t

[NMDemDist2]

62. this is a better link from the org the article quoted

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/

[librechik]

64. thx!

[lavenderdiva]

39. this sounds like a great read. Do you possibly have a link? n/t

[UL_Approved]

4. They need experience in the world of today

Your FIL needs to see what it is like for people who work in non-union jobs, work for minimum wage, and to see just how hard it is for people to actually get a job these days.

And you need to drag up the statements by Powell, Rumsfeld, and Cheney about the WMD threat being fictitious.

But for the most part, these people are insulated by having made good economic choices when the U.S. was more prosperous. If one of them gets cancer, though, they will learn the terrible lesson that awaits so many people. Or a stroke, a heart attack, etc...

[Buns_of_Fire]

36. My mother's the same way

She always used to say, "Why don't 'these' people just go out and get a job? I did! I don't understand it!"

"That was 50 years ago, mom. Things have changed."

"We used to pay $75 a month for our apartment, with all utilities included. Now, these people want $300 a month, and they don't include any utilities. I don't understand it!"

"That was 50 years ago, mom. Things have changed."

"The lines are so long when I go to the doctor. I have to wait, and I see people going in there all the time ahead of me who obviously can't afford anything. Why should I have to wait? I don't understand it!"

"That was 50 years ago, mom. Things have changed."

Finally, I've gotten to the point where I just let her chatter on and don't say anything. She's right: She doesn't understand.

[SharonAnn]

75. What's amazing is that her son and DIL are in that situation and

she doesn't GET it!

She probably thinks that the * tax credits would help her son and DIY get health insurance and would never realize that if they have no money and don't pay taxes, tax credits are of no use.

Anyway, that MIL must be the sister of a lady I sat at a brunch with recently who went on and one about all the crimes the Clintons got away with and she couldn't believe they got off scot-free and they should both be in prison, especially Hillary "after all she's done". She thinks its just awful that people with all those connections, like the Clinton's, can commit all those crimes and still stay out of prison.

One simply doesn't know where to begin.

[punpirate]

5. Quite specifically, on the matter of insurance...

... frivolous lawsuits are already covered in the law--any judge can determine that there are grounds to proceed or not and can throw out any suit deemed frivolous--that happens and quite frequently.

Second, the insurance companies operating in Texas have recently admitted that judgments in medical malpractice lawsuits are a "negligible" portion of operating costs (that from the subsidiary of GE which is the largest medical malpractice insurance provider in the country). Previous studies show that personal injury and malpractice awards represent less than 2% of insurance company operating costs.

The recent wave of increases is mostly due to exceptionally bad investments and discounted rates made by insurers in the `80s when interest rates were high.

As for "WMDs were found" routine, there's probably little one can do about that--it's intentional and meant to protect some fragile egos having to admit an error, as is the "workman's compensation" argument. Your FIL knows very well that workman's comp only applies to on-the-job injury, and is certainly no substitute for comprehensive health care.

Your in-laws are insulated from the many problems in the country today, and in part, that insulation comes from a business system which operated well for them years ago, and does not now for many employees. That's part of the reason why they don't get it. They think life is somehow exactly as it was decades ago, and as many of us know, it certainly is not.

Sometimes, life's realities have to catch up to such people before they begin to question their assumptions. You might just have to live with that....

Cheers.

[lavenderdiva]

41. Hey, punpirate! You make some excellent points...

It sounds like you know what you are talking about! Might you, perhaps be an attorney?

'Second, the insurance companies operating in Texas have recently admitted that judgments in medical malpractice lawsuits are a "negligible" portion of operating costs (that from the subsidiary of GE which is the largest medical malpractice insurance provider in the country). Previous studies show that personal injury and malpractice awards represent less than 2% of insurance company operating costs.'

Would you have a link or reference for this? My in-laws were very active in getting people to vote FOR the recent changes to Texas insurance laws. Yes, those laws that helped Texas residents to LOSE a lot, if not most, of their rights to sue insurers. MIL campaigned vigorously, saying that we needed to help doctors stay in Texas, by lowering their premiums for malpractice coverage. She would explain that the reasons their premiums were so high was b/c of all the frivolous lawsuits they were subjected to. Great idea! Let's eliminate the options of everyday citizens when they have been operated on incorrectly, etc. and that will help the insurers lower the costs to the doctors; thereby giving them ample reason to stay in Texas. The same doctors who amputated the wrong leg, for example! Circuitous reasoning, I know, but hers all the same!

Anyhow, your reference targets this argument directly, and sounds like a good read, if you have more info...

[punpirate]

73. Here's the background story on...

... the statement by GE Medical Protective when they announced they were raising rates:

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=38849

The 2% figure comes from a lawyer I know.

One of the other interesting things I found was an article by the head of the Dallas Trial Lawyers Association about malpractice control in Texas, but I can't find it right now. In that article, he stated that about 6600 malpractice cases had been referred to the Texas Medical Examiners Board for review in the couple of years prior to the Texas constitutional amendment and by the time of the writing of the article, not a one had been reviewed. And, he said that no doctor had lost a license to practice in Texas since 1988.

Cheers.

[democrank]

6. Might as well talk to a brick.

The rightwing Bush supporters I know seem to have one characteristic in common...a lack of empathy. Anyone arrested must be guilty, anyone poor must be lazy, anyone who supports women`s choice is willing to kill babies, anyone who speaks out against Bush is unpatriotic, etc.

Facts don`t matter to these people. History doesn`t matter to them. What matters is that America`s military and (alleged) cultural superiority imparts the right to do whatever we want to whomever we choose.

[TaleWgnDg]

7. Well? When you marry a husband or a wife, you also marry

Well? When you marry a husband or a wife, you also marry the mother-in-law and the father-in-law. They are old. They are quite set in their ways. They are "comfortable" in these ways. If after all these years, they refuse to break the circle of ignorance that surrounds them, then they certainly will not do so in their senior years.

However, their ignorance of the world around them is not your problem unless you make it your problem. Hard to do, but continue to show them the deference that they deserve as your spouse's mother and father, and don't assimilate what they say. I suggest to do otherwise would cause more pain for all involved than any meaningful intervention would accomplish.

Regards and my heartfelt best wishes. This, from a "divorce attorney."

[lavenderdiva]

42. Good advice, thanks TaleWgnDg!

My late mother used to always say to look at your future spouse's parents to see how that person may well turn out! Be sure you can live with it! and that you were indeed marrying the WHOLE family. Did she happen to visit you lately? I don't think God is keeping her busy enough in heaven, 'cuz she's been foolin' with the lights around here in the middle of the night, and now it sounds like she has made it over your way...

[TaleWgnDg]

67. Hey, are we related? My mom said that years ago too and

I've passed it on to my own kids who are now all adults. Bless your mother, those light switches can be quite a bother! :shrug:

[JNelson6563]

8. Send her two books for starters

So that she might get a clue of how things are outside of her bubble. send her The Jungle and Fast Food Nation. Nickeled and Dimed wouldn't hurt either.

Julie

[BiggJawn]

9. "Hey Kool-AID!!!!"

They sure drank it, didn't they? "Companies would like to do MORE for their employees..."

They listen to Gush Pfleghmball, don't they?

[SheilaT]

10. First off, good for you for

standing up to them, and not just meekly letting them simply spout off their ignorant beliefs. It's clear you did it in a respectful manner, and it's equally clear that you tried hard to fill them in on facts they simply aren't aware of.

Part of their problem about the stay-at-home mom issue is purely generational. For someone now in their late 70s, the world was a very, very different place when they got married and established a family. Even a working class man could earn enough to fund a stay-at-home wife. It's also important to understand that back then it was possible to fund a reasonable life on much less money in a relative sense.

Keep up the good work, and who knows, maybe some day they'll really get it.

[demnan]

12. Not necessarily so

My Mom is in her 80s now. She worked during WW2 in the Torpedo Factory and also worked when I was a kid in the 60s. Women have always worked. Women worked on the farm, women worked in the textile mills, women worked at everything and everywhere. It really is a myth that women didn't work.

[The Flaming Red Head]

17. Both my grandmothers worked.

They had to especially during the depression, so did all of my aunts on both sides and my mother.

[izzie]

22. Right on. My mother worked from the house in season and---

that made it easier with little kids.

[shrike]

31. Damn straight

Women of color have worked outside the home for generations. Immigrant families had both parents working, and if they were lucky, a grandma at home to watch the kids.

And most people have no idea just how hard farm life was, particularly before the advent of electricity.

[lavenderdiva]

58. Hey, shrike...

would you please update us on your thread about Gabrielle's condition? We've been praying for her. Is she doing better?

[TrogL]

71. My mother didn't work until I was in University

However....that was in the 60's and my father had a well-paying job.

[The Flaming Red Head]

13. Pity them for their ignorance

they're being used to push an evil corporate agenda that will eventually hurt their grandchildren and great grandchildren and everyone that comes after them.

Be extra nice to them they really can't help it and it is very sad that they are being duped in this way.

I have worked for a lot of people with mindsets like that. I genuinely feel sorry for them because most are nice people who would never support the Republicans if they knew the whole truth.

[Vladimir]

14. Not much IMO

she lives in the fantasy world of free market capitalism where everyone is nice to each other, there is no exploitation and people who work hard get rewarded. To see that it is raining one must only stick one's hand out the window...

[The Flaming Red Head]

15. They're so old (late 70s)

really all you can do now is pity the fact that they'll leave this world without wisdom.

[izzie]

23. I think this is a funny story

My mother always worked and made good money but worked for her self. So when she got old and wanted to put a sun room on her house her tax man said to get a loan as she needed a tax write off. Well she came home mad as hell. I asked why and she said 'That bank wanted to know my income and I told them it was none of their business" I asked if she got the loan and she said no, "so I will either have to tell them or pay cash for the room." So much for being with it. She really was about most things. But life was a cash deal to her. Business was for loans but never homes, cars etc. Wish I could have lived like that.

[IrateCitizen]

26. Actually, many of us still can live like that...

My grandfather (who is now 86) built his house without taking a single penny in loans from the bank. It took him several years, but he just paid for it as he went along. He tells me the last time he bought ANYTHING on credit was about 1955, when he bought a car.

My parents haven't bought anything on credit for a good 20-25 years now. They remodeled their house with sweat equity. I remember building a new sunroom with a basement on their house when I was a teenager -- they paid for everything in cash, and we all did most of the work.

Many of us actually can live like this, if we're willing to eat meals in, live in lower-cost areas, forgo cable TV and electronics and new clothes every year, and do most of the work ourselves. The problem is we've become too attached to all these "things".

[ICantBelieve]

16. Tobacco companies???

So, what do they think of tobacco companies?

[Modem Butterfly]

18. Tell them that enough girls were raised by stay-at-home moms...

...whose supportive husbands left them flat broke that they finally wised up and decided to become able to support themselves. Just in case, you know.

[lavenderdiva]

44. your post made me smile! 'Just in case', ya never know!

my late mom used to say that exactly!

[Modem Butterfly]

55. My mom's mother was a stay-at-home who got left

Her husband left her at the start of WWII, and later got drafted because of it. She and her kids nearly starved while she found work in a cannery (my mom and one of my uncles both have skeletal damage from rickets). She remarried after the war, but she always had a job after that. She used to tell my mother and I that it was important to work. Because you never know...

[IrateCitizen]

19. You summed it up in your last paragraph...

I don't know how to respond to these people anymore, except to smile at some point, for the sake of my husband, and just let the conversation drop.

If they don't respect the choices that you and your husband have made, that's their problem -- not yours.

I have a similar relationship with my in-laws. They have been the most welcoming people, accepting me into their family like one of their own. But they're completely (and willfully) ignorant when it comes to politics and current events. My MIL actually thought I voted for Bush in the last election, if you believe that one! They're also much more materialistic than we are, and my wife's sisters and their husbands have made the decision to choose "things" over time with their family. My wife and I are determined to live a different life, sacrificing the ability to buy a 4-BR house right away in order to save money and live a more "full" life. My MIL just does not understand why we would do such a thing, but it's a complete difference of perspective that isn't very easy to overcome.

[librechik]

30. Housing is way overpriced--it would be stupid to buy now

enjoy the bubble while it lasts--

[IrateCitizen]

34. It's not if you're buying well within your means

For instance, when my wife and I buy a house in a few years, we will be moving out of the NYC metro area, and buying a house that we can easily afford and still save a lot of money too. That way, the only way we're really screwed is if the bubble totally bursts and prices fall to only around 1/3 to 1/2 of previous values.

[librechik]

35. oh, yeah, it's all location, too!

for example, I don't expect real estate in areas like NYC metro or, say Aspen CO to be heading south. Ever. But lots of places are hurting, and if you can manage to make a living in those locations, conditions are OK for buying, even now.

BTW, the everage real estate bubble depresses prices by about 14%.

It seems insane--a person has to pull in 3 times the minimum wage to even afford to have a meager roof over their head. How long can the RE industry sustain these profits? I have my little pension fund invested in a RE mutual fund, and last quarter it made 34%!!!

Crazy, cruel stuff.

[lavenderdiva]

45. Like you, I am most fortunate to have wonderful in-laws

for the most part! Funny thing is, though they are extremely well-off, they are the MOST non-materialistic people you may ever meet! You would never guess...
I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned 'willfully ignorant when it comes to politics and current events'. They most definitely have their mind made up, and 'don't confuse them with facts'!
Very sweet people nonetheless...

[izzie]

20. Hard to drag people into this day and age.

Ins. companies have never paid out well as they keep their money. They have always paid the worst percent in investments.They most likely come from the age when the Govt. educated them with the GI bill and the companies they worked for were the ones that were great when we in the USA led the world in productions, and the worlds money business. Both of which we do not do any more. His income was good because Unions made sure wages kept up with living cost and one person could raise a family. Your income to do the same will take two because your husbands wages did not keep up. Go to some of the social science things to fight back with their 50 year old thinking. Also Lawyers are not making ins. go up it is the ins. company that is doing that. I think I read that ins. co. cost on this is less than 1%. Also Bush's Tx has schools that rank almost the lowest in the country, and they have a bad rate on un-married mothers and all the rest of those things that give a place a good rating to live in. Maybe it is a point that so many are going to church and told what to think and can not do this for them self?

[tcoursen]

24. I think you handled it fine

I think you handled it just about as well as you could have.

I think a lot of the people who have responded are being a little harsh in calling these people ignorant. The world is certainly a lot differant than it was when they were working and growing up. They are basing what they believe on what they have experienced over their lifetime, which is going to be differant than what the younger people today are experiencing. Uninformed or misinformed would be fair, but to call them ignorant is not fair.

I know that some of my older relatives who are democrats believe a lot of the same stuff that lavenderdiva's inlaws are saying. Doesn't make them ignorant.

[Bridget Burke]

27. Ignorant is a pretty fair word.

It means they don't know. And apparently don't want to know.

Even in their generation, plenty of women worked. And not all older people are willing to let their brains go to waste; some of them are still learning.

Ignorant & smug about it seems to describe their situation. Especially when family members are experiencing a different reality.

[bloom]

25. here's an article

about Conseco: (Sounds to me like their stock is low because of a bad business deal - of course the CEO still makes out).

http://www.indystar.com/library/factfiles/business/companies/conseco/stories/2002_1004a.html



Compensation


     Wendt didn't receive any severance in agreeing to step down as CEO of Conseco on Thursday, but he still received a significant compensation package for his tenure.     The highlights:


    • $45 million: cash payment -- after taxes -- as a bonus to join Conseco in June 2000.


    • $8 million: cash bonus payment received in July 2002.


    • $1 million: annual salary, beginning June 30, 2002, which Wendt was taking in Conseco stock.


    • 3.2 million Conseco shares: Wendt also received them upon joining the company, contingent upon remaining at the firm through June 30, 2002. That stock would now be worth about $224,000, assuming Wendt hadn't sold any of it.

[lavenderdiva]

47. great article, bloom! Thanks for sharing.

I am going to save it, to read further, so I'll sound more knowledgeable next time this topic comes up with the in-laws, especially FIL. He's BIG into the stock-market, and I'm not. Trying to learn how it works though. Thanks again...

[bloom]

54. You're welcome!

Of course it pays for the Healthcare HMO CEOs to fight against universal health care with the salaries they make. And then they are bankrupting their own companies to boot. :grr:

[lavenderdiva]

57. excellent point... n/t

[Squeech]

28. Enlightened self-interest

When all of us do better, it's better for each of us, even those of us who don't specifically get more money or more stuff out of the deal.

Spreading prosperity around is good for everybody. A rising tide does lift all boats, but the way you get the tide to rise is not to give the yachts a bunch of gold ingots for ballast, but to try and set it up so (to badly overtax a metaphor) more small boatowners have the means to pump the bilge into the harbor. At minimum, if nobody goes hungry, there's less incentive to commit crimes.

Similarly, strong and responsive public health care is in everyone's benefit. Consider what would happen if urban ghetto emergency rooms didn't have the epidemiological tools to recognize a bio-warfare attack. Ever read "Masque of the Red Death?" Your gated community can't protect you.

And then there's what Jesus said. I like Matthew 25:40.

Hope this helps.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[mainer]

37. My poor kids are gen-Xers, and they're getting screwed

Your in-laws have no idea what the job market's like out there, or how kids in their 20's are being used and abused by corporations. My son, honors graduate with a bachelors in Biology, is now in his 6th month working at a major pharmaceutical company, but is still considered a "probationary hire" even though he's already supervising their permanent staff in the laboratory. Because they've classified him as an "independent contractor", employed by a separate agency, he gets no health care, no retirement benefits, nothing.

[tcoursen]

40. does he ever get off of probationary hire?

The company i work for classifies people as probabtionary for 6 months when they hire. I think they get medical after 3 months, but other benefits like 401K, vacation kick in after 6.

But at the 6 months, if we keep them, they get a raise.

Isn't it somewhat normal for their to be some restrictions and hold back of benefits at the start of employement?

[mainer]

65. Here's the problem -- it can go on for longer than 6 months...

because he's considered a "contract employee" of the intermediary company that actually does the hiring. What happened is, after six months of my son working for them, the drug company suddenly switched to a different contract agency. The new contract agency immediately hired my son to continue at his job. But now, since it's a new agency that's the intermediary, he has to start back at ground zero -- and must work ANOTHER six months before he's considered for permanent hire. In other words, he'll theoretically have to work a full YEAR before his "probationary period" is considered up.

[tcoursen]

66. assuming of course that they don't get another "new" agency

That is a crappy way to handle it. At least he is working and gaining experience. it must be a good sign if the new company kept him. They must like him if they didn't dump him when they dumped the other company.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

43. In general terms,

it sounds like your in-laws have the classic rePub mindset having simple answers to complex problems. If you think about it, nearly every repsonse from a rePub from * in down is at about the third grade level from a complexity point of view.
For example;
Global Warming? Can't be happening, the suns is just hotter is all.
Poor, low paid people? Made bad choices, are lazy or getting what they deserve etc, etc, etc,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[lavenderdiva]

48. Dyedinthewoodliberal, have you been talking to my MIL too?

I can't believe you brought up Global Warming, 'cuz this was an issue she goes on about-- According to her, there is NO SUCH THING! She says there have always been fluctuations in the earth's core temperatures, and nothing has changed, but that those Liberals are putting bunk out there! FIL is a geophysicist, and you would think he, of all people, would be aware of global warming and the current trends, BUT NO! Heaven help us.... my, oh my.
Your second point is on target too; if you can't afford it, you just didn't work hard enough. Simple as that!

[Cleita]

46. Considering her age, I can see why she thinks a woman's

place is in the home. That's the way she and most of us were brainwashed before the sixties. Back then a woman's fortune was determined by what kind of man she married, if he was successful and could bring home the bacon, or if he wasn't and they lived in poverty all their lives. My mother always drilled into me that it was important to marry a man with a profession, so he could support me comfortably.

What I don't understand is why these old dames, can't see the reality around them. Most women work today, even the affluent ones. Unlike my mother who was a housewife, I worked all my life. It's like they think the women have a choice about this. This has changed women's fortunes because today a women can rely on her own earning power to determine her affluence and she doesn't have to rely on her husband's earning power for her good fortune.

[tcoursen]

49. why they don't see it

I don't think they see it because the old people hang out with other old people. They live in retirement communites with other old retired people. They go to church with other old people. Their friends are all old. The only young people they know are the relatives, and how much time are the younger relatives spending with grandparents? And when you are together how much of that time is spent talking about politics and jobs and the economy? In most cases it probably isn't that great a % of the time. I know when i go to visit my granparents that kind of stuff just isn't one of the topics. Comes up sometimes, but not very often.

[lavenderdiva]

52. Your mom and my late mom appear to be on the same page...

She always drilled into me that it was just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as a poor man. Hmmm... I too, needed to marry a professional, so he could support me. I did need to go to college and study something, so I would have 'something to fall back on, b/c you never know'. Oh my. So, I went to college and earned 2 engineering degrees, to her great pleasure, and my dismay; I have never used either one of them, and don't intend to start now. I married a man, who while brilliant, never graduated from college, but has taught at several colleges himself. Ya never know!

Funny, my mom was a stay-at-home mom until we were in high school, and then she went into real estate, eventually getting her broker's license, and did pretty well for herself. She loved what it did for her self-esteem, etc. As much as she loved her job, and loved all the rewards it brought her (both tangible and intangible), she always viewed her career as a choice. Unfortunately, most of us don't have that luxury.

My MIL thinks that all women who have children should be at-home with them until they go to college. Doesn't really understand that, for most people, that is not an option. They may deeply want that option, but its never going to happen. Like you said, 'they can't see the reality around them'. Sigh...

[coffeenap]

51. This is why I don't go to lunch with my MIL anymore!

[lavenderdiva]

56. Ha! Smiles...

Don't have that option, we live in the same city about 10-15 minutes apart. Used to live next door! Can you believe that...

[WLKjr]

59. Problem is they are still living the 50's

Republicans always want to go backwards, never forwards. It's what my grandpa (a great depression kid) always told me. Said that the party of FDR was the one that has vision for the future and try to make it so.


your mil and fil want to go back to the way things were that's all. I am sure one day some of us will be the same way.....

times have changed, they just can't cope with it.

[sandnsea]

68. 70 year old seniors, the WORST

They didn't suffer from the Depression or WWII really, but got all the benefits of that generation. They're awful and totally out of touch with the way things are now or what it means to suffer economically. I know alot of them and they drive me nuts, just like the OP's in-laws. If we lose social security, it'll be because of these idiots. Depression seniors would never have let it happen, but they're dying rapidly.

[LiberalinNC]

63. She sounds like my mother in law

Your first mistake was to try and make sense of your answer - when it comes to my mil I let her talk, (Blah, Blah, Blah is all I hear) shake my head like I'm listening and agreeing and say something like "ya know, you maybe right"...then walk away. Of course the second I get away from her I'm laughing my ass off!

Sometimes it just doesn't pay to disagree w/ folks like that, epically at that age.

[jayfish]

69. I Had Some Help For You...

but apparently the story has been scrubbed.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/01/11/health.care.priorities.ap/

<SNIP>
Bush is seeking a $250,000 cap on non-economic damages that compensate for pain and suffering, saying large malpractice awards are driving up the costs of business and insurance and forcing doctors to give up their practices.

A Congressional Budget Office analysis said malpractice costs represented less than 2 percent of overall health care spending in 2002.
</SNIP>

I still have the quote and link from an e-mail message I sent to a local radio moran. The story is from 2005 so I can't imagine why it has been deleted :eyes:

Jay

[lavenderdiva]

70. Yup, its been scrubbed!

From what you posted, it sounds very similar to what they passed here in Texas recently. Last year, I think. Miraculously, voters here were FOR it! I just never can fathom why people are sooo willing to vote their hard-won rights away. About your article, somewhere on DU, I read a post where there's some site that actually catalogs articles so they won't be scrubbed everywhere. I'll have to try to find that site and check for your article. Thanks for trying!

[jayfish]

72. We Caught A Ton Of Scrubbing...

in the lead up to the war. It was a real hoot. FYI, I double checked the link by doing a google search on a couple of key-word form the article. It's definitely gone.

Jay

[Andromeda]

74. There is nothing more you can do...

They have their minds set and if they are well-off Republicans -- well, that's even worse. There's no incentive for them to change. After all, they have everything they want so they can't indentify with middle America.

Just continue the way you are and for your own sanity, don't discuss politics with them anymore. Usually it's harder to change a 77 year old mind, unless their lifestyle suddenly changes for the worse.

Then, they would be hollering louder than everybody else. You can bet your life on it.