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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:29 PM
Original message
The Rich are Wealthy Because They Are Moral and Hardworking
Edited on Wed Feb-16-05 02:32 PM by ulTRAX
The rich are wealthy because they are moral and hardworking. The poor are so as a natural consequence of their bad life decisions. It's an argument frequently used by the Right. Neil Boortz was making this argument yesterday and on its face there may be a bit of truth here. Someone who chooses to go to college will mostly likely earn a bigger lifetime income than someone who dropped out of high school and farted around with his buddies. It's also a morality tale that fits well with many fundie Christians who see God dishing out material rewards and punishments and where else in a capitalist nation but in the marketplace.

Yet it's a belief system that conceals more than it reveals. Obviously are the matters of race and privilege which also play roles in one's "success". Yet there's a deeper flaws.

Carried to its logical next step this belief system assumes that if EVERYBODY were virtuous and hardworking... they'd ALL be well rewarded. Clearly this belief is oblivious to the workings of the market. If everyone had an MBA then supply and demand dictates MBAs would be in over supply and end up at burger joints, being PCAs, and custodians working for peanuts. The economy may grow but will never have an endless supply of "good jobs" and while some will be richly rewarded, many will be devalued and penalized.

This belief system uses a circular logic and is a classic example of a self-justifying ideology. It requires market outcomes, as unequal as they may be, to be moral. Therefore it must find a reason to explain that inequality. What better way than to blame the victim and not the system. It's the perfect ideology to be hijacked by Right-wing market apologists.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's a partial truth that conceals a deeper problem
I am a capitalist and I do believe that markets, when properly regulated, are the best economic system. But the problem is that not everybody starts at the same place. There's no level playing field, and maybe the playing field can never be entirely level, but it can be a lot more level than it is now.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. example: Ken Lay, Bernie Ebbers and the other mafia CEO's
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Most wealth is inherited, not earned.
I agree, there is NOT a level playing field.
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cattleman22 Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. Yet most people who are millionaires or more, inherited very little.
At least according to The Millionaire Next Door.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
46. Don't Be Too Sure
That book was roundly criticized in economic and financial circles because it used dollars not people. If one does that, then Allen, Gates, Bezos, Ellison, and Buffet have already skewed the analysis. They grew up middle class and have a combined net worth of over 180 billion dollars.

But, they are only FIVE people out a few million millionaires in this country. The author, using the net worth and determining the percent of that net worth that these folks started with created a skewed analysis, on purpose, to prove a point.

When one looks at it the other way, there is a high fraction of rich folks who were born rich. And, that high fraction does, indeed, exceed 50%.
The Professor
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taught_me_patience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. there's no level playing field
look at the diversity of any fortune 500 companies' analysts then compare that diversity of those same companies' upper management. WHITE MALES get ahead a lot faster in the corporate world.

taught.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. Very true.
It totally discounts the fact that you can get rich by cheating, by stealing, or simply by being born to a rich family. None of those people earned their wealth, yet they reap the rewards of the system.

And plenty of people work harder than any of us will ever know, and yet struggle to get by.
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CAcyclist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I agree.
I have seen very hard-working people succeed and do well, and rich kids squander their resources, but I like to say that in order to get fabulously wealthy, you have to cheat in some way.

Point out any of the CEOs in the fortune 500 and tell me they actually earn what they are paid. What goes into their pockets comes out of the pockets of the people at the bottom actually doing the work and out of the pockets of the shareholders who buy stock in good faith and then see the insiders sell out and take all the profits.
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politicaholic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's not a caste system because a small % pull themselves out of poverty.
It's like saying that racism is dead because Bob Franklin, a black man from Atlanta, has never in his life been called the "N" word.

Justification can be made for every course of action. Poor people who pull themselves out of the cycle of poverty most often than not give tremendously back to their community. Those born with money more often than not choose faceless philanthropy.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. What does going to college have to do with morality?
"...and on its face there may be a bit of truth here. Someone who chooses to go to college will mostly likely earn a bigger lifetime income than someone who dropped out of high school and farted around with his buddies."

Frequently it has to do with opportunity and the belief that it will make a difference in one's life.

In fact, contrary to popular belief, great wealth is often obtained due to a LACK of morality, not the other way around.
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. I agree...
That much accumulated wealth is not a byproduct of effort or traditional morals such as frugality. It can be the result of inheritance, luck (Bill Gates), or ruthlessness.

My only point is that I don't believe the above explains all. SOME wealth is surely a byproduct getting a better education, hard work, creativity, etc. That's all I meant by my example of someone who is willing to defer income to invest in their future by going to college.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. That's the typical Conservative/Authoritarian worldview
It's very punitive towards those who have been oppressed. It's a blame the victim stance.

I'm not wealthy, but I have no doubts that because of my family of origin background, my easy access to college, my success in college in a white dominated culture, and my whiteness and class in general, has made the road much smoother for me.

There are varying degrees of the isms. For example, I experience classism, but not as severely as others. I have not been a product of nepotism, my parents were not wealthy and well connected, but I also have not had access to opportunities extremely limited to me as many of the poor or minorities have.

People who are double or triple hit, experience the most severe oppression. For instance, black women are the poorest segment of our society because they are hit with: racism, sexism and classism.

Bush's Culture of HATE is perpetuating:

racism
sexism
homophobia
classism

It's up to us to keep talking about all forms of oppresssion and work toward alleviating them.
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Sequoia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. When Petey boy Wilson (R of course) was governor of Cal he said
that poor people do not like their kids because they have too many and can't afford them.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. what a sick fuck!
Those who have to worry about where the next meal comes from, often don't have the time and resources to be PERFECT parents. It's a lot easier for someone who has no financial worries, can hire childcare, cleaning services, eat out, and the best of the best for their kids.

Poor people love their children as much as wealthy ones. To say, that poor people are inherently 'bad' is cruel.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yes, like Paris Hilton
Edited on Wed Feb-16-05 02:54 PM by Radical Activist
I think bringing her up destroys the entire argument in two seconds. Is she moral and hard working? Ha! And she is no isolated case.

Just imagine, because of Bush, Paris Hilton won't have to pay any money on the millions she inherited or the millions she makes yearly from stock investments. That is how Republicans "reward hard work" as they say: by making sure the idle rich live in luxury, tax free. I bet the housekeepers who clean Paris Hilton's mansions pay more income taxes than she does each year, assuming they aren't illegal immigrants that don't pay taxes.
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
37. Bingo! That's the moral issue.
Even ruthless types like Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller felt an obligation to donate some of their wealth to extremely worthy causes. Granted, many of their contemporaries lived in perfectly obscene wealth, but there were still some capitalists who believe inherited wealth killed one's incentive to work.

Fast forward to today, when GOP members of Congress get all misty-eyed because some billionaire's daughter will pay the inheritance tax. Meanwhile, the Republican Party wants to tighten up the bankruptcy laws, cut housing vouchers, and get rid of the tax deduction for providing health insurance. Either the GOP has its collective head up its rear end or they're a mind-numbingly evil bunch.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Remember too that donations to non profits are tax deductions
It's not always out of good will that they make donations. They need the tax shelters.

The Rockefeller's had public image problems they needed to overcome and this was in large part why they made so many donations. Fortunately, society did benefit from their donations in the long run.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that all wealthy people are evil. People are born into wealth for the most part and what they do with their lives is the real measure. Look at what Sorros or Gates are doing, for example.
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
58. I certainly don't believe that wealthy people are evil...
...nor do I believe poor people are good. There's quite a mix in both groups.

The point I was making earlier was that some of those 19th century capitalists did feel a moral obligation to do good with their wealth. I don't mean that they were necessarily fair or just men, and obviously their workers or competitors could be crushed due to the manipulation of power. But John D. Rockefeller, from what I understand, sincerely believed in tithing his income, and that behavior predated his great wealth. I also heard he was one of the non-flashy elites, refusing to spoil his children or indulge in some of the lifestyle excesses enjoyed by other Gilded Age types.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
47. Notice the similarities between * and Paris Hilton?
Both come from inherited wealth. Both appear on television way more than necessary. Both have no idea what it's like to work for a living. Both are extremely popular among idiots.

And, of course, both are as dumb as a bag of hammers.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
64. ROFLMAO
:headbang:
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HEIL PRESIDENT GOD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. Rich, Moral, and Hardworking
Like Snoop Dogg, Larry Flynt, and Paris Hilton.

But seriously, does wealth have any value unless others are poor? They only advantage of being rich is the advantage over people who are not.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. What bullshit! Nobody gets rich solely by their own efforts. . .
the "self-made person" is a myth.

Ask folks like Ben Cohen (Ben & Jerry's) or Warren Buffett. They'll be the first to tell you that they had help along their way in life.

Link:
http://www.responsiblewealth.org/press/2004/NotAlone_pr.html

(snip)
A new report, "I Didn't Do It Alone: Society's Contribution to Individual Wealth and Success," spotlights successful entrepreneurs and concludes that the myth of self-made success is destructive to the social and economic infrastructure that fosters wealth creation.

Martin Rothenberg, the son of a housepainter and sales clerk, grew up to become a multimillionaire software entrepreneur.

Investor Warren Buffett is the world's second-wealthiest person.

Ben Cohen co-founded Ben & Jerry's with no business background and walked away with $40 million when the company was sold years later.

While these three seem typical examples of self-made success, they're not. None of them believes they did it on their own. Like others profiled in the report, they attribute their success to many factors, among them public schools and colleges, government investment in research and small business assistance, contributions of employees, and strong legal and financial systems.
(snip)


IOW, most if not all successful people were born somewhere along the base paths if not actually "born on third base"


$$$

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BunnyPuncher Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Max Weber's book...
Edited on Wed Feb-16-05 03:20 PM by BunnyPuncher
The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism is an oldy but a goody that provides the original critical analysis of the connection between material wealth and morality.

Translations of Weber's stuff varies in quality so ymmv but as a sociology classic it should be widely available in many libraries.

Edited for speillung
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Welcome to DU, friend from the North!!
Sorry there's no pro hockey this season.

:kick:
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
38. Hello from Germany: More people should read Weber...
esp. more leftists should read Weber.
It's one of the most fascinating experiences I had. Too many people think they understand capitalism and too many people think they understand puritanism. What Max Weber called "innerweltliche Askese" (innerworldly asceticism) is much more complex.

His study of Benjamin Franklin is incredible.

As a leftist I feel seduced to reply to this thread:
I love capitalism, 'cause you don't have to work at all, to get rich and wealthy.

Dirk



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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
61. Innerworldly Asceticism, commonly know as the "Protestant
Work Ethic" motivates a particular form of social action. This spirit combines: (1) an passionate pursuit of unlimited wealth, with (2) a renunciation of worldly pleasure through consumption of wealth.

These motives lead to the rational reorganization of production based on rigorous calculation, maximization of productive efficiency, and high levels of reinvestment.

This contrasts with economic motives in pre-capitalist societies, where people are usually content with a level of production that meets basic needs, consume most of what they produce, and prefer leisure over increased income or production.

Wealth for Wealth's sake.


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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
55. Hi BunnyPuncher!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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BunnyPuncher Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Thanks guys!
:beer:

Cheers!
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
15. Anyone watch "My Sweet Sixteen" last night?
Sixteen year old California girl gets a party thrown for her to the tune of about five hundred thousand dollars...

She says at one point, "I deserve it because I've always been a good person." Then she proceeds to throw out all the freshmen who came to the party uninvited, criticizes her friend from New Mexico for wearing jewelry bought at Target and in other various ways demonstrates what a bitch she is.

Pretty much refutes this "wealth rewards virtue" sputum.
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
16. Wealth is the Integral of Earnings minus Spending dT
The secret to building wealth is to spend less than you earn.

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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
17. The causes of wealth & poverty are more complex than that.
However, it is true that habits of dissipation will definitely reduce your wealth. I grew up in hard-core poverty. We were so poor that when I joined the Army, my standard of living in basic training was a great improvement. Looking back on the families that I knew, I can think of something that each family, including my own, was doing that was holding them down. And it wasn't "the system".

My own father had no ambition. He never tried to learn a trade and so was minimum wage all the time. I can remember other poor families and each one had a problem. Drunkenness, lazy, too many children, drugs, gambling, etc.

I know others that I grew up with in those situations, and they, like myself, have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. They took advantage of opportunities for self improvement and are today at least comfortable. And I even know a few that are lower-end wealthy.

So people's actions are part, even a huge part, of the equation. But they aren't the whole equation.
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. people SHOULD take responsibility
But even if this was a pure meritocracy where everyone had advanced degrees... the market system will soon have a glut of over-educated people and their income potential will fall. Despite their education many would end up in menial jobs. In this regard the market reminds me of the grading systems used in many schools. It's not mastery of the subject matter that's important. It's protecting the grading system. To protect the "value" of the A or 4.0 there have to be losers who get a C or D.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. I agree, people have to work for it but...
we do not live in a meritocracy. Nepotism is alive and well. Oppressive forces make it extremely difficult and sometimes impossible for economic mobility.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
42. Cause or Symptom?
"I can remember other poor families and each one had a problem. Drunkenness, lazy, too many children, drugs, gambling, etc."

There's a scene in a Sayles' movie, Brother from another Planet, where one gains a different insight into these "problems". The Brother, a mute alien shipwrecked on earth and in flight from some otherworldly fascist police, chances upon a young boy, dead, with a needle sticking in his arm.

The Brother understands that the needle killed the boy, understood that it contains vile poison, but out of a need to understand why the boy would inject himself to the point of death injects the remainder of the heroin into his own arm. Then we see why.

Sayles uses a fish-eye lens to pan the cold fronts of the inner city tenaments; the endless unadorned cold brick and metal and glass of poverty. One immediately understands why that dead boy escapes into a heroin haze.

Not all problems are cause; some are symptoms. And while it is admirable that you raised yourself up by your "bootstraps", I suspect that even you (perhaps unknowingly) took advantage of the fruits of a century's worth of class struggle, from subsidized public education to the police force whose main job is to protect the very property you've been able to snatch for yourself.

    Moloch! Moloch! Nightmare of Moloch! Moloch the loveless! Mental Moloch! Moloch the heavy judger of men!

    Moloch the incomprehensible prison! Moloch the crossbone soulless jailhouse and Congress of sorrows! Moloch whose buildings are judgement! Moloch the vast stone of war! Moloch the stunned governments!

    Moloch whose mind is pure machinery! Moloch whose blood is running money! Moloch whose fingers are ten armies! Moloch whose breast is a cannibal dynamo! Moloch whose ear is a smoking tomb!

    Moloch whose eyes are a thousand blind windows! Moloch whose skyscrapers stand in the long streets like endless Jehovas! Moloch whose factories dream and choke in the fog! Moloch whose smokestacks and antennae crown the cities!

    Moloch whose love is endless oil and stone! Moloch whose soul is electricity and banks! Moloch whose poverty is the specter of genius! Moloch whose fate is a cloud of sexless hydrogen! Moloch whose name is the Mind!

    --- from Ginsberg's Howl

***

Coincidently, I just today had occassion to discuss an old sociology classic, Elliot Liebow's Tally's Corner. If you're familiar with that work, it basically rooted out the values and aspirations of a group of poor men that, jobless and without a future, hung around a street corner drinking from brown paper bags.

It turns out (and this was supported by much subsequent work) that the guys at the corner shared the same values and wished for the same things as their more "successful" counterparts raised in the more opportunity-full suburbs: They too wanted to provide for a family; rear and nuture kids; enjoy a modicum of material comfort; gain status by achieving consensual "success". The streetcorner represented retreat and defeat. In the absence of opportunity, their brown paper bags and outward apparent rejection of success-breeding behavior provided a salve for the deep disappointment they felt for their own lives.

If there was an equality of opportunity in America, maybe I'd stop complaining. In the meantime there's much to fight for.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
62. "Not all problems are cause; some are symptoms."
Edited on Thu Feb-17-05 05:34 PM by smirkymonkey
Very true! And this is exactly what Republicans do not understand.

Although I am not saying that people should not be held responsible to a certian extent for the direction of thier lives, frequently the despair of being born into a situtaion that grants one so few options contributes to the stagnancy of social/economic mobility.

In other words, I don't think the issue is one of morality but of a complex web of circumstances that leads people to work against their own best interests. Not to mention the many external forces that work against them.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. web of circumstances
To continue use of the Sayles' film, Brother from another Planet, one of the best parts of the film is near the end, when the Brother is running from the alien fascist police. He gets help from a slew of people. Janitors. Movers. Other blue collar people. In the end, after the police fail and the Brother is free, he points up to the skies with his thumb (remember, he is mute), asking if they too were "from another planet"...the Janitor that came to his aid shakes his head, no, and points down ... to earth. Class consciousness crosses all geographic boundaries. And the way forward is the way together, united in purpose, emboldened by what is right.

Great little film. I recommend it to all.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Thanks for the recommendation!
It's in my Netflix queue :)
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
19. People Get Rich In This Country By Being Ruthless
Edited on Wed Feb-16-05 04:12 PM by Yavin4
If you're not born rich, you need to have a "ruthless" personality in order to become rich. You need to be willing to do whatever it takes to get rich, including stealing from people in some form or another.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
52. Agree.
Count me out.

Perhaps the only conscionable way to get rich with no strings attached is to win the lottery.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
20. Like the bushies...if you're willing to do business with Hitler.
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
21. Didn't Donald Trump inherit his money and then lose most of it?
Because of "bad decisions"?
I still cant believe that that putz has a TV show.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Trump Loses Money On Casino Gambling
Do you know how bad a businessman that you have to be to lose money on a venture that pretty much guarantees you a profit?
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LondonReign2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
25. Stop Using Logic!
The people Boortz is speaking to will never agree with a logical argument over the pablum Boortz is serving them.
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. we may not be able to get though to the braindead ditto-heads...
But we need to frame this issue more clearly so more see though the Right's lies.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. As a traditional capitalist myself, I agree that this "system" the REICH
Right uses to justify their supply side non-sense works to fool people into believing that ENRON was O.K.

This crap from the right has gone to far.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
27. Puritans
Wasn't this similar to the Puritans? From what I remember from high school (about 35 yrs ago), the elect, or those who would be saved, were pre-determined before birth. The elect would be rewarded for their hard work on earth by obtaining wealth and status and they would go to heaven.

(This may be wrong, but I remember it because it seemed the ultimate in unfairness. You would strive diligently all your life, and if you failed you not only lost out on earth, but it was a sign that you were not one of the elect.)
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
28. Fortune 500
It would be interesting to see how many of the people on the fortune 500 actually built themselves up as opposed to inheriting the dough. I often think that in order to get ahead, it is not a matter of having principles, but rather are you willing to set them aside!
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
29. The richest guy I know has never had a job...
He "deserves" his wealth like my grandmother -- who after serving as a WAVE in WWII, losing her husband in the same war, and working several decades to support herself -- deserved to die in a condemned trailer park.

Do these people not know any actual humans, or what??

Do they think there would BE any wealth without people sweating away around the world at slave wages?
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
30. "Welfare Queens & their Cadillacs".. "Babies tossed from Incubators"
Anecdotal, code-worded gobbledygook :)
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
60. not sure where Reagan got his welfare queens.....
But the babies being tossed from the incubators was, I believe, a concoction of a PR firm. The daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador misrepresented herself as having been in Kuwait during the invasion and told this tale to convince the American People to support Bush's build-up to war.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. It's all PR garbage to skew public opinion and confuse
undereducated people into voting against their own interests:(
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
31. Unfortunately going to college isn't enough anymore
There are so many of us young people who have just graduated from college that there really aren't enough good paying jobs for us all. Aside from a few students with high GPAs and extra curricluar activties that interviewed with a few big companies who recruited on campus, the students, coming right out of college, with the best paying jobs had their parents or parent's connections get them that job regardless whether they graduated summa cum laude or just barely made it with a 2.0. Many of the rest of us struggled to find decent jobs. Many entry level jobs requiring college degrees, some of which are sometimes dead end, command salaries of under $25,000. If you are lucky and willing to work rotating shifts, you can make more than that without any degree. It really makes you wonder if it was worth it economically when the $400/month student loan bill comes every month.
As far as people making bad choices when they were younger which prevented them from going to college, I think that parents who make the decision to spend time with and be supportive of their children and encourage them in goals to go to college, feel that they are making a moral choice instead of pursuing their own dreams.
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ChairOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
32. bah. The point of a fair system isn't that EVERYBODY....
.... can make it big - that's obviously impossible, since we need garbagemen, etc, as you noticed.

Rather, the point of a fair system is that ANYBODY can make it big - ie, that the system provide substantial mechanisms for socio-economic mobility. It is specifically these mechanisms that republicans want desperately to destroy.

This is of course the height of stupidity, since most republicans are rather poor... but that's a different story....
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July Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #32
51. Well said, and an often overlooked point.
I would also like to see a little attention paid to the notion that capitalism and democracy, while complementary at times, do not have the same ends. The Bush ideology is that whatever's good for big business is good for the country, but that is only true part of the time. Corporations goal is to maximize profits, not ensure and maintain the common good. Yet every time Bush has a chance to choose between benefitting corporations or a large bunch of citizens -- whether patients, workers, consumers -- or the nation as an entity -- in preserving the environment, providing basic services and infrastructure, defending the nation from harm, the decision comes down in favor of the corporations. Every. Single. Time. He serves them, not the nation.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
41. It is just a rationalization
So the rich can feel good about themselves when they ignore the plight of the poor.

There never was a good scriptural basis for this, but it is part and parcel of puritan derived christianity.

There is no reason to believe that being moral and hardworking necessarily ever results in financial wealth, (the riches of the spirit being another matter entirely).

However, there is pretty good evidence (think Kenneth Lay) that immoral behavior can result in massive wealth, (poverty of the spirit being another matter entirely).
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
43. Its a bit more complicated than that.
Edited on Wed Feb-16-05 11:23 PM by kodi
I posted this the other day in another thread on alleged Republican Christians.

Items 5 & 6 dovetail with this discussion.

Ideology is defined as a political belief-system that both explains the world as it currently is and suggests how it should be changed. While many take people to task from being “ideological”, this only masks the pervasiveness in which our social views are influenced by our own political ideology. Generally speaking, there are three dominant political ideologies in US politics today. These are Liberalism/Identity Politics, Market Populism and Reaganism. The first is mostly confined to the Democratic Party, while Market Populism and Reaganism are present in both, with the latter far more prominent in the Republican Party. All three are utopian political ideologies in that they each offer a plan for progress towards some distant far off goal. These ideologies described are also “ideal types” in that one may not find any one person who believes all elements of any one type. In reality, there is a good bit of crossover. In addition, it is the party ideologists, those intellectuals who define what the goals of the party are and the programs by means of the world-view provided by the ideology that they promote and develop.

Reaganism is best seen as an ideological/quasi-religious worldview.

While Reaganism has deep roots in American history it has only recently emerged in any coherent form and is today the dominant political movement in the US. While the Republican Party is the home
of Reaganism, not all Republicans are Reaganists. While the Democratic Party offers the main opposition to Reaganism, it is influenced by it and some Democrats can even be labeled as Reaganists. While there are various traits and tendencies to Reaganism, I think we can say that Ronald Reagan provided a focal point to the movement along with some of its ideological direction. His years on the road as a spokesman for the National Association of Manufacturers obviously influenced his views. That Reagan provided the name and some of the direction of the movement is more historically bound than based on anything he actually did or accomplished. Reagan was the right man for the moment, the figurehead or prop the movement needed, the icon. The Iran-Contra scandal on the other hand provided the movement’s baptism, combining the survival of Reagan’s presidency with Anti-Communism and partisan defense and tolerance of clearly unconstitutional activities.

The Republicans who blindly followed Oliver North and his associates willingly crossed the line to radical and unquestioning support of their leader, thus providing Reaganism with its virulent character it still has to this day.

Six basic tenants or core beliefs of Reaganism, the elements that form the Reaganist worldview can be developed. One should keep in mind that we are talking here about a mass movement involving millions of people. While each and every Reaganist may not wholeheartedly support each of the following tenants, most will find them appealing.

The definition of a worldview does not so much define the individual as it defines a collective perspective.

1. America is the chosen nation, the light of the world, the city on the hill. Our system of government enjoys lasting legitimacy since our Founding Fathers were inspired in a Biblical sense. As Jerry Falwell says, “God promoted America to a greatness no other nation has ever enjoyed because her heritage is one of a republic governed by laws predicated on the Bible.” Therefore, if you complain or question the fairness of the US judicial system or the opening up of natural resources for economic exploitation for example you are the same as a heretic who falsely questions religious dogma. The Reaganist sees himself as the keeper of special knowledge, a Gnostic belief that he alone understands the true place of the country in history. Since the goals of America are above question, any means used to achieve these goals are allowed. Also due to this mystical/religious connection even those officials, who are elected, yet are unclean, dishonest, and immoral (such as the Reaganist view of Clinton) are to be expelled using whatever means necessary. Consider too Tom Delay wearing a miniature copy of the US Constitution around his neck, the legal document reduced to a totem.

2. Capitalism is the chosen system of America since as Falwell says, “God is in favor of freedom, property ownership, competition, diligence, work, and acquisition. All this is taught in the Word of God in both the Old and New Testaments.” So with the end of the Cold War we have an America not only victorious and vindicated in an economic and political sense, but in a spiritual sense as well.

That Americans are so successful and enjoy such luxury is based on this spiritual legitimacy we enjoy more than anything else. All means of “cashing in” are accepted with the exception of drug dealing that is permitted if the cause is just (The Contra and Afghan freedom-fighter drug dealing to fight Communism enjoyed the support of Reaganist administrations).

3. Thus carrying number 2 to its logical conclusion, government regulation (read as the followers of the evil FDR attempting to subvert Capitalism, a divine plan) is to be thwarted using any means available. Laws that help in this subversion of our Founding Fathers’ original intent are to be disregarded and stricken from the books. Notice how distrust of liberal government programs fits here so nicely, along with a Supreme Court or some Federal judge out of control (those pesky Carter/Clinton appointees). Capitalism, which provides us so many blessings will gain us true progress (utopia) if we allow it to proceed untrammeled. The best way to do this is by letting the chosen ones the best Capitalists) proceed without any obstacle since their success shows divine approval and will allow us to more quickly reach our ultimate (and unavoidable) goal. Where government can come in is in furthering US economic interests like corporate welfare, bailing out big business from bad decisions or economic strong-arm tactics and/or espionage against foreign governments/competitors. Notice here how privilege starts to equate with morality, the rich and well connected as the good. A return to pre-Christian master morality of which the best example is the current Reaganist occupant.

4. Considering the first three we conclude that this very special place called America must be protected at all costs against any potential enemy. Defense spending takes on a life of its own with any weapons system, which offers us even the slightest advantage, deemed as necessary and worth the expense.

The military itself takes on a mystical aura and receives unquestioned support. Failure to provide enough funding or support for the military is one of the mortal sins of Reaganism. The Federal government has after all few real responsibilities, providing for the common defense is one of them. The ability to return to our pre-Sputnik isolation and safety is worth whatever the cost (Missile Shield). In the same line, our so-called allies (actually dead beats and moochers) cannot be trusted since they lack the spiritual/political/economic legitimacy that we enjoy, not to mention that they are deeply jealous of our success.

5. Those who do not succeed in the US Capitalist system (the poor and other losers) have only themselves to blame since in the US system anyone no matter what their background, ethnic group, race, sex or disability can succeed (very broad definition of success) by hard work, diligence and following the rules. No one needs any special help since this only breeds laziness and dependency. People should not feel any connection to the Federal government in any socio-economic matter since this is Communism, which is the opposite of Americanism from a Reaganist perspective. In the same vain, drug addicts, alcoholics, even obese people have only their own weak moral constitution to blame for their problems. They justly deserve their fate.

6. Crime is the work of bad people. It has a bad smell to it, the smell of degeneracy, pot smoke and the ghetto. Only losers and moral degenerates commit crimes and thus are deserving of the harshest punishment, since only by employing the harshest measures will they realize their errors and turn their lives around. Notice here that almost any pursuit of money in the corporate arena, in the marketplace is morally acceptable, it is the low-class crimes, the violent acts against persons or property that constitute real crime, not “white-collar” offences against government oversight (which is illegitimate in any case).

This about this covers the six basic tenants. We can put an awful
lot of what they do under these and it also explains the smug self-righteousness that they exhibit.

Based on these tenants we can make the following observations:

A) Reaganism is plagued by an extreme confusion of values since it has mixed up Christian (and Old Testament Jewish) values with Consumerist/Capitalist values to the extent that it can no longer recognize a difference. The problem here is that these two value systems are in reality contradictory and mutually exclusive which means that the former gets talked about continuously in effect providing the pretty wrapping for the latter which actually guides their actions. This confusion has been so long in coming about and is reinforced by their attitudes in so many ways that they are totally blind to it. It also explains the blatant opportunism so common among Reaganists who go about “cashing in” any way they can with a clear conscience.

In short, the Market has become their god, they need no other. Christianity provides the traditional backdrop or prop, but is discounted in any real way, in reality more a type of marketing a form of window dressing.

B) Since this belief system rests very much on faith alone, any objective facts, which contradict it, are rejected in a very morally uncompromising way. Unflattering historical episodes are explained away as brief lapses, characterized as the necessary means to a noble goal or are ignored altogether since they fail to “fit the pattern” or are the result of “liberal/leftist slant.”

Much of what is said against Reaganism is dismissed as disinformation trying to subvert the country and its noble foundations. In all Reaganism is an unhistorical, anti-intellectual, anti-scientific, undemocratic, oligarchic movement, which has always been able to provide an alternative view (which they pay well for) to reject any heretical outburst against it.

C) Since the Reaganist observes that most of those organizing themselves against him or committing various crimes belongs to various minority or interest groups any prejudices originally present against those groups are reinforced and in the course of defending his view against their attack become virtues by this process to the Reaganist. Thus, his original small mindedness is promoted, given legitimacy. There is no need for him to change his views, to be objective, since he already enjoys the Truth; no amount of argument is going to change that.

D) So what is the difference between a Reaganist and a Conservative? In spite of some outward similarities, Reaganism has in effect gutted traditional American Conservativism. It is hard today to find an actual Conservative in the traditional sense. Conservatives used to distrust credit for example, trusting in money in the bank. Savings were considered a mark of temperance and pride. Mindless quests for goods or luxuries were frowned on, considered a mark of avarice. Conservatives did not just pay lip service to self-discipline, company loyalty, setting time aside for family and community, government service without self- aggrandizement, or even promoting a stoic life style but considered these ideals. Try to image a traditional Conservative supporting legalized gambling for example. . . It is impossible. There is little of this tendency left today, rather only the close-minded intolerance of Conservativism remains, but this is hardly its essence, rather only a bare hide. In effect, we are left today with this hide and the label “Conservative” which has lost all traditional meaning.


E) As this mass, unconscious tendency develops further those Judeo-Christian traits that were positive to society will weaken even more. Notice that in spite of all the talk of spirituality, morals and “family values” we become more and more an unfeeling, atomized, spiritually dead society, which defines success in purely materialistic terms. The Reaganists are not alone in guilt for the triumph of Consumerism in America, but they have been shameless in their opportunistic exploitation of it. With their opportunistic use of important labels and symbols, they have also weakened the meaningfulness of those labels/symbols.

Cynicism is the result.

F) Even before the Selection of Bush the Reaganists had shown continuously that they would sacrifice any of their basic principles in order to achieve some tactical or strategic gain. There seems to be no intellectual conscience or brake to the most cynical opportunism (in this way they most resemble the Russian Bolsheviks under Lenin). These moves made by the movers and shakers of the Republican Party/Bush Administration/Rehnquist Court do not go unnoticed and continuously undermine the credibility/legitimacy of the movement. This combined with E above could lead to a sudden drop in Reaganist support among the mass of their followers. Already we see a split developing between the Busheviks (that is those Reaganists who are “cashing in” as the result of Bush’s policies) and the great mass of Reaganists (the middle and lower-middle classes) who are economically losing ground.

Conclusions:

If Reaganism is ever to be vanquished it first has to be identified for what it is. It will have to be separated from the labels, such as Conservative and Republican (or Democrat) that it hides behind and confronted openly. We have here an intolerant, undemocratic ideology that masquerades as something it is not.

Perhaps it is time that we Americans started to evaluate our leaders and political movements by their actions, not by the pretty words and noble goals that they give mouth service to.

That we perhaps remember that we are the ultimate sovereigns of this country and that in the words of the old saying, that we deserve the government that we get.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Nice analysis
It is a complicated system. It also hinges it's appeal on pseudo-archetypic imagery, such as a historic fantasy of the "Main Street USA" image that never actually existed, other than on TV or at Disneyworld.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-16-05 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
44. What the Eff went wrong with ME?
I'm a "Privileged White Guy" who went to college, got me a degree and everything.

I make Shit Money.

I wonder why we HAVEN'T reached "MBA saturation". Must be some secret society that finds lucrative meaningful work for them all....
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flobee1kenobi Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. What the Eff went wrong with ME? pt2
I was just about to post the same-
College grad with honors-but unemployed
multiple IT certifications-but unumployed

Boortz has no grasp of reality

A friend graduated with a 4.0 gpa
He's a roofer-only job he could find

Please explain this to me Neil!
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DistantWind88 Donating Member (695 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. IT??
Edited on Thu Feb-17-05 07:50 AM by DistantWind88
Our company is hiring BIG TIME. We're based out of Fair Lakes, VA. Come join us.
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The Minus World Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
49. I absolutely agree.
Edited on Thu Feb-17-05 07:50 AM by The Minus World
In any society, there will always exist an underclass; invariably, the menial tasks - however little skill they require, or however little merit awarded to those who perform them - must be done, and they are done by those who have neither the skill nor the opportunity to ascend ranks into relative affluence.

The right-wing believe that everybody is capable of success within a capitalistic system, social inequities notwithstanding. They simply choose to disregard those who fall by the wayside, ascribing their "failure" to a host of fallacious factors, such as race, gender and sexual proclivity.

Something hardwired into the conservative ideology - which the Bush administration seems to want to take to its logical extreme - is the concept that success should only be rewarded, and mediocrity only punished. It is inevitable that, under unchecked conservative rule, the division between the two classes will become more pronounced until it becomes a tremendous chasm between the haves and the have-nots.

They are waging silent class-war against the middle- and lower-classes. Their silence and subterfuge is understandable, since they are greatly outnumbered, and must take care not to wake us while they rob us of our past, present and future.

This quote pretty much sums their whole skewed perception of the world:

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
- John Kenneth Galbraith
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newportdadde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
53. There is some truth to it but
it leaves out a lot as well. For example I'm in the IT industry, 5 years ago we had quite a bit of power as employees, raises were good etc. Now the positions have been erroded due to India offshoring. Now I made the right decisions, worked hard in school etc but an influx of cheap labor has put a hurt on these jobs.

I think getting ahead in this world doesn't require you to be all that smart or hardworking it requires luck, a bit of intelligence, good looks etc. I just watched a girl who is kate moss thin, been out of college 6 years, jump two job levels to a place it took an expert lady(not cool, not good looking) 25 years to get. So there you go.

Ultimate combos - Man - Althletic, outgoing, 6 foot tall, golfer

Woman - Altheltic, outgoing, height not all that important but needs to be a size 6 or less. Preferrably blond highlighted hair.

I've seen these combos climb to unbelievable heights, without qualifications or intelligence its really quite crazy.
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. market apologists will ALWAYS find a way to excuse market failures
newportdadde wrote: "......it leaves out a lot as well. For example I'm in the IT industry, 5 years ago we had quite a bit of power as employees, raises were good etc. Now the positions have been eroded due to India offshoring. Now I made the right decisions, worked hard in school etc but an influx of cheap labor has put a hurt on these jobs."

This is a perfect example of where American IT workers have been hit hard. But for the True Believer in markets... they will ALWAYS find some way to excuse this harm. To them the markets are guided by that invisible hand to make the best decisions for all. We saw this attitude in the Bush admin official who praised outsourcing as good for the economy. These market fanatics are a perfect example of a self-justifying belief system which starts with a conclusion then warps reality to justify it. The Democrats reinforce this belief system by implicitly working within it. Despite the abundant evidence of markets becoming dysfunctional and counterproductive ... say in the pharmaceutical sector, you'll never hear a Democrat directly challenge this belief system and say the market does NOT always deliver the best product at the best price. Without that opposition this belief system, essentially a secular religion, becomes reinforced.




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klyon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
54. Your opening statement is completely opposite to reality
Edited on Thu Feb-17-05 09:52 AM by klyon
You can work hard all your life, be moral(what ever that means) and never have material things. Material things do not equate to happiness. Great wealth, to me, means that you have taken more than your fair share for personal reasons such as greed. A moral person to me is one that feels compassion for other life and would never take advantage of the situation.

Religion has been turned on its head with thinking like morality = wealth.

KL
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ulTRAX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. it's wasn't my opening statement
I was merely restating on the beliefs of many on the Right like Neil Boortz.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
67. My early morning opinion...
Too many factors figure into the equation. ;) Neil Boortz and others who think like him are not living in reality.

Why is having money a sign of "success"? Every human being makes "bad life" decisions. Is making a bad "decision" that affects your financial life worse than one made that hurts others in much more personal ways? "Success" is very subjective. :)

As for the college angle, is everyone given the same access and rights to get higher education or training? Is every qualified and/or hard-working individual given the job they deserve? Is the workplace fair?

I could go on and on, but I have to get ready for work. :) :hi:



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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
68. I believe in a meritocracy..
.... and as such I believe in a 100% death tax. You should not be able to pass on any wealth to your children. In fact, you should not be able to buy them any education that isn't available to everyone.

In such a world George W. Bush would be driving a truck or something, because it is not his natural talent and hard work that put him where he is.

And the same for probably half the rich folks in this country. Without their daddy giving them a leg up, they would be still on first base. But as it is, they were born on third base and think they hit a triple.

Tip of the hat to, who was it, Jim Hightower? :)
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