I've been censured for posting on DU - ask me anything.

[The Doctor.]

I wouldn't call it an official reprimand considering the source but, on another site, I have been silently admonished for being a member of DU. (As well as not so silently...)

For a few months now I have posted at a site called "RightnationUS.com".
I am now no longer able to post there after painstakingly trying to actually discuss a topic rather than absorb insults for my positions.

As a moderate Republican, I have sought the ears and wisdom of others who are beginning to see that the ** administration is a travesty to America.
In seeking, I found a site that appeared to have a large enough membership that I might find others who have become disenchanted with **.
And I did find a couple.

Now, with my battlelust for a verbal fray, I threw myself headlong into many debates on the site.
I would wait for someone to say something stupid and I would point out that they might be mistaken.
I asked if maybe Barbara Boxer and the 12 others who voted against Condi might have had genuine concerns over her competence.
I pointed out that we went into Iraq to save our currency, NOT to 'liberate' the Iraqis or 'protect ourselves' from Saddam.

Like a real conservative, I even made some points about how government is getting bigger faster than ever under this administration.

And what was I met with?

Derision, by and large.

Because I did not agree lock, stock, and barrel with some of their senior members, I found myself being called a 'liberal' and a 'troll' instead of confronted on the topics in question.

Invariably, some self-proclaimed 'conservative' would ignore the thread entirely and try to make a case that I was a 'commie-loving liberal'... as if that made the facts I presented 'disappear'.

When I pointed out that no one could debate me on substance, I was ignored.
When they found out I post under the same name here - they banned me.

Thus proving to me which 'side' holds all the irrational spite and malice

There were a few intelligent people there, but enough ignorant ones to make me grieve for the future of our children.
I have disagreed with DU'ers as well, but I've noticed that it is RARE that anyone here will ignore facts of any kind.

That led me to this conclusion;

Most denizens of conservative sites are Ignorant.
Most denizens of liberal sites are receptive.

Now, I understand we all know this. I understand that here we believe we are correct and they are not.
But they are just as certain that they are right... and without any facts.

If you have time, check out the last argument before I was banned...

Was I rude?
Was I not factual?
Did I not ask reasonable questions?
What did I do to get banned?

http://www.rightnation.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=68503&st=80&p=682855096&#entry682855096

I am posting this both out of aggravation for the Ignorance of those who call themselves 'conservatives', and to let you guys know what a special place DU is....

A REALITY based community.

[Nite Owl]

1. Sorry

That does seem to be the reality of what they (conservatives) have become. It wasn't always that way and I think those here know that. The right relishes the division in our country, it's part of their strategy, divide and conquer. Not the America I love and I want it back. We love ya!

[regnaD kciN]

43. Hate to argue with you, but...

It wasn't always that way and I think those here know that.

...it has always been that way, at least since Nixon's presidency almost forty years ago, and probably back even farther, to when Nixon's mentor Joe McCarthy found that accusing your opponent of treason paid off, big time.

Even if you don't go back as far as McCarthy, when Nixon became president (bringing with him a bunch of zealots from the Goldwater movement), he elected a strategy of polarization, unleashing administration officials (usually reading from speeches by Pat Buchanan) to attack the patriotism and character of anyone opposed to his policies, and lumping them all into one big, undifferentiated group as enemies of the American people for which anything was fair game. Remember the Enemies List? Remember Nixon's embrace of the New York "hardhats" who physically attacked and beat unarmed, peaceful, anti-war protestors? Remember his characterization of George McGovern as Benedict Arnold? Remember how he began the ongoing Repug strategy of blaming everything on "The Sixties?" The thing is, as in the days of "Tail-Gunner Joe," this strategy worked. What the Repugs learned, and have remembered ever since, is that people, when they are confronted with a series of seemingly-insurmontable problems, can be distracted by giving them someone or some group to blame, for which they can safely express hate and contempt. It worked then and it works now. And it's why they are where they are, and we are where we are.

:-(

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ediacara]

53. What ultra-left?

Seriously.... Name names please, don't parrot RNC talking points. WHAT ULTRA-LEFT?

[Spiffarino]

55. How sad for you

...that you've let yourself be hoodwinked into thinking your RW leadership cares about you or your country. It's all about money and power, whitey. They send people like you who love their country and want to serve and protect and make you act as policemen while their buddies make a killing.

When you come home all shot up that's your problem. Buck up, soldier. They've got tax cuts to make so their buddies can get richer and you're by God standing in the way. Strap on your prosthetic leg and get the fuck out of there. There are more coming in every day and they're not about to raise taxes to improve the facilities. Go home. Oh yeah, unless you're a reservist. In that case, you've probably lost your job and your house. Oh well. We'll let the churches take care of you, you lazy fuck.

Sorry, but having been brought up in a very Republican family that produced three sailors and a Marine (all but one of whom turned Democrat), I am not at all impressed by your characterizations that the Democratic party has become ultra-left. It may have its share of commies, but no more than the Republicans have their Tim McVeighs and Randall Terrys. You apparently listen to too much Rush Limbaugh and have bought into his mammoth, drug-induced lies. Try airing your brain out a little before you mouth off about things you only think you know.

[slay]

56. Not all Democrats are liberals. And if you think liberals run the democrat

ic party, you are sorely mistaken. To me, the Democratic party represents anyone who is open to debate. If you can clearly state the reasons behind your beliefs, you have a place here. If you truly believe your beliefs to be correct, explain them to others here and I think you will find most people open to debate. Only by open, honest discussion can we hope to create a truly better world for everyone, not just the rich and corporations. This is not the party of doing as you are told. You are actually allowed to question the world we live in here! (I know, shocking isn't it?!?!) And today we are a better, stronger Democratic party with Howard Dean heading the DNC. Far too often Democrats are demonized by the right. Give us a chance. I think you'll like what you see. We want a better world as well as a better country.

[Dogmudgeon]

2. It's no longer partisan. It's tribal.

The shift has gone from political to cultural.

George Bush could declare a Proletarian Revolution and they'd follow him in a minute. They will support their Alpha no matter what he does.

The Deep Thinkers of the tribe will hold out for a while, long enough to burnish their Independent Deep Thinker credentials.

--p!

[lasttrip]

13. i'm sure that they will be first in line to sign up

for the next war as they are such proud Patriots.

[ultraist]

19. Yep, kinda like Nationalism or a cult

[Nickster]

3. I didn't see any problem with it at all.

But I have to ask this question. You see that the Republicans that have control of your party are, well, to put it mildly, crazy and you see that your values align pretty well with the Democratic party....sooooo...why do you still call yourself a Republican? What is it that still makes you think that the Republican party actually betters represents your values? This is an honest question, I'm not trying to stir anything up.

[stanwyck]

12. that's the critical question

why be a part of this group which seeks to dismantle our environmental protections, weaken our constitutional rights, burden our children with debt, engage in invasions based on lies, and deprive women of basic civil rights?
I agree with Janeanne Garafalo. Being Republican now is not a political choice. It's a character flaw.

[Liberty Belle]

52. Or an ingrained habit, or a familial pattern.

It does take courage to break with tradition. But today's GOP leaders have abandoned the party's core values. Republicans used to preach fiscal conservatism; now they run up red ink faster than any Democrat has ever done. They used to favor isolationism in foreign policy; now they promote pre-emptive strikes for little or no apparent cause.

They are also hypocrites, preaching moral values while enacting immoral policies that hurt the poor, the elderly, and the sick while benefitting only the wealthy and the big corporations.
Worst of all, the party is trampling civil liberties and human rights, condoning torture and imprisonment without trial even for citizens, indefinitely. They are turning America into a police state not so different from Germany in the 1930s. Ask anyone who lived in Germany back then. They see the connection, and they are terrified.

[The Doctor.]

15. I've explained this once before...

It boils down to a sense of theft... bereavement if you will.

Something has been stolen from me... from America, and I want it back.

My parents are still Republicans who buy the crap, they're good people... so It feels personal to me that these ignorant self-proclaimed 'conservatives' could hijack the loyalty of REAL conservatives like my parents.

Mother grew a victory garden once... and still does no matter where they live, dad fixes their vehicles himself even though they are six-figure earners and retired.
They carefully monitor their expenditures, how much they need, how much gas they use.
As a kid, I remember going to the store with my mother and watching her practically shop for free because of all the coupons she clipped.
They've been married for nearly 40 years.
My mother worked on the space program at MIT and wrote for the Boston Globe.
Dad is quite literally a rocket scientist - and now a nuclear engineer.
These are not dumb people.

They are real conservatives, and they have been fooled.

So you could say I take the hijacking of the party VERY personally as two people I respect have been taken right along with it.

That is why I will always call myself a Real Republican.

(It also doesn't hurt that I can get by most people's initial ignorance by stating I'm a Republican and then engaging them.)

[Why Syzygy]

25. I would put you on my buddy list

but I don't have a donor star.

Absolutely fascinating.

All walks.
Humanity is a trip a minute.

.. but EEK! you meann you have to cop to being a REPUBLICAN before you can gain any respect?

hm... double hmmmm..

[Lone_Star_Dem]

42. I watched my father, a life long Republican, become disillusioned

...with the people who've taken over his party. Even though our political ideologies aren't the same, it hurts me to witness his loss.

He sounds more like me now preaching about reform in his party.

[FreedomAngel82]

44. Everybody in my family

(except for me, I don't know what my brother is but he's anti-Bush) are republican. Not long before the election I was talking with my Mom about the republican party and Bush and we both agreed the party has changed too much. Now if you're a republican and you're not a Christian you feel like an outcast. It's all about sex and "being right." Know what I mean? My grandparents are life long republicans and members of the church. My grandfather was in the navy, worked at NASA in Huntsville, Alabama and is an Elder of his church. They both voted for Kerry and so did my Mom. My dad was uninformed and it's hard for me to talk to politics with people so I wasn't able to get to him. :( But I've gotten him to watch the "Daily Show" so it's a start and whenever I do talk to him about something that's going on in the news I get an uneasy feeling from him for some reason. :shrug: But I do agree that the republican party has been hijacked with the Bush administration. My mayor is a republican and he's a good one so whenever I talk to other republicans I show them my mayor and what he's done and ask them to compare the two and see who is a republican and who isn't. They're out there. Just very few in numbers.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ediacara]

54. What ugliness?

Again, I ask this question. Engage in specifics, rather than repeating RNC talking points. WHAT UGLINESS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

[Liberty Belle]

58. There's a compelling argument to be made that Bush

is creating more terrorists by allowing torture of Iraqi prisoners and prisoners in Guantanamo, not to mention poor planning in every step of the Iraqi operations since the fall of Baghdad.

Democrats virtually unanimously supported going into AFghanistan after 9-11. No Democratic president would hesitate to after terrorists who pose a real threat, and certainly any known to have attacked us. But invading Iraq for "reasons" now proven as lies (weapons of mass destruction) did nothing to improve our security; in fact it did quite the opposite by making millions more in the Arab world hate America.

Bush has also scrimped on supporting troops through funding for body armor, adequate veterans' benefits for the disabled, and so forth. Disrespecting our troops is hardly the way to boost morale. Moreover, Bush's irresponsible war has sent our national debt soaring; foreign investors hold most of our debt, which is dangerous for our national security. Many foreign financial magazines are now speculating that the US economy is on the verge of collapse.

Democrats have called for more funds to be spent on things like improving airport security and checking cargo at ports, other areas where the Bush administration has been slow to act, and funding was inadequate.

Protecting our national security means more than just who buys the most tanks and planes. It should also be noted that defense contractors donate scandalously huge sums to Bush and the GOP, so their hawkish stance may be colored by the money they're receiving. Cheney's ex-company, Halliburton, which continued to pay him bonuses while he is Vice President, made a fortune off the Iraq war.

What, exactly, do you think the Dems should do that Bush hasn't? Bomb Iran into the stone age? Don't be fooled by the White House crying wolf again about nuclear weapons. Didn't we hear that before, with the fake info on "yellow cake" uranium in Bush's state of the union speech before he invaded Iraq? When he quoted a memo since proved to be a known fake at the time, thanks to Valerie Plame's husband, who told the truth. For his honesty, the White House "outed" his wife's identity as a CIA spy to the media.

[slay]

62. I'd say you're more of a conservative Democrat than a Republican

I've read quite a few of your posts Doc. I've found them to be intelligent, rational, deep, and often enlightening. You are in no way a republican.. at least not in this day and age. I think you bring a valued perspective to the Democratic Party and I for one am glad you post here. :)

My question to you is - How do we convince other "true conservatives" that the modern Democratic Party is the only place their voices even have a chance of being heard? I think conservatives have just as much a place in the Democratic Party as liberals do. As long as a person's political views can be backed up by reason and rational arguments, good people will want to hear what you have to say. I feel bad for the "true conservatives" who have had their party stolen by the PNACers and evangelicals. The Democrats have been demonized by the right for so long that it may take awhile for the message to get out that the Democratic Party is not made up of purely liberals. Hopefully they will find the real Democratic Party warm and welcoming.
Oh yeah, and regardless of the political situation, it's just plain more free and fun here! :evilgrin:

[hfojvt]

63. so why exactly do these smart people

buy the crap? That is the part I do not get. Why are they still Republicans, not only by name, but by vote?

[sendero]

71. Fear..

.... and greed and the need to blame everyone but themselves for their problems.

It's ironic that the party of "personal responsibility" and "self-reliance" spends an inordinate amount of time convincing people that the whole problem is the nickel a month taken out of their paycheck and paid to welfare mothers.

The $100 flushed down a military shithole doesn't bother them at all.

[The Doctor.]

74. Honestly.... they are too trusting.

Those 'Smart' people who are fortunate enough to have been my parents are too embedded in ideological America.

Being raised in the 40's and 50's, they grew to see America as the utopia they were told... and let's face it, for many more people then than now, America WAS a utopia in the fifties. (especially if you're white and upper middle-class.)

Their ingrained belief that America could never be corrupted is nearly unassailable.

Mom is slowly getting it, I've explained the PNAC and Reserve Currency issues, and I know it gave her a small itch.

But they're so damn busy at the yacht club (yes, really... they are retired and loving life, and mom still clips coupons and dad still rebuilds the Fiat once a year.) that I don't think it will set in until their friends are being hauled off.

Now if I can just get them to stop listening to Rush and Fox...

[hfojvt]

88. it seems to me they might be lacking in sympathy

Democrats are about helping the poor and working class. Republicans are more about forcing them to sink or swim rather than allowing them to be dependent on life preservers. Since I am very miserly, to some extent I feel that the poor could clip more coupons, tighten their belts, and grow their own gardens.
Also, a yacht club sounds so upper crust. My parents are retired and busy, but they work elections, volunteer with the Red Cross, and dad is on the housing board as well as the town board. Not that they are not quite well off too. They do a fair amount of travelling, but nothing overseas yet. They were Republicans until about 1986, which was about when I switched as well (at age 24).

[TheModernTerrorist]

90. Republicans and Conservatives

Those two terms used to coincide with each other, as the Republican Party were the ones who have been very adamant on reducing the size of our government, and typically lean more towards a libertarian approach to ailing society's woes... nothing wrong with that (even though I in part disagree, I can still understand and respect the concept). However lately, there is a fissure in the party that is rapidly opening up into a schism of sorts. Philosophically-speaking, there are two current trends within the Republican Party:
1) fically conservative
2) socially conservative

The Fiscal Conservatives fight to reduce the government into a more libertarian state of being, where one would be taxed little and the society is then in turn more responsible for lifting the poor and downtrodden than the government is... this argument does have it's merits.

The Social Conservative aims at preserving tradition, a way of life. In contradiction to the Fiscal Conservative, the Social Conservative sees nothing wrong with an INCREASE in government, as long as it is aimed at protecting those values and traditions that it holds. So, things such as The Patriot Act, Homeland Security, etc. are viewed with respect to their values being protected.

...and that is where there a huge divide is happening.

I am sorry you had to face such a harsh reality like the one you experienced. There ARE Republicans/Conservatives out there that I believe should be heard, but I personally feel that the party's heart has shifted from one definition of conservative to the other, whic I would honestly have no problem with, except for the fact that this country was founded upon a basis of recognizing the differences within us all, hence the various different religions, ethnicities, cultures, etc. SO, for one group, whether they're a majority or just the ones in power, to step in and push THEIR values upon others that don't share the same ideas and philosophies, well, I don't totally agree with that. They're are some of that ilk that DON'T bother me, and they present decent and arguable, though often inaccurate, information when discussing issues. Then there are the "others", that come off as very vicious, rabid, and quite often violent. Just as the liberals are trying to oust the feelings and notion of a weak party, so I feel the Republicans down the live will try to oust their vicious counterparts.
I could really go on and on about this, but I've said enough for now. I'm glad to meet yet another open mind in this great community, and I'd love to debate you sometime.

[TheModernTerrorist]

91. hehehe

also, if you'll notice, not once did I try to sawy one side or the other.... yeah, they used to call me "Mr. Fair & Balanced" until some jerk stole it :-D

[Why Syzygy]

4. this is an ongoing issue

and one that makes sites like dailykos, DU, atrios, media matters, move on, etc. so important.

They don't want dialog. I gave up on that years ago.

When my sister can send out email with a picture of John Kerry juxtaposed to Hussein or OBL.. or whatever it was . and then whine . John Kerry is a "LEFTIE", we have some major misunderstandings here.

I'm from the old school. We talked about these things. Worked them out. Lines were clearly drawn.

No one wanted a devious cheater in the W.H. (Richard Nixon).

These days, it's like 'bring 'em on'. Yeah he lies cheats and steals. And he has a rich base and a religious right wing fanatical base supporting him all the way.

Things didn't used to be this way.

[tsuki]

92. Before 1980, the Republican Party was the party of the Rockefeller

Republicans. They were not the fRight Wing.

[roguevalley]

5. stay here with us. Sit next to me. They have to suffer before they

see the light. When the economy crashes and it will, they will get it.

[KoKo]

6. Well, since you've been here since July...I hope you've come to know and

understand us...and even like us a little. There are many on DU who are "centrists." And there are even LEFTIES like me...who are very conservative fiscally. There are shades and colors to America. But, here we try to fight it out with all kinds of opinions...not always sucessfully...with folks getting banned, etc. if one goes too far and "flames."

But...by and large...it's a nice Forum to be on...because it does operate as a Forum rather than just a "one sided opinion" site.

Welcome...even though you have 1,000 or more posts...

:-)'s

[Lisabtrucking]

7. Well at least your not leaping off the cliff like the rest of them.

Democrat's and Liberals are not perfect, and I like to think of us as being able to admit to our mistakes. I find in the Conservative, Republican party they will shoot themselves before they admit they are WRONG.
Welcome to some real discussion.

[Generator]

8. One word that sums up their behaviour is

Cult.

Seymour Hersch used it and I think it fits. Blind alligence to a leader based not on any rational thinking but only on emotion, religion, pressure, fear, the other cult members....

It's not normal. When you stop questioning..you are following without thought..isn't that a cult like mindset?

[Disturbed]

11. The Bush Junta are not Conservatives.

They are Fascists. Moderate Republicans have been pushed aside in the Bush Junta. Fascists and Fundies now rule what was once the Republican Party.

[Cleita]

9. I am seeing those of us who can't sanction what the

Republican Party stands for any more, as true patriotic Americans. The Bush Republican Americans are in truth fascists and stand for everything our Constitution doesn't.

IMHO, I think they are treasonous and should be charged as such.

[tsuki]

93. I have wondered since the SOTU, how Snow has fared. It

took some major courage as a Republican not to stand and clap for Bush when he announced dismantling Social Security one of his prime objectives of his second appointment.

[raggedcompany]

10. Enjoyed reading that thread!

Especially the part where one poster suggests you "Study some of Yossef Bodansky’s writings<.>" Too fucking funny.

[Ladyhawk]

14. Thank you for trying to bridge the gap.

I'm glad you are here, representing real conservatives. I'm sure you and I agree on many issues. I think government should be held accountable for its spending. I believe the government should balance the budget. Apparently, the shub admin disagrees with us. :(

The middle moved, Dr. Eldritch. While I wasn't paying attention, the Republican Party left me. Since you are staying in the Party, I hope you can talk sense into these folks. It sounds like you're having a terrible time with that. :(

[The Doctor.]

16. Terrible? ....no....

I absolutely LOVE verbal conflict.

I've never lost a real debate in my life.

But it is difficult to get through to people for whom it is more important to be right than to be correct.

If you read the thread you'll see that I did try hard to stay on topic but was assailed merely for making the statements I did.
How interesting it was that so many of them felt they had to attack ME instead of my points.

And what a shame that I will not get to continue productive dialogue with those few who would engage in earnest.

I was especially amused by the 'victory dance' they all had when they found out I was a DU poster... as though that was all they needed to prove me wrong.

"Morans"

[Ladyhawk]

37. Good. :) I hate verbal conflict. Someone has to enjoy debating!

I'm glad you do.

[FreedomAngel82]

45. I've had that happen as well

with debating with "republicans." They personally attacked me instead of the issues and points I was making. Not all of them, mind you, but the far far gone one's did. And it hurt to be made fun of and called anti/un American. :cry:

[ailsagirl]

84. Doc, can I ask you a question?

I have often heard/read that the Conservatives are extremely angry and, yes, even hateful toward liberals. Is this true? If so, why? Don't they have what they want?

Anger is not an emotion one would want to embrace, I wouldn't think.

But if I'm wrong-- or if my info is faulty-- please, I'd like to know.

Thank you

[Mich Otter]

17. It's Harder to be a Democrat

I think it's harder to be a Democrat because taking a Liberal stance means being tolerant and respectful of people whose views you don't agree with. Issues such as religion, government regulations, military actions, sexuality, racism, as well as many more, are issues that are going to stimulate many points of view; many of which you and I will never agree upon.
It is also harder to be a Democrat because it is tough for people to believe that is best if they make some sacrifices for the greater good of others; such as paying more in taxes to pay for helping to support the homeless.
Keep asking the good questions, keep searching for what you feel is the truth.

[Spazito]

20. Well said!

*

[CoffeeCat]

18. BushCo mirrors the dynamics of a dysfunctional family...

It seems that the more "dysfunctional" the Republican policies become, the more loyal some Republicans get.

My belief is that the Republican party has become like a dysfunctional family. The party is headed by an out-of-control, sociopath and dry alcoholic, who is still behaving like a reckless addict. His "base"--in order to justify their continued loyalty--must remain firmly in denial.

That's why the base won't and can't dialog. The more dysfunctional and sick the addict becomes, the more denial is required--until the victims of the addict are brainwashed by their own rationalizations.

Just like in a dysfunctional/abusive/alcoholic family--the family members thrive on what little crumbs are thrown to them, ("He said he would ban gay marriage!", "He said he loves Jesus and that he prays!", "He said he would stop the baby killin!". They turn a blind eye to his lies, murdering of innocents, illegal war, disdain of the poor and penchant for millionaires--because they desperately need to believe that the emperor they've worshiped is wearing clothes.

Unfortunately, the sicker * grows, the more entrenched his following will become.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. Coincidentally, I first heard about family therapy during the Reagan years

and one of my first thoughts was, "This describes our country today."

No one has treated the dysfunctions, and they've gotten worse. :-(

[The Doctor.]

75. Holy shit that's brilliant!

Can't believe I didn't think of it myself!

Yes indeed, the right has become a vast dysfunctional family.

And the administration are the 'toxic parents'.

Unfortunately, the toxic parents have done a marvelous and typical job of turning the siblings against one-another... That's what they do.

[jojo54]

21. Who the hell was that ?moderator?

or whoever it was responding to you? That person was the biggest asshole of all. BTW you did good!

[The Doctor.]

77. Good? lol - thanks! n/t

[ailsagirl]

22. I don't think it has anything to do with being reasonable

or rational or logical-- IMO, a large percentage of the opposition are coming from someplace other than their brains. Seriously-- I'm not trying to be funny or mean.

Remember PIPA's study that concluded a majority of Bush supporters suffer from "gross cognitive dissonance?"

[Rican1]

23. I know several conservatives like yourself

People who voted Republican their whole life but did not vote for Bush because they know he is a horrible President. That's why I still don't understand how he won.

[ailsagirl]

24. He didn't... they stole it

I honestly think the percentage of true * supporters is somewhere around 30%-- maybe 35%.

No majority.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. I posted on a blog linked from one of the e-mail lists I participate in

and was soon subjected to a rightwing dogpile.

After one of the Republicanites followed me to my private e-mail address to continue haranguing me and telling me that leftists are never logical, and that I hadn't answered one of his charges (how do you begin answering a string of dittospew that contains misinformation in nearly every sentence?), I wrote a response in which I actually answered two of his questions but warned him that his address was going into my spam filter. (One of the questions I answered was about why Democrats consider Bush a liar.)

He then ran whining back to the blog about how I was a typical leftist who ran away from controversy and that I had called him a liar. In the original version of his message, he posted my personal information and evidently, some personal insults based on googling my real name. The blog owner made him remove that version of the post (I never saw it, just read the owner's message about it). After answering his accusations, I announced that I was through and had more important things to do.

The little whiner posted another whiny message about how cowardly and illogical leftists are, and the last time I looked, this was followed by another right winger, telling the whiner that it was no use arguing with leftists because, according to her, we argue emotionally instead of logically, never use facts, and are prone to insults.

I was sorely tempted to write a final message, "Kiddies, that last post is a textbook example of projection," but I thought, "What's the use?"

[Rebellious Republican]

27. I understand your frustration, I am a FORMER republican.

The republican party has been taken over by fascist neocons, I gave up trying work from within the party several years ago.

Either march lock step or get out, guess what, I got out. You can not use reason or present facts to these arrogant bastards.

They have turned their backs on this country, they are all trying to grab as much money for themselves as they can before they run this country into insolvency.

You know, "government like a business"!

The Neoconservative motto, "I got mine, screw you"!

:mad:

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberty Belle]

59. People thought Hitler was a nice guy, too.

The rank and file Republicans are, in many cases, decent at heart. But they are misguided into a messianic following of a very, very dangerous leader surrounded by equally dangerous advisors.

Judge them not by their words, but by their actions.

[deadparrot]

29. Glad to have you here, Dr_eldritch!

Left or right, I think we all have a tendency to get out of hand with our opinions sometimes. The polarization is astounding, and so intense that I've come close to losing friends.

I think I need to be more like you. :)

[Skittles]

30. REPUBLICANS are a travesty to America

nt

[The Minus World]

31. Integrity, Always Changing

It's understandable that you prefer to adhere to your core conservative values. Unfortunately, integrity, as defined by the new Republican movement, involves re-molding your opinion to integrate with party orders from on high - righteous indignation against petty theft, but a blind eye towards murder.

I read a little bit of your back-and-forth.

Some actually insisted that they were engaging in a debate with you - you know, one in which facts are cited and conclusions are drawn, rather than re-enforcing an already cemented political ideology.

That is certainly laughable; most of the focus was on desultory statements which may have been red flags to your political opposition, including your Rent-a-Center experience, observations about SUV drivers, and assertion that moderate conservative individuals may still march straight ahead while the party pulls the steering wheel hard to the right.

Apparently, to "eviscerate" one's argument, all one needs to do is mask widely-reported facts as "DNC talking points", create a mist of false allegations, and cite right-wing sources as though they were somehow free of the political polarization assumed of "leftist" sources.

That being said - and, also knowing that you're a moderate Republican - this adventure is simply another bit of proof that rational minds, regardless of political bent, do not silence those who disagree. Rather, they take the opportunity to learn from a diverse pool of views.

Diversity of opinion is something that you do not see in modern "conservative" discourse, (save for the differences between the self-deluded "pocketbook" conservatives, the war-hawks, and the aspiring plutocrats of this nation) and - just between you and me - this will be the death of their ideological grip on the Republican party.

[The Doctor.]

82. Very insightful...

It has always been one of my myriad of goals to use debate to learn from others.
(Ok, I'll admit it... to get others to do the footwork for my lazy ass.)

I'll admit, I did not know that taxes were cut in 1964, so I genuinely thanked the poster for the info... and of course his response was to gloat.

But he couldn't deal with me otherwise. (IMHO)

This is a remarkable indication of the trend you suggest.

I too believe that the illusion will shatter... it's just a matter of time and typing.

[JohnnyCougar]

32. I, along with my best friend, used to be republicans.

I used to listen to Limbaugh with my dad, and I actually campaigned for Republican candidates when I was in high school. I voted for McCain in the 2000 primaries.

When I got to college and broke away from the extreme right-wing propaganda, I became more independent, but still considered myself a moderate Republican. I realized what was happening pretty much a week after Bush took office, though, and I didn't like it. That Taiwan scuffle set the tone as to how America was going to behave, and about two months into the Bush presidency, I was already starting to despise him.

I didn't even support him after 9/11. The way Bush used propaganda to stir up blind hatred after 9/11 turned me off completely. I was one of the 10%ers, I guess. A lot of my friends were revolted that I hated him then. Now they see what I was talking about.

I still consider myself a small government moderate democrat. On those political attitude tests, I score somewhere in between libertarian and liberal. That is why I like Dean so much. Dean, I feel, will bring the Democratic party to a more left-libertarian angle, which is a party I could really get behind. I believe there are alot of others out there like me as well.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AZCat]

60. Believe it or not...

We don't really care to hear your opinion. Sure, it may be a valid one, but we are deluged every day by voices like yours repeating a message that most of us do not agree with.

A lot of us come here to avoid exactly this. If you want to attempt to convert Democrats there are places on the web, but this is not one of them. The rules are pretty clear about this:
We ban conservative disruptors who are opposed to the broad goals of this website. If you think overall that George W. Bush is doing a swell job, or if you wish to see Republicans win, or if you are generally supportive of conservative ideals, please do not register to post, as you will likely be banned.
</snip>

This is a private web site and the administrators are within their rights to limit discussion however they please. If you cannot stay within the boundaries laid out by them then you won't find it a hospitable place, regardless of any personal experience that you feel will "raise the scales" from the eyes of any of us.

[Spiffarino]

61. Some Dems

But there are plenty who are on board regarding national defense. To me, that misses the larger point.

Bush's military adventurism does nothing to fix the problem of world terrorism; if anything, it's making it far worse. And I'm not alluding to an appeasement solution. They simply are trying to win a war on the cheap.

9/11 represented a unique opportunity for Democrats and Republicans to come together to work on a strategy that would all but erase terrorism from the face of the Earth. Everyone was on-board. Instead of being a real leader, Bush listened to his partisans and looked for ways to destroy the opposition. To me, it was and is the single greatest failure of any president at any time in our nation's history.

I wasn't happy that Clinton lied about a blowjob. I thought it was enormously stupid. But it was a personal shortcoming. When it came to his job as president he did remarkably well.

How can anyone honestly look at the past four years and say that Bush is even doing a half-assed job?

Abortion? Abortions are up since Clinton...and the Republicans control EVERYTHING!

National debt? Up.

Military? Stretched thin and now having problems with recruiting and retention.

Moral high-ground? A male hooker gets a press pass to lob softballs to help Bush get out of answering tough questions.

You get the picture.

PS - sorry I accused you of listening to Rush in an earlier post. In hindsight, you strike me as a bit more of a thinker than the average disruptor. If you're really just looking for an honest debate and not trying to piss people off, you'll probably do OK.

[eridani]

65. You forgot the Millenium plots

The Clinton admin broke up a series of planned attacks far more complex than 9-11.

[ProfessorGAC]

69. Unbrilliant!

So, you're disillusioned because Clinton lied, but are ok with the lies of the current administration.

Logic & consistency are not among your strengths, are they?
The Professor

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v3.0
==================



This week is our first quarter 2005 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend almost entirely
on donations from our members to cover our costs. Thank you so much for
your support.

[madfloridian]

34. Closeminded is a better word.

If your mind is closed, then the truth can not filter through. I have some very bright family members with masters and doctorates who have closed their minds.

They are far from ignorant, but they are absolutely closeminded to anything. They are brainwashed.

It has been at at least a decade the right wing has been doing this. That as effectively closed many minds to any other way of thinking.

Until I got active on the internet community after I retired from teaching, I was well on my way as well....it is just how it is in some areas here unless you are internet based.

Good to see you back. You have not posted here in a while, have you?

[Pushed To The Left]

35. 2005 politics should have these 2 sides:

The hardcore radical right, and those who oppose the hardcore radical right. Moderates and liberals need to band together to defeat this very dangerous common enemy! The hardcore right is in power of all branches of government now, so it's crucial for those of us who oppose them to form an alliance to bring them down!

[oasis]

36. We have plenty to do over here Dr_eldritch, so roll up your sleeves and

lets get at it.

[libodem]

38. I've been thinking that some moderate Republicans

might be seeking like-mindedness. It feels bad to think you are out there alone in your values and beliefs. I think validation is priceless. I'm glad you came looking for it here. You don' sound like a hard-ass Republican. I talked to an Independent the other day and he is feeling very disenfranchised with the current administration.

[LittleClarkie]

78. Doc should read Charlie Reese

Now there is a like-minded guy, though he might be more federalist than conservative.

[recovering democrat]

39. Glad you are trying

Like others have posted here, I am another who did not leave the Republican party; it left me.

In my case, I woke up and found the Republican party had been taken over by the modern version of the "dixie-crats" who when they were Democrats caused my original conversion to the Republican party!

Everything that "my" Republican party used to stand for is gone, leaving only the ignorance and intolerance of political thugs in its place. I hope you keep trying, and I hope you succeed in turning it around. But for now, there is no REALITY in the Republican community.

[paineinthearse]

40. Some of my best frinds are moderate republicans

:grouphug:

[The Doctor.]

83. And some of my best friends are pains in the ass... nt

:toast:

[Toucano]

41. It's Bush-bots that are ruining the country.

It isn't so much the conservatives v. the liberals.

Whatever position one stakes out, if that position is based on REASON and FACT, it contributes to the dialogue. Even if one reaches a conclusion I disagree with, I can respect them if they used the process.

Bush-bots, on the other hand, have no process. Everything that issues from their master's orifice is sweet, righteous, and true. Lies pile on top of lies, on top of more lies. When lies are the foundation for policy, the policy is defective.

In a local small town paper, I've read letter from Bush-bots advocating for private accounts to keep social security afloat, and attacking the AARP as a "well-known" liberal organization that's only in if "for the money." When I see poor people defending the rich, I know they're Bush-bots.

But it will be their undoing at some point. Like a pyramid scheme, it will work and look great for a little while. But one day, it will collapse.

[kk897]

48. I respect anyone who can debate rather than fight in the

current polarized state of public discourse. My hat's off to ya.

It used to be that Republicans and Democrats (and probably most other parties) might have different opinions about how government should do things. Sure, there were smoke-filled rooms, power brokers, ideologues, etc., but by and large it seemed that for most people, political differences were just that--political differences.

Now, it seems, political differences represent the opportunity to demonstrate moral superiority. It's almost as if the politics are irrelevant.

[sandnsea]

49. lol, oh MrNiceGuy

I've run across him before. I used to call him Mr.FactGuy because his facts were almost never right.

They have their site, they don't think you're genuine in wanting to contribute to their board and are there to disrupt. I don't blame them.

I've always held the belief that calm and nice doesn't make right either. People who think that they can be manipulative assholes if they don't raise their voice are more annoying than an honest debate at elevated decibles.

[Liberty Belle]

50. Welcome to DU! You're not the only conservative become

disillusioned or even frightened by the Bush administration and the blind zealotry of so many of his adherents.

There are very good reasons for people of all political stripes to be concerned. The neoconservatives in power are nothing like ordinary conservatives of the past. I am a journalist. I deal in facts, not hype. If you want the truth on any political issue, send me a private message and I'll be happy to provide links, so you can judge for yourself. I also publish a newsletter to keep the public aware of stories not covered adequately (or at all) by the corporate-owned media in America.


Here are two articles by or about prominent conservatives who are speaking out against this Adminsitration. You may want to share these with others who are still on the fence, if they are willing to listen.

First,this:

A CONSERVATIVE RADIO HOST & EX-MORAL MAJORITY LEADER DENOUNCES RELIGIOUS RIGHT’S EFFORTS TO DESTROY FREEDOM

Chuck Baldwin, a Baptist pastor and past executive director of Florida’s Moral Majority who once rallied his parishioners to build a monument to aborted babies, makes this startling confession: “No one can honestly question my commitment to pro-life, pro-family conservative causes. That being said, the Religious Right, as it now exists, scares me.”

The Religious Right has become a propaganda machine for George W. Bush and the Republican Party, Baldwin observes, “The Religious Right is actively assisting those who would destroy our freedoms.”

Baldwin faults religious leaders for failing to resist passage of the Patriot Act, creation of the Homeland Security department, and appointment of a National Intelligence Director. “Neither did the Religious Right offer even a whimper of protest as President Bush and Republicans in Congress created a first-ever national ID card in the new intelligence bill, which eerily has more in common with early Twentieth Century German and Russian intelligence institutions than anything envisioned by America’s Founding Fathers.”

Further, he recognizes the danger of wedding Church and State while demonizing opposing political interests. He warns that the Christian Right views the war in Iraq as a holy crusade and Bush as a religious leader. “America is fast taking on the shape of the old Holy Roman Empire and President Bush is quickly morphing into a modern day Caesar,” he says, then speculates on whether America is heading for a modern-day religious inquisition led by the Religious Right.

“I used to believe that liberals were paranoid for being fearful of conservative Christians gaining political power,” concludes the fundamentalist leader, who is also a card-carrying member of the National Rifle Association. “Now, I share their trepidation.”

Read the full text of this astounding story, first published in The
Covenant News, at:
http://dailykos.com/story/2004/12/18/4283/8852


Next, excerpts from an article published this week in American Conservative Magazine:

Hunger for Dictatorship

War to export democracy may wreck our own.


by Scott McConnell
>
>
Students of history inevitably think in terms of
periods: the New Deal,McCarthyism, "the Sixties" (1964-1973), the NEP, the purge trials-all have their dates. Weimar, whose cultural excesses made effective propaganda for the Nazis, now seems like the antechamber to Nazism,though surely no Weimar figures perceived their time that way as they were living it. We may pretend to know what lies ahead, feigning certainty to score polemical points, but we never do.

Ø Nonetheless, there are foreshadowings well worth
noting. The last weeks of 2004 saw several explicit warnings from the antiwar Right about the coming of an American fascism. Paul Craig Roberts in these pages wrote of the "brownshirting" of American conservatism-a word that might not have surprised had it come from Michael Moore or Michael Lerner. But from a Hoover Institution senior fellow, former assistant secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration, and one-time Wall Street Journal editor, it was striking.
Ø
Ø Several weeks later, Justin Raimondo, editor of the
popular Antiwar.com website, wrote a column headlined, "Today's Conservatives are Fascists." Pointing to the justification of torture by conservative legal theorists, widespread support for a militaristic foreign policy, and a retrospective backing of Japanese internment during World War II, Raimondo raised the prospect of "fascism with a democratic face."
>

<snip>
...The world knows that all manner of traditional
rights associated with freedom are threatened in our own country. ... The essential element of a
democratic society-trust-has been weakened, as
secrecy, mendacity and intimidation have become the hallmarks of this administration. ... .
>
> <snip>
The invasion of Iraq has put the possibility of the
end to American democracy on the table and has empowered groups on the Right that would acquiesce to and in some cases welcome the suppression of core American freedoms. That would be the titanic irony of course, the mother of them all-that a war initiated under the pretense of spreading democracy would
lead to its destruction in one of its very
birthplaces. But as historians know, history is full of ironies.

February 14, 2005 Issue

http://www.amconmag.com/2005_02_14/article.html

[magellan]

64. Sorry you were banned, Doc

My experience with rightwing political forums is the inhabitants generally don't engage in political discourse as a learning process, but as a means of reinforcing their own tenuous beliefs. Facts mean nothing to them; they are intentionally and constantly reinventing "the truth" to match today's reality, and woe to anyone who tries to show them they've got the plot wrong.

Banning or otherwise dismissing those whose only offense is to offer a legitimate (i.e. fact-based) alternate viewpoint is a losing way of dealing with diversity. It's un-American. And more often than not these days it's a distinctly Republican trait. They seem to expect we should all be of one voice...but they never stop to consider that's the antithesis to democracy.

Of course, they're taking their cue from BushCo; the neocons have been tone deaf to debate from the start. "You're either with us or against us"...blah blah blah. Never thought I'd see the day in America where people who prefer facts to spin are considered the enemy.

I admire your willingness to keep trying to get through to the misled on the right. Please don't give up.

[lojasmo]

66. I was reprimanded by local leaders in the Democratic party for posting

here on DU. Top that!

[ProfessorGAC]

68. Huh?

What was the motivation behind that? That doesn't make any sense to me, at all.
The Professor

[lojasmo]

72. I posted about some shenanigans pulled by my county chair....

During the primaries. Some partisan bullshit that shouldn't have taken place.

It didn't go over very well.

[ProfessorGAC]

67. Anyone Who Throws Out The "Commie" Epithet. . .

. . .is neither a conservative or a good American. They are pro-fascist, whether they know it or not. They don't believe in democracy. They don't believe in free speech. They don't believe in the founding principles of this country.

If you get called a "commie" by one of these losers, wear it as a badge of honor.
The Professor

[LittleClarkie]

76. Thank you, I will

'cause I did.

Get called a Commie, that is.

The guy I talked to thought the Dems should just go to North Korea or something. When I asked if he wanted a one party system, he said no. He'd accept the Repubs as the Left Wing party, and some other party as the Right Wing. What would the country look like then, I wonder.

[BikeWriter]

70. As a male MAD member, I'll add they should go join the Marines...

...and stand up for their convictions. :)

[Roland99]

73. That pretty much sums up the sheep mentality

It's what I ran into at a local news station's message board so I stopped going there. It wasn't viewed by many people anyway so I wasn't making any difference.

[RPM]

79. you hit the nail on the head

"Most denizens of conservative sites are Ignorant.
Most denizens of liberal sites are receptive."

yes - like a parachute, a mind works best when open.

Liberals, for our faults, are more likely to listen to you than a reactionary, indoctrinated, church-going, mid-level manager who is a capitalist in drag lemming that makes up the right.

[The Doctor.]

85. Now this is poetry....

"Liberals, for our faults, are more likely to listen to you than a reactionary, indoctrinated, church-going, mid-level manager who is a capitalist in drag lemming that makes up the right."

:)

[greenbriar]

80. thats how they are

because that is how their heros are.

hannity
rush
oliely
savage


BUSH

[progressivebydesign]

81. I hear ya.. I made the mistake of mentioning global warming to repub today

It was a family member of my husbands. Oh my, her voice got very curt... Oops!

I do agree with you... there is little reason on that side, or reasoning, actually. I think it's cool that you are obviously open enough to exist peacefully on both sides of the debate venues for so long, before you got slightly reprimanded from the conservatives.

[The Doctor.]

86. Sorry to be a pain in the ass...

But I was NOT reprimanded by 'conservatives', I was reprimanded by "Neo-conservative wannabes".

Unless they would wish to debate on substance...

(Oh yeah... I got into a Global Warming debate there too. http://www.rightnation.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=67421&pid=682838291&mode=threaded&show=&st=40&#entry682838291)

Holy shit - I have to repost!

I just saw something!

I got the best badge ever!

[dyermaker]

87. Boards that poke fun of the DU

I have a neocon friend I debate over email. He is a member of at least one board who's members regularly post threads from here. They call it something like, 'Pick you favorite DU post' and then they all poke fun at them.

Guess they don't have much else to do with their time. I am used to boards that welcome both sides but I had to join the DU anyway.

[The Doctor.]

89. Impressive that you found this post....

Please, If you have any questions, just ask.

Welcome to DU.