I am new but I have a question

[oldfogey]

for those willing to discuss the topic in a civil manner.

Why are some of you so willing to write off the entire government just because of who the president is right now?

Please no attacks or BS. I am just trying to understand why some of us seem to have given up on this entire country because we are stuck with shrub for the moment.

[piece sine]

1. it takes all kinds

in this crazy world of ours.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

2. its also the entire republican machine...

and the democrats that cow-tow to them that piss us off too.

[chelsea0011]

3. What are you talking about?

It is because of our love for this country that we speak of Bush as a murdering moron.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

5. Please don't attack people based on post count.

It's not only a rule violation, it's also just plain not nice.

[oldfogey]

23. My intention is not to bait anyone.

My views seem to differ somewhat from the majority I've noticed here so far. I am trying to decide whether or not this is a forum I wish to make myself a part of or if I would be better off staying away. I do not wish to stick around if voicing my opinions will only start problems. I can find somewhere else if I think that is the case.

[puddycat]

45. my experience is that a wide-range of views are exchanged here

Some of my own views are really left (i.e. I favor a socialistic modified form of capitalism, I think Bush is a war criminal, the Iraq war is one big war crime), but I also support the 2nd amendment (which to my surprise I'm finding more and more people on the left do, so I'm not so alone anymore), and although I'm sure some people don't like me for some of my views, I have been treated well here, despite having a somewhat argumentative personality (lol).

[oldfogey]

83. I agree

with the opinions you stated although how strongly may differ.

"but I also support the 2nd amendment"
I figured getting into this would only cause me problems here but I am not sure I care what others here think of me so I will admit to agreeing with this as well. I will get into the topic if I stick around. I have seen there is a forum dedicated to it.

[Ironpost]

166. sometime the argumemt brings out the truth.

[WilliamPitt]

89. Perhaps you shouldn't flout your post count

You were a newbie once, too.

[hiley]

6. who has given up ?

Come on what do you think we have and are fighting for ?
The entire country, okay.
I would not waste time writting and calling government officials if I did not want to change things.

And by the way we are stuck with Bush way longer than the moment.

After he is gone there will still be damage to fix

[fertilizeonarbusto]

7. I haven't given up on the country or the government as

an institution. But the people running ruining both right now are so powerful and have such a sophisticated understanding of political manipulation that they have succeeded in conflating themselves with the government, political legitimacy and patriotism in the minds of many. So attacking them can seem like attacking the country. Thank you, though for pointing out that distinction-it can't be stressed enough.

[Vinca]

8. Let's see, maybe it's because . . .

the Republicans have control of the House and the Republicans have control of the Senate and the Republicans are in the White House, which makes us SOL when it comes to the things we believe in (health care, for example) as opposed to what "they" believe in (voting "ixnay" on environmental controls, for example). Have you got any valid reasons why we should stand on the sidelines as cheerleaders?

[puddycat]

9. its my own love of the Constitution that keeps me going

I love the Constitution. The current government is sick, because they have, to use your words "written off" the Constitution. Its our own corrupt leaders who have forsaken us, our system of governance, and our future. Half of our fellow citizens voted for a mass murderer. They are the ones who have "written off" our country, my friend.

[noamnety]

10. Misunderstanding

"Why are some of you so willing to write off the entire government just because of who the president is right now?"

We're willing to write off the entire administration based not only on who the president is, but also based on all the people who work for him. If we gave the impression somehow that we approved of his appointees, it wasn't intentional.


http://ideamouth.com/appointments_and_disappointments.htm (not updated since the election)

[mzmolly]

11. Who's written off the entire Government?

Had we done so, we would not be here, staying informed.

[NewJeffCT]

112. agreed, I haven't written them all off yet

There are some good folks on Capital Hill... where they are, I have no idea. (just kidding on that last part!)

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cidliz2004]

136. Exactly, that is what is so disheartening

I understand how one dumb ass Bush, with the proper backing that can do all of the actual work - got into office and "appointed" his friends into as many positions as possible. I also understand how Bush is furthering his hold on the Government by using it's power to persuade, cajole, blackmail and threaten people to go along with his plans....I can really understand how THAT happens. What I CANNOT UNDERSTAND is all of the people that voted for this guy! How almost half of the voters in this country thinks that he is an acceptable choice for office makes me worse than sick. I have not gotten over it and I never EVER will.

[jgardner]

148. I couldn't have said it better.

It just makes me so SAD to think that half this country believes the BS he spews. I'm anti-hatred, pro-tolerance, anti-fear, pro-free-choice, and anti-lies. How are any of those things bad???

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

20. Everyone was new here once.

And many people are 'newbies', when compared to other people *cough*. Why do you wonder about his 'true colors'? He didn't wonder about yours, did he?

[CityZen-X]

22. I'm Concerned .....

by the naivete!

[Padraig18]

28. And I'm concerned...

... about folks who seem to need to use the word 'newbie' when they post.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

32. Yes.

Have you ever heard of the rule regarding calling out people based on post count? As a former Moderator, I can assure you that it's against the rules. Just FYI...

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

39. Have it your way.

Just don't bitch in ATA when your posts get deleted.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oldfogey]

40. Let him call me a newbie

all he wants. I am one and it is true. I am not one who normally keeps up on current events as my responsibilities take up most of my time. You may see me as naive but I believe the proper term is uneducated or uninformed. I can tell when I am not wanted, and I am trying to see if staying here is something I will regret. No decision has been made yet.

[Worst Username Ever]

44. Nah

pay no attention to people like that. If you hang out in GD you are going to want to have a pretty thick skin, any dissenting opinion is generally flamed to death. This is definetely a VERY far left website, sometimes views that lean to the moderate are not easily expressed. If that is a factor in your decision, then so be it. Hope we can halp you make an informed choice...

[Padraig18]

46. You *are* welcome.

We have a rule against calling people out based on post counts specifically because some DUers find it neccessary to prove their superiority over others by using the term 'newbie', thereby driving some posters away. DU is a dynamic, progressive community that depends on 'new blood' for its vitality, and i welcome you to it..

:hi:

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

60. Because it *is*, that's why.

If you have a disagreement with the rules, take it up with Skinner.

[CityZen-X]

61. Name The Item...

that I have violated?

[Padraig18]

63. I've done it about 12 times.

What part about calling someone out based on their post count don't you understand? I really can't figure out how much clearer to make it.

:wtf:

[CityZen-X]

66. Can't Wait...

get back to you later, I am on a mission, were pulling the wings off of eagles!

Mir, Paz, Salaam, Shanti, & All The Peaces Together!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

103. We're not allowed to call people "newbie" if it's used to discredit them

It appears that was your intention when you added this line.

"This will show your true colors!"

I think that's what Padraig18 is trying to say.

I like to think of it as the 'benefit of the doubt rule'.

[Ironpost]

167. And we're getting a lot of them... Yes

[CityZen-X]

47. Did I Shoot The Messenger?

Or the message?

[Padraig18]

48. "Newbie"

That's messenger, not message.

[CityZen-X]

54. Oh God...

now you have really blown up me feelings!!

[immoderate]

58. If you believe in progressive democracy...

then you should hang here.

However if you tried to join before the election then, by now, you should probably know what this place is about. What's the question?

Are we pissed at the government? Yes.

Are we loyal Americans? Yes.

So what's the problem?


--IMM

[oldfogey]

68. It seems

some things are different now than they were then. In real life and here, but I have missed a lot here since then. That is all really.

[mordarlar]

93. Read and it will become pretty clear why so much frustration for...

the government at large. I hope you do not leave. There is a lot of information here. Look around and draw your own conclusions. I will warn you though, once you begin to see where a lot of us are coming from you may wish you could go back. We are in pretty deep.

[oldfogey]

34. Results were not my concern.

I cannot think of any. My point was that his term is temporary but I have noticed some seem to think the entire government is against us. Maybe they haven't done anything for us, and certain groups in the govt. may be against us, but I mean those who think the entire govt. is corrupt and no one is on our side anymore.

[Misunderestimator]

53. No... the republican government IS corrupt, and if you don't think that...

I wonder what you DO think. Or are you trying to defend democrats who are being attacked? I'm not sure what you're meaning by implying that we should place all of the blame on Bush and not the rest of them.

[oldfogey]

70. I am trying to understand why some

I have seen feel that this country will be unable to make it through the end of this term. Why they think it will all be gone and we will never be able to put the pieces back together.

[Misunderestimator]

73. There are plenty of reasons why people are afraid of it...

after what they have gotten away with for the past four years, and the latitude they are given and will be given to cut hundreds of social programs, it could take generations to get back what we can lose in this short four years to come.

Why are you so sure that this can't happen? Do you think it's better to ignore all the signs and hope for the best?

[oldfogey]

87. I have not been

watching for the signs. I have not had much time for anything lately. I have some problems I wish not to share here yet which keep me from having much of a life but I am trying to make an effort to keep on top of things again. I have missed much.

[Misunderestimator]

91. Yes, so I'm glad you're here, because you can find all the information

you have missed. Good luck with your problems... hope they aren't insurmountable.

[PA Democrat]

118. There are already many people who will not "make it through to the end of

this term." 1500 American troops and counting, God knows how many innocent Iraqis, and we have yet to calculate the victims of Bush's budget cuts. How many people will die because of cuts to food stamps, Medicaid, environmental protection, heating assistance, veterans benefits, and on and on?

How long will it take to put this country back on stable economic footing? Look how much damage Bush has done in his first term, and now he claims to have a mandate.

There are many financial experts and economists who see the US economy headed for the "perfect storm" with staggering deficits, increasing trade deficits, and the prospect of the large number of baby boomers who will soon start drawing Social Security. We are fast approaching the point of no return, if we ever want to turn this economy around.

Edited for clarity.

[rman]

14. vice president, sec of defense, dep sec of defense, etc etc

not just the president.

[Anakin Skywalker]

15. I don't know whose posts

you've seen, but most here have not "given up on this entire country". And as the others have said, seeing no hope in this malignant administration does not mean we view the entire gov't the same way. The gov't is so much more than just the White House.

[Az]

16. Can't speak for anyone else but I support government

In fact I would much rather see more involvement of government in regulating corporate behaviour and protecting our environment.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

18. Amen

at least it can be accountable in theory, unlike corporations.

[puddycat]

25. unfortunately the current government is fascist in nature

since the essense of fascism is the merging of corporate and government interests, it is near impossible to regulate corporations under such a situation

[idiosyncratic]

38. I agree heartily . . . W.R. Grace company and what they have

done to the citizens of Libby, MT is just one example of many, many, many where government regulation is/was necessary.

And, proposed Wilderness areas that have not been given the protection necessary so now they are no longer roadless and eligible to be designated Wilderness.

I am for more, better government regulation of corporations and evildoers.

It is this Administration I am opposed to, not "the Government."

[Tsiyu]

17. My friend, open your sweet little eyes and ears

The warmongering ( have you seen the pictures of the death and carnage?),

the astronomical deficit ( when Clinton handed * a SURPLUS),

the attacks on gays (while Cheney has a lesbian daughter and a gay prostitute gets a press pass),

the lies about Christ ( causing many to abandon the faith of their childhood),

the decimation of the environment ( seen in ER's all over the country because KIDS CAN'T BREATHE the filthy * air),

the fact that the FDA just let untested drugs like Vioxx and Celebrex make $$$$$$ for people (as it killed others),

the incarceration of protesters BY THE RN Fucking C in New York during their sick, twisted purple bandaid convention,

the fact that our attorney general promoted and allowed the production of torture and porn films at Abu Ghraib ( but here in the States, he's on a mission against porn)

the attacks on veterans, real Christans, and many many good, wonderful people. No all of the above aren't the problem...


The fact that your vote and my vote DID NOT COUNT means OUR CONSTITUTION IS DYING. DEAD. There's no other way to read it, friend. Our government is now just a bunch of fucking bloated White male gluttons, perverts, thieves and murderers who view the American people and their wages and hard work as the government's to steal, misappropriate and funnel to their buddies. If you're not pissed, why not?

[puddycat]

19. very sweeping statement. Can you post links to give examples?

you make a very sweeping statement and have't posted anything to prove that anyone here has "written off" our form of government. Or, did you mean writing off just Bush & Company? Naturally many of us have written them off as vile and immoral etc., because they are.

[Padraig18]

21. Welcome to DU, oldfogey.

:hi:

[oldfogey]

126. Thanks.

I haven't left yet but keeping up with things has been challenging for me today. Hopefully I'll get a chance to do more reading soon.

[lavenderdiva]

24. May I ask you a question, oldfogey?

The jist I get from your question implies that there are some aspects of the Bush govt that you do like.. If I'm correct in that assumption, would you please expand on that? I'd be interested... BTW, Welcome to DU! (Always carry your flame-retardant gear, just in case!) :hi:

[oldfogey]

50. I am not implying that I like them.

I don't. I have just seen occasions when I did not see things as clear cut and I did not feel they deserved such harsh criticisms. They deserved to be questioned, but from time to time I think some have gone too far in their wording.

[Karenina]

64. Dearest Oldfogey,

You are SEVERELY uninformed and undereducated about the issues we face.
I'm an old fartess too, but do my best to keep current. Do you know about pnac.org?

[oldfogey]

71. I have seen it mentioned here

and I will look into it when I have some more time to spare.

[earth mom]

130. I don't think you will get your answer tied up in a tidy little package

...if only it were that easy!

You should be reading and investigating and figuring it out for yourself-no matter how long it takes. Though you came to the right place; DU is an excellent place to get the education you admit you need.

[mcscajun]

153. You won't get to PNAC with that URL

that's a college site.

Here's the link you want: http://www.newamericancentury.org/

[Karenina]

159. OOPS!!! Luddite moment!!!

See Mcscajun's post #153 for the correct link!

[immoderate]

65. "I think some have gone too far in their wording."

Remember, this government called us traitors.

I would hope you would take into account that they are the government, and should be civil. We are miscellaneous bloggers. What expectations are you bringing?

There are 60,000 people here to oppose this government. You're afraid some of them may not be polite enough for you?

--IMM

[oldfogey]

72. I am more concerned

with whether my views will only cause trouble here. People may say whatever they wish. It's called free speech and I exercise it to but I don't want to become a nuisance.

[Misunderestimator]

76. No chance of being a nuisance... I am curious though if you've been

reading political threads here how you could think that anyone here at any time has ever criticized the president too harshly. This president and his entire administration have escaped criticism for too long.

[oldfogey]

90. It is a mixture

of what I have seen in real life and from a variety of sources, perhaps others more than this forum.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dark]

26. Well, I still support our government. I pay taxes, obey the law, etc.

But I don't agree with their policies. That doesn't mean I've written the government off.

I don't respect the government, but neither do I disrespect the government.

[puddycat]

31. when we do that, aren't we really supporting civilization?

I don't support the corrupted part of government, yet I recognize that its necessary to support the structure of our civilization.

[Dark]

59. Well, some on this board would dispute whether we are civilized

after Abu Ghraib. I simply think that most Americans are, and disagreed with Rush comparing it to 'hazing'.

Yes, Rumsfeld should of been fired, but you know that that will not happen.

I believe that we are supporting America, and if you don't like the current administration, well, it's just like a country club.

You can quit, and not have any say or culpability with the group, or work to make it better. I choose to make it better, because I know that we have been given a great opportunity that others have not.

[Bluebear]

27. Are you still with us? We'd love to discuss it with you.

Can you tell us what you mean about some wanting to write off the whole government? Please understand some people make these blanket statements and then watch all the responses without ever again jumping in.

[oldfogey]

57. I am still here and will check in again

but I cannot devote my days to this right now. I know people who have said it and seen things on-line, perhaps not here, I may be mistaken about that, but written by those like us none the less. It is something I find hard to understand.

[immoderate]

29. I haven't given up, but...

This administration has hijacked the constitution. So where is the country?

We must clean house and be American.

--IMM

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Lars39]

35. It's not just that we're stuck with bush at the moment;

his administration has rearranged the CIA, the Pentagon, well, shoot, practically everything they can get their hands on to consolidate their power, with the end goal of not giving up the power. This is not politics as usual, this is 'friendly fascism'.

[UdoKier]

37. We are stuck with Bush and his ilk FOREVER.

As long as they own the hackable electronic voting machines. Educate yourself - you sound like someone who still thinks he's living in a democracy.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

41. If I had given up I'd be in Canada.

It's not our Government we oppose it's this corrupt Administration. The two are not synonymous.

[skids]

43. Trust.

It only goes so far. Some people give more rope than others, but for most, it has run out. How many times do we have to see a politician or big businessman up to no good before it would be silly of us to trust them again? How many times before we realize that it is silly to trust anyone of that stripe, because most of them are corrupt.

Society needs trust to function on all levels, no matter how many checks and balances we try to put into the system. People that violated that trust put us in this position, and the people that have given up can't be blamed.

However, I think that the people that are here are not those that have given up entirely. Those people don't bother with politics. They don't think anything can be fixed, or they don't think that the people around them are worth the personal sacrifice to do so. (I wrestle with the latter every day, because frankly, I don't get much as far as meaningful interaction from other people. I just try to remind myself of that little which I do get.)

No, the people that have given up on this country are the people that just try to "stay out of it." They work their little jobs, drive their little cars, cover their little asses, and hope that when the shit comes tumbling down they have enough warning to step to one side. It used to be people like that moved into the hills and ate tree bark. But nowadays we live in a nation of intellectual and emotional hermits, who, as far as community goes, are really only here physically.

The people here are here because they think there's a chance to fix things.

[Misunderestimator]

49. Right... it's just the president. Do you seriously think it is only him

at fault? Come on...

[oldfogey]

62. No,

but we still have people in positions of influence trying to make things easier for us. I am trying to understand those who think it's all turned bad. Just because shrub is in doesn't mean everyone for us is out. It just means it will be harder for them to succeed.

[Karenina]

67. It is long past the time to look

for a "hero." We must become our own heroes. That means YOU TOO.

[Tsiyu]

69. You need to give some specific examples here

If none of us cared we wouldn't be here. We love our country.

But our government (even Dem officials) is not doing the job the Constitution spelled out.

Tell me what you mean by your question. You can't be vague around here. Spit it out.

And yes, we can be brutal in DU. It's training for dealing with freepers.

[oldfogey]

77. I can't

think of any other way to phrase it. I don't understand it enough to be more clear about it. If you don't understand it I guess you're not the kind of person I am trying to understand better and that's probably a good thing.

[redqueen]

81. Getting nasty already?

That didn't take long.

:eyes:

[oldfogey]

92. I did not mean to sound nasty at all.

It was not meant as an insult.

[Tsiyu]

95. Really....

You want to understand but then you don't want to understand. You want a "civil discussion" but you refuse to discuss anything.

You make a claim about DUers, but have nothing to back it up. You say it's a "good thing" that I'm "not the kind of person you want to understand" and that's not an insult.

Me so confused....NOT

I'm having mushrooms and bell peppers on my pizza. Gotta run get it now. Have a pleasant evening, if that's possible.

[oldfogey]

100. I hope

to understand. If even so that I may help those I know who have become that way to live with what they are going through. Those I know do not deal with it well and I hate seeing people in the state they are. I prefer not to see people in despair and that is why I meant it is better that you don't seem to be like those I have asked about.

[redqueen]

158. I misunderstood your post, then.

"If you don't understand it I guess you're not the kind of person I am trying to understand better and that's probably a good thing."

I read this to mean that it was a good thing you didn't want to understand that member better, rather than it's a good thing they're not the type of person you're talking about.

Mea culpa.

[Tsiyu]

85. Well, since you didn't respond to my first lengthy post

I would submit that you are being quite honest.

Thanks for trying to diminish me as a person.

But I don't get my feelings hurt as easily as you probably do from the looks of some of your "pity poor me" posts. The fact that I asked you to clarify your question indicates my desire to understand you.

I'm a great person. Your loss, friend.

[oldfogey]

94. I don't see how

you feel I attacked you in any way but I apologize for it. I was admitting that I do not understand something well enough to ask the right questions, as it seems I asked the wrong one. I never meant it as an insult.

[Tsiyu]

99. I. Am. So. Sure. n/t

[Misunderestimator]

78. I think it's disingenuous to pretend that it will just be harder for our

allies to succeed. With a republican controlled house, senate and executive branch, there is very little chance in fact. UNLESS, we do our best to expose all of the lies and corruption of the administration, so that in 2006 the public will know enough of the truth to finally kick them out of power. That's what I want... what do YOU want?

[ultraist]

135. And the people in positions who are "trying to make things easier for us"

are some of the Democrats. The Rightwingnuts have taken over our government. They are NOT "trying to make things easier for us."

[geniph]

51. "given up on this entire country"?

Good heavens, the vast majority of us have done no such thing. That's why we're here and fighting. Wherever did you get such an idea?

[CrispyQ]

55. I believe our government has been bought by corporate interests,

and that includes the Dems to a slightly lesser degree. Until we revoke Corporate Personhood, regular citizens who do not have huge portfolios & CEO crony pals do not have a government that is 'of, by & for the people.'

[ChairOne]

56. Cuz a lotta people have fallen for the "they're all crooks" crap....

... and fallen for it *hard*, in the sense that they think it's essentially impossible for life in the political arena to be any more noble.

[Nimrod]

74. I'VE written off the entire government

And I never made any pretense to the contrary. But there's a doomsayer on every forum, and if you ignore me long enough I'll probably go away. :) Hell, two years back I was a member of a Yahoo group and got dubbed Grouchy Smurf.

Anyway, my attitude isn't new. * throws it all into sharp relief, but this has been a government of the money, by the money, and for the money for a very VERY long time. That's just my opinion.

[dand]

75. We are not stuck with just Shrub,

It is the entire Repuke Party in lock step that scares the bejeesus out of me, no indignation at the atrocities, the torture, the looting, the election rigging,the ruining of the economy, empowering our own American Taliban, there hasn't been this kind of corruption since pre World War Two Germany and Japan.

[etherealtruth]

79. I really appreciate your post...

I have been reading the DU for a few years. I appreciate the insight, knowledge and wit of many DU'ers. I was very hesitant to post because there is an element present that is very hostile to those who do not walk in "lock-step" with their views.

My post number is 17 or 18, my I.Q. is not. I walk in "lock-step" with no one.

[Misunderestimator]

82. Welcome to DU.

:hi:

No one requires you to walk in lock-step, just so you know... ;)

[redqueen]

84. Welcome to DU.

:hi:

This site allows for a good amount of disagreement among its members. You have to be ready to defend your views and have thick skin to tolerate gruff comments, but there is certainly no rule that says we have to agree on everything. Say what you think...

Been to I/P? The Gungeon?

You obviously weren't here for the primaries. :)

[etherealtruth]

115. actually...

I lurked in the background. I really felt out of place then, as Dean was my least favorite candidate.

I have a thick skin. I really wanted to commiserate with Oldfogey. I, too, believe something is lost in discourse when it is not civil.

Thank you both for the "welcome".

[oldfogey]

124. I am glad to see that

some here can agree that there is a place for manners in politics no matter how we may feel. We reap what we sow and the attitudes of many are only hurting our nation.

[redqueen]

154. Do you consider your post above 'hostile'? I do.

Your 'thanks' for the 'welcome' sounded distinctly insincere. This is why you have to have thick skin. People say things, and if you're overly sensitive, you'll end up getting your feelings hurt. This isn't the land of sunshine and rainbows. Sometimes tempers flair. It's inevitable.

If you were here for the primaries, then I fail to see how you could say that this place is harsh with people who don't 'march in lockstep'. There were many disagreements, and everyone thought everyone else was wrong... there was no huge group which decided what would be allowed and what wouldn't.

It'd be nice if you'd care to explain how numerous massive disagreements and no one getting banned means we all march in lockstep. If one group dominated all discourse here, and flamed every other group, you'd have a point.

[etherealtruth]

164. I intended NO sarcasm

I genuinely thank those that welcomed me.

I am pleased that there are many who support civility in debate. I realize that MOST who post are very civil, respectful of differences and welcoming. There is no sarcasm or disingenuousness intended . When I am sarcastic it is not veiled. I am rarely hostile when I am, that too, is overt.

Redqueen, it appears my comments have triggered quite the defensive response in you. That's not a judgment, merely an observation.

[Misunderestimator]

170. The quoted "welcome" kind of struck me too...

and not out of defensiveness, but wondering where you got the idea that the members of this site insist on everyone being in "lock step."

[etherealtruth]

174. It's probably too late to respond...

I will try to restate my opinion.

There is an element on the DU that has a very specific opinion of what a "real" democrat is; they are not generally tolerant of departure from that view----I am not talking about defense of * or his administration (They are one group that does cause me to spew venom). I am referring to other liberal opinions. I think diversity of opinion is great, open and honest debate is great and heated response is a byproduct.

I don't think calling people names (personally or generally) accomplishes anything positive. You will not convince anyone to change their opinion or try your way with this.

I posted in support of olgfogey. In truth, I actually wish for more civility in all social discourse, but am not particularly offended by the lack of it.

[Misunderestimator]

175. That's all well and good, but this OP is a judgement on more than

just an element of posters, and it is suspect to support someone who doesn't seem to understand the damage done by the entire administration, and criticizes the ENTIRE GROUP HERE for making too much out of little President Bush's power, since he is only a temporary problem, and after all there are still so many people out there helping us. This is was the OP said, so it seemed odd for you, or anyone, to support that opinion.

To me the OP was a little bomb thrown in the forum to see what mischief (and distraction) could be accomplished.

[etherealtruth]

176. I didn't support his/her opinion...

and I don't think anyone who wrote in support of oldfogey supported the opinion------I supported the right to express that opinion.
When I read Oldfogey carefully I came to believe he/she didn't actually support * (in any aspect) but really wanted to know if there was room at the DU for a more moderate voice. Just reread the posts and still believe that to be true.


As an aside, I do not hold moderate values (generally extremely liberal).

[Misunderestimator]

177. Saying that you "really appreciate" his post threw me, I guess...

that, combined with your comment that you were "afraid" to post here because of an "element" that exists here that forces everyone into lockstep... I certainly didn't see any posts here that would scare anyone from posting an opinion.

I have also read his posts carefully, and I did not see what you saw... what I saw was a resistance to understand why people criticize Bush so much, and why they think there is little hope. Lots of good posts here explaining these things to him... but with little reception.

[etherealtruth]

179. Not trying to be pedantic but ...

I never used the word "afraid", I was hesitant. Hesitant because the subtle nuances of face to face conversation are lost, by necessity, in a forum like this. Case in point, we both interpreted Oldfogeys posts and responses to that post very differently.

The "lockstep" comment was a dramatic statement---------I think it was born of a comment I had read earlier in my visit "all those who didn't support Dean are PIKERS," (paraphrase). In all honesty I don't even know what a piker is, but I assumed it was not positive.

There is an element here that doesn't tolerate dissent and is very vocal about it. There are also very welcoming elements.

The DU is not perfect and admittedly would be very boring if it were.

[lavenderdiva]

119. Welcome to DU etherealtruth!

Glad to have you! :hi:

[etherealtruth]

165. Thank you

[Old Mouse]

168. That can be very true

but I find the majority are very welcoming.

Part of it is we need to remember that this is not an effective means of subtle communication, it is easy to infer and imply meaning and intent that is not what was intended. I think it was particularly bad around the election when passions were running high.

I hope you keep posting and sharing! (It's addictive...)

[redqueen]

80. Who's written off the entire government?

I haven't... seems to me that anyone on this site is committed to working to improve our government, not writing it off.

[TWiley]

86. I guess that I have not seen this group you refer to.

Most of us are here because we want to save our government and the American way of life. Most are not here because we have given up on it.

Welcome to DU. I hope you stay with us for a long time.

[MissB]

88. Some are, some aren't.

If one tries to paint DU with the same broad brush, well....... it probably won't work.

[oldfogey]

96. I am talking about

what I hope is the minority, and perhaps the element is not represented here.

[MissB]

106. The Democratic party does not speak with one voice

And if you are asking the Democratic party to do so, you'll find opposition.

[oldfogey]

107. I am not asking it to.

I just want to be better able to understand and help those I know in real life.

[MissB]

108. Then you should expect to run into opinions on this board that do not mesh

with your point of view.

If that isn't a problem for you, then this is the board for you.

That is what the Democratic party is all about. Big tent and all.

[oldfogey]

111. It's not a problem

but I don't want to be involved if most will only see me as a troublemaker for leaning slightly toward the center.

[MissB]

113. Join in or not

If one thinks this site is full of strictly far left Democrats, then one would be mistaken. There are a wide range of beliefs on this site - political, moral, religious. It is that big tent idea, again.

Just don't post a goodbye post. :hi:

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lavenderdiva]

120. There's room for everyone here...

Your flame-retardant gear will get a work-out occasionally, but I think overall, you will find a LOT of like-minded friends here, who are very supportive. Hang in there!!

[The Doctor.]

133. I'm a Republican who leaned toward the center...

and found myself here...

And then booted back here once again when I expressed moderate or conservative opinions;

http://www.rightnation.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=63698&pid=682769406&mode=threaded&show=&st=100&#entry682769406

(that's not my avatar by the way...)

And then it get's interesting;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3126623

[cally]

97. I haven't given up at all

Like it or not I'm a citizen of a country that has tremendous power in this world. To say I've given up is just wrong. I have to continue to work for change since I've been blessed and cursed with the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.

Stick around. We'll drive you crazy but make you think and act.

[RPM]

98. I am willing to write off the entire government, but not cuz of bush

because:
it forgets who it serves (or perhaps only ignores them)
has become fat and bloated
is frivously pursuing non-issues when major issues get shelved
has no spine to stand and challenge the awful president
is no longer true to the framers' intents.

[Rockerdem]

101. DU is a great site with interesting, open minded people.

There are some excitable ones, but in the main, the vast majority are good folks. Most believe in our basic form of government, but with a few tweaks. Thats why we are liberals.

[Skittles]

102. BECAUSE THESE NEOCON BASTARDS STEAL ELECTIONS

they are DISGUSTING

[Technowitch]

104. Because it's not just Shrub

It's the SCOTUS, the House, and the Senate. The Repugs own it ALL. And they're supported by a compliant right-wing media. Bought and paid for by robber barons.

[Darranar]

105. The problem is a lot greater than our current "president." n/t

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

109. SImplistic. It's not the President, it's the Cabal that surrounds and

includes dimson.

No one here has given up on the Country. Quite the opposite.

[independentchristian]

110. I write the President off

He's nothing but a tool, a figurehead, he's not making one decision or proposing one program.

They just push him out front because he's "non-threatening" to most americans who feel sorry for him although they confuse it with "affection for" him. I said this months ago, then I heard Justin Frank on the Majority Report also say the exact same thing, that people sense a certain "fragility" in Bush, and it makes them not like to see him attacked.

The GOP is clever, and that's why he's out front.

The real power is behind the scenes, and they are making the decisions that are running the country into the ground and a lot of people who support Bush don't support his administration's policies, but they support "him," because of "him," and the cons have put "him" out front specifically because of tha fact.

So, I repeat, it's not about "this President," because he's not in charge, and I understand that, do you?

[goodhue]

114. I support government.

Its shrub and allies that are writing off government.

[ultraist]

134. Exactly! It's Bush and his cronies that are writing off the government

Not us. I find it curious that the OP makes the claim that 'many here are the ones writing off the government.'

Most of us here are more involved than the average person. We are not apathetic (ie writing our country or gov off). We are OUTRAGED by the corruption of the Right Wingnut party.

[RubyCat]

121. I don't hate America. I hate b*.

Bush supporters have a knack for claiming the country for themselves. "Why do you hate America," they ask, "if you don't like it, get the hell out!" I'm afraid it's not their country to kick people out of.

Did you ever hear Democrats accusing Republicans of being unpatriotic during their eight-years of attacking Bill Clinton?

When you write "Why are some of you so willing to write off the entire government just because of who the president is right now?" that's just a clever, more disguised way of asking the same question.

[welshTerrier2]

122. oh where to begin ...

first, let me say that i have not given up on the "ideals" of our government nor on what the "entire country" could be ... but we have failed miserably to realize the promise this country once had ...

why do i say this?

first, we have failed to respect our own democratic institutions ... voters are neither participating in the political process nor are they voting ... what clearer signal could there be that something is very, very wrong??? and some of the blame rests with our country's failure to instill a sense of citizen participation in every citizen ... too many think democracy "just happens" ... the reality is that "shit happens"; democracy takes work ...

second, it costs like a bizillion dollars to run for office ... that's just wrong ... we shouldn't be a government that only the wealthy and those who suck up to the wealthy can participate in ...

third, look at how redistricting has been abused ... it's been done by both parties ... it is done for the political advantage of the party in power ... it should be done with the utmost respect for democracy ...

fourth, we allow lobbyists to do whatever they need to do to win the favors of our elected officials ... what we have now is nothing less than legalized bribery of government officials ... and that coupled with the high cost of campaigning has resulted in the selling of our government to the highest bidder ... government policies are no longer designed for the maximum benefit of the American people; they are designed to provide the maximum benefit to those who can afford access ...

fifth, our elected officials come from a very narrow demographic segment of our population ... they are primarily white men; many are lawyers or business executives ... this lack of diversity in both demogaphic background and academic training has created a less representative government ...

sixth, we seem to be in a pattern of playing policeman to the world ... we seem not to understand that all people would be better served, both domestically and internationally, if the U.S. joined the community of nations rather than acting like an arrogant superpower ...

seventh, we have allowed far too much concentration of wealth and power in the hands of a privileged few ... this, coupled with a very centralized media driven primarily by profit motive, has greatly weakened the promise of America ...

eighth, we have allowed a system where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer ... we have children going without healthcare; we have families living on the street; we have schools that are failing; we have veterans paying for their own healthcare after being wounded in combat; we have millions of people out of work; we have millions of people who have given up hoping that things will get better ... and while all this is going on, CEO salaries are allowed to rise hundreds of times the average worker's salary; the tax code has all kinds of perks for the wealthy; and in the end, there really are two Americas ...

so, it is not just the bush madness that alienates me, and many others, from our government and our country ... it's not that we don't have hope for the ideals embodied in our Constitution ... many still do ... but we have failed miserably living up to those ideals ... our citizens are not adequately informed ... they are not adequately invested ... money plays far too great a role ... our government officials lack diversity both demographically and by training and inclination ... and we have never learned a proper moral code for living in a diverse country and a diverse world ...

other than all that, everything's fine ...

[CrispyQ]

150. Very well said, welshTerrier2!!

If you don't mind, I would like to send this to my mother who thinks that I hate America because I don't like boosh.

What you've stated shows that the problem isn't simply with one party, but with the entire system. Until we stop fighting & pointing fingers at the other party, the basic flaws of the entire system will never get fixed and those in power will remain there. Unfortunately, boosh is the perfect president to keep people's attention diverted from the real & serious issues of our system. He has divided us like we haven't been in decades & that division keeps us at each others throats.

Great post!!

[welshTerrier2]

160. the right message

too often, those of us who are extremely critical of the failings of our government and our country are seen as anti-American or not respecting American institutions ...

we, ourselves, are partly to blame for this perspective ...

we should be as critical as we possibly can be in pointing out where America has failed to fulfill its great possibilities ... but it's critical that we also clearly express our belief in the "ideals" of America ...

I see those of us who demand better from our country as true patriots ... we are fighting for the "ideals" envisioned by our founding fathers and embodied in our Constitution ... those who prefer to wave the flag and proudly announce how great America is when it turns its back on minorities, when it caters only to the super-wealthy and when it shows outright disdain for democracy are the ones most deserving of criticism ...

idealism has been successfully sold by the right as political naivete ... don't let those bastards put you in that little box ... we are champions for freedom and for the promise that this country could be ...

[WarNoMore]

162. I hope you don't mind,

I made a copy of your post. That nails it on the head.

[welshTerrier2]

163. appreciate that, WarNoMore !!

it's always nice to hear that someone actually agrees with me ...

[libodem]

173. I really like your summation

I wish I had a printer.

[MichiganVote]

123. Isn't the government that has left the people as personified by Bush & Co?

[notadmblnd]

125. I can assure you, Nobody here has given up.

This place would not exist if gave up. I can't speak for anyone else here but I'm fighting this admin to save my family from economic enslavement.

This is what is happening in this country, killing SS, higher expenses for health care, jobs being shipped offshore and the lowering of the middle class standard of living while people drown in debt to maintain what they have.

No, dear sir, this is a place where we fight. I've seen the ideas and the exchanges on this forum make a difference.

[foo_bar]

129. it's mostly a place where we fight each other

Not that we aren't fighting the good fight as individuals, but we chafe on anyone who challenges a cherished core belief.

Cherished core beliefs:

1) I'm right about everything.
2) It's not my fault.

The dadgum Internet's no different from mobs in oldfogey's day, they just couldn't all fit in a barn.

[rockymountaindem]

127. I disagree with the current administration.

This has not diminished my admiration for the ideals upon which the US was founded, nor for the majority of the people who did not vote for Bush (Kerry voters and non-voters). Nor have I lost faith in all Bush voters, some of whom are my good friends and admirable citizens, though we disagree on politics.

[solinvictus]

128. Several reasons...

Because the last election saw an unprecedented triumph of corporate money in the American electoral process. As we speak, both houses of the legislature are considering laws that benefit their corporate paymasters at the expense of the American people. We've reached a state where politicians are bought and are no longer beholden to the will of their constituents.

[No Exit]

131. When ONE PARTY controls ALL THREE BRANCHES of the

government, it's time to write off the government. In this situation, there are NO CHECKS AND BALANCES. Remember those? We're supposed to have them!

We are helpless without checks and balances. That's not only reason to "write off" the government, that's reason to take it to the people themselves.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

132. Because the rule of law means nothing to this group and without the rule

of law we are in a foreign country.

This regards laws prohibiting propaganda, the Geneva convention, the first amendment, the 5 th and 6th amendments just to name a few.

In addition, there were rules concerning cabinet members ability to leave government and go into lobbying, and Bush reversed them

Add to that that deliberate lies were used to start a war that will become the most expensive war in humankind.

What's left?

[sandnsea]

137. Ronald Reagan

And before that the Republicans who called FDR a communist. And before that the Gilded Age. We've been fighting these rat bastard corporatists forever and the American people just keep bending over, again and again and again. Well this time we're dragging the whole world into it. With things like the environment and peak oil, it's getting to a point of no return. I just don't understand how history can repeat itself so many times and this country can continue to be blind to its own failings. I don't see it as just Bush at all, I see a significant portion of this country that's just as greedy and hateful and stupid as any group of people in the history of the world.

[PowerToThePeople]

138. I agree. No one here has given up.

That is why we are here. There are many differing belief systems, from far left to moderate. Heck even some republicans (though they get banned from repub boards :smile:) I myself an an anti-capitalist, anti corporate/fascist. But I do love that you have freedom to talk and try to make positive changes in this country as a citizen. A lot of people think that the type of government is the same as the type of economic system of a country, but that is how we were all brought up (propaganda). So, though I speak negatively about USAs rampant capitalism and how it is destroying the world, I do not speak out against our form of government as a whole. (I am assuming you may have been talking of the "communism" threads)

Oh yea, and * and his cabal are all criminals of the world and should all rot in a musty 5' jail cell for the rest of their natural lives..

[Bridget Burke]

139. Please let us know some of your opinions--not just about DU.

About your own beliefs.

Most of us have not given up on the government. The structure as set up by the Constitution is strong. We're concerned about the president that was installed in 2000. The one who let the country be attacked on 9/11. Who has started two wars since then & is planning more. Who has damaged our economy, the environment & education.

What's good about the rest of the Republicans? And too many Democrats either fail to fight--or are silenced--by the bought media or more final methods.

If you disagree with any of this, fine! Just get specific.

[flaminbats]

140. who me?

I haven't written my government off, it has written me off! when our government allows discrimination in the workplace, supports social Darwinism as modern morality, treats the Constitution as irrelevant or amoral, treats politicians as law enforcement not to be bound by meaningless legal code, and acts only as a giant slush fund to reward wealthy corporate campaign donors..how can I not be cynical?

[Old Mouse]

141. Are you still with us?

I haven't been able to take the time to read all of the posts, but I suspect people got out of the gate emotional on this one. There's just so much to cover, and everyone has their own, personal piece of the puzzle they are most angry at.

The mounting evidence strongly suggests the republican party found a way to manipulate votes on a national and local level, and by careful application of that and other techniques (such as illegal congressional redistricting)gained a majority in the house of representatives during the Clinton administration, and a solid majority of the Senate in the last election.

The evidence is even stronger that George Bush lost the 2000 election, even without Florida, and lost the 2004 election in what could possibly be a landslide.

Under the authority of Secretary of State Colin Powell's son, FCC chairman Michael K. Powell powerful media conglomerates were allowed to buy media outlets in a fashion clearly against long standing US security policy, giving a few multinational corporations virtually all control of radio and television news. Since then the news on television and the news in the paper have seemed to come from two different planets. When you read the papers it becomes apparent that Bush and his entire cabinet lie - a lot. And do so in a way that guarantees the senseless death of innocent people. But if you watch FOX news, you would know nothing of this.

It further becomes apparent that Bush has been altering the checks and balances of government to the point there are no realistic stop on presidential power left. This is quite a serious claim, but unfortunate it is true. To make matters worse, it seems the Republicans in congress are spending all of their time and effort on power consolidation to insure Democrats remain the minority party. The are NOT doing the nation's business, and the entire infrastructure is suffering from neglect. The war effort is not getting the support and attention it needs, job growth, poverty, health issues, safe food water and air, national parks, nothing is being done on any of these fronts by our lawmakers.

To sound even more paranoid, it seems Bush and Rove employ a loose web of former and current intelligence agents, career civil servants and dedicated republicans from various walks of life to carry out illegal acts to maintain his hold on power. This also would seem fantastic if they had not just caught the false newsman Gannon. It is this loose network of operatives that is the most troublesome; This pushes the crimes to high treason and sedition, conspiracy to overthrow the government. Propaganda, slander, vandalism, violence, mayhem and murder. Very hard to track, and leaves us in the confusing reality that we don't know who to trust.

The recent news has strongly indicated they knew 9/11 was coming, and planned in advance to use it to distract from the illegitimacy of the president and grant him sweeping powers over war and civil liberties. That they knew Iraq had no WMD, and had planned an invasion long before 9/11.

To summarize, it is not just the president. This is not about the republican party, or fundamentalist Christians. Our government has been taken over by a small criminal syndicate of war profiteers who have proven they will do absolutely anything to maintain power.

[FreedomFry]

142. "This is not the America I grew up in."

That's my 74-year-old mother speaking.

We were taught that America was the land of the free, a place of opportunity for those who were honest, worked hard and obeyed the law. We were taught that our vote mattered. We were taught that in this country, justice was possible. We were taught that taxes were important to keep the infrastructure strong, to guarantee education for all, and to care for those unable to care for themselves. We were taught that it was right to help those less fortunate. And we were taught, as Thomas Jefferson said, that "a little rebellion now and then is a good thing."

Then came the Reagan, Bush I and Bush II administrations -- and everything we were taught was turned asunder. I believe that the neocons are some of the most cynical, contemptible, narcissistic, dishonest, greedy and downright evil people ever to walk this earth -- and they have the audacity to call themselves "compassionate." They manipulate messages, lie outright, rob honest citizens to attain a disproportionate share of the world's wealth. With malice aforethought, they are systematically waging war on the average American. They have bought out the media and changed all the rules governing ethical behavior -- Texas gerrymandering, Enron, Tom DeLay are perfect examples -- and are currently employing tactics that are horrifyingly reminiscent of Nazi Germany. They rule by fear. They know that fear makes reasonable people do unreasonable things, like support those who keep them fearful.

Republicans are hell-bent on punishing anyone who doesn't march in lockstep with them, and who have the temerity to disagree. They revere those who control vast sums of money. They profit from war. Like crusaders of old, they hide behind religion. They flaunt the Ten Commandments and ignore the Beatitudes. They thumb their noses at the Golden Rule.

Bush is a pretender, an inarticulate bully. Did you know that as a teenager, he placed firecrackers in the anuses of frogs and exploded them? Psychologists tell us that cruelty to animals is a precursor to cruelty to humans. I believe Bush hides behind the trappings of religion, but underneath he is a stupid, self-centered, silver-spooned bully who's been coddled his entire life, who was raised by a sadistic mother who withheld love and encouraged aggression. He and his ilk -- especially his ilk -- are guilty, in my opinion, of sedition and treason, and ought to be tried as war criminals.

The Republicans have fundamentally changed the America that my mother and I grew up in. They are changing it so my son will not have the freedoms, and the opportunities, previous generations have had. That is why I am a DUer. I love this country as it was envisioned, not as it is. I'm angry that those in power have not only betrayed this country's citizens, now and for generations to come, but they're changing every rule in order to hang onto power and destroy every check and balance that has kept America on the right track. It's shameful. It's disgraceful. And it's wrong.

If you don't have the time or the inclination to become educated and angry at what's happening, then you might as well join the half of the nation who voted Republican in the last election. Why you'd want to -- what you think you'll get in return -- is anybody's guess.

Having said all that, I want to tell you why DU is an amazing place. There are intelligent, caring people here, many of whom work hard to keep us informed -- I mean truly informed. When you're tired of the political discourse, visit the Lounge and enjoy the conversation there.

DU is not pablum. It's not a haven for the disaffected. It's a place to get regular reality checks. It's a forum for people like me who have seen the forest for the trees for a long time and are grateful to have found others who truly want to make our country fit to live in again.

Welcome to DU, oldfogey. Thanks for listening. Hope you'll stick around.

[kiki]

143. Hmm, let's see:

Dick 'Lex Luthor' Cheney: Corporate Gangster No. 1;
Donnie Rumsfeld: Death Itself;
Gonzalez: The Torturer-in-Chief;
And now Negroponte, "Mr. Death Squad".

That's just off the top of my head. Doesn't look to good, does it?

[BiggJawn]

144. The Shrub is only the symptom.

The problem goes much deeper than that.

If you want to read something that'll make you wet your pants, go to www.newamericancentury.org and read around. Read the papers that propose Dr. Strangelove-style plans for world domination, read who signed those papars. Yep, that's right, the same band of thieves hiding behind the Shrub, pulling his strings now. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Pearl, they're all there.

And what does America worry about?

Why Mikey Jack-off had to go to the hospital on his way to court the other day, and who got kicked off the island last night, that's what. Stupid Sheep.

And a male prostitute gets credentials to the White House press room, and none of the OTHER whores there wondered "Who *IS* this guy?" and kept their mouths shut. Some "Journalists", eh?

And just this AM, what was the lead story on "See-BS" news? "The Cos" gets his groping charges dropped.

In the meantime, forces are moving to set Iran up with exactly the same bullshit line of crap they fed us in the weeks leading up to dropping bombs on Saddam's outhouse...

It goes much deeper than the Shrub, Oldfogey.

This country is going to entertain and shop itself to death.

[Orsino]

152. Yep. Bread and Circuses n/t

[BiggJawn]

161. Indeed. "Double Thickburgers" and "Reality TV"...

Bread and Circuses V4.51a (BETA)

[DemonFighterLives]

145. Welcome to DU

And also to Etherealtruth.
Oldfogey, why do I have to read this whole thread and you are still being cryptic. Dems. love America and want to right the ship.
Almost seems like you are just playing around here. If you are having a problem understanding what makes DU tick, just stick around and read up.

[SoCalDem]

146. "MOMENT"?????

words fail me :eyes:

[redqueen]

156. Yeah, 8 years is one hell of a moment.

Unbelievable...

[AusTexDem]

147. the entire government ?

The National Cemetery Administration is OK with me.

[Beam Me Up]

149. oldfogey: I have one phrase for you: NATIONAL SECURITY STATE

The ideal of the United States government being a REPRESENTATIVE government of, for and by We, the people, has been supplanted since the end of WW II--and especially since the assassinations of the late 1960s--by a mostly invisible infrastructure often referred to as "The National Security State." However, even before that time, in many important respects the ideal US government had become merely window dressing to keep the working class BELIEVING that it had important decision making power while, behind the scenes or within the 'halls of power' the most important decisions were made by an oligarchy of families, many of whom are tied directly into the National Security State. The family BUSH has insinuated itself prominent among them but is only one of several. They are not a monolithic force but these families and their corporations and transnational moneyed interests, especially as they are tied to defense and organized crime (which they are), constitute THE ACTUAL POWERS behind the scenes.

If you have little time and want a summation, try reading (click on link) Paranoid Shift by Michael Hasty:

Just before his death, James Jesus Angleton, the legendary chief of counterintelligence at the Central Intelligence Agency, was a bitter man. He felt betrayed by the people he had worked for all his life. In the end, he had come to realize that they were never really interested in American ideals of "freedom" and "democracy." They really only wanted "absolute power."

Angleton told author Joseph Trento that the reason he had gotten the counterintelligence job in the first place was by agreeing not to submit "sixty of Allen Dulles' closest friends" to a polygraph test concerning their business deals with the Nazis. In his end-of-life despair, Angleton assumed that he would see all his old companions again "in hell."

The transformation of James Jesus Angleton from an enthusiastic, Ivy League cold warrior, to a bitter old man, is an extreme example of a phenomenon I call a "paranoid shift." I recognize the phenomenon, because something similar happened to me.

/snip/

Perhaps the biggest hidden reason people don't make the paranoid shift is that knowledge brings responsibility. If we acknowledge that an inner circle of ruling elites controls the world's most powerful military and intelligence system; controls the international banking system; controls the most effective and far-reaching propaganda network in history; controls all three branches of government in the world's only superpower; and controls the technology that counts the people's votes, we might be then forced to conclude that we don't live in a particularly democratic system. And then voting and making contributions and trying to stay informed wouldn't be enough. Because then the duty of citizenship would go beyond serving as a loyal opposition, to serving as a "loyal resistance"—like the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War, except that in this case the resistance to fascism would be on the side of the national ideals, rather than the government; and a violent insurgency would not only play into the empire's hands, it would be doomed from the start.

Forming a nonviolent resistance movement, on the other hand, might mean forsaking some middle class comfort, and it would doubtless require a lot of work. It would mean educating ourselves and others about the nature of the truly apocalyptic beast we face. It would mean organizing at the most basic neighborhood level, face to face. (We cannot put our trust in the empire's technology.) It would mean reaching across turf lines and transcending single-issue politics, forming coalitions and sharing data and names and strategies, and applying energy at every level of government, local to global. It would also probably mean civil disobedience, at a time when the Bush regime is starting to classify that action as "terrorism." In the end, it may mean organizing a progressive confederacy to govern ourselves, just as our revolutionary founders formed the Continental Congress. It would mean being wise as serpents, and gentle as doves.

It would be a lot of work. It would also require critical mass. A paradigm shift.

There are spheres of policy which are directly affected by representatives of We the people

[Orsino]

151. * is a symptom, not the disease.

The disease is the system that installs radical corporatists while tame media help paint them as folksy populists. The disease ensures that if Big Money ever gets tired of *, they'll install a new and improved face who pushes their same line of anti-democratic venom.

The Democratic party is heavily infected, and can't muster the courage to identify the real problem--money. When the opposition has been made irrelevant (the filibuster is the last power they have, and it will soon be gone), we will have true one-party rule, with society managed so as to make peaceful change impossible.

I'm getting out before the fascists incite violent revolution. Canada may not be safe for much longer, but I will eventually be able to stop paying taxes that support our tyranny machine. Until the tanks roll north, anyway.

[redqueen]

155. This thread got reeeeeeeally long... was an example of this EVER provided?

Hmmmmmmm?

I'm way past fed up with this kind of stuff... it's like that crappy journalism we see far too much of, "some people say..."

[RetroLounge]

172. I was thinking the same thing

No examples. No proof. Some people say...

:hi:

RL

[SheepyMcSheepster]

157. i would say most of "us" have not given up.

what evidence do you have that some of "us" are so willing to write off the entire government because of bush?

welcome to DU!
:hi:

[Jokinomx]

169. I have read most of the posts and the only thing I can add is this.....

Welcome to the D.U. :toast:

With membership over 60,000 you are bound to have some people that are more radical than others. You cannot lump the entire membership into "giving up on the government". Truthfully I have found information here that would have taken me weeks or months to find. Ask for help with a topic ... I am positive you will find more than you need to understand that topic completely.

This site is the single greatest forum on the web ... in my humble opinion.

Have I given up on the government..... only the part that chimp has had his fingers in. I can't trust him. He has lied to many times. The part of government I still trust.... well... my Senator..Carl Levin and some of my state representatives. I can't trust a republican since they support chimp and his lies.

Again ... Welcome... and I look forward to read more of your posts. I wish you the best with your personal issues also... O8)

[foreigncorrespondent]

171. Could it be because...

...the right wing stands for oppression, wars, more wars, hate, bigotry, again more wars, etc. And there has not been one positive thing to come out of this government in the four years they have held power?

[aintitfunny]

178. Who's Writing off the Country?

Who is giving up the entire country? I don't get that at all. There are all kinds of posters on DU. Many express themselves passionately and this passion derives from their strong feelings and LOVE OF COUNTRY. I know that is what drives me personally.

We are forced to stand in the background and watch while Bush and his cohorts heap damage on our great Nation. While they labor to increase the poverty rolls and decrease the burden and accountability of our most fortunate and wealthy citizens. We can do little more than express our distaste for this administration's bent for turning our secular nation into a Christian Fundamentalist state. We watch, in pain as Bush garbles the language while badly expressing how he wants to destroy social security or heap more damage on the environment or take away the little guy's recourse against big business. We weep as we see the destruction he and his chicken-hawks have wreaked upon Iraq and their apparent lack of concern for our troops (all talk no action) and we fear that their beady little eyes may now be focused squarely on Iran and Syria.

So, our purpose is not to write off our country, it is to enrich it. We are not giving up on our nation, we are trying to protect it from those who would do irreparable harm. For someone on this board to suggest otherwise is frankly a little scary. It is exactly the tact that this administration and its supporters take. If you are not with us, you must hate your country. Wrong, so wrong.