Do you think the voting age should be lowered to 16?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

Poll question: Do you think the voting age should be lowered to 16?

I am posting this poll on behalf of DU'er Stop_The_War

[donheld]

1. Why?

[stevedeshazer]

25. Why not?

[Redleg]

77. Why not lower it to 12 years of age? Why not 8?

[stevedeshazer]

91. Okay!

At least it would be in line with the average reading level in this country. :)

[Redleg]

158. LOL

That makes sense in a strange sort of way.

[Seabiscuit]

120. Lower it to 16 only if the draft age is lowered to 16. Then give them

voting rights at 16. That's what led to it all getting lowered from 21 to 18.

[regnaD kciN]

118. I think it should be restricted to people 100 and over...

...as measured in IQ, not age.

A twelve-year-old genius should be able to vote, a thirty-year-old knuckledragger should not.

If voting was restricted by IQ rather than age, we'd win almost every election.

;-)

[mcscajun]

2. Why would we want to do this?

I can't see any good reason for it, myself.

[stevedeshazer]

26. Is there a good reason not to?

[mcscajun]

74. The argument needs to be made why we should, not why we shouldn't

When I was 18, I couldn't vote -- the right hadn't passed to my age group yet. Our argument then was around 'the age of majority' needing to be related to the age of the draft. The thought at that time was, if you were old enough to fight and die, you were old enough to vote. Also, old enough to drink.

This argument prevailed in short order, and I was able to vote in my first Presidential election when I was a few weeks shy of my 21st birthday. Without it, I'd have missed the election and not been able to vote for President until I was nearly 25.

We grants rights and privileges to adults we do not grant to minors; voting is one of them. If today's 16 year olds want to make a cogent argument for extending the suffrage below the age of majority, let them make one; just asking won't do it.

[stevedeshazer]

90. Your first two paragraphs I could have written myself

I'm just not sure how all that led to the third one. :shrug:

[mcscajun]

94. It's simple -- we wanted the vote and made the argument WHY

we should have it.

If 16-year-olds feel they want and deserve the vote, they need to make the argument WHY -- not ask "Why not?"

[JackRiddler]

112. Ridiculous

Why is a 70-year-old more qualified to vote than a 17-year-old? This is completely arbitrary.

One-fourth of US citizens affected by the election are automatically cut out. Why?

Why shouldn't 8-year-olds be allowed to vote? How are they less qualified than your average 19-year-old to have a say in decisions that affect their lives?

The voting age is arbitrary, and I'm sorry, you're unlikely to come up with an argument why 18 is magic and 17 is not.

[serryjw]

117. You are legal for most things at 18

I was part of the argument lowering the age to 18. When you can go fight for your country , you sure are old enough to vote for whom is going to send you there. Most kids are working or away at college and have outside influences by 18. Anyone younger is going to be totally influenced by their parents. SH*T the recent study that showed a large % of HS students didn't think the 1st amendment was important. You want me to lower the age so the kids can vote to allow the 'terminator' to be our future President...I don't think so.

[Norquist Nemesis]

143. Yes.

Because they have not reached the age of majority. In some states it is 18, others 21, but none are 16.

Reaching majority includes more than just armed service eligibility. Which, if I'm getting your point, seems to be your primary argument. When an individual reaches majority age, he/she can legally sign a binding contract, buy property, and basically have sole responsibility for his/her actions. In other words, they don't need permission from an adult.

Voting, obviously, is more involved than casting a ballot for the person one wants representing him/her. A 16 year old is likely not interested in or inclined to learn about such things as tax referendums, bond issues, and ordinances. Granted, and 18 or 21 (or older) may not be either, unless they have a legal vested interest (unlike a 16 year old, who legally cannot have that interest).

[mattclearing]

59. Other than the fact that youth skews heavily liberal?

Or do you believe that we should continue heaping debt on our young people without giving them a say?

I'd let 10 year olds vote over those people that say we should just nuke Baghdad. WTF?

[mcscajun]

80. They may skew heavily liberal today...or not.

I'm not necessarily convinced one way or the other on that question.

However, let's say for arguments sake, that todays youth does skew heavily liberal; should we then make our decision based on that fact and that fact alone? And who's to say which way they'll vote in the future? We shouldn't consider permanent changes based on temporary conditions that might not apply in future.

[mattclearing]

92. Youth always skews against the status quo.

That never favors the establishment party, which the Republicans undoubtedly are.

[mcscajun]

95. I knew a AWFUL lot of Young Republicans when I was a young radical.

And this was in the "liberal Northeast"

[mattclearing]

102. You didn't educate them? n/t

[mcscajun]

124. Then, as now, there are some serious mindsets among Repubs

That are very, very resistant to 'education' — particularly when there were a few history and economics teachers in my H.S. who were a) borderline fascist and/or b) even then, were preaching Against Social Security.

And, like I said, this was in NYC! I should point out it was a Catholic H.S.

[agitpropagent9]

129. can you substantiate such a "fact"?

much of the data i've seen show that younger people are trending conservative.

[sundog]

3. lots of smart kids 16-17... but I'm afraid too many would be manipulated

before they had enough life experience to form a solid personal opinion

on edit: it's not the kids that worry me, it's the adults

[Eric J in MN]

11. Yes, high schools would feed the students more propaganda if

the voting age were lowered to 16.

[sundog]

13. yup - irresponsible adults would be screwing with kids' minds more than

they already do... instead of letting them be kids

[JackRiddler]

114. It is impossible...

for irresponsible adults to screw with children's minds MORE than they now do.

This phenomenon long ago reached the saturation point.

Advertising = industrial corruption of youth

video games = nervous destruction of youth

"religion" = brainwashing of youth

"school" = state warehousing of youth

military = conversion of youth into cannon fodder justified by the lie of "patriotism"

"pledge of allegiance" = totalitarian creed forced on youth

media = ditto, ditto to various aspects of avove

Corporations run schools! They show ad-driven TV in the classroom

And you're telling me this will get "worse" when youth is allowed to vote?! Please!

[sundog]

130. Yes, I do think it would get worse

Sadly, truly altruistic adults are far and few between.

I'm afraid that campaigns to forcefully skew young peoples' minds would grow progressively more aggressive.

Rather than use it as an opportunity to engage & stimulate expansive thought, I fear a large percentage of adults would use it for purely selfish purposes.

"You can't play with Jenny cause her parents are libruls and you's gonna vote in 2 years, and I'm not gonna have you voting for no Democrats."


In the words of Carlos Santana: "Let the children play, Ellos tienen que jugar"

[FreedomAngel82]

52. I agree

It's something that kind of officially makes you an adult. I think it should stay where it is.

[JackRiddler]

113. Excuse me?

Manipulated? This is a function of age? Are you telling me people are wiser by virtue of being 40 as opposed to 14? This is complete bullshit. Unfortunately age (as opposed to experience) has NOTHING to do with wisdom. Need I argue this (as an average 40-year-old)?

Voting age is arbitrary. One-quarter of the population is disenfranchised.

This would provide incentive for kids to actually learn what is going on around them.

In the current social security debate, why do those who are guaranteed to get their benefits have more say than those who we are told will never get their benefits if a private system is not set up?

WTF?

[Misunderestimator]

119. Of course wisdom comes with age, just as experience does...

Of course, if you don't experience much during your life, you might not gain much wisdom, but you are CERTAINLY not born with wisdom, and I've met very few kids who are still living dependently with their parents who are that wise. Smart, astute, clever yes... wise, not yet.

And you can't tell me you believe that kids would not be influenced politically even more by their parents and teachers (instead of by their own investigation)... do you not believe that they are even more vulnerable to that manipulation? I believe they are.

[JackRiddler]

155. I guess we live on different planets...

I'm on the one where (correct me if I'm wrong) the over-65's give the largest margin to Bush.

My conservative observation is that people are wise or they aren't. They certainly learn, but for most the learning's over by 30, sometimes as early as 15. Interesting that if we therefore raise the voting age to 30 it may mean permanent Republican majorities, isn't it?

I'll admit there are various kinds of wisdom, in this case we are talking about the ability to judge others at a remote distance.

Very few of the unwise cross over to wise in their lives, and experience in large part teaches by beating people down and crushing their imagination.

Have you noticed that bitterness tends to increase with age?

Luckily, none of these conclusions are absolute, and hope lives among the exceptional people of all ages.

[sundog]

135. The statements I made were based purely on personal experience

I cannot claim to have the definitive answer to the original question.

To sum up why I feel this way in a nutshell:

During the 1988 Presidential race, I was age 16/17. At the time, I was still living with my foster family in a very conservative, republican environment (both at home & in the community). I was also very closeted. I could not vote that year, but I'm quite sure if I had been able, I would have cast a vote for HW *

By the time the 1992 election rolled around, I had left home, come out of the closet, started college, and had undergone nothing short of a personal revolution. I experienced an intense mental progression in a short period of time. The first vote I ever cast was for Clinton.

Once again, I cannot assert a definitive answer. There are some exceptional kids who no doubt have a greater capacity for knowledge than most adults. I am simply considering personal changes that occurred in that particular age frame.

This thread has made some interesting reading. Opinions are merely a product of experience. Anything existing within the confines of ego is subject to deconstruction.

[DaCheat]

4. Why?

Most people at 16 don't know right from wrong, and can't form their own opinion about key matters. There isn't much of a need for little parrots of parents running around voting.

[Darranar]

8. And half the current voting public voted for Bush. n/t

[ChairOne]

23. they can't even *spell* "right" or "wrong" for fuck's sakes... /eom

[stevedeshazer]

27. Why not?

[mattclearing]

62. Whatever. What 16 year olds do you know that parrot their parents? n/t

[JackRiddler]

141. You're missing the point

Most people at age 40 don't know right from wrong, and can't form their own opinion about key matters. Even more so in the United States than in most countries. If you want to ban parrots, you'll have to disenfranchise the adult majority as well as the children.

We tolerate this because democracy happens to be the only workable system in which justice and freedom have a chance - obviously no guarantee, given recent results.

Who or what represents minors in politics? You? You don't see a problem here?

I don't want to be facetious - obviously infants can't vote. But it's worth realizing, and I hope not merely academic, that the age limit is always going to be arbitrary and inject a measure of injustice and disenfranchisement.

I think the franchise for 12 and up is quite reasonable. And yes, the manipulation of youth will continue - at least the new subject of that manipulation will be their sovereign power as citizens, in addition to their sneaker and video game choices. They may actually start to think about their society instead of only sports and fashion.

I am certain this would improve political intelligence quotients. Whatever their impressionability, or in fact because of their impresssionability, children learn more easily, and often take the choices offered to them as seriously as the ideal adult. Teenagers are if anything likelier to look for a big picture and want to make a moral choice than to vote some perceived economic self-interest (as the majority of adults do).

I say the net impact will be greater political awareness, thoughtfulness and sense of responsibility among all. (And I expect the vote will break very similar to the overall popular adult vote.)

But maybe I'm deluded. Perhaps all you will see as a result of such a chance is politicians doing appeals to testosterone, trying to look cool, and explaining their Middle East plan in terms used by Mr. Rogers.

Ooops, that's what we already have!

[JackRiddler]

142. PS

How minors would vote is not to the point either, but for what it's worth at 13 I might have voted Republican but at 15 (my actual political awakening) I was aghast at the arrival of Reagan. I suspect for most kids the "tree pollution" comment* would have been enough to disqualify him no matter what their parents said.

* "89 percent of all pollution comes from trees." - RWR

[Mr.Green93]

5. We trust them to drive

why not to vote?

[bigwillq]

6. I agree-I think 16 would be a good age

Yes, they might be influenced by parents or other adults but maybe it'll get more younger folk interested in politics if they could vote. They need to teach classes that educate our youth about the importance of voting and how the political system works. We didn't have much of that in my schools.

[DaCheat]

7. In South Carolina, you need special courses

Called driver's ed. You can't drive at 16 unless you pass driver's ed, but unfortunatly there could never the a Voting Ed, because there will always be unbias people. The rules of the road aren't bias, voting is though.

[ChairOne]

24. Ok - raise the driving age /eom

[LiberallyInclined]

146. exactly- the driving age should be 18 or high school graduation.

IMHO.

[Orangepeel]

65. what does one have to do with the other?

[Kahuna]

75. We do? NJ RAISED the age to drive unsupervised from 17

to 18 or 19. I was very happy about that.

[housewolf]

9. I think 18 is the right age

I don't see any reason why 16 & 17 yrs olds should vote. In my mind, voting is one of the "rights and responsibilities" granted when one reaches majority. We withhold many rights and responsibilities from minors, and require parental authorization for many things those in their majority take for granted. I don't think the right to vote should be extended to minors, I just don't see any reason for it.

I agreed with the lowering of the voting age from 21 to 18 back in the 60's & 70's - because there was a reason for it at that time. 18 Year olds could be drafted, yet they had no ability to vote for representation. It was right at the time to give 18 years olds the right to vote for their representation.

[Guy Fawkes]

10. f*ck no!

Way too many people under 18 (and over 18) just follow 'trends' when it comes to politics. If it is cool to back someone, they'll do it. I know someone who refuses to watch the news, read the paper, listen to the radio, etc. but is a HUGE bush supporter.

[stevedeshazer]

29. *riiighhht*

Like adults don't?

[mattclearing]

64. There are plenty of adults like that. What's the difference?

[Guy Fawkes]

160. ... society teaches me to respect my elders.

Therefore, adults are infallible and only my classmates are idiots. :evilgrin:

[Darranar]

79. And of course, adults are all independent, thinking beings. n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. No.

Eighteen is the age of legal majority; I see no reason to lower the voting age to sixteen simply because some states allow sixteen-year-olds to drive.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. Voting age used to be 21..but after they started the draft it was lowered

[FreedomAngel82]

55. Can you

draft 16 year olds though? I thought the drafting age was 18 up? So that age makes sense. If you can go and fight in a war you should be able to vote.

[WillyT]

60. Maybe... When You Hear The Beat Of The War Drums...

and see the smoke on the horizon...

You should be able to vote as well.

I think a two year cushion would be OK!

:shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. At this time no although I do bellieve you can get into the military

under the age of 18...I believe one registers for selective service under the age of 18 and I also know many states have passed laws where minors can be tried as adults for crimes.

Therefore, I we hold that someone at 16 can reason well enough to consider the consequences of a crime, I think we can trust them with the consequences of a vote.

BTW, I started this poll at the request of a DU'er who is unable to create polls...I am not attached to the outcome of the poll and until I posted it for this person, I really didn't consider where my position stands about people under the age of 18 voting.

SO it wasn't until I began to consider just HOW responsible society holds minors now, that I entertained the thought.

Actually I would be MORE reticent to let a minor vote for the simple fact that adult parents might use it to control votes.

I'm less concerned about trusting the kid with the vote than with trusting parents not to require the kid to vote their way via intimidation.

[oldfogey]

15. They don't even seem to

understand enough about politics at that age to be able to see through the lies and propaganda. I've seen it with my grandkids. They are to easily persuaded at that age. They need longer to experience real life before being able to make an informed decision.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. You'd be surprised at how many well informed posts on this site

are by kids under the age of 18. John Kleeb has a great knowledge of history and a better handle on the issues than many adults who post here.

[oldfogey]

19. I'm still new

but didn't mean to insult any of the younger members.

[RC]

31. One out of how many millions?

Let's see a few more thousands examples from the real world out there. This web site attracts those that at the very least question what they are being told and try to find out what the real story is.
Out in the real world, more often than not most people don't have much of a clue about how close to ruin bu$h is driving this country.
DU does not represent the views of the average person walking around loose out there.

[FreedomAngel82]

57. I remember one time

Malloy had a special on his show where only teens could call in. It ended up being the whole show (he was going to do the first hour). I didn't catch it all but some of the stuff they talked about was great. There was one boy who has called in a few times and he's like 16 or so and very well informed and smart with politics.

[Dr.Phool]

16. I think the voting IQ

Should be raised to at least 16.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. I don't have a problem with it. Many states have passed laws trying kids

as adults for the sake of punishment. If someone is defined as an adult for the sake of claiming they knew the consequences of their actions, why not let them vote?

[Misunderestimator]

121. Well, it certainly is a great time to discuss adult sentences for juvenile

offenders... and I would agree with you completely. Frankly, if a 15 year old can be treated like an adult and sentenced to an adult sentence for killing his grandparents when he was 12, he should have been able to vote too. After all, 12 people found him cognizant and mature enough to treat him like an "adult."

[Lone_Star_Dem]

20. At 16 most young people don't understand fully what it's like to live

....on their own. They don't have a full grasp yet on how politics influence your daily life. Many are just beginning to form their own opinions and not mirror those of their parents.

I think 16 is too young for most young people to make an informed choice.

[stevedeshazer]

30. Two words

Adult Republicans

[Lone_Star_Dem]

35. I hear you.

I'm not talking about stupid people who will never learn. That's a whole different poll.

Poll Question:
Should you have to pass an IQ test to vote? :P

[stevedeshazer]

41. No, no IQ test

But my point is in part that there are probably just as many uninformed adults as 16 year-olds. What's the difference?

Jeez, if stupid people weren't allowed to vote, imagine the possibilities. I might be screened out! :silly:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

48. The difference as I see it is

Many of the 16 year olds do go on to become informed voters later in life. Some people never do, I agree.

My daughter is 17 and when I asked her opinion she said, "I don't know any 16 year olds who know enough about life to vote".

[stevedeshazer]

49. I hear that,

My son is 17, to be fair I asked him the same question (and he is very politically aware) and he basically agrees with your daughter.

Specifically, when I him if the voting age should be lowered to 16, he said, quote, "considering how many of them love Bush, no."

And we live in a town that voted 75% Kerry.

That is scary, I'll admit, but I still think the voting age should be lowered despite the times we live in.

One reason I am so passionate about this is that when I was in high school, I fought for lowering the voting age from 21 to 18. I was about to get drafted, and I felt I ought to at least have a say in it.

[FreedomAngel82]

68. I think the thing with

some young people is they like to follow the popular trend. Right now it's popular and "patriotic" to be a Bush supporter and to be a pro-Bush republican. So I don't know. Just like it's a fad now to be a "punk" even though they have no idea what it means.

[RedCappedBandit]

105. Well then,

your 17 year old daughter doesn't know enough about her peers to give input.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

108. How would you know that?

I'm just curious on what basis you would make a statement like that.

[RedCappedBandit]

122. If she claims

that she doesn't know any 16 year old able to make such an important decision, then she simply either doesn't know many of them, or is only talking to immature people. As a high school student, I can confidentally say that most of my peers should be able to vote.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

144. I see

Steve_DeShazer's son said his 17 year old agreed, you disagree. It's interesting. I suppose it might depend on where you are and what your peers are exposed to. I disagree with your assessment of my daughter it's assuming far too much that isn't correct and that you have no way of knowing. Where we are you don't take Government/Civics until you are a Senior. Our entire state is like that. It was one of my daughters reasons for her decision. I have to agree that a working concept of how the Government functions should be a prerequisite to voting. Our society isn't structured (at this time) to prepare 16 year olds to vote. Perhaps if there were changes made to our society more young people would be prepared. As it is now most young people under 18 aren't.

I would worry about the other complications that might arise from lowering the voting age. The mentality of, if your old enough to vote your old enough to; A) be drafted, B) be tried as an adult (this would then include all misdemeanor crimes and they would carry over to your adult record) C) move out on your own. The only reason they lowered it before was to give those being drafted a voice. The temptation to exploit this would be there.

For what it's worth I also don't think that a minor (under 18) should be tried as and adult. I don't think a minor should be able to move out on their own. I've known too many 16 year olds who disagreed with their parents over trivial things and swore they would if they were allowed. I also don't think a 16 year old should ever, under any circumstance be drafted into the military.

As I said originally, I feel many (that doesn't mean all) 16 year olds aren't ready to vote.

[DeaconBlues]

21. When I was sixteen and seventeen

I thought Reagan was the shiznit and read "Soldier of Fortune" magazine. That's all I need to remember to know that sixteen year olds should not be allowed to vote.

Of course, I was allowed to sign up for the Army when I was sixteen and shipped to basic training when I was seventeen. Maybe something should be done to stop crap like that.

[stevedeshazer]

45. When my brother was 16-17, he hated Reagan and all he stood for

Now he volunteers for the Republican Party.

Seems like a pretty closed mind you have there.

[DeaconBlues]

123. OK, how's this

Sixteen and seventeen year olds are not as cognitively developed as adults, especially when it comes to the executive function of the brain which deals with impulse control. They also have less life experience which is needed for the crystallization of attitudes. This means that they are more susceptible to emotional and dogmatic persuasion, they are easily controlled. They are less capable of reasoned, independent decision-making. Don't believe me, just look at the research.

Yes, some adults are like this, as well. But the percentage of adults is much smaller than the percentage of teens. This doesn't mean that there is something wrong with teens, they just need time to grow up, just like people who attack others as being "pretty closed minded" just because they have a differing opinion need to grow up.

[stevedeshazer]

131. My wife's an MSW, she agrees with you.

Thanks.

[JackRiddler]

147. I dispute this

The majority of adults are children faking as grown-ups, impulse driven and held down only by economic and social necessities - which they grasp better since they're forced, but which they are even less likely to question or want to change.

Tell me this country - government and corporations - isn't run by ruthless, power-obsessed, self-centered rapacious children with a simplistic map of the world and relatively well-developed attention spans.

[stevedeshazer]

22. Yes

You all amaze me. You really do.

Try growing up in the draft years and not having a voice.

You guys honestly don't think a sixteen year-old should not have the right to vote? The persons elected may hold great power over those who are disenfranchised and can't vote.

Come on now, anti-vote defenders, tell me why an informed sixteen year-old should not be allowed to vote.

:taps foot:

[superconnected]

39. I just see reps with their mulitple children

dragging them in and making them vote for people like gw. At least if they waited a few more years they could gain more insight. Most people are living at home at 16 and are still kids. By 18 they are striking out on their own and then their decisions start really hitting them.

[stevedeshazer]

43. I see your point

But I see just as many bright kids empowered on our side. :)

[walldude]

42. Because most 16 year olds aren't informed..

and don't care to be. Am I the only one who saw the poll where more than half of the high school kids think that the news should be censored by the government? That the Constitution affords too much protection? I gotta tell you I didn't give a crap about the Constitution, the Government, or my voting rights till I was at least 25. Truth be told, 16 year olds shouldn't have to be worried about the government. There is plenty of time for them to get serious about issues. At 16 kids should be worried about who's on the album charts, what's topping the box office, where is the next party, and when they are going to get laid. You know.. having fun! At 16 a kid gets his first true taste of freedom, driving, let them enjoy it for awhile....

[stevedeshazer]

47. And what better way to get young people involved than by voting?

Most adults aren't informed and don't care to be. So what?

I should counsel my kid to get laid and where is the next party?

Which "album chart"?

[walldude]

63. NO you shouldn't counsel your kid on getting laid and partying

he/she should be sneaking around doing it behind your back ;)

I just think with SAT's, college, and new found freedom, 16 year olds have enough on their plates. IMHO we as a society seem to be pushing kids to grow up faster. Didn't you as a kid want nothing more than to be grown up and independant? Then when you got there you wished you were a kid again? Well I did and that's kinda where I'm coming from... I was in such a hurry to grow up I quit school and moved out of my parents house when I was 17. Maybe that's where the different perspective comes from...

Oh and the album charts I followed in my day were the Heavy Metal charts. I couldn't tell you what 16 year olds listen to today. My oldest is 10 and he loves the Beatles... smart kid...

[stevedeshazer]

67. OK, I admit

I did the same. :)

[walldude]

81. Why is it that on DU even people who disagree

can always find some common ground. :toast: To you and yours!

[stevedeshazer]

87. That's what makes us liberals!

:toast:

[mcscajun]

83. Who's going to sort out the Informed 16-year-olds from the rest?

And we can't make this about "informed" or not, as we all know there are LEGIONS of UNiformed Adult voters out there, and nobody's going to take the suffrage away from them.

[Poppyseedman]

84. Answer

Even an informed 16 year, (that's an oxymoron if ever there was one) should not be allowed to vote simply because they do not bear the consequences of voting foolishly.

Are they going to pay your SS if they swing the vote to cut you off or diminish your benefits?

Are they going to fund social programs because they don't understand how society works?

Are they going to put the best qualified or the best looking person in office?

Are they going to ask Britney Spears how to vote because her video was really hot or is that phat?

They don't typically pay property tax, their income is small or they have none at all, so their federal tax burden is non existent.

Most think with their sex organs or how they "feel" at any given moment. They are easily persuaded because they have not had the life experiences to decide what's bullshit or what can pass as the truth.

As adults we bear the cost of who we put in power. Children don't. 16 year olds are still, at least in this country children, who still need direction and mentoring to make good choices.

There are the few who are the exception, but it's not a good enough reason to give them the privilege to vote until they have earned it by taking on the responsibility of adulthood.

[mcscajun]

98. Excellent argument.

I also note a great many calls for "they're paying taxes, so they should have the vote."

So do some infants and toddlers who model for television, act in movies, or are simply the children of wealthy parents. Should we then just keep sliding the vote down until "You have to be 'this' tall to vote" applies?

[Poppyseedman]

99. The ones who are paying federal income tax

typically get all or a large percentage of it back at the end of the year, if they file.

So in fact they are paying very little.

[Beam Me Up]

28. No. If anything it should be raised. So many immature 20 somethings...

...just kidding kids.

:headbang:

[jmowreader]

32. Only for Democrats.

The voting age for Republicans should be raised a bit...how's 112 sound to you?

[DU GrovelBot]

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[DrWeird]

34. I think the voting maximum should be lowered to forty.

Old people just aren't responsible enough to count.

[stevedeshazer]

51. Careful there, sonny

I'll have to whack you with my cane. I can see you with my one good eye.

[Kahuna]

78. Wisdom comes with age, my friend. Guess you don't..

want wise voters. :eyes:

[Journeyman]

36. Anyone remember the end to that silly book, "Wild in the Streets"...

when the two 14 year olds glare at the "President" (a very old 24), and one kid whispers to the other, "Ya can't trust anyone over 18."

[Lisabtrucking]

37. My 16 year old works and pays tax's, why shouldn't he vote.

If we can send a 12 year old to prison, then we should let them vote. Yes if your going to send a 12 year old to an adult place then by all means let them vote.

[stevedeshazer]

44. *ding*

Thank you.

[Johonny]

38. I like the idea

Given the poor showing of 18-21 year olds on election day I'm not sure it would matter. I mean until the young start voting no one is going to care what they stand for. Perhaps lowering to an age when most kids are still in high school will help the turn outs. I could see reasons why this might be true.

[Piperay]

40. No because

I think that you need more life experience than what you have at sixteen to be a more informed voter. People over 18 are making stupid enough decisions with their vote, we don't need to add any younger ones to the mix.

[ultraist]

46. No

Level of moral reasoning is age related and correlated with brain development (Piaget, Kohlberg, Gilligan). 18 year olds are more likely to possess the ability to engage in second order moral reasoning, whereas most 16 year olds likely are incapable of this level of reasoning.

Evaluating social policies and other pieces of legislation or even considering the values of a political party, requires a second order reasoning.

Children are not little adults. Neuro-psych research has shown that brain development, moral reasoning development are processes that continue throughout childhood, thus abilities continue to be aquired until 18-20.

After the age of approximately 20, the synapse connections begin a pruning process.

This is not to say an old dog cannot learn new tricks, but that children are do not possess the same capablities as adults.

[H2O Man]

50. Although I haven't read

"Lord of the Flies" lately, I would propose that we restrict voting to 16 to 21 year olds. No one else. Let's give it a try for a couple decades, and see where that takes us.

[peace4all]

54. I'm with you!

the adults have been a miserable failure!
How could we possibly do worse?

[HEyHEY]

53. No - freakin' way

This is just how Cambodia got started.

Well, not really

[jpgray]

56. Too few are physically and mentally mature

It's a n unspeakable tragedy those few can't vote, but I think you have to draw the line somewhere. I've met seven year-olds that are more qualified to vote than some adults I've met, but I don't want the voting age at seven. Traditionally, these folks are also wholly dependent on their parents--this lessens as the ol' eighteen mark comes around.

[bloom]

58. I said yes because of the draft issue, mostly.

I think we don't give teens enough credit.

[Orangepeel]

61. There should be one age of majority

at which you become a full fledged citizen with all the rights given to citizens. That's the age at which they should be able to vote.

I don't think it should be 16, because I don't think 16 year olds should be legally allowed to drink or sign contracts or leave school.

Maybe it should be 18, maybe 21, I don't know.

[doc03]

66. With our recent track record maybe only people 16 and under

should vote.

[G_j]

69. I voted YES

why do adults think they are so damn smart?
It wasn't the 16 yr olds who gave us Bush, Faux news, war crimes, torture, global warming, Gonzales, Negroponte, the Clinton impeachment, and so on. In fact 'we' gave it all to them! It's their future. If I was a 16 yr old reading this I would be pissed!

[stevedeshazer]

70. There ya go

Can you blame 'em?

[PA Democrat]

71. When I was 16, I was paying taxes,

but I had no say in how those taxes were spent.

My 15 year old would put most American adults to shame with his knowledge of current events and politics. I know that my husband and I have influenced his politics somewhat, but let me tell you at that age kids do NOT march in lock step with their parents.

[Toucano]

73. Me too.

But the fix for that is tax reform, not election reform.

[PA Democrat]

85. I don't agree

It's hardly fair to draft someone when they didn't have a chance to influence the government that sends them off to die.

I think you'd be surprised how much attention kids are paying to politics these days. I wish adults were as attentive.

[Toucano]

140. That's just an absurdity.

We don't draft anybody. Also, it ignores the fact that parents vote with the interests of their minor children in mind.

With your reasoning, whey not let 5 year olds vote? Afterall, they have no voice in forming the govermnent that sends them off to die in mercury filled skies over their playgrounds.

Since the age was lowered, 18-21 year old turnout has been flat. Money spent reaching out to young voters has been flushed down the toilet.

I wouldn't be "suprised" because it isn't happening. Remember the recent survey that showed the youth thinks the 1st amendment goes too far? Yeah! Let's give 'em ballots!

They'll elect Paris Hilton.

[PA Democrat]

151. Wow!

By your logic we shouldn't allow the majority of adults to vote nor should we reach out to register any new voters. And I'll tell my son not to bother to register for Selective Service, after all why bother since we don't draft people any more.

I've actually had more intelligent political conversations with teenagers who were too young to vote than I've had with many of their parents. I saw this type of insulting attitude of the "adults" toward young people in the 60's. Sad to see us repeating the same mistake.

I don't know what figures on voter turnout you are using, because I haven't seen anything that would support your claim. What I have seen reported was that 2004 saw the highest youth turnout in more than a decade. Turnout among young voters was especially high in the battleground states, and the youth vote went for Kerry by more than 10 percentage points (the only age group that did break for Kerry BTW).

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/2004-11-08-under30_x.htm?csp=36

http://www.indstate.edu/adp/docs/election%20release%202004%20-final.pdf

Your comment about money spent to register young voters "flushed down the toilet" is a real insult to the many young people with whom I had the pleasure of working on the Kerry campaign. They were some of the most energetic and dependable volunteers we had. And it is also insulting to the young voters on a local college campus who waited in line until MIDNIGHT for the privilege of voting. You ought to read the links above before making any more derogatory claims about the youth vote.

[Toucano]

159. Good articles. Thank you.

Okay, you've got me on the turnout.

That news came during my post-election trauma period and I wasn't aware of it. If nothing else, at least I won't go around with the original misreported turnout now. Thanks. I happily concede that point.

But there are other arguments you haven't addressed.

Why 16? What's so magical about 16? Why not 15 or 14? If a draft were initiated, those who were 15 at the time of the election could be 18 before the president's term was up and equally subject to a draft. Contrary to popular misconception, 16 year olds are only allowed to get a driver's license with their parents permission, so that doesn't represent any emancipation. Their parents hold the final responsibility.

Why 18, though? Isn't it equally arbitrary? Of course, it is. Nothing magical happens on the day one turns 18. When the age was lowered from 21, however, it brought the right to vote in line with the majority of other rights and responsibilities our society confers on it's citizens. Putting the right to vote below the other rights and responsibilites isn't justified or prudent.

I hope you'll admit that the teens we met during the campaign, and those that either of us know personally represent too small of a sample to draw conclusions from. National survey data is more reliable.

http://www.eagleton.rutgers.edu/CEPP/NewGeneration.html
"Young adults' lack of political knowledge and consistent inattention to political news are evidence of their alienation from politics. Those under the age of 25 are the least likely among all age groups to read, watch, or listen to political news. Newspaper readership has been on the decline overall, but young people are significantly less likely to read the newspaper for political news than are their elders. The same is true for television news. A 1998 Pew Center study showed that only 19% of those born after 1978 regularly watch network television news compared with 59% of those in the oldest birth cohort. Forty-nine percent of the young watch local news compared with 77% of the oldest viewers.

In surveys and focus groups, young people frequently report a lack of knowledge about political affairs as a reason for not voting. Yet they appear to be unmotivated to seek out information."

http://www.dailytargum.com/news/2004/03/11/PageOne/Panel.Analyzes.Quality.Of.Youth.News.Sense-631499.shtml

"There is a decline in news consumption and political participation among young people in the United States, as they turn away from traditional news sources and become less involved."

These studies deal with 18 year olds, but I've seen nothing to suggest that 16 year olds are somehow better informed.

Personally, I don't think we need more uninformed citizens in the voting pool. The lack of awareness among older voter's is hardly tolerable as it is.

But unaware voters 18 and older are allowed to vote, aren't they? Obviously they are, but they are also held legally responsible for all their actions. 16 year olds are not and should not.

The responsibility to protect children from bad government policy rests with their parents, just as the responsibility to provide food and housing does.

As for reaching out to new voters, I didn't intend to suggest we stop, but since you brought it up, suppressing the vote seems to be working pretty well for the Republicans. I intended to suggest that we stick to a consistent message that doesn't rely so heavily on "image" and superficialities required to attract young voters. We have to bring people in for the CONTENT of our message, not the wrapper.

Thanks again for setting me straight with the 2004 turnout. :)

[qwghlmian]

82. And what makes you think that

you have a "say" in how these taxes are spent now?

[WillyT]

72. It's Hard To Take The 'Maturity' Reasoning, After This Last Election !!!

At least for me.

Given what was SO SELF EVIDENT, the fact that a majority of American 'ADULTS' voted this group of criminals back in, still blows way more than my mind.

Question: What EXACTLY would be the difference, amd how the hell could you tell???

:shrug:

[G_j]

76. anyone see "Yes Men"?

a couple of radical impostors infiltrated various conferences posing as reps for the WTO. They gave one outlandish presentation essentially justifying slavery and various abuses of third world labor forces to an audience of very highly educated 'adults' who sat there like a bunch of zombies and politely clapped at the end.

The group that actually challenged and told the "Yes Men" they were full of shit were college students in Plattsburgh NY.

Adults are highly over rated, jaded and arrogant. I ought to know, I am one.

[bloom]

136. that's a good point

I saw that movie and it is really weird to see the business people applaud the crazy suit (and the slavery arguments).


(I had seen the gold "suit" at an art gallery last year - but I didn't know what the story was - it makes a lot more sense now :) ).

[blondeatlast]

86. I'd like to say yes, but since the voting age was lowered to

accommodate the draft age... not on your life.

Sorry, young DUers, but your lives and especially my own son's are the reason I have to say no.

[ChemEng]

88. Not only no, but hell no! n/t

[paineinthearse]

89. I presume everyone is now familiar with the California proposal?

A pending assembly bill grants partial votes for 15-17yo's. Theory is to get kids involved at an earlier age.

15yo = 1/4 vote
16yo = 1/2 vote
17yo = 3/4 vote
18yo = full vote

========================

PitA's corrolary. One is only accorded a full vote if their IQ is 100. Anything less or more is subtracted or added.

For example, if you are a genious with an IQ of 160, you get 1.6 votes; if you are an idiot with an IQ of 70, you get 0.7 vote.

[Poppyseedman]

103. Heck, just reenact the poll tax

based on your IQ.

It's about the same thing. I know lots of people who easily can be above 100 on an IQ test.

Most I wouldn't let them watch my dog, let alone give them more than a single vote

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

96. OK I've considered the pros and cons and I say YES

Another DU'er asked me to post this poll since they are not a donor and could not..so I did.

I didn't have any firm opinion one way or the other. As I began to read people's reasons for NOT letting a 16 year old vote, I began to consider that those reasons did not seem valid to me. I know kids with far better attention spans when it comes to world events than many adults...some I even work with.

I also know that what happpens today can RADICALLY alter reality for a 16 year old kid two years from now. We signed contracts last November with our votes that are binding for THEIR livelihoods.

We also, as a society, have no trouble prosecuting a 16 year old for a crime as if they were 18. If they can be held responsible and felt to have enough reasoning skills to consider the consequences of their crimes, I think we can trust them with their vote.

My ONLY concern with letting 16 year olds vote is that their PARENTs can conceivably MAKE them vote a certain way.

[G_j]

110. yea!

I'm so glad you put your two cents in, and I agree.
I didn't take interest in this thread at first, but when I clicked on it and read it I found it to be VERY revealing.
I was surprised and a bit disheartened at some of the attitudes toward 16 yr olds.

jeez, we adults have done such a brilliant and responsible job with our world ... NOT!

[ultraist]

97. Should our children be made to feel responsible for the gov and wars?

What if some kid voted for Bush just to be cool like his friends (peer pressure is a major force in kids' lives) and Bush turned around and bombed a country for no reason? What kind of guilt might this kid have?

This is too much responsibility to put onto a 16 year old's shoulders. I wouldn't want my 16 to have to deal with this. 18 is when they are legally an adult and gain adult rights and responsibilities. 2 years can make a major difference in maturity at that age.

[alittlelark]

100. 2/3 of those in that age bracket, that I know, are VERY aware.

And I am confident that they would 'choose well'.

[ultraist]

101. Likely MORE than 2/3 of the 18 year olds you know would choose well then

Not everyone learns second order moral reasoning skills, but the point is, most 16 year olds aren't even capable. Brain and psychologial development are sequential and age related.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

116. Well slightly more than half of eligible, participating voting age adults

have made choices just as bad. Hell..at least kids CONSIDER the future when they vote.

I agree about development, BUT..a young male brain isn't done developing until he is approximately 22 years old...but we'll let that same kid serve in the military at 18

[RedCappedBandit]

104. If there were a draft in Bush's second term..

I would be eligible, even though I was not allowed to vote. Either change the way voting age works, or change it so that people under voting age at the time of the election are not eligible for draft :|

This conversation is ridiculous IMO, the issues affect me (17) as much as the rest of you, why shouldn't I be able to vote? You might say that younger people are ignorant, but seeing as how 51% of the country voted for Bush, i'd say ignorance is irrelevant when it comes to being able to vote :)

[shadowknows69]

106. It's always a 16 years old's future that we vote for. Why not?

besides to see some of the older, more hopelessly out of touch politicians pandering to the younger vote has too much potential for good laughs.

[latteromden]

107. As much as I hate it (I'm 15 years old), I don't think so.

Yes, I'm far more informed than most adults of voting age that I know. My parents have adopted my views (my dad voted for Bush in 2000, Kerry in 2004, citing "everything you've told me"), as opposed to vice versa. However, most of my classmates, on the other hand, don't give a damn about politics, who's running the country, or even the history of our government (I carry a copy of the Constitution around with me everywhere - good lord, do they ever think it's weird).

I just have to say no, the voting age should not be lowered to 16. BUT, be careful, some of you, with what you say - claiming that no 16-year-olds are "capable" of the critical thinking necessary to vote or do not have the "life experience" is risky. I'm more than likely an exception to the rule (and I see "the rule" every day), but I am lacking in neither capability nor life experience, and it's not true that "nobody" under 18 is qualified to vote.

[ultraist]

109. Yes, you are exceptional

Definitely, an exception to the rule.

To clarify my comments, I didn't say that NO 16 y old is capable, I said that fewer are capable compared to 18 year olds. Development is sequential (opposed to happening in rigid stages) so we can only make generalities based on the majority (using stats on a bell curve).

Great response!

[Jack_DeLeon]

111. Not unless you want to make someone legally an adult at 16...

IMO someone should completely considered legally an adult at 18, and they should recieve all rights and priviledges there of. Such as being able to drink and whatnot.

Personally I would have no problem with moving all that down to 16, however I would not agree with it if you just wanted to give the right to vote to 16 year olds.

It should be all or nothing.

[OneBlueSky]

115. given the complete ignorance of world and national affairs . . .

displayed by most Americans, we might be better off raising it to 35 . . .

[JackRiddler]

149. Think about this...

You think a 55-year-old is more likely to be a winner on Jeopardy, or find Kuwait on a map?

[mcscajun]

125. I wonder: are 16-year-olds ready to serve on juries?

'cause the voting rolls are where the juror pool comes from.

And even if they are ready, mentally, emotionally, and otherwise, are they and their families ready to allow 16-year-olds to interrupt their schooling and social lives for weeks, perhaps months at a time to serve?

Something else to think about; every right has some ancillary responsiblities.

[Dob Bole]

126. Yes...they work, pay taxes, drive on public roads...

and they're on our side. Too bad so many people on DU think they're the most superior intelligent life forms.

[SlackJawedYokel]

127. There are already enough uninformed/apathetic voters

We don't need more of them.

Cletus

[Siyahamba]

128. Sadly, not many young people even bother to vote.

I don't know if many would take advantage of this opportunity. I know I wanted to vote since I was in elementary school, though , so this would help young people who actually want to vote.

[DrGonzoLives]

132. Eh

Don't care, the youth vote would probably still stay right about where it is.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

133. You're cute when you're ambivalent

:hi:

[dpbrown]

134. Drinking, too

:toast:

[Fleshdancer]

137. I have the easiest solution to this:

If a child has been sentenced as an adult for a crime, then kids his/her age should be able to vote. What age does that bring the voting age down to now? 14? 12???

[Lilith Velkor]

153. ding ding ding!

That would make the voting age 12. I'm all for that.

[formerrepuke]

138. There's already been a movie about this.

"Wild in the Streets".. from about 1968. the voting age is lowered to 14, and a rock-star is elected president.. Everything goes to hell-in-a-handbasket.

[JackRiddler]

145. I think I saw the sequel in 1980...

in which the geriatric ward was enfranchised and elected a 1950s b-movie "buddy" actor in a landslide. Everything went to hell in a handbasket, but nearly everyone thought it was great.

Then there was this great sci-fi remake in 2004, which featured a foreign muscle hero actor most famous for playing a robot becoming governor of California.

Good thing they didn't let the Californian adults vote!*

(* notwithstanding that it may have been the Rise of the Machines that actually determined that one, not the human voters.)

[bobthedrummer]

139. Tony Blair has promised the youth of the UK that 16 year olds will vote.

Good old Tony Blair.

[beyurslf]

148. No.

[rbnyc]

150. I changed my mind. Would someone who would vote No, vote Yes for me?

I voted No because I think most teen-agers are essentially brain-damaged. This was a knee-jerk vote and I wish I'd thought it through. For one thing, most Americans act is though they're essentially brain-damaged.

More importantly, the earlier a person has experience voting, the more likley they are to vote regularly for the rest of their lives.

Sorry, I should have thought about it.

[CornField]

152. No, if we let them vote, the gov will be wanting to draft them at that age

eom

[Lilith Velkor]

154. It should be lowered to 12.

That's currently the age one can be tried as an adult.

[Misunderestimator]

156. And... then we'd have to lower the age to try someone for statutory rape

as well as lowering the age of the victim... Not that I don't agree with you on the age of trying as an adult... we shouldn't have different metrics for determining adulthood, especially in such serious matters.

[Codeblue]

157. No

Most 16 year olds have not formed a chesive political idea in their minds. They would vote liberal because their parents are liberal, or conservative because their parents are.

They don't really know what it means to be a liberal or what it is to be a conservative. They would base their voting issues on school issues like the dress code and other upsetting things that school impress upon students. I know. I'm still not very far removed from being in high school and wanting to vote just to change all the dumb high school rules.