Alaska Airlines now giving out prayers with dinner

[mondo joe]

My partner flew to and from Chicago yesterday.

With his dinner he received a little card with the Alaska Airline logo, a landscape and the following:

Give thanks to the Lord,
for He is good;
His love endures forever.

Psalm 107:1


I'm so disgusted I'm beside myself.

[Stop_the_War]

1. Alaskans in general probably have their brains frozen...

LOL

[Blue_In_AK]

36. HEY!!!!

My brain's not frozen, and for what it's worth, Alaska Airlines is based in Seattle.

[flamingyouth]

2. They always have

Susan Paynter has written about it in her P-I column. I'm a frequent flyer on Alaska so I've seen them for years. I usually just turn it upside down.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

21. Then I'll never fly that airline.

[John BigBootay]

40. Why is it that I, as an agnostic--

can be a happy frequent flyer with Alaska in spite of the fact that I have received dozens of these little messages, and some folks such as you are COMPLETELY put off by it?

The human mind is a strange and complicated organ...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. Well praying on an airline that cut corners in maintenance

thereby resulting in a crash probably isn't a bad idea.

[Jack_DeLeon]

54. LoL

I agree, a little prayer that the plane stay in one piece never hurts.

[Sugarbleus]

113. Yikes...LOL Good point! n/t

[Zomby Woof]

162. VERY TRUE

I worked with the sister of one of the flight attendants who died in that crash 5 years ago, and what that airline did to dodge and avoid compensation for the families is unforgiveable.

I can't stand them anyway. The 2 times I flew them were HORRIBLE. I thought I was going to be in a crash myself in one of them. Rude, nasty, and cheap. None of their behavior in the wake of that crash surprised me, based on my experiences. It was an easy decision to swear off them after that. I can get cheap flights from others.

They will NEVER get a dime from me again, and this is regardless of their dumbass proseletyzing.

I am not one to normally urge boycotts, but I will tell anyone who will listen, DO NOT FLY ALASKA AIRLINES.

[fudge stripe cookays]

Oh for God's sake.

I thought they were blue! What a way to alienate your major customer base.

They need some serious complaint letters clogging their mailboxes.

FSC

[Toots]

11. "Oh for God's sake"

Being "Blue" does not mean anti-God. There is nothing at all wrong with what they are doing. It isn't forced at all and for some it is very comforting. There are more people in america that believe in God than there are ones that do not. If the Government did this there would be room for complaint. Flying this day and time is very stressful for most. A prayer can be very welcome by some.

[wtmusic]

12. Assuming their passengers are Christian

might offend some. It would offend me. I don't look forward to being preached to on a damn airline flight.

[regnaD kciN]

109. YOU are assuming the "prayers" are Christian...

First of all, they're not prayers, they're Bible quotations. Second, they pick phrases that are generically theistic, not pushing a specific faith. (In other words, they speak of "God" the creator in general, not of Jesus or any Christian religious doctrine.) And they certainly don't "preach," if that means urge anyone to accept a specific dogma about sin, salvation, judgement, redemption, etc., etc.

In fact, I can't see the quotations Alaska provides as being offensive even to a die-hard deist. It reminds me of the way the Bible was used by deists such as the Founding Fathers (who, despite what the religious right would claim, were anything but fundamentailsts wanting to create a "Christian nation").

I think some people are just a little too sensitive on this subject. :eyes:

[forgethell]

124. How is it

being preached to?? It's printed. Discard it.

[manic expression]

14. For God's sake, indeed....

Being respectful of people's beliefs means that you don't blatantly cater to one religion and generalize everyone on your flights. That is what they are doing and it is a form of perverse discrimination. I'm glad you support that.

I could not care LESS if someone wants a Christian prayer to make their flight "less stressful". They could bring a Bible with them on the flight and not expect someone else to shove Christian dogma down everyone's throats.

This is patently disgusting.

[Jack_DeLeon]

55. For God's sake, why dont you fly a different airline...

if you dont like it.

The airline is privately owned I assume, they unlike government can pander to whatever religion they want. People who like that will use that airline, people who dont, wont. Let the market decide this.

[manic expression]

77. There is a lot to be said of respect

How about an airline which is one of the only options available to you starts handing out "Mein Kampf"? Would you like it if they had Muslim or Buddhist or any other religion's doctrine handed out to people? Private providers should have the decency NOT to do such a base act (you, however, have no such decency). This is especially true because there may be little choice given to an individual.

The people who take the flights have no idea which religion a certain airline caters to, and so it is unrealistic to think that people will decide not to use the airline. The market CAN'T decide this because while it is completely offensive, patronizing and wrong, it will have no effect in the patronage of the company (don't deny this hypothetically, because that is the way it is).

The government should do something about this and put a stop to it. If it does not, it is pandering to a religion through omission.

Maybe if you were a little less arrogant and disrespectful you might see things a bit more clearly...oh well.

[retnavyliberal]

88. The Government should do something?????

You want the Government, the same government you want to have nothing to do with religion, to tell a completely private organization to not do something that may offend some people. I hope you do not hold them to the same standards when people complain about a place like Hooters. If someone finds it exceeds the bounds of "decency" as you say, then the Government should step in and close them????

For the record, I think there should be more Hooters, right next door to my house.... with lots of big windows.... but I am just making a point. It would infringe on the Civil Rights of the company to tell them to not do this. Don't like the 700 club on TV, Turn on MTV. Don't want to be given a prayer card on Alaska Air? Fly on NorthWest Air.

Also the comparison between Mein Kampf and a prayer card is ridiculous.

[manic expression]

89. The people who are given these

pieces of scripture have no prior knowledge of them. The government SHOULD do something and tell the airline to either stop this practice or make sure everyone knows of this at the time of booking. Major news outlets are supposed to be fair (although they really aren't) to both sides of an issue, and the same should be applied here. At the VERY least, they should notify people about this when they purchase a ticket.

Flying NorthWest Air is not as simple as you say. Flight times, prices and other factors make it hard for someone to have a fair choice. There should be (at the very least, once again) choice intra-airline, instead of only inter-airline (i.e. prayers given only to consenting individuals).

The comparison is very valid. If it is A-OK for an airline to shove religion down people's throats, why not another viewpoint? If someone thinks it is acceptable for Christian philosophy be put in front of everyone and their respective beliefs, then they must also accept that if an airline wants to cater to the philosophies of the Nazis (for example) and shove that down people's throats, it is perfectly allowable as well. Hey, just change the channel, right?

[retnavyliberal]

90. Good point...

I accept the Nazi analogy. If I don't like it, I will just not read it. If I don't like the card, I will ball it up and throw it away or give it back to the flight attendant. It's a piece of paper, not a gun to the head. Now, if they were saying at 40,000 feet, "Repent or get the F&%$ off the plane", then I would have an issue.

Flight times, prices and other factors are just ... well... other factors in making your decision on what airline to fly. If this one is important to you, then weigh it accordingly.

[mondo joe]

99. That's a good argument to keep the confederate flag in some states

People can ignore it if they don't like it.

The flag is just one factor in deciding what state to live in.

[retnavyliberal]

111. Again, we seem to be having trouble seperating....

the public and private sectors, not to mention the difference between hate and oppression and peace.

Once again, I find myself with the need to say that we, the Democratic Party, are supposed to be the tolerant ones. There are so many real issues that deserve our full attention and yet we seem to get sucked into the quagmire of the mundane. The administration doesn't have to do its "look over here" routine. We do it to ourselves.

[mondo joe]

118. No, no trouble separating at all.

If the majority of a state want a confederate flag, that's their RIGHT isn't it?

Just like if a privately owned airline wants to give out prayer cards.

[tx_dem41]

122. I would agree with that. n/t

[QC]

112. False analogy.

Flying a flag over a government building amounts to a government endorsement of that flag. Alaska Airlines, however, is not a government. It is a private organization that is free to endorse whatever it likes. You are likewise perfectly free to patronize it or not.

If that card bothers you so much, then choose a different airline. That's simple enough, though it admittedly does lack the benefit of allowing one to stage public drama tantrums.

[mondo joe]

119. And the people of the state are free to endorse the flag they choose

Right?

[QC]

127. An airline is not a government entity.

Why is that so hard to understand?

[mondo joe]

136. I understand completely. Private Co's have rights, as do electorates

Private companies have rights -- airlines can give out prayer cards, FOX news can say what they like about Kerry's service in Viet Nam, Rush Limbaugh can say what he likes on his show.

Understood (though for some reason it's perfectly permissable on DU to complain about SOME things private entities do but not others).

Electorates also have rights - they can vote to use the confederate flag as their state flag.

I think all of the above SUCK, but I recognize they are within their rights.

[tx_dem41]

138. Yes, rights just suck when they don't go your way. n/t

[mondo joe]

141. No, rights don't suck. But just because it's within rights doesn't mean

No, rights don't suck. But just because it's within rights doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

My real question is why when on DU we complain about FOX, Rush, Ann Coulter, Bush, or anyone else doing things they have the RIGHT to do no one runs to their defense saying "but they have the RIGHT to do it" -

but on this issue, the airline's RIGHT appears to preempt them from any complaints.

[tx_dem41]

143. Why do you lump me in with what you think "everyone on DU" does? n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

107. As a progressive who's top issue is separation of church and state...

and also an agnostic, you are overreacting here.

A. The airline has nothing to do with the state, they give away whatever prayer tracts they want. Welcome to free speech.

B. The prayer is pretty generic.

C. A prayer tract speaking of peace, and Mien Kaumf are two entirely separate things, and you should be ashamed of yourself for making that comparison.

[tx_dem41]

121. I'm amazed how little people seem to know about the Constitution and...

Constitutional law surrounding the 1st Amendment. Alaska Airlines is a PRIVATE company. The 1st Amendment doesn't apply. So, this is strictly a free market issue. You have the choice to not fly Alaska Airlines. Another airline has the choice to follow this policy, create their own "prayer" cards based on any other faith or lack thereof, or (more smartly) don't do anything at all.

Any law that would allow the Government to force a company or a person to practice or NOT practice a particular religion is infringing on my civil liberties and would be flying in the face of the Constitution. If the Government was allowed to do what you are asking it to do, I think I would start looking for jobs overseas. BTW, in case you're wondering, I'm an Atheist.

[QC]

128. Hugo Black, the great liberal justice, put it best.

He said that the layman's opinion on the law is that what he likes is constitutional and what he doesn't like is unconstitutional.

[mondo joe]

137. So all the laymen's opinions on the Bush/Gore election are what?

[forgethell]

126. why not write

a letter to the airline, organize a boycott, write letters to the editor of your ocal newspaper. make a fuss. Why does the government need to get involved?

Then the airline, if enough people complain, will come around to your point of view and cease. Unless of course a counter-boycott is organized by Pat Robertson or somebody.

But at least you will have gotten your viewpoint out there without violating anybody's rights.

[0rganism]

155. Excuse me? The government should violate the first amendment?

This isn't a public school we're talking about here. It happens to be a private business. They are perfectly within their rights to hand out whatever the fuck they want to their customers, whether its "Mein Kampf" or the collected writings of Jerry Falwell. You are under absolutely no obligation to read it. If the practice loses them business, then that's their problem, not yours.

And it's certainly not our government's job to regulate that aspect of their business.

In any case, be careful what you wish for. If the current flavor of federal gov't were to intervene, it would probably be to make the prayers mandatory.

[Dervill Crow]

95. It doesn't say anything about Jesus.

God's pretty generic, for Pete's sake (or God's sake, if you prefer).

[forgethell]

125. It's not

a government service, is it? It's a private airline. They should be able to do as they want about this.

Some people don't like the blatant sexuality that sells almost everything in America. They get as offended by it as some people here do by references to Christianity. No one, including me, is suggesting that we cater to their sensitivities. But other people have the same rights as we do.

Me, I try not to get offended about anything that isn't physically violent. And I mean, in real life. I don't care how many people are slaughtered in a movie. I'm not always successful, but I try. I find this to be much less stressful than always looking for offense.

[fudge stripe cookays]

17. A prayer can be very welcome...

IF you're Christian and receive a Christian prayer. Blue businesses are ususally smart enough to realize they are successful among progressives when they don't preach at them.

They're not providing blessings for every Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian or other flavor out there. THAT is why this is offensive.

There is EVERYTHING wrong with what they are doing. It's insulting to anyone who isn't a Christian. What do the others do in case of a crash? Is it just "To hell with you, infidels" ?

People in other countries have begun to think that we are nuts here. They do not dicuss religion in polite company. It's considered someone's personal business, and it's not for everyone else to comment on or participate in.

I am agnostic. And if someone handed me this, I would assume they knew something about the plane I didn't. Whereupon, I would immediately disembark.

FSC

[geniph]

46. Don't immediately disembark!

they wait until you're in the middle of dinner, at 35,000 feet. It'd be cold out there. For a minute or two.

A couple of times, I've picked it out from my tray and handed it to the flight attendant, and said, "I really don't want this, thanks." But anymore, I just wad it up with the used napkin and other trash on my plate. It's a minor enough annoyance.

[fudge stripe cookays]

52. Bwa ha!

You very funny, geni. I've never flown Alaska, so I have never encountered this situation before.

George Carlin made some remark once...about the captain saying something about getting "on" the plane.

George was typically annoyed, saying "Let Evel Knievel got ON the plane. I'm going to follow the captain. He seems to know WHERE to sit!"

FSC

[Sugarbleus]

115. Jack Daniels and/or Valium can be very comforting. ;o) eom

[mondo joe]

19. How comforting do you think it is for non christians?

[mwb970]

22. Um, but it's not really "Christian", is it?

Psalms is in the Old Testament.

[manic expression]

25. It is actually Christian, sorry

Even if you want to split hairs, it is Judeo-Christian, therefore it is exclusive to those religions. Thus, it excludes people of all other beliefs. Therefore, it has the exact same disgusting effect.

Nice try though.

[mondo joe]

27. The term "old testament" is Christian itself.

[Walt Starr]

34. It sure as HELL is not an invocation of The Goddess

I find anything associated with the WAR GOD, Yahweh, offensive!

[Dervill Crow]

97. Very true, but

As long as they're not trying to tell me their way is the only way, I'm fine with anyone invoking any deity or pantheon they like. Isn't that what democracy is all about?

Blessed be and shalom!

[Behind the Aegis]

37. Nothing wrong, indeed

IF this is true, then perhaps they can print up the following prayer that I say on flights and pass them out:

Hermes, hear my plea.
See us safely there,
And safely back again.
This is my will,
So mote it be.

I wonder if he would see a "news" story about this practice then?

"Flying this day and time is very stressful for most. A prayer can be very welcome by some." And like luggage, you should bring your own prayers!

[LibertyLover]

58. Hermes

My favorite God to invoke when flying. I also ask that Isis, with Her strong wings bear me safely to my destination.

[Behind the Aegis]

69. Very cool!

I usually ask Zeus or higher up to hold back the winds! I HATE TURBULENCE! I have to fly this weekend to RI and then back to OK on Tuesday...I hate the bumps, it really works my nerves. I usually get off a plane looking like I just took a shower!

[DefenseLawyer]

160. Isn't forced on you?

You are locked in a metal box at 30,000 feet. A captive audience if there ever was one, waiting there as we do for our ration of peanuts. It is not "anti-god" not to want to be preached to. There is a place for that, they call it church. Do they have the right to do it, sure. But it's annoying to people like myself that don't push our religion or lack thereof on others and appreciate the same.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

63. They're 45% Blue. Aloha Air is Blue.

[regnaD kciN]

110. "Your major customer base"...LOL!

What a way to alienate your major customer base.

I hate to drop this on you, but most Americans -- even most Democrats!!! -- believe in God. I sincerely doubt that they would be offended by a generic, ecumenical Bible quote.

When it comes to appealing to the public, or just appealing to Democrats as a whole for that matter, I'd say knee-jerk anti-religious paranoid rants such as I'm seeing here will do a whole lot more to "alienate your major customer base" than anything Alaska is doing.

:eyes:

[tx_dem41]

4. It might not be good business...

but they have every right to do this. We should write letters to them to at least notify them that not everyone supports this.

Would love to see some story in the news on this.

[immoderate]

5. Somethinng unnerving about airlines promoting prayer.

--IMM

[Binka]

47. Unnerving How About Creepy?

If I feel the need to invoke GAWD while flying I will do it in the privacy of my own seat. This shit is just fucking shit. The fascist crap is seeping folks. And it is getting deep.

[alphadog]

62. It's also called

a first amendment right in some circles. I thought we supported that amendment.

[mondo joe]

66. FOX News, Rush and more exercise First Amendment rights

Just because it's a first amendment right doesn't mean it's not creepy.

[skypilot]

6. And what a stupid fucking idea...

...to give prayers to people on an airplane. It's almost like saying "We are such a shitty airline that you might just need this..."

[ladjf]

7. Considering their past record of poor maintenance,

perhaps they feel as though the passengers might need some praying.

[ClintonTyree]

8. I'd pray if I had to fly Alaska Airlines too.....................

not the best safety record.

But getting to your REAL point, they're opening themselves up for a law suit. Not a class action law suit mind you, nobody can do that anymore.

I'd tell you partner to contact A.A. and raise hell. At the very least he'll get a free airline ticket, at the most, maybe they'll stop this bullshit altogether.

That is such total bullshit. What the hell gives them the right to do that? Certainly not the Constitution.

[retnavyliberal]

91. in fact it is the Constitution that gives them the right. n/t

[regnaD kciN]

117. "Not the best safety record"...?????

From my recollection, they've had a grand total of one accident in the last forty-one years. Not exactly a bad safety record, if you ask me.

[tx_dem41]

123. What exactly would you base this lawsuit on?

Explain how this action by Alaska Airlines is counter to the 1st Amendment.

[asthmaticeog]

9. "Now?"

David Cross did a joke about that on a TV special years ago, so it'd seem to me to have been going on for quite ahile now.

"Hmmm, I don't remember ordering the Christian sandwich..."

[Zhade]

57. "...because I definitely would have ordered the Buddhist pasta."

Classic Cross. '95 HBO special. His "It's Not Funny" album from last year ROCKS!

[EVDebs]

10. Prayer cards are a good sign, if you ask me. Airlines in general

are facing tough times. Since the Flight 261 crash with the horizontal stabilizer problems, Alaska Air has to keep up its maintenance and books with the FAA and NTSB probing them.

The families of crash victims ended up suing FAA etc 'the government' for failing to do oversight of Alaska Air.

If prayer cards keep the airline flying SAFELY, then may those prayers be answered !

[wtmusic]

13. On a wing and a prayer?

Personally, I'd rather have them spend the money they spent printing up those cute little cards taking one more look at the condition of their horizontal stabilizers...

[Sugarbleus]

114. Oh Yikes!.....I forgot about that event. *shudder*

After reading through this thread, my resolve to never fly is reinforced, thank you very much..

I give thanks that I never have a need to travel on ANY airplane. Amen.

[fudge stripe cookays]

18. Yes and just think

of the printing costs for those cards that could have been used for another mechanic or another safety check, eh?

:eyes:
FSC

[mondo joe]

20. If you're counting on prayer to make flight safe you don't need

If you're counting on prayer to make flight safe you don't need pilots or security or maintenance.

[amazona]

15. Good Lord, that's scary!!!

The last thing I want is to be on an airline that thinks I better get right with God.

Why don't you write to corporate about this? I'll bet some folks upstairs would like to know about pax getting their pants scared off with stuff like this. Some people would take it as a hint that the crew doesn't have much faith that the plane will get to the destination.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[NYC Liberal]

16. If I want to pray, I don't need the airline to help me!

I can do it myself, thank you very much.

[ernstbass]

23. WTF?

[Zenlitened]

24. NTSB Report on Alaska Airlines Flight 261

Executive Summary: On January 31, 2000, about 1621 Pacific standard time, Alaska Airlines, Inc., flight 261, a McDonnell Douglas MD-83, N963AS, crashed into the Pacific Ocean about 2.7 miles north of Anacapa Island, California. The 2 pilots, 3 cabin crewmembers, and 83 passengers on board were killed, and the airplane was destroyed by impact forces. Flight 261 was operating as a scheduled international passenger flight under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121 from Lic Gustavo Diaz Ordaz International Airport, Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, to Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, Seattle, Washington, with an intermediate stop planned at San Francisco International Airport, San Francisco, California. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated on an instrument flight rules flight plan.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was a loss of airplane pitch control resulting from the in-flight failure of the horizontal stabilizer trim system jackscrew assembly’s acme nut threads. The thread failure was caused by excessive wear resulting from Alaska Airlines’ insufficient lubrication of the jackscrew assembly.

Contributing to the accident were Alaska Airlines’ extended lubrication interval and the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) approval of that extension, which increased the likelihood that a missed or inadequate lubrication would result in excessive wear of the acme nut threads, and Alaska Airlines’ extended end play check interval and the FAA’s approval of that extension, which allowed the excessive wear of the acme nut threads to progress to failure without the opportunity for detection. Also contributing to the accident was the absence on the McDonnell Douglas MD-80 of a fail-safe mechanism to prevent the catastrophic effects of total acme nut thread loss.

The safety issues discussed in this report include lubrication and inspection of the jackscrew assembly, extension of lubrication and end play check intervals, jackscrew assembly overhaul procedures, the design and certification of the MD-80 horizontal stabilizer trim control system, Alaska Airlines’ maintenance program, and FAA oversight of Alaska Airlines. Safety recommendations are addressed to the FAA.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2002/AAR0201.htm

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[GoSolar]

29. LOL! Good one!

"Don't let the doorknob hit you where evolution split you"

No plans to fly Alaska Air - ever...

[fudge stripe cookays]

30. My heart bleeds for you.

Really.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. OK...the strategy should be to have the Hare Krishnas sue to get

their scripture in AA's lunches, Buddhists sue to get theirs, Scientologists sue to get and L ROn Hubbard quote thrown in the lunches and Satanists sue to get theri scriptures thrown in.

:D that would handle it :evilgrin:

[DU GrovelBot]

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[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. Strategy #2: WHY does Alaska Airlines want you to pary on their flights?

Is there something they aren't telling us about their airplane maintenance that a prayer could possibly help?

Aren't Psalms the most popular bible verses at funerals???

[Capn Sunshine]

42. Keep all passengers in a state of readiness to meet their maker

you know, CYA
in case the maintenance budget for aileron screws is cut a little too much.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. The same people who claim evolution is just a theory

will find out that even though gravity is just a theory too...

[Zenlitened]

51. Hee hee hee!

"Pray harder... we're losing altitude!"

:D

[formerrepuke]

38. I suddenly get very religious every time I board an airplane n/t

[flygal]

39. I used to work for Alaska

and I only had one serious complaint. I never cared for them, but the founder was a very religious man and after he sold the airline he went off on missions. I understand he was a decent guy and the airline for some reason keeps up the tradition.

I personally feel they could get rid of them as an unnecessary cost - not to mention it seems like a "we're all going down together" kind of thing. I think there are some f/a's trying hard to get rid of them. Alaska did have more than it's fair share of repuggy f/a's.

[Capn Sunshine]

41. They have always done this

Really religious owners.

No skin off my nose. Just don't crash is what I ask from an airline.
The rest is gravy to me.

[Lisa]

43. hey, as long as they include the complimentary piece of chocolate ...

... as a concession to MY personal beliefs.

They've been this for years -- I recall getting one when I flew with them in the early 1990s.

[ck4829]

44. I have no problem with prayers. It's just that...

I picture people praying on an airplane only if they believe something bad is going to happen.

[geniph]

45. They've been doing that for decades

I throw it with the rest of the dinner trash. Other than that minor irritation, they're a good airline, so what the hell. At least they don't preach at us over the PA.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. I flew Alaska a lot when I lived on the West Coast

because I could get Northwest frequent flyer miles without having to endure a Northwest flight.

Alaska had better seat pitch and better inflight service. Until a few years ago, you not only got real food but a little bottle of wine with dinner.

When I was a kid, some restaurants used to have prayers on their place mats, in versions for Protestants, Catholics, and Jews. (There weren't a lot of Muslims around then.) When I saw Alaska's place mats, I just thought, "How retro."

[Jack_DeLeon]

53. Personally...

I think when flying commercially a little prayer that the plane stay in one piece during flight is probably a good thing.

Anyways onto the real topic, I'm disgusted that you are disgusted. The Airline is presumably a private corporation, its not owned by the government therefore there is nothing to restrict it from promoting prayer. There is no need for seperation of church and state because the Airline is not the state.

[mondo joe]

59. I'm disgusted that you're disgusted that I'm disgusted

"I'm disgusted that you are disgusted. The Airline is presumably a private corporation, its not owned by the government therefore there is nothing to restrict it from promoting prayer."

---------------------------------------------------------------------

So only illegal things are disgusting?

By your rationale most things Bush, the GOP and free republic do should not be considered offensive or disgusting because MOST of what they do is legal.

[Jack_DeLeon]

67. I'm digusted by people who are against freedom of religion..

[mondo joe]

68. How do you feel about other First Amendment freedoms?

How are you on freedom of speech?

[Jack_DeLeon]

73. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion...

and everyone else is entitled to thier opinion of anyone elses opinion.

[mondo joe]

79. So when people complain about Rush or FOX or Barbara Bush

Do you run to their defense telling those who criticize them that you support the first amendment?

[Jack_DeLeon]

104. No...

I only complain about people who complain about things that I think its stupid to complain about.

[mondo joe]

120. So your earlier comments about RIGHTS were bs

Earlier you said it was about rights.

Now you say its only about things you think are stupid to complain about.

Make up your mind, and your double standard.

[Jack_DeLeon]

146. No, I'm not the hypocrite here.

I support freedom of religion. I've made no statement saying that I'm against that.

I've also said that everyone is entitled to thier opinion, and everyone else is entitled to thier opinion of other people's opinions.

Its my opinion that your complaint is stupid.

[DrWeird]

70. How would you feel if it were a muslim prayer?

When getting on an airplane?

[Jack_DeLeon]

72. I'd probably...

not choose to frequent an airline that is targeting itself torwards customers of the Muslim faith however I'd not have anything against them for doing so, its thier right and thier choice to do that if they want.

If I did decide to or had to get a flight on such an airline I certainly wouldnt bitch and moan about it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

76. Why? Are Muslims the boogeymen?

[manic expression]

78. What if....

let's just say...I dunno...you didn't really have another viable choice (you know, money and all that stuff that doesn't matter)? Or what if you were given this during the flight, and, having no previous knowledge, were offended, and could do nothing about it (being on the flight and all)?

Many people will not know about this before hand and be offended by it, giving them no way to make a choice in the first place. Sorry, that is wrong.

[Jack_DeLeon]

105. If I didnt have another viable choice...

then why would I complain about someone giving a me a choice (being able to fly or not) as opposed to no choice (not being able to fly at all).

Well as for not having previous nowledge, well then its just a lesson learned. I'm not so thin skinned that getting a piece of paper that I dont agree with will just completely ruin my whole outlook on life.

I'm sorry but I think people who get offended over trivial shit are stupid.

[mondo joe]

87. Why not fly that airline? Can't you ignore the prayer?

What's the problem with it?

[Jack_DeLeon]

106. If I had to...

I could.

It certainly wouldnt kill me if it was the only flight, or the only flight that I could afford, or if I just really wanted to save money and they were on sale.

All things being equal I would prefer the one that I'm most comfortable with.

Then again all things being equal I would prefer not to fly at all. I prefer car or bus.

[Cats Against Frist]

92. You can be disgusted without saying they should stop

I'm with you on letting the market decide -- as I am on television indecency, gambling, drugs, prostitution, and a whole host of other things.


But, the right to be disgusted is just as protected as the right to hand out some stupid piece of paper, making overtures to the material equivalent of Santa Clause.

I'm disgusted about the prayer - that said, they should be able to do what they want. And people should fly or not fly with them, depending on their convictions.

[matt819]

56. Good thing I don't fly in Alaska

I used to fly quite a bit on airlines in Islamic countries. When they announced that the descent had started, they would say, "Insh'allah we shall soon be landing." Insh'allah means "God wiling," and I used to think to myself, golly I hope there's more to it that God's will that we would soon be landing.

In any case, these were Islamic countries, and this was their way. No problem with that.

This Alaskan Air thing is absurd.

[Jack_DeLeon]

74. Thats a nice bit of hypocrisy...

So in "Islamic countries," its okay, because its "their way," but in the United States where we supposidly have freedom of religion if an airline owner is particlarily religious and wants little bible scripture on his placemats, its not okay?

[manic expression]

80. No, think a little bit

What s/he was saying (I don't exactly agree with him/her) was that they are Islamic countries. America is NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE RELIGIOUS ALIGNMENT! Read the constitution!

Secondly, its not okay for Bible scripture to be on an airline, because this is exclusive toward one religion. I would be fine if it had scripture of all religions, but this is not the case.

[retnavyliberal]

94. Where in the Constitution is the phrase separation of church and business?

[alphadog]

60. Two words: private. company.

get over it.

[mondo joe]

61. More words: FOX news, private company

Are we only to take note of illegal activity now?

Will the complaints about FOX News cease because it is a private company?

[alphadog]

64. Complain all you want. Their number is...

Actually, I don't know their number. Their HQ is near my office, though. :-)

But above:
"But getting to your REAL point, they're opening themselves up for a law suit. Not a class action law suit mind you, nobody can do that anymore."

This is the kind of comment to which I was replying. Bitch all you want, and then fly another airline.

If we're belivers in the First Amendment, sorry, Charlie, but threatening a lawsuit when someone exercises their right to free speech is perhaps not the slippery slope we want to slide down. Say you file suit. Say you win the suit. Is this a precedent you really want to have set when Northwest Airlines starts providing customers with "Hillary in '08" napkins?

On edit: Oh, wait, that smiley above is not because their HQ is around the block. It's because I was making a lame joke.

[mondo joe]

65. Your reply, in the thread, was made to my post, not the one

Your reply, in the thread, was made to my post, not the one that suggested a class action lawsuit. Hence my response about FOX -- just one of many things complained about on DU practically every minute of the day, despite its private status.

[manic expression]

82. Do you really think they care about a few complaints?

First of all, people do not have any prior knowledge of this, and so they have no recourse before this happens. That in itself is at least irresponsible.

Secondly, having "Hilary in '08" on napkins is not right, either, and I would disagree with it. A provider of a certain service does not have the right to bombard someone with biased views. There needs to be some type of balance or fairness involved (at least).

[retnavyliberal]

96. The complaint is not the issue

Complain all you want. But some have asked for government intervention. We can not ask for intervention because something is distasteful. The people that want to be able to take away rights are on the other side of the isle.

[PA Democrat]

71. New slogan for Alaska Airlines

Travel with us. We fly on a wing and a prayer!

:scared:

[Bluebear]

75. What do you expect??? Barbara Bush is on their tail!!!!

[rinsd]

81. A prayer card??? talk about your mountains & molehills (nt)

[fresnobill314]

83. Suggested prayers for all airlines.

1.) Dear Lord, please don't let them lose my luggage.

2.) Dear Lord, please let the pilots be sober.

3.) Dear Lord, please don't let me hear the passenger next to me pray, "Allah akbar"



Bonus prayer heard from the United Airlines board room: "Dear Lord, please let the bankrupcy court grant us Chapter 11."

[jmowreader]

84. The little cards are necessary. I've eaten airline food from SeaTac.

Trust me on this, MREs are better.

I did not know Alaska had those little cards, but I really like Alaska's three-stage method of loading an airplane--everyone needing a little extra time, then everyone in first class or their special VIP club, then everyone else. I'd use them again.

[Cleita]

85. Boy has Alaska Airlines changed. When I last flew

on them from Seattle to Fairbanks in 1968, the airplane cabin was decorated like a Klondike Saloon, the flight attendants dressed as saloon hookers, the flight crew like sourdoughs and the passengers stored their guns in the overhead shelves.

[Deja Q]

86. God's a 'He'. Who looked?

And I can think of better Biblical quotes, but the neocons won't admit to them being real AND would likely revise the Bible to eliminate them totally...

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lonestarnot]

100. a fristacat

[paineinthearse]

101. Was the prayer card to ward off food poisoning? nt

[Bluebear]

102. PHOTO: Thank you Jesus for this Coke.

:shrug:

[Joe the Revelator]

108. Well now that i see the picture, its clear that this must be stopped!

:eyes:

[Ilsa]

103. If I was the marketing director, I think I'd try to get the

tradition set aside. I wouldn't want my customers to feel like they need to be praying while they are using my services, much less being locked up together where they can discuss it and compare notes for several hours.

As for it showing up in my plate, I don't think I'd care. I'd probably ignore it if I didn't feel compelled to practice the daily verse.

[Behind the Aegis]

116. Understandable

I would not be happy if this was given to me, either. I don't know I would be so angry that I was beside myself. But, I can relate. When my partner was in an accident, he was taken to the local hospital (the only one for almost 50 miles). In every room there was a cross. I found that offensive and had I been the patient, I would have ripped it off the wall and replaced it once I left. As it were, I put photos of our pets over it. Then, at 6:30 am, over the loudspeaker, came.."Good morning, let us all thank Jesus Christ for this beautiful day." Some lame ass prayer followed asking to thank, "Jesus Christ, Our Savior and Lord." I was pissed!!!! First, I had only just fallen asleep because I had been up all night being ignored by doctors because I was a "fag" and not a "wife" and I was beat. Secondly, I was pissed because who the Hell were they to wake everyone up (except the dead, dying ,and highly medicated) with a prayer like that?! It starts out with, what seems like little things, then they just keep pushing.

Want to solve the problem, ASK people if they would like the prayer card, the same way you ask if the person wants coffee, tea, or soda...you just don't give the person a soda. They are your GUEST, you want them to be comfortable and return to give you more money! Why not show a little respect and ask if they would like the prayer?!

For those who think this is "no big deal." That is your opinion, but those of us who don't want religion (of any type) shoved in our face, have our opinions too and they are just as valid!

[QC]

129. Was this a public hospital? n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

135. I believe so

But would it really matter, since it is the only one in town? After a gas explosion, one cannot afford to be picky and say..."please do not take me to a hospital where I will be preached to."

[Fescue4u]

172. The Republicans say the same thing..

"shoved in our face, have our opinions too and they are just as valid!"

about homosexuality.


How ironic.

[tx_dem41]

173. Ironic, indeed.

At least we don't criticize them for saying it. ;-)

[Behind the Aegis]

181. How is this irony?

To them "shoving it in their face" is asking for EQUAL rights. This was not asking for EQUAL anything, it was asserting one way over another. I have yet to meet a single gay person asserting being gay is superior to heterosexuality. I don't think asking not to have a prayer card presented to you at dinner on a flight is the same as asking a group not to exist or forgo civil rights. One is a request for respect of individual rights, the other is bigotry. Doesn't seem all that ironic to me.

[Fescue4u]

182. It is what it is.

Im not justifying what others say.

Im just saying that they say the same thing as the poster above does.

And thats why its ironic.

[The Straight Story]

130. Sheeeesh people, I mean really

Are you beliefs and life so frail that you get all rattled by a 'christian/jewish/philosophical fortune cookie'?

Good grief, everytime I go to a chinese buffet I get a cookie with the bill that has some saying from a book that was not the bible. Oh how I shudder.

I am sure I will convert soon through this immense fortune cookie pressure into a <insert whatever belief-philosophy in life you hold here>. Good grief the pressure is immense I feel so unable to function when hit with such a barrage of force on my psyche.

Honestly folks, I don't mind the diversity life throws at me whether atheist, agnostic, religious of any persuasion, or even if the meal came with an advertisement for smokes.

[mondo joe]

139. I don't think it's any worse than an airline giving out confederate flags

After all, shouldn't people just be okay with that too?

[Jack_DeLeon]

147. I agree....

there would be nothing wrong with an airline catering to people who consider themselves Southerners.

I personally dont think it would be profitable, if it were it would have proably happened already.

However there would be nothing wrong if someone wanted to try.

[MIS_UNDER_ESTIMATED]

131. I looked at their website......

and didn't find any mention of these prayers being a part of the meal. They should at least let it be known that this is a practice of theirs. I would be highly pissed if I had bought a ticket from their company, and didn't know until I was effectively "held captive" in flight, that I would be proselytized to without my consent. At that point, I couldn't just leave or "choose" to fly with another airline....they've got me. Now that I know that they do this, I will not fly with them unless they change this practice. It would make me feel uncomfortable, and as a paying customer, why should I be made to feel uncomfortable unnecessarily? Don't they know that this would alienate some of their customer base?

If the pilot and whole crew were also religious zealots, who's to say that if the plane started going down, that they thought it was "god's will?" Or what if there are potential terrorists on board, and this "prayer" is the last straw that sets them off. Heck, if islamic terrorists know about this "christian" airline, they might even target it.

Nope....don't want any part of it!

[tx_dem41]

132. Then, as you stated, feel free to not fly them

And, enjoy your victimhood.

I also hope you don't go to Chinese restaurants where you are also "proselytized at" through those Confucianistic forture cookie slips of paper. The absolute gall of those restaurant owners! Harrumph!

[MIS_UNDER_ESTIMATED]

133. How do you even compare the two?

Then, as you stated, feel free to not fly them and, enjoy your victimhood.

I also hope you don't go to Chinese restaurants where you are also "proselytized at" through those Confucianistic forture cookie slips of paper. The absolute gall of those restaurant owners! Harrumph!

Every time I've eaten a fortune cookie, it has never said to "praise Confucius" or "give thanks to Confucius." My fortunes alway say that I will come into good fortune or find happiness, etc. Anyway, fortune cookies are an American invention. They are not a Chinese religious proselytizing tool. "Confucius (didn't) say"....the messages inserted into the cookies. Mostly, students, retirees, and other such workers are paid to develop the messages for the cookies.

[tx_dem41]

134. So you would have no problem if Alaska Airline just distributed

a message that a student or retiree wrote that said "Bless you"?

[mondo joe]

140. Remember to say the same to people who complain about FOX

"Feel free not to watch it".

Funny how SO many things are complained about on DU, but if it involves shoving religion in people's faces it's no big deal.

[tx_dem41]

142. That's what I tell them re: Fox...after telling them to complain to Fox...

..and advertisers (which is exactly what I said re: Alaska Airlines in my initial post on this thread).

[Behind the Aegis]

145. Trump card

I agree with what you have said. What it comes down to is, even with progressives/democrats/liberals, everyone should have equal rights, but when religion is involved or raised as an issue, suddenly, the tenet "some are more equal than others" rears its ugly head!

[mondo joe]

149. Wonder how many would be up in arms if they gave out Confederate flags

Wonder how many would be up in arms if they gave out Confederate flags, Pro Life pamphlets or Vote W buttons.

[Bluebear]

156. Don't give Delta any ideas!

[gollygee]

144. It seems kind of odd

Isn't prayer a personal thing? Even if they were to assume everyone was a Christian and everyone prayed, why would they think everyone would want that particular prayer?

It's just so public for something so personal. It would seem equally odd if they'd handed out a card suggesting a sexual position. It just isn't the kind of thing you talk to strangers about IMO.

[Bluebear]

150. Anyone remember that pilot asking all Christians to raise their hands?

It wasn't on Alaska, rather American but it was not too long after 9/11. He asked people to look at the people sitting around them, then for the Christians to raise their hands. The pilot asked non-Christians passengers to "use their time wisely!" and talk to Christians about their Jesus during the flight.

Some people thought they were being hijacked, literally and figuratively.

[democracyindanger]

148. Jeebus. Lighten up.

Alaska has ALWAYS done it. And despite the lies being spread in this thread, Alaska is one of the best domestic airlines operating. If it bothers you so much, turn the card over.

[mondo joe]

151. Remember that advice next time you're troubled by Ann Coulter, FOX, or

Remember that advice next time you're troubled by Ann Coulter, FOX, or any other neocon. Just turn the page, or the channel.

[democracyindanger]

152. I already do.

What that has to do with something that a private airline has been doing long before the neocon regime existed escapes me, but I'm sure you feel like you've made some important point. Is it that every Christian is a neocon? Jeez, somebody tell Jimmy Carter.

[Logansquare]

153. In N Out Burger has biblical scripture citation numbers on their wrappers

and cups. No actually scripture, just a tiny "John 3:19" or whatever. Thing is I hear that they really are good employers, and use non-factory farmed beef. As long as they act like *real* Christians, I can ignore the prosylitizing.

[gollygee]

157. We have a chicken place that does that around here

and there's a farm that sells eggs at the grocery store that puts a jesus fish on the egg cartons.

There's a line somwhere between saying, "Hey, I'm a Christian!" and "I want you to pray!" I don't mind a business telling me it's run by Christians, but I'd be annoyed at being given a prayer with my meal that is obviously designed so I will read it and pray at my meal. One is stating their beliefs, the other is trying to influence my beliefs.

[Logansquare]

163. I agree--it's an important distinction n/t

[MIS_UNDER_ESTIMATED]

154. Need to make it known up front ........

What if McDonald's starting including condoms in their happy meals? You didn't realize until after you bought it and brought it home, when your son asked you about the "slippery balloon" toy inside. Wouldn't you be a little disturbed by this? Sure, it's a business and they can do what they want, right? No one is forcing you to purchase their food. But hasn't the harm already been done? You didn't find out about this extra "prize" until after you purchased the meal.

Sure, it's just a piece of latex that you can ignore and throw away....what's the big deal? Also, the fact that they are trying to "spread the message" about the importance of preventing the spread of sexual diseases and pregnancy is just a public service, right? This is a good message to learn at any age.;-)
===========================
It's just the fact that you are "force fed" a "message" that you didn't ask for, didn't pay for, weren't expecting, and don't agree with....that is the problem.

[The Straight Story]

158. Kind of like that gay flag I see around at times....

It's just the fact that you are "force fed" a "message" that you didn't ask for, didn't pay for, weren't expecting, and don't agree with....that is the problem.

Everything from advertising - from bill boards to magazines, 'force feeds' us messages we are not choosing to engage in seeing.

I just don't get the uproar over this....

[Bluebear]

159. The gay flag is force feeding you a message?

What is seeing that flag force feeding you?

[The Straight Story]

165. Does it matter? We all interpret things differently

That bible verse can be seen many ways by many people. Some people are terribly offended by what it represents, others just shrug it off.

[Bluebear]

166. Are you offended by the gay flag?

Just curious, as you brought it up.

[The Straight Story]

168. Certainly Not

Been around gay people much of my life and see the flag almost on a daily basis. I do know some who don't like it as they see it as promoting something, but to me I see it as people celebrating something.

And what does it mean to be 'offended'? I could see someone with a conferderate flag on their truck, a nazi flag, quotes from mein kampf on their bumper sticker, and so on and it won't bother me. Same with airlines and little cards. Now if it had a quote about wanting to kill people I might worry some about the person who ordered them and put them out :) but I am really hard to offend.

I have taken long trips across country in the car with my atheist niece, my best friend (who is gay and has plenty of flags), he and his lover, and my punk loving nephew. We stayed in hotels with bibles, some without, ate dinner at places that have scriptures here and there, and even went to a pagan/gay ritual to bless the earth at a public place in downtown Columbus (on, gasp, government land).

We are a diverse people and that diversity is shown in our lives from little cards with john 3:16 on them to watchtower mags in the bathroom of a business (the owner was a jehovah's witness) to gay people with little flags in their business windows or work cubes.

I like the diversity myself, and I sure don't mind when a business owner projects their beliefs in their business (and I recall to the one stop shop I used to go to with a lot of hindu statues about, thought it was cool).

It's a melting pot of ideas, faiths, philosophies, and political ideologies. If I cannot handle seeing it then maybe the problem is me...

[MIS_UNDER_ESTIMATED]

161. Christian "advertising" = proselytizing

Everything from advertising - from bill boards to magazines, 'force feeds' us messages we are not choosing to engage in seeing.

I just don't get the uproar over this....

So you're equating it to "advertising?" Alaskan Airlines is just "advertising" for Christ? I guess that's another word for it....

[ken-in-seattle]

164. leave this on the next flight you take...

[The Straight Story]

167. Did it mention christ? I must have missed that....(n/t)

[Behind the Aegis]

169. Big difference!!!

The flag is NOT being given to you on your flight, as you walk into a store, etc. This is apples and oranges! It really is not that big of an uproar, just people saying..."hey, were glad you love your religion, but respect mine (or lack thereof) and don't peddle your beliefs to me!" No biggie!

[alphafemale]

170. JUST GIVE THE CARD BACK!

Say "no thank you."

BTW this is Race4Peace

[MIS_UNDER_ESTIMATED]

177. I suppose there would be no outcry by theists

if cards were handed out that said:

"Let us give thanks that there is no god. We realize that love can only be spread by our good deeds and good will, and mythical beliefs only serve to divide us."

[tx_dem41]

178. So, as an Atheist, I am now supposed to act like a Theist.

No thank you. That's one of the reasons I am an Atheist.

[MIS_UNDER_ESTIMATED]

180. I agree......

So, as an Atheist, I am now supposed to act like a Theist.

No thank you. That's one of the reasons I am an Atheist.

....I wouldn't stoop to that level either. However, why can't they show the same respect?

[Fescue4u]

171. Oh THE HORROR !

You should have demanded that the pilot turn the plane around and go back for home.

This is exactly why passengers should be given parachutes. The instant you saw that something you disagreed with, you could have bailed out of the airplane.

Its ridiculous that a government ran airline is recognizing a religion...oh wait.

hmmm

Frankly, i can't imagine being so thinned skinned that this bothers me. If it did, I would lead a horrible life because that would mean Im getting upset a dozen times a day.

[QC]

176. "that would mean Im getting upset a dozen times a day"

Some people apparently enjoy the high drama of being offended, disgusted, appalled, shocked, horrified, and mortified a dozen times or more every day.

[inslee08]

174. It makes us look bad

It makes us (liberals) look bad when we get worked up over stuff like this, because it is so minor and that *very* few people would actually be offended my this.

So, aside from the fact that handing out prayers on a flight seems creepy/ironic/whatever, I have very little problem with it.

[tsuki]

175. I'd be worried about the maintenance if they're flying on a wing and

a prayer. :evilgrin:

[Endangered Specie]

179. I guess their safety record isn't so swell.

:shrug: