If, for one minute women would stop and listen, maybe just maybe we would

[northamericancitizen]

For too long women shut their mouths. For too long we followed the rules.

I am getting fucking tired of men or women trying to dictate who I can trust, who I can fuck based on those paradigms that became politically O.K in the 80s or 90s. Yes I was and still am a feminist. But like in any other profound belief in my life I was never blind sighted by ideas or concepts. A personal relationship cannot and should not be dictated by our political view of the world. It is a coward attitude to do so.

Today in February 2005 I say to my mom, sisters, friends etc. Shut up and trust my instincts. I heard all about the feminist side and you girls spoke so loud that I got the message. Can you admit that the guys too got the message? Can you get that we were all together to claim and demand our space? But what about them. The guys...I do not want to see them as the enemy anymore.

As a group, sorry guys but you bore me. Probably that you feel the same.

But as an individual I am sick and tired of being on my guards and try to decode any fucking mistake you can do. I love to be in your company. I love it when you show the your adolescent side.

I need your longing for an intimate relationship. I want to hear about your foolish and crazy teenage years.

Does it make any sense?

I know I talk too much, but fuck man, I am tired of that silent and systemic war between man and woman.

Can we start talking again. Can we start trusting each other again

I could be mistaking, but I do believe that the north american continent is in a position to influence the rest of the world. Mind you I don't want to discard the European. So, anyway, all of us who are privileged have a responsibility. Those of you who are interested and well informed about the political stuff.. well go ahead we will be there to support you.

Some others, like me are more obsessed and fascinated about the essence of human being and their relationship between each other.

I strongly believe that it is time to try to reconciled the females and the males. Can we do it?


Lise

[K-W]

1. The conflict between women and men is a generalization.

There is no conflict between having trusting relationships with the opposite sex and recognizing and trying to change the way society treats women unjustly.

You need not see the two as conflicting.

[northamericancitizen]

5. it is not , not a generalization!

I wish it would. Unfortunately I see it every day and everywhere. Sorry.

Take a deep breath distance yourself a bit and come back to tell us how that silent war is is affecting you.

With all my respect.

Lise

[MJP]

2. This is good...

That may not help but, it's good anyway.

Yes, we can do it.

Can there be men who are adolescent, foolish, crazy, and yet brave enough to make a difference is someone else's life? Can they earn trust and then keep it?

Can they be immature and responsible at the same time?

They are probably masculine, full of testosterone, yet in touch with "their feminine side" at the same time.

Yes, we can do it. But, we ARE all in this together.

[northamericancitizen]

6. "Can there be men who are foolish crazy, and yet brave enough to make

a difference in someone else's life?"

Why not! I demand the right to be a mature woman, a little girl, a provocative teenager, a teaser, a philosopher etc.

Why can't I give the same freedom to the men that come close to me?

Years ago I would have had many rational explanations about the fact that men are fundamentally immature.

Even if that attitude helped me and most women my age I don't think that we should go on.

The last few weeks I had that recurring idea: women and men have to start trusting each other again.

PS : It feels good to read that "we are all in this together". For me this the only way to be.

Lise

[ashmanonar]

3. indeed!

like class war, the gender war is intensifying: and only by learning to trust those of us opposite to us (the rich realizing the plight of the poor and learning to trust their judgement and not manipulating them, men and women working together for their common good and not cat-fighting about chauvinism and all the other bullshit that has existed for centures.)

it's time to learn to love again. to trust. to be friends, to be soulmates.

only then can society advance.

i don't think my little rant added anything to yours. just my personal view. well-spoken!

[northamericancitizen]

7. "Only then can society advance"

"Its time to learn to love again."

Man, how can't women my generation see that? There all so fucking disillusioned about men in general and relationship in particular.

Everything is a threat, every weakness or act of cowardliness is analyzed with a single point of view. I am exaggerating but not that much.

The universe is and always been a mix of positive and negative, male and female. We, as "thinking" beings put everything askew. Even thou there was legitimate reasons for it, now is time to find a way to complement each other again.

We, male and female need to have faith enough and reach out. There is no other way.

[ashmanonar]

14. you're absolutely right.

and welcome to du! :hi:

[smurfygirl]

4. In my house

the seat is always down on the toilet...
despite living with men, we seem to agree on the basic things.
:hurts:

[Igel]

19. In my house, the seat was always how the last user left it.

I'm the stay at home dad, and got tired of putting it down for no reason, just to lift it up later.

Now, the lid is always down, not just the seat. The pre-toddler just loves playing with water.

It's about to get worse. He learned how to life the lid. We're going to have to lock the seat down.

[readmoreoften]

8. yes, you straight people should get your shit together

heh-heh, just joking.

I am often amazed at the 'man-woman' antagonism thing. People forward these ridiculous jokes that purport to tell the ultimate differences between men and women.

Maybe I am biased because I don't sleep with men, but I enjoy their company and their opinions. I have as many, if not more, male friends (both gay and straight) than female friends.

I can't imagine being in love with someone and antagonistic towards them at the same time. My close friendships with males work because we don't relate as 'men' and 'women', we relate as people.

[northamericancitizen]

9. I am often amazed at the "man-woman" antagonism thing.

I often envied my gay friends. They don't have to deal with this.

Mind you, I asked my sister about the "power game" between 2 women. Naively I was thinking that it was not an issue.

She,(49) and my daughter (24) both basically hetero, chose to have close encounters with women once in a while so they could avoid that clash with an other human being. Both of them told me that even thou they chose to express their emotions and sexuality with an other woman they still had to be carefully about the stereotypes which are encrusted in our psyche.

[American Tragedy]

10. I don't know, Lise. I've wondered about that for the past two years.

It's interesting that you bring this up, because nobody ever wants to talk about this at all. The first serious debate on the subject that I ever observed was in the beginning of the movie Eyes Wide Shut.

I don't know how to explain it. I'm just not convinced that relationships are worth the emotional/sexual exploitation and humiliation that I've gone through every single goddamned time. The power struggles and constant second-guessing and pretending I don't care, it's too exhausting. I can't do it anymore. Others have somehow been able to bridge their differences, but I can't figure it out.

I wish someone had told me that it was like this when I was a kid. It would have saved me a lot of suffering.

[northamericancitizen]

12. "I can't figure it out"

I hear you American Tragedy. Ultimately you are the only one who can decide if it is worth it. Life may surprise you and put somebody in front of you and you won't care as much about the price to pay or the level of his "consciousness".




For one reason or an other when it comes to sentiment and/or emotions human beings are not equipped equally. Some breeze through it and some feel only the pain .


Others, like me, feel an excruciating pleasure in loosing ourself and becoming an "us" even for a few seconds.

As I went from one encounter to the other I learned to pace the moments where I felt fusionned with the other one. That meant being sure that I could go back inside me and that he or she did not have a life and death power over me.

I agree with you that it could be exhausting. Self-doubts, role playing etc. I stayed away from all that for a long time. In the last 6 or 8 weeks I did let myself enjoy the pleasure of sharing. Sharing tenderness, sex, seduction etc. It is not easy but I feel alive.

If I had not changed my perspective about men I would not had been opened to those pleasure.

I feel blessed to be able to let go.

One more time.

I wish I will be able to say those words till I am at least 100 years old: "Kiss me, again.

[Tsiyu]

23. These days I say it's not the man or the sex I fear

It's the mind fuck that always seems to come attached.

I have many male friends but I am celibate and single and mostly very peaceful and content with that mode for the time being.

[tkmorris]

11. It doesn't have to be that way

Really. Read that again just to be sure you get it. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY.

I firmly believe that the real differences between men and women are minor, and furthermore that anyone who has been through the relationship wars a few times and has more than two neurons competing for bragging rights in their noggin knows already that whatever differences there are simply don't matter.

I can only provide anecdotal evidence to support this point of view, but it's an anecdote I am close to and understand. My wife and I. We truly do not view each other through the filter of our respective sexes; we view each other as we are are, as best we can. We complement each other wonderfully, though as often as not the traditional gender roles are reversed in our relationship. This is not the first marriage for either of us. We lived, we loved, and we learned, before we ever met each other. In our prior relationships we both sought something deeper and more reasoned than the typical love/hate relationships that our friends had.

We were unable to find it in our prior marriages, but when we met each other and compared notes we knew we had finally found the right formula. We both reject with utter derision the roles that traditional society and pop culture would like us to play. For example, I am the disciplinarian usually with our children, but at the same time I also play the "stay at home Mom" role. My wife earns our household income. Whenever we find ourselves in social situations we are amused that the men go off to bond in whatever way they do best while the women often find themselves grouped in the kitchen, telling horror stories about their own husbands. We don't do either of those things, instead we go off on our own, together, to enjoy a sunset or the like. Needless to say we usually aren't invited back.

That's fine with us though. Karen is the best friend I've ever had, and my lifelong partner. She will ALWAYS be the first person I rely on in any crisis, and the first I turn to in times of need. She is my sole source of advice, and the only person I will accept comfort from.

And I am hers.

You may doubt that. I know we did. For some time, years in fact, the only source of potential argument for us was when the inevitable doubts crept in. We simply could not bring ourselves to believe that we weren't deluding ourselves in some way.

We got over that.

Now, we simply are what we are. We do not allow anyone to define what we should be; we simply exist as the people we feel ourselves to be. Gender roles are left behind, they are for other people. In any situation we automatically assess each others skills and divide up the roles accordingly.

If you have read Vonnegut you might refer to us as a true karass. We aren't the only ones I am sure. You can be too, just leave behind all of that GI Joe/Barbie crap and be who you are, forget what anyone else thinks. Think of yourself as an incredibly complex puzzle piece, seeking a perfectly fitting counterpart, in a world that contains millions of possible pieces to be tried and discarded. I think that is where so many people go wrong. They believe that they MUST be involved in some kind of relationship and so are in a rush to get into one. As a result they find someone in their immediate circle they are attracted to and try to make it work. It usually doesn't.

Take your time. Do not accept the best of a bad lot, be content to be alone. Seek about you and find the one who fits. Be patient, they will show up. Eventually.

And then you will feel as fortunate as we do. Believe me, it's worth it.

[retread]

13. My personal relationships ARE dictated by my political view of the

world! If we are not in some basic agreement on core values then the relationship can rarely proceed past a superficial level. You can call that a "coward attitude" if you wish.

[donsu]

15. who wants a relationship with an MCP?

nt

[Tsiyu]

16. I have a great deal of hope these days

for my daughter and sons.

At 45, I'll opine, the majority of my generation of males ( I am a female, btw) leaves MUCH to be desired. The men in my peer group came of age during the height of the sexual revolution, pre-AIDS, and they simply enjoyed all the extra sex without fundamentally changing their perceptions about men and women.

Now that three of mine are in college, I get to meet quite a few young people and I am muy impressed with today's generation of teens and twenty-somethings. The guys look you in the eye, listen to what you say, include you in conversations, listen to your advice, pass the bowl your way, offer to jam with you ( a WOMAN!!!). They treat the young women with much more respect and friendship.

Now I'm not saying ALL older men are lost and ALL young men are saints. There are some great older guys and pathetic young ones. But, overall, my generation of women has raised some insightful young people who no longer accept the paradigms of their "traditional" mothers and fathers.

[shance]

17. Thank you! I believe we as woman have to value our voices again.

I feel like with everything it begins with us listening to other women and valuing what they have to say along with valuing our own voices as women.


I think until we begin to value our voice as much as any mans and stop deferring to men, which in turn gives them a false sense of superiority, we are going to constantly be at odds with them and relinquishing our value and our valuable sources of strength, compassion, and our often highly attuned 'instincts'.

[Nobody]

18. I eagerly await the day

that we as a society can think of people as people first, and men and women second.

Where you can refer to a rocket scientist and it could be either a man or a woman and you DON'T CARE.

Where seeing a road crew filling potholes has men and women and you DON'T NOTICE.

Where people treat each other as individuals entitled to individual choices and have all the options presented to them early and often.

Where you can be friends with anyone, male or female, with or without your spouse and not have to worry that your spouse will resent this.

Where you can be friends with anyone, male or female, and all of you will be comfortable in each other's presence, whether in a group or one on one.

Where you can be whoever you are, enjoy the things you enjoy without having to make excuses or hide your interests.

I'm privileged to know people like this. Spouses who completely trust each other, friends whose relationships don't cool off when a marriage occurs, men who don't race out of the room when childbirth is the topic, women who don't fall asleep when power tools is the topic, people who share interests and know how to enjoy themselves.

[seabeyond]

20. Can you admit that the guys too got the message?

i married one. and thank you for him. and i do get to shut up. and i am raising two boys i dont battle with. we love each other. i suggest that the males that did get the message, thank you and dont be sensitive in this time, because it is not you i am talking to i assure you. not only do i know you exist, but you are all around me, so many different males. so when i dont shut up for a male, i am not talking to you, i assure you

just as, when someone talks to the christians, i am not sensitive, because i know they are not talking to me

just as when a male talks to females and ask them to trust in your instincts, i know you are not talking to me.

i agree with you post. of late i have been saying trust me. and you can, becuase you can see what i have created. trust me. and can we talk now. i like your post because in just a mere week, conversation has opened with my father and a brther. and exactly the points you are making in your post

i dont think this is hard to do. in my house it is pretty easy. i am just normal. what is happening in my house, has to be happening in many

so yes, i do think it is time to be trusting the other to do, and do our own

[merh]

21. The first thing you need to do is appreciate a very simple fact --

everyone does not perceive the world as you do. You do not think like everyone else and others don't think exactly as you do. You will find it easier to get along in life, to have a relationship with another, wheter it be male or female, lover or friend, if you accept the simple premise that you do not think like everyone else and others don't necessarily think like you do.

What you perceive as simple may be way over the head of another or far too trite to be considered of value by still another. That does not make you wrong or right, it is just how things are. Try to recognize that in order to gain control you must relinquish control.

If you want to truly reconcile males and females, begin your personal journey by reconciling the differences you perceive but not by changing others, but by accepting others as they are. Begin by recognizing that not everyone sees things the way you do and accepted the fact that the only time you can change another is when you change their diapers as infants.

Just my honest opinions and as reflected in my post, I obviously don't perceive the battle of the sexes as you do. That does not necessarily make me right and you wrong, it just means my view point is different.

[Tsiyu]

22. The problem is, sometimes we take this as a copout

"The sexes are so different from each other, we will never understand each other." This immediately places a wedge between the sexes.

Perception is often a matter of experience. A mother explaining to a man the pain of childbirth shouldn't be dismissed because the man will never feel it. A man talking about erectile dysfunction shouldn't be laughed at because the women to whom he's speaking will never have a penis.

Women now know combat, construction, engineering and medicine.

Men now know how to grow and use herbs, how to teach children to read and how to do laundry.

Reaching BEYOND the differences to find the common ground, and having empathy and concern for the well-being of others - even with a varying life experience from ours - seems more the point on which to focus.

[merh]

24. Agreed. To accept stereotypical differences based on gender

is part of the problem. Another part is simply failing to recognize that no two people are alike, think alike, react alike. Accepting differences as beautiful part of life is very freeing. Cultivating the skill of empathy and putting yourself in the shoes of another helps in understanding the differences and makes it easier to reach beyond them.

[Tsiyu]

25. It takes dialogue, for sure

I think some people have dug their heels in and said, "They won't try to understand me so i refuse to understand them."

I have been guilty of this. I admit it. But the best moments of enlightenment for me have been those moments when I have abandoned my expectations of what a person was or should do or be, and just allowed that person to show me who they were and what they were capable of. You are right on the money there.

But I think we need to listen to each other and keep listening and stop creating walls. People are happiest when they are needed by others, I believe. To be needed, one must understand the situations of others.

[merh]

26. But before you can understand the situation of others, you have

to understand and love your own complexities and differences.

I believe it is the simple message of all religions. Love.

If you love someone, truly, unconditionally love someone, you do so in spite of their human failings. You accept them warts and all, you recognize that they are different than you are and you accept and embrace the differences because it is what makes the other person who they are. You can not love someone unless you love yourself, unless you accept yourself for who you are, recognize you are human and prone to make mistakes, but despite the mistakes, you continue to try and you continue to forgive and love yourself.

God is love, love God (love love) with your whole heart and your whole soul (love loving - love the gift that is love, love giving love and being loved) and love thy neighbor as thyself (you cannot love another unless you love yourself). That is the trilogy, that is spirtuality.

[Tsiyu]

27. Love only goes so far.

True love is understanding and caring for others, but it takes some brainpower to sift through the manipulations, social constraints and myths that are poured out in front of us all day every day.


For example, people continue to have a double standard when it comes to female/male sexuality.

A promiscuous man is "virile," "studly," a "Romeo." He's considered healthy and normal and in no way addicted to sex ( even if he is) or as using sex to assuage his own insecurities. He just likes sex By Golly and what the hell is wrong with that? There are no psychological abnormalities associated with an actively sexual adult hetero male.

A promiscuous woman is called a "whore," a "slut," "Dirty," "trashy" and worse - even BY THE MEN WHO ARE ALSO PROMISCUOUS. She engages in sex to "get something" or to make up for an absent daddy or because she has some sociopathic need that sex fills. There are reams of classifications and compartments for "actively-sexual-female-as-mentally-unstable" types. Apparantly, there isn't one woman on the planet having sex because she LIKES SEX! All women have sex because
A) They want something material or emotional in return
B) They are mentally unstable
C) They are evil and dirty.

It doesn't matter how much i, as a woman, love myself. If I am dealing with males ( and females) who put such ridiculous judgements on others, I am not going to get very far. I have seen women engage in witch hunts against other women, convincing all the men in their social group that a certain woman is "undesirable" simply because of their own jealousies or to play their petty psychological games.
The men go along because they get the benefit of not pissing off the women. Plus, they can fall back on the "I'm so different- as a guy" thing and convince themselves that, "Yeah, she did have sex once with so-and-so so she MUST be a whore" even if they're dating another woman who also had sex with the same guy.

Rather than reaching out to the idiots, I've just learned to avoid them, and now seek out and try to attract people who are not so Victorian in their views of other humans.

Love is nice. But love won't take away prejudice until the biased person wants to open his or her eyes.

[KissMeKate]

29. I suspect the double standard is an attempt on the part of "studs" to

distance themselves from the potantial negative consequences of sex.

After all, if "shes a whore" then the kid cant be yours, can it? (And you sure as heck didnt give her herpes! lol)

[Tsiyu]

30. Too true!

And if women don't really enjoy sex, they would have to be "bad" or "manipulative" to engage in it. Viola! Instant crime!

[KissMeKate]

28. Lise, WHO is "dictating" to you that you cant trust men?

its certainly not feminists.

In fact, Im not sure where youre getting the message not to trust men, (unless its a womens salf defense class) or be at war with them.

I have been an active member of NOW (the National Organisation of Women) for years, AND a leader of my local chapter one year(a few years ago) and neither I now any of the women in my group EVER told women not to trust men, neither did we "dictate" to women not to trust men.

I suggest you figure out where you are getting the "women are at war with men" message- I suspect that it, like "man jokes" does NOT nowadays come from women who call themselves feminists.

[shance]

31. KMK*, I don't think things are that simplistic.

We have a significant imbalance of power that surely affects the level of trust between individuals, and certainly men and women. Who holds the power in this world and who is most affected by those in power?

How has that power been exploited, used against women, used to control and suppress women's power in general. Of course it could be said power is used to control many cultures of men and women on a larger scale, and power is used and abused to keep those in power from losing their power. With power being compared to dominance.

How have women been exploited, used as sex (and work) slaves, discriminated against, objectified, villified, disposed of/punished for getting older, disregarded, ignored?

Of course, there are others, including many males that have been discriminated against as well.

Your post acted as if you were surprised at such realities and expressions of anger that come from those realities. I thought these examples would help.