The Right Wing has tapped into a confluence of several currents

[KlatooBNikto]

in our society. I will put them this way:

1. A genuine fear created, more or less, by the 9/11 event.Who created it can be left open at this time.

2. The fear that our way of life is not sustainable over the long run because the Arabs/Muslims are sitiing on the oil we need.

3. The fear that countries like China and India are going to pose enormous threats to our way of life because their populations are becoming highly educated, their countries are becoming industrialized fast and their growth seems unstoppable.

4. Within our own society, the days of male dominance appear to be over.Women and minorities are climbing the ladder and posing very serious challenges to the old paradigm.

All of these currents threaten not merely the sense of entitlement of the white males at the top, but also the white males at the bottom. This is why Democrats are not able to make any inroads appealing to the bottom tier because they are afraid of having to share the pie with people of different races and nationalities just as much as the upper echelons.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Fear must be replaced by hope

That's what FDR did. He gave people the hope that things would get better. That's what needs to be done now. Fearmongers use the emotion to get power and control, but power and control based on fear doesn't last-instead, it self-destructs.

We can send out a message of hope by showing that Democrats really stand for:

family values-we have a plan to make sure that working Americans get a living wage, have adequate health care, and a clean environment in which to live

sane foreign policy-we encourage alternative energy use, because it is the ONLY way to stop our dependence on foreign oil. We work to bring about real coalitions to solve problems-heck, you can use Bush I's Iraq coalition and how little that war cost us in money and lives.

[papau]

2. How did we the left succeed in the 30's and 40's. Atitutude change was

top down via union leadership demanding fairness for all workers.

In the 40's even as I was a kid I heard folks say "Blacks" (a different word was used) deserve their rights, but if the get equal treatment, what is a poor uneducated white going to do when he needs a job?

And the unions came back and via peer pressure made fairness to all and a good contract for all the order of the day.

The Clinton bottom line - peace and prosperity for 8 years - solves all problems.

As you say fear is the selling point for the just about every vote the GOP receives in an election. Yet they claim they sell faith in the future and optimism as they really sell "we screwed up - but that is backwards looking - and Dems will really screw up in the future if elected".

[HereSince1628]

6. Is that evidence that Unions asserted authoritarian control?

I don't have a problem with leaders behaving as models of behavior. And I can see that an attitude shaped by adopting the model of a leader could be one of choice--and that would fall within a philosohically democratic framework.

On the otherhand I can see that the imposition of a policy by fiat is authoritarian and more difficult to accept as democratic, even if the outcome (fairness) was an entirely worthy goal.

Which form of top-down attitude change were you suggesting happened?

[papau]

11. no top down control - but top down attitude - which changed a lot

of attitude at the worker level.

Unions were always places were you complained - but the type of complaint that was peer approved - by those at the top - became the peer approved complaint at the worker level.

There were always racist nuts - but the majority of poor white racism seemed to be - in the 40's - fear of job loss and fear of stupid uneducated kid or relative not getting a job if the jobs they qualified for were allowed to go to folks of color.

Folks were fighting for America together - the attitude change was not a hard sell given the situation - but the attitude change was not being sold except by the white run unions (and indeed only some of those unions - there were a few that remained "exclusive")- at least that was the way it seemed to be in my little world as a youngster. But the integration was to the level of "somewhat friendly, civil, discourse" - it took 25 to 30 years before mixed color of skin tight relationships became something other than extremely rare. Peer group pressure to not date or marry across the color line was fierce in the 50's - for both the boy and the girl - for both the "white" and the "colored".

So what I am saying is not that unions forced integration down the throats of the membership in the 40's and 50's - I am just saying that there were just about no other major institutions that even had part of the management group applying peer pressure in that direction - government, education, church, and corporations did nothing although the military -post Truman -also became a haven for civil discourse between those of different color - most of the time.

It is a long journey - one that is now past the halfway point in my opinion - but one that still has a long way to go.

[Blue Wally]

25. Several types of unions

The large industrial unions were organized accross an industry (autoworkers, miners, longshoremen, and teamsters). You got the job and then joined the union. These unions were relatively easy to integrate.

The AFL was primarlily made up of "craft unions" where they were organized around a particular skill and there might be numerous different unions on a jobsite. In a lot of these unions, the employer had to go to the union to hire a worker. The union had an apprentice program and the apprentices were to a large extent the sons, nephews, brothers-in-law, or next door neighbors of union men. These unions were very difficult to integrate.

[papau]

27. Very True - apprentice programs (journeyman, etc) seem open now

but it took a long time.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[izzie]

4. Change is always fear to many people.

One does hate to also face facts. That we want the oil to keep China in line seems to be in the works but then what do we do with our debt and who is in control of it. I am sure China wishes to protect it's capital and so it goes. That we have falling in the world of the greatest production country is sure in the works, and as the worlds bank we are done. That leaves us with a great army that will sure have to come to a slow down as how can one keep it up if you have no capital to run it? I my self think we have had our day, and it is sad as I grew up in this country and really like it.

[forgethell]

5. Yes, white racism

is the cause of all our problems. <sarcasm>

[KlatooBNikto]

8. I never implied White Racism as the cause of our problems in my

post. What I did say was that the fear generated by the items I listed has made them seek refuge in the solutions offered by the Right Wing.

[forgethell]

9. Then you shouldn't

have used the term "white males". Unfortunately, there is no other way to read your comments, IMO.

[KlatooBNikto]

10. The fear I talked about applies to white males mostly because, as the

most privileged section of our society, they stand to lose the most by the changes I mentioned.

[forgethell]

14. Somehow,

I don't feel particularly privileged. We all have problems. In any event, you are generalizing, the very essence of racism.

[KlatooBNikto]

15. I would say compared to women, blacks, Hispanics and other

minorities, we have had a more privileged existence. I do know that all of us have problems but when I look at the black cleaning lady who comes to our office building who has to work at two minimum wage jobs, I have it good overall. That is the fear of loss I was trying to convey. May be I could have used a different language to show you that racism was the last thing on my mind.

As Buddha once said, suffering is the common experience of humanity.This is why we ought to be compassionate towrd each other.I believe that.Please take my word. Racism is not one of my strong qualities.

[forgethell]

16. Still, there is nothing

wrong with having material goods that you have earned; worked and studied and saved for.

I will certainly accept your word that racism is not among your strong suits.

[KlatooBNikto]

17. Nothing wrong with that at all, so long as others have the same

opportunities as you or I did based on their merit.I think we have reached a point in this country where merit should be the only consideration in either employing some person or promoting that person. All of that will become moot when all of us will have to compete with Chinese or Indian graduates for each and every job. That day appears not too far away.Already I know many jobs in support services in the medical and legal professions, along with financial services are being exported to India.This is going to be a flood in the next few years.Even if we still get jobs here, that will have an effect of depressing the wages of our graduates. I hope you research where your children plan to go in their careers.

[forgethell]

18. In all history

no society whatsoever has provided equal opportunities from birth for all its members. The United States comes closer than any other society ever. And that, as you point out, is not all that close.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

19. Have you ever lived outside the US?

How do you know The US has provided more equal opportunities?

Please explain, and please refrain from propagandizing.

[forgethell]

20. Oh, yes, indeed.

I lived 2 1/2 years in the Philippines. Have spent time in Canada, China, Japan, Mexico.

As to how do I know? How can you not?? Look around you, open your eyes. Where would you rather live? What place has less ethnic tension? Europe? I laugh!! Nazism, Muslim ghettos. Japan? Do you know that Koreans, racially indistinguishable from the Japanese, whose families have lived there for generations, are severely discriminated against? No, I'll bet that you didn't.

China, Korea? C'mon, give me a break. Africa? Hell, they can't stand each other. Witness all the, what's the word I'm looking for?, oh, yeah!, genocide that has taken place over there.

So what place, with any sizable minority, has less ethnic tension and more opportunities for minorities? Let's say at least 10% minority. I propose a limit because it is easy to tolerate people who are not there.

No propaganda.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[forgethell]

23. You mean

the right, correct, not wrong side, I presume. ;-) I certainly try to be. We all want to be on the right side of history, don't we?

How many blacks are in Sweden or the Netherlands, percentagewise? Do any other people besides blacks suffer from discrimination anywhere? My understanding is that some of the Nordic countries are planning to cut back on immigration because of certain problem they've been having with certan immigrants that seem unwilling to assimilate. But perhaps you haven't heard.

Don't they have a lot of government contolled media in most European countries? How can you call that free? Do you really think bureaucrats have your interests at heart. Or are they just like everybody else, looking out for number 1? My money goes on the later. And I would say the government in power, if it has the ability to do so, will project its own views on the media and the public.

"Raging class system". I love that. Where isn't there one? MOney always talks. Not good, of course, but inescapable. And certainly no worse here than anywhere else, and better than most.


All that being said: there is certainly a lot of room for improvement in the USA. And it should be improved.

[Blue Wally]

26. The Bantu peoples of western Africa

The Bantu essentially wiped out all but a few small pockets of the Khoisan and Pygmy peopls who once populated most of the continent in much the same way as the Eurpoeans immigrants displaced the naticve Americans or the native Australians. Look at how the vietnamese displaced the original Cham and Khmer peoples from modern Vietnam and their conitinuing genocide against the Montagnard minorities.

[forgethell]

28. Thanks.

I was thinking of more recent, even current genocides taking place in AFrica, though. There's plenty of it.

[Bonhomme Richard]

7. Isn't this just basic conservatism?

As far as I can tell, the one constant with conservatives is the fear that things will only get worse and everyone is out to take what little they have. You could replace 9/11, china, woman, etc... with anything depending on the time of day.
Hah, that's why they are pissed all the time.

[papau]

12. Dem?take what little they have is standard rich control of the masses cant

now called the GOP values agenda by the media.

[Coastie for Truth]

13. Hit the issues head on - take an Al Franken - Paul Krugman disassembly

Like Karl Rove -- take each "worry" - show - in two word phrases and sound bites that it is the GOP's fault---- and come back again in two word phrases and sound bites with the counter attack that only the Dems can solve them.

1. A genuine fear created, more or less, by the 9/11 event.Who created it can be left open at this time.

Correct statement -- our response should be "Where's binLadin. He is a dealer in Vegas or an Elvis impersonator? Almost four years and we still don't have time. Time for a new team.

2. The fear that our way of life is not sustainable over the long run because the Arabs/Muslims are siting on the oil we need.

Jimmie Carter told us that almost 30 years ago -- and the GOP killed most alternative energy and renewable energy programs -- the DOE Lab in Golden CO is a Potemkin village of smoke and mirrors, and we still being told that drilling in ANWR and tax breaks for fossil fuels will save us.

3. The fear that countries like China and India are going to pose enormous threats to our way of life because their populations are becoming highly educated, their countries are becoming industrialized fast and their growth seems unstoppable.

Who is dismantling the NAS and the NIH, and cutting back on money for education, and pushing "UNIntelligent Design" and "Creation Science" and banning Stem Cell Research?

4. Within our own society, the days of male dominance appear to be over. Women and minorities are climbing the ladder and posing very serious challenges to the old paradigm.

With the cut off of Student, H1B, and L1 visas -- we need to get creative, bright people.

Hit the issues head on.

[secular_warrior]

22. Minorities are climbing the ladder?

IMO, the only group benefitting from modern liberalism is white women - they are climbing the ladder. Somehow they leapfrogged in front of minorities (I wonder why?).

The left needs to get real about what it needs to do. There needs to be a real left wing movement within the Democratic party, instead of this urban elite bullshit that only benefits white women.

The way I see it, as a minority:

The Republican party - party of upwardly mobile white men.
The Democratic Party - party of upwardly mobile white women.

Poor, uneducated, socially "uncool" people of all races get left out.

The people who win are the people who have always won: upwardly mobile whites - culturally liberal, economically libertarian.

[mattclearing]

24. As always, the establishment party benefits from more of the same.

They try to frame change as scary, dangerous, or worse.

It is our task, both for ourselves, and those who represent us, to frame change as necessary, advantageous, and progressive towards some as yet unachieved ideal.