These people live in my country.

[kazoo35]

There are people who live in the US who support the use of torture. There are those who support the invasion of any country in the world with no evidence of any wrongdoing at all, just for the hell of it. There are those who want to dismantle Social Security and public schools to hurt the poorest and most defenseless among us. They are OK with the use of napalm in the bombing of civilian populations.

There are people among us who seek to increase the war in the middle east with genocide on their minds. Some of them are Christians, and want to slaughter the infidel like the Crusades were still on.

Some of them support fascism openly, and would like to see it implemented here in the US. They think the NY Times is a liberal establishment that prints lies because the Jewish editors hate Bush. They really believe that stuff.

They want to stop the teaching of evolution in schools, and support the banning of books. They are deathly afraid of Islamic terrorists. At the same time, they don't want to examine the reasons that Islamic terrorists might be targetting us. It's almost as though an illusionist was drawing their attention away from the most obvious thing in the world and towards a twisted little lie.

How can this be? When did this happen? I can't understand why anyone would support torture. It's the most evil thing in the world. We remember the torture done in the Catholic church a thousand years later because it was so horrible. A thousand years, and we still read about it today. How will we be remembered?

[chookie]

1. There is an interesting overlap

The torture to which Iraqis were subjected to turns one's stomach, and seems to render null the humanity of the people who perpetrated it.

When I saw it, and when I read the descriptions of what happened, I can't help but be reminded of the agonies of the inquisition, of the Disappeared, etc.

But something really disturbed me about the most recent revelations, about the man who was tortured to death, whose arms had almost been torn from their sockets, and who was found to have large quantities of blood in his esophagus.

A lot of people were fixated upon Mel Gibson's movie, The Passion of the Christ, which focused intensely upon the horrific agonies of Jesus at the hands of His torturers.

But how much different was the torture Jesus was subjected to -- the scourging, the mocking, and worse -- from what American soldiers did to their prisoners? Of course, the Passion of Christ is a pivotal theme in Christianity, and it is said that He purchased the redemption of mankind with it -- but, if we get to the "forensics" -- what He was subjected to was no more awful that victims of torture have experiences since, perhaps like this hapless Iraqi man. Reading about what happened to this Iraqi in the most recent reports, I thought immediately of the scene in POTC in which a bound Jesus is pushed off a bridge, which dislocates His arms....

What I don't get is why the torture of Jesus is seen as the greatest crime in all of human history, but that the torture of Iraqi prisoners is minimized, said to be "blowing off steam", or what they deserve, otherwise not a big deal.

Why is it that so many of the people who love The Passion of the Christ and are so deeply moved by it can not be moved, or horrified, what happened to human beings in Iraq?

The utter hypocrisy, and the utter moral blindness of these people is staggering. In a world where everything is divided into good/evil black/white America/terrorists -- they simply can't wrap their brains around the fact that "patriotic Americans" did this stuff, that one of them, perhaps Bush himself, is not morally "pure". So they turn a blind eye to all this highly meaningful, awful stuff.

They have to try to minimize it, because the truth is, as you point out, this stuff is critically important in our nation's history. This stuff will be remembered for a thousand years, here, and throughout the world. As an unnamed person in the Pentagon said, shortly after the photos came to light, referring to the perpetrators, "The assholes who lost the war for us."

They talk about the lack of moral compass of the left -- how ironic that they are so dismissive of this torture; talk about moral relativism, eh?

[Tigress DEM]

8. Torture is wrong. Period.

In my study of history and cultural anthropology, I've come to believe that it is the remaining "US" vs "Them" mentality from days when humans first began to form as clans. Only those in your own clan, who looked like you and acted like you could be trusted. Life was harsh and anyone who was a "them" was killed on site, no questions asked.

In military training, you are trained to see the enemy as a "them" and it has to be that way, because how else can you shoot a fellow human being? Also you have to be convinced in the rightness of your cause. Otherwise how could you murder another human being and sleep at night?

The Geneva Convention put some civilized rules in place. Often they have been disregarded, but America had been the gold standard for good behavior. We followed those rules so we could demand those rights for our POWs.

I know Colin Powell argued with Bush about the threat to our soldiers if we engaged in torture. As per usual he was ignored.

The thing is, none of us are perfect and these people who honestly believe but are filled with anger at "them" look at how "they" live their lives... worship services at the fringes that advocate violent overthrow, women being subject to overt rule - even clintectomies, men who feel it is an honor to suicide and take others with them.

The small minority group within Islam that this represents should be dealt with, but killing everyone who looks like "them" isn't the answer.

It's primal fear that grips these people. They can't even stand to see a dark skinned person who has lived in this country all their life be elevated beyond mere servitude.

Each country needs to talk their own lunatic fringes off the roofs and coax the weapons out of their hands.

Because when we look at our lunatic fringe and label them a "them" we forget their humanity also. I know it isn't easy, but we have to find a way to repair the community fabric of our country which has a place for nuts and neo-cons, but has enough supervision of them so they don't get in charge again and drag us into unjust wars because of the insanity of their fears.

[mwb970]

2. This period will be seen as a dreadful aberration.

Let's hope so, anyway.

[0rganism]

14. No moreso than periods of manifest destiny or slavery or union busting

We've always had it in us, from the very beginning. This is who we are.

On the whole, periods of peace and respect for human rights appear to be the true aberrations. From the discovery of the "New World" to the Salem Witch Trials to the Trail of Tears to the Red Scare to the War on Terra, I'm hard pressed to think of a single decade that has not been frought with such sorrows.

"America is not a young land. It is old and dirty, evil. Before the settlers, before the Indians, the evil is there, waiting." -- William S. Burroughs

[Mist]

3. I believe that sadism is misplaced anger

A lot of people feel frustrated and enraged for a lot of reasons, many of them economic reasons. Not being the types who actually look into things, rather than blame TPTB, or the Corporatocracy, their anger is channelled away from the underlying causes of their frustration and anger to convenient targets (foreigners, Muslims, liberals, the OTHER). Very much like what was done for generations in the south--poor whites had their resentments directed to African-Americans rather than the rich mill owner.

[Zenlitened]

4. These people live on the same piece of geography...

... but they don't live in our country. America has become a series of nations within nations, perhaps more so than at any time in its history. And that includes the Civil War era, when the split was at least clearly enough defined to draw on a map.

[qwghlmian]

5. You know, I see this and I wonder - have you thought this thru?

"How can this be? When did this happen? I can't understand why anyone would support torture."

Do you mean "ever"?

Scenario: your wife and kids are on a plane wired with explosives and can only be saved if a certain radio signal is given (assume for argument's sake that you can see the results immediately so you would know that the signal was right). You are holding a guy who knows the signal. The clock is ticking. There are 30 minutes left. The guy refuses to give you the information. "Reasoning" with him for the last 30 minutes didn't work. Would you resort to torture?

[Tigress DEM]

10. Here is the thing about torture, it doesn't work.

If I was in that scenario, this man would be given a choice, imput the code or die. Whether I had the authority to kill him myself or had him hauled away to trial, I still don't advocate torture.

Why waste any time prolonging the issue if all efforts to peacefully solve the issue had been tried?

People who are terrorists and do unspeakable things should be held accountable for their actions, but if we resort to torture we give them what they want, more fuel for revenge.

Course I would pray real hard that he'd imput the code so I didn't have to kill him or send him away. Who would want to sacrifice their family for some scum who would resort to such tactics?

But if I come down to their level and behave like a sadist, I've already lost even if I win.

[qwghlmian]

16. So - as I asked in the other post,

if you already tried the "input the code or die" thing and the man refused, and you thought that if you tortured the man there would be a chance he would give you what you wanted, would you still refuse to do it because it is unethical, or would you say to hell with ethics, I want to save my family?

These absolutist views that people bandy about here are laughable. If you were in that situation, you would inflict as much pain as you could on the terrorist to save your family, and you know it.

[kazoo35]

17. Yeah, I would.

I'd do it under those circumstances. I'd kill in the defense of my own life or my family's lives. I'd torture. I'd burn his face off if I thought it would help. Toenails + pliers = code? You bet I would.

I'm not proud of it though, and I wouldn't want to. In the moment, panicking and freaking out, I'd do it. I'm sure I'd be a different man from that day forward. What a horrible thing to do. I don't think I'd sleep very well after that.

I sure as hell am not looking for an opportunity to do it. If I was backed into a corner I'd do all kinds of things that I ordinarily wouldn't do.

You happy now? Good.

On the other hand, we've got a group of people out there who are actively supporting the use of torture on people that haven't even been charged with a crime, and are not in the posession of information that's good for anything. Most of these guys were just rounded up out of desperation to try and make it look like Dubya's doing something in the WOT.

I hope you can see the line dividing those two scenarios.

[qwghlmian]

18. What you are describing in the first part of your post

is the situation in which torture is justified. What you are describing in the second part of your post is the situation in which torture is not justified.

But that is not the position of your original post. In the original post you flatly and absolutely stated "I can't understand why anyone would support torture. It's the most evil thing in the world.".

Judging by your response to my post, you DO, in fact, understand why someone would support torture under some circumstances, and under those circumstances it would expressly NOT be "the most evil thing in the world".

[kazoo35]

19. I know where you're going with this but...

it's still the most evil thing in the world, and I would be guilty of it. Just because I'd do it doesn't make it right. Panicking and wetting my pants and with snot flying out of my nose, I'd tear his insides out looking for that code. I'd have become my own worst nightmare and would probably require a ridiculous amount of therapy to continue to function normally thereafter.

It's still the wrong thing to do, but I'm weak and I'd do it.

[qwghlmian]

20. No, in a situation like that

the most evil thing (for me, if I was in the situation) in the world would be NOT to do it.

[Solon]

11. GodDAMN, I'm sick of these scenarios

If you only have 30 minutes, your family is dead when you have to resort to torturing the guy, because he either won't break and whatever he says will not be trustworthy anyways, using a scanner to find the signal is a much smarter solution, given your assinine scenario, it at least has a chance of succeeding, and you don't have to fork over your humanity in the process. Anyone can think of these scenarios, but think about this, if you were tortured, you would say ANYTHING to make it stop, it wouldn't matter to you if it was the truth or not, as long as the torturer is satisfied, why the FUCK anyone thinks torture is reliable, I do not know.

[qwghlmian]

15. So - is your argument that torture is not reliable

or that it is unethical. In the scenario above, if you thought that torture would, in fact, give you the signal, would you do it or not? Or would you stop because it is unethical, and to hell with the lives of your wife and kids?

[RedCloud]

6. We are an Empire!

For more than one hundred years.
Death toll rings for all non-Nordics who dare defy the economy of crapitalism.

[Tigress DEM]

13. You tokin' with GW or something?

Don't understand your post dude.

[Karenina]

7. How will you be remembered?

As idiot sons and daughters of ASSHOLES, too self-involved to speak aloud of the atrocities committed in your names and NOT on your behalf.

[BeHereNow]

9. Edit please Karenina...

Please insert the following
"arrongant" assholes.
and
too "ignorant" and self-involved
We must record history accurately!
BHN

[Tigress DEM]

12. 600 years ago there were the Christian Crusades in the Middle East

The Catholic version was the Inquisition BTW.