Dean has the best Idea yet for the Middle east

[Capn Sunshine]

Despite the spin you paranoids are putting out there , Deans message for peace in the middle east is to be involved immediately.
Joe Trippi JUST said moments ago:
The US "has had a special relationship with Israel in which we assure Israels security as the only democracy in the Middle East.That certainly is bipartisan and the American position for 54 years and under President Dean it would remain so...what we need is someone like Bill Clinton, in fact the governor called on President Bush to put partisanship aside and call on Clinton to go to the middle east to try to restart up the peace process...."

Oneof President Deans first acts if elected would be to call on President Clinton to start up a new peace process

is this clear enough to you Dean bashers ?

[blm]

1. I said that here at DU many times over the last year.

.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

2. I was sorry I missed the beginning of the live chat

I saw Trippi make that statement though, and am happier with Dean's presentation of his position on I/P now than I was a few months ago.

[newsguyatl]

3. exactly

and he went further to say that when elected, dean will immediately call on clinton to forge ahead with a peace plan.

[Capn Sunshine]

4. So where's the anti-Israel thoughts in this?

it seems pretty straight up to me. Is it just the anti-Deansters want trouble?

[jos]

5. You don't understand

Unless you pledge undying loyalty to the state of Israel, you are under suspicion by AIPAC and their political puppets. This has nothing to do with the anti-Dean folks per se. It is the AIPAC crowd that is stirring this up.

[Capn Sunshine]

7. wow they are suddenly silent on the subject

the gigantic head must be broadcasting new anti-Dean instructions

[arcos]

12. Now they will say that Dean's position is the same as Bush...

AGAIN. They don't even know what do say.

"DEAN IS SHARON'S WHORE!!!"
"DEAN IS AGAINST THE EXISTANCE OF ISRAEL!!!!"

:puke:

[Woodstock]

30. LOL

My laugh of the day, thanks!!! :)

I can just picture it happening...

[eleny]

6. When Dean said this during the debate

it was the perfect answer. Bush abandoned the middle east until it went up his butt on 9/11. Sorry for being so crude about it. Sadly, 9/11 was also his lucky day. What an awful mess Bush made of things by ignoring everything that the Clinton admin left for him like a gift. Warnings & information about Al Qaeda, the efforts forged between Israel and the Palestinians plus an enormous buget surplus.

I'm not a Deanie but I thought that was one of the best answers during last night's deabte.

[friendofbenn]

8. what the hell was so radical about deans position on the middle east?

everyone knows that the u.s backing isreal has absolutely nothing to do with democracy and everything to do with "strategic interests" i.e oil. dean said he'd take a neutral position between isreal and palestine and switch to renewable energy. the correct policy. its a pity he's been forced to back down by lieberman and the rest of the "oil first" brigade

edit: its late here and i'm forgetting the english language

[E_Zapata]

9. That's not a "plan" or a "roadmap"

That's invoking a desperate political ploy. It insinuates Clinton into his campaign. Not a bad political ploy, but a ploy it is.

Asking CARTER to intervene would be slightly better.

What does it mean "it will be involved immedieately"? Involved?

How about telling one of the biggest nuclear powers (Isreal) to stop lobbing bombs into masses of people for starters?

Paranoid?

Sorry, but you Deanies take a crumb and think you have cake.

[Capn Sunshine]

18. Since when do we need a "roadmap"?

We need a respected negotiator to broker a peace.
End of story

[E_Zapata]

22. Wrong again:

We need to put a lid on the billions of dollars we send to Israel at the same time that we tell both Israel and Palestine to cool it for those negoatiations.

You see, I have faith that the Palestinians don't want to blow Israel up. I have faith that they don't want to continue with the rock throwing. I have faith that they just want to get up in the morning and go to work and feed their families. I have faith in the Palestinians. And if we would call off the bloodthirsty Israelis, and let the Palestinians know that a cease fire is starting at X moment -- the bombings will stop.

That's when you send in the negotiators.

The underdog is Palestine - and that is because of the US funding and support of Israel and for the US intervention to stop UN sanctions against Israel.

But as long as the American public continues to act like Israel is some poor nation just getting a raw deal, it won't matter who we send in to negotiate.

[Tinoire]

10. Kucinich's stance on the Middle East is actually the best one

And he has never waffled. This is why he is the only candidate who has been interviewed and supported by Tikkun since the beginning and the main candidate being pushed by Jews for Peace; they will only list 3 on their web-site (Kucinich, Sharpton and Mosely-Braun): http://www.positiveuniverse.org/Archives2003May/JewsforPeaceandJusticeint.html

This is yet another reason he's been endorsed by Chomsky and most of the peace groups.

Kucinich has gone so far as to address Water Rights which are an important and overlooked aspect at the root of the conflict.

Water as a Human Right

Water as a Human Right: Ten Principles

1. All water shall be considered to be forever in the public domain.

2. It shall be the duty of each nation to provide accessible, affordable drinking water to its peoples.

3. There shall be public ownership of drinking water systems, subject to municipal control.

4. Wealthy nations shall provide poor nations with the means to obtain water for survival.

5. Water shall be protected from commodification and exempted from all trade agreements.

6. Water privatization shall not be a condition of debt restructuring, loan renewal or loan forgiveness.

7. Governments shall use their powers to prevent private aggregation of water rights.

8. Water shall be conserved through sustainable agriculture and encouraging plant-based diets.

9. Water resources shall be protected from pollution.

10. Our children should be educated about the essential nature of water for maintaining life.

www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_water.htm
www.muhajabah.com/muslims4kucinich/archives/006176.php


-----------------------------

This is the statement Kucinich released when he abstained from voting on the Tom Delay's "solidarity with Israel legislation" which was nothing more than a cheer-leading resolution for Sharon last year.(You can read that resolution and see the votes here:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/sres247.html)

For Immediate Release

May 2, 2002



Statement of Congressman Dennis Kucinich
On H.R. 392

I declare my support for the State of Israel and for the security of the Israeli people. I also declare my support for a Palestinian state and for the security of the Palestinian people. So I will vote present today because I believe the security of Israel requires the security of the Palestinians.

I will vote present because I believe the United States can do better through honest brokering, and a principled commitment to peaceful coexistence. Today we are missing an opportunity to lead people of the Middle East toward a secure and stable future together.

This resolution equates Israel's dilemma, which is the outcome of the Palestinian's struggle for self-determination with the United States' campaign against the criminal organization, Al Queda. Unfortunately, our own policy is undefined, amorphous, without borders, without limits, and without congressional oversight. For this Congress to place the historic Israeli-Palestinian conflict into the context of the current fashion of US global policy pitches Israelis and Palestinians alike into a black hole of policy without purpose, and conflict without resolution.

The same humanity that requires us to acknowledge with profound concerns the pain and suffering of the people of Israel requires a similar expression for the pain and suffering of the Palestinians. When our brothers and sisters are fighting to the death, instead of declaring solidarity with one against the other, should we not declare solidarity with both for peace, so that both may live in security and freedom?

If we seek to require the Palestinians, who do not have their own state, to adhere to a higher standard of conduct, should we not also ask Israel, with over a half century experience with statehood, to adhere to the basic standard of conduct, including meeting the requirements of international law? ((Dean has NOT done this))

There is a role for Congress and the Administration in helping to bring a lasting peace in the Middle East, however, this resolution does not create that role. After today we will still need to determine a course of action to bring about peace. This course will require multilateral diplomacy, which strengthens cooperation among all countries in the region. It will require focused, unwavering attention. It will require sufficient financial resources. And it will require that our nation have the political will to bring about a true, a fair, and a sustainable resolution of the conflict.

When this Congress enters into the conflict and takes sides between Israel and Palestine we do not help to achieve peace, but the opposite. Similarly, the Administration should consider that when it conducts a war against terrorism without limits the principle of war is quickened everywhere in the world, including the Middle East. When it talks incessantly about invading Iraq, the tempo of war is picked up everywhere. If we truly want peace in the Middle East this resolution is counter productive. I will vote present because I do not believe that this resolution dignifies the role towards creating peace, which this Congress can and must fulfill.



http://www.house.gov/kucinich/press/pr-020502-israeli.htm

[JohnKleeb]

13. but Tiniore he doesnt have a chance

;) lol just messing with you Cass

[Tinoire]

20. Sure he does ;)

All the Peace groups are behind him. Noam Chomsky has endorsed him... Things are looking up for DK because people are demanding track records and examining the issues...


"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002

[tinnypriv]

27. I'll add a correction

Noam hasn't "endorsed" Kucinich.

He thinks he is a principled guy and has a lot of positions that "make sense" to him.

Also, he thinks he would be a serious "alternative" choice for President.

I doubt Noam would ever endorse any political candidate.

[JohnKleeb]

29. of course he does

Just playing with ya. You know how serious I am about this candiancy.

[Gloria]

11. Has Lieberman forgotten what Bill Clinton did for 8 years?? BC

stressed the US as being an HONEST BROKER; he didn't try to oust anybody.
Lieberman is a piece of crap!

And what's with Pelosi and these other "Democrats"?? Don't they REMEMBER
what the policy was before Bush?? Are they rejecting Clinton's policy for
BUSH's??????

I'm calling Pelosi and Lieberman's offices tomorrow...they should just shut the hell up!!! They're enabling this piece of crap in the WH...

[CWebster]

14. Clinton screwed it up

when he tried to force Arafat to accept "Barak's generous offer" which of couse was a criminal sham---Lieberman was whining about it on "hardball" tonight as Arafat's lost opportunity.

The lies about Israel are the greatest lies of all, but of course, there is great financial power and threats to political careers.

Just remember those Lukid neocons--Perle, Wolfowitz et al are the architects redrawing the map of the Middle-East--and there is only one party---the money party.

[StandWatie]

15. not Clinton

He lied about a fuckload of things last time, misrepresented what he was doing over there to the American people and renigged on a promise not to blame either side if talks broke down.

I know Americans aren't usually privy to this but the Palestinians haven't forgotten.

[AnAmerican]

16. Just a slight correction....

While I applaud Dean on his new found neutrality on the I/P issue. I must take the time to mention that Kucinich has had a very "even-handed" policy towards Israel/Palestine from the the very beginning.

I would post a link to his issues page but the Kucinich site is currently down, they are looking into the cause and will fix whatever problem is occuring shortly.

But back to my main point, DK's position on I/P has always been one of his major policy planks. He urges a cessation of hostilities from both sides, the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state and the adherence of Israel to UN resolutions.

Both peoples and cultures have a right to exist. Both peoples and cultures have suffered greatly from the on-going spiral of violence that envelopes the region. Only by disavowing favoritism can we enable a true "roadmap to peace" to be successful.

[JohnKleeb]

17. I noticed the site was down

[Capn Sunshine]

19. I'm all for anything that works.

So tell me, if Dean state later, you know, I've been considering this...We'll send Dennis over there instead
"
Would they howl about a flip flop?

[Tinoire]

21. When did Dean change his position so dramatically?

Howard Dean: Sharon's Man? June 22, 2003 (You should read this one in its entirety)

<snip>

In a major foreign policy America-Israel Public Affairs Committee(AIPAC), [b>he stated unequivocally in an interview with the Jewish weekly The Forward, "My view is closer to AIPAC's view."

"At one time the Peace Now view was important, but now Israel is under enormous pressure. We have to stop terrorism before peace negotiations," he said.
<snip>

Last December, Dean told the Jerusalem Post that he unequivocally supported $8 Billion in US loan guarantees for Israel. "I believe that by providing Israel with the loan guarantees...the US will be advancing its own interest," he said. His unconditional support for the loan package, in addition to $4 Billion in outright grants, went further than even some of the most pro-Israel elements in the Bush administration, like Paul Wolfowitz, who wanted to at least include some vague restrictions like pushing Israel to curtail new settlements and accept a timetable to establish a Palestinian state.

On the illegal Israeli settlements, Dean seems to be waffling of late. A pro-Dean blog quotes his campaign as calling for the ultimate removal of only "a number of existing settlements." (The link back to the official site was no longer operational as of this writing.) However, in what may signal a softening of his position to woo progressive voters in the just passed MoveOn.org PAC Democratic "primary" vote, Dean called last month for "ultimately dismantling the settlements." So which one is it?

<snip>

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/000119.html




****************************

Dean Not Progressive on Mideast

Ahmed Nassef is editor-in-chief of Muslim WakeUp
http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/000119.html
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16280

*********************************

Published on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 by CommonDreams.org

Howard Dean: Hawk in Dove’s Clothing?
by Stephen Zunes

((Hated snipping this one also))

<snip>

In his major foreign policy address to date, a February 17 speech at Drake University in Iowa, Dean blasted the Bush administration’s foreign policy regarding Iraq and several other areas, but – when it came to Israel and Palestine – the former Vermont governor declared that, while the United States should become more engaged, he did not have any fundamental objections with President George W. Bush’s policies. Dean called for an end to Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians, but he did not call for a cessation of Israeli violence against Palestinian civilians. Similarly, there was no call for an end of the Israeli occupation, for Israeli compliance with UN Security Council resolutions, or a withdrawal from Israel’s illegal settlements in the occupied territories or even a freeze on the construction of new settlements.

The liberal wing of America’s Jewish community is represented in the views of Americans for Peace Now (APN), which supports negotiations with the Palestinians based upon the principle of land for peace, that is, Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories in exchange for security guarantees. The conservative wing is represented by the America-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), which supports the policies of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his government’s ongoing occupation and colonization of Palestinian land seized in the 1967 war, repression of the Palestinian population, and refusal to negotiate with the Palestinian leadership.


<snip>

Dean also appears to reject the widespread consensus among Israeli peace activists and Middle East scholars that Palestinian terrorism is a direct outgrowth of the 35-year Israeli military occupation. Instead, Dean seems to argue that terrorism itself is the core issue. He also rejects calls by APN and other liberal Zionist groups that Israel’s requested $12 billion loan guarantee be linked to an Israeli freeze on constructing additional illegal settlements on confiscated Palestinian land, arguing that such aid should instead be unconditional. Pushing for such a dramatic and unconditional increase in financial support for the incumbent government just before Israelis went to the polls in January was widely seen as a not-too-subtle endorsement of Sharon’s re-election.

By the time Dean would become president, Israel could have a different prime minister. Despite his recent election victory, Sharon’s government is not likely to last very long and new Israeli elections could take place within a couple of years. Israeli opposition leader Amram Mitzna, who could become the next prime minister, takes a far more moderate position toward the Palestinians than does Dean. For example, Dean opposes Mitzna’s call for Israel to unconditionally return to peace talks with the Palestinians. One could therefore envision a situation where a President Dean, being even more anti-Palestinian than the Israeli government, would – instead of pushing both sides to compromise for peace – end up pressuring the Israelis to harden their position. Israeli peace activists fear that electing someone like Dean as president of the United States could end up sabotaging a renewed Middle East peace process.

<snip>

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0226-04.htm
--------------

Here were some previous DU discussions I had bookmarked:

Howard Dean supports building the "fence" (Wall) in the West Bank

Jewish Democratic Council seeks to change MoveOn\'s website (Dean reaction)

Dean on Israel
-----------------

[E_Zapata]

23. Thank you for keeping such good records.

Dean is trying to play all sides all the time. He is learning how treacherous that is.

[Tinoire]

24. I/P has been one of my main issues for the last 3 years

I have more if you want because I started watching this one from the start. I'm on DU record for having stated 3 years ago that it would get the Democratic Party in BIG trouble if people weren't able to talk about it openly and come to some sort of an understanding but instead people preferred to bury their heads in the sand, lie, spin, derail conversations, accuse people of being anti-Semites with an agenda, holler that only a few misguided Leftists cared and well... 3 years later, here we are... a huge issue and it's not going to go away quietly I don't think.

The elephant has awoken and is going to crap all over the living room now. How sad...

Isn't it so much easier to love than to hate?

Peace my friend

[E_Zapata]

25. Here we are. What a mess.

Israel/Palestine did not need to be such a huge campaign issue. Just as whether the white democratic candidates supporting or not supporting racial equality did not need to be a campaign issue. Dean is writing the talking points, recklessly.

Thanks for the offer of more Israel/Palestine info. I will pass for now. I can only take in just so much on any given day. LOL I will catch your posts.

what a big mess.

EDIT: Peace to you too! Where are all those beauty queens who promised to bring World Peace when we need them? LOL

[tinnypriv]

28. Here here

ani mevin rak me'at ivrit, ela:

ulai, yesh g'vul l'chol ta'alul? ;-)

shalom or

le'kaim! (tofa'at meva be: uk)

[Woodstock]

32. Translation, please???

I think I know the last two.

Shalom = Hello

le'kaim (thanks to Fiddler on the Roof) = To Life!

[tinnypriv]

34. Well, there is what it is supposed to say, and what it probably says

I'm fairly incompetent at the language so far. :D

"I speak a little Hebrew, but:

Maybe there is a limit to this stupidity/idiocy? ;-)

Peace, or Cheers! (Natural in the UK)"*



* i.e. we're drunks. :evilgrin:

[CWebster]

26. Tinoire...

Why do you think that Kucinich isn't being raked over the coals? Because he isn't a contender. He is an invaluble participant, but he isn't a consideration.

In the last presidential election, Bradley was my preference, then Nader, but I ultimately voted for Gore. If these desperate times didn't demand the winning strategy, I would consider Mosely-Braun or Sharpton over Kucinich, who I find too much of an uptight and negative lecturer. But still, I do not start threads or attempt to smear his name constantly with questions about his past positions.

So, I back our best hope, in the hope that it is our best chance to move away from the circumstances that have stymied our ability to progress on so many fronts. It is almost incomprehensible that Dean's move to a more balanced position would cause such howls from the party establisment. Even Bush felt obligated to temper his position--or the appearance of his position - by recognising Palestinian aspirations. Truly we are through the looking glass here.

So, I find it sad that you would chose to target Dean now, as if to provide evidence(that I am sure you know must of us know already), when he is being attacked for even trying to move in the direction to address the issue. So, what was Kucinich's former position on choice?

Know what I mean?

[Tinoire]

35. Targetting Dean? How about targetting truth and opened eyes?!

No- I've said this loudly from the beginning. Warned people about this and now that the flip flop is happening, you would like me to shut up?

Ask the Clark people. Ain't gonna happen. I'm not giving anyone a free ride. As for Kucinich's position, everytime it has come up (and yes we were beaten to death with it) it was gracefully and sincerely addressed and with more than a dismissive link to his web-site.

You'll have to forgive me if I saw this flip flop coming from the start and didn't fall asleep on the I/P issue.

The best man must stand and/or fall on his own and if Dean is not that man, then a another candidate will be.

Every 4 years the American people fall for the slickest of the salesmen... I would like more than a salesman this time.

And as far as Kucinich not being a contender... think again. I tabled for Kucinich at the San Francisco Peace Festival/Michael Franti even this week-end. The Kucinich table was MOBBED and the Dean table practically ignored... that spoke volumes. Kucinich did not win 76,000 votes for almost 24 percent of the Moveon.org total for his supporters to roll-over months before the primary and give Dean a free-ride.

Dean is a centrist and a moderate who seems to adapt his positions depending which way the wind blows. If you believe he's not then prove me wrong, refute, discuss, but don't expect me to simply shut up because the facts are uncomfortable.

No malice meant or intended.

Kucinich is much more serious of a contender than Dean supporters, the media or the corporations running this country want to admit.


Howard Dean - 33.2% (4292 responses)

Dennis Kucinich - 54.3% (7036 responses)

12947 total responses

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-prez2004story,0,5467485.htmlstory?coll=ny-nationworld-nation-utility&vote8594962=1

[CWebster]

37. Alright

Obviously you didn't know what I meant.

Suppose I take off the fucking gloves and lambaste your self-righteous idealogue from here to kingdom come? Who the hell is that going to serve?

Dean attempts to evolve to a more real reasonable position and you attack him for "flip-flopping" while you broadcast his previous stand. I can beat up kucinich non-stop for a similar 'flip-flop" and you know it.

It isn't fair and the studied attempt to smear is unbecoming of you.

[sandnsea]

31. This is so not the point

The President of the United States has to KNOW these things before he opens his mouth. He has made statements that have been taken as very pro-Israeli. Then he makes statements that sound like he's ignoring Israel as a strategic ally. He needed to be called on it. He has to learn that he's got to choose his words carefully and correctly the first time. His actual position isn't what's being called into question, the words he's using to express it is. And he's also interjected his own opinions into the process claiming Israel will need to 'remove enormous numbers of settlements'. Clinton never told either side what they had to do, it's not the way the process has worked and Dean needed to be called on that. I've said it before, he needs to get his shit together.

[shance]

33. Dean - a solution oriented person, and president.

n/t

[unfrigginreal]

36. Go Get 'Em Capn...

No question that Dean has the correct position on the Middle East. It's going to be tough to fight the entrenched Democrats when they come after him with knoves drawn. I've got faith in him though.