I ventured into the city this morning

[Walt Starr]

Taking the train with my fellow Suburbanites, I couldn't help but think of the concrete wasteland I was about to embark to. The starkly naked and coldy depressing vistas of that abominable state of being was depressing to say the least, especially after a three day weekend in the beautful 'burbs.

This weekend the wetland across the street from our home filled each evening with at least a thousand Canadian Geese on their annual trek back to their Northern climates. The ducks had joined as well, a family which has been living in the wetland as long as we've lived in our house and who will answer to my wife's call of "Babies!"

The redwing blackbirds had also returned with their trilling call for mates.

Yet this morning, I returned to the city, walking the gauntlet of people begging for money from the train station to my building.

Five O'clock cannot come soon enough. I will be able to return to the tranquility of home. My home in the suburbs. Home, where I can dig my hands into the earth and plant the precious seeds. Home, where safety lies.

I once lived in the city. The gunshots rang out nearly nightly by the time we moved to the suburbs. In the suburbs, there are no laws regulating gun ownership. In the city, nobody can legally own a gun, yet the city was where I heard gunshots regularly. I have yet to hear a gunshot from the confines of my home.

The city was a residence. When I moved to the suburbs, I went home.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

1. I love the city

I'd take it over the burbs any day

[Walt Starr]

2. I despise the city

and only go there to work.

You can take the boy out of the country, but you can never take the country out of the boy.

:shrug:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

9. Yeah - to each his own

Don't get me wrong - I love the country and I adore the seaside but I prefer the city.

[fooj]

23. Amen to that!

[Tsiyu]

102. Since when did the Burbs become "country?"

Not to be disrespectful, but they mowed down all the "countryside" to make the subdivisions.

Now, I live in the country. No WalMart, no mall, no McDonalds.

If you like the suburbs, great, but Jeez....

[shrike]

111. I grew up in the country

Dirt roads, farmfields, nearest neighbor about a quarter of a mile away. Like the nature around me, hated all the work. A farm is HARD work; people who live in suburbia/cities have no idea.

Don't live in the country now, but enjoy an occasional visit. There's an almost painterly beauty about rural life.

[Goathead]

3. How old is your community?

Did they mow down a forest to build it or was it old unused ag land?

[Walt Starr]

4. Old unused ag land

In fact, old overused ag land. The soil is clay with almost no organic matter.

I've been teaching my neighbors the wonders of organic gardening to protect the wetland.

[Goathead]

8. Sweet, get them to plant some trees too

I read somewhere that Wisconsin has more forests now than it did when the "settlers" first came there.

[Walt Starr]

12. LOL, we invested in a five year old Autumn Blaze Maple last year

It grew three feet last summer. I look forward to some more growth.

I'm also on the BOD for the association, so I see LOTs of trees in our future.

:D

[tom_paine]

22. Sounds like you are a victim of Bushevik Propaganda

You "read it somewhere", eh?

I'm sorry, I shouldn't be condescending for we have all fallen for Bushevik Pravda at least once.

That sounds like a variant of that debased old Pillboy Pigboy Limba Lie that there are more forests in Amerika today than in 1800.

That is "true", but in the customary Bushevik disinformational way.

Consdier America in 1800. No Louisiana Purchase, no Mexican War Territory, hell, no Washington or Oregon and "54-40 or fight" wasn't even an idea in 1800.

So, that truncated, smallish (about 800,000 sqaure miles) America did indeed have less acreage of forest land than our 3.17 MILLION Sqaure Mile nation today.

You see, there is Truth and then their is Bushevik Truth. The two have very little to do with each other.

[Goathead]

26. Plant Succession: How a Field Becomes a Forest

http://www.env.duke.edu/forest/sucession.htm

Didn't realize the fact-checker police would be on patrol today.:eyes: I'm not sure exactly where I heard/read that, however it makes since, considering that Wisconsin was mostly prairie two-hundred years ago and after that, intensive farmland. Natural succession of forested communities is that old fields inevitably become forested again.

[tom_paine]

39. Thanks for the link...interesting

In a Totalitarian Nation like Imperial Amerika that is swimming in Lies and Propaganda, it is ALWAYS wise to be skeptical.

Naturally, more skepticism should be directed at Totalitarian nations like Communist China and the rapidly transforming Imperial Amerika than needs to be directed at Free World Nations like Old America or Britain & France.

Skepticism should always be applied especially towards those things one agrees with, I just give you an explanation on why myself and so many others are sort of hyper when it comes to Bushevik Talking Points and Propaganda Lies (which clearly, you are not spouting...my apologies).

As I said, interesting ecological reading.

[tabasco]

88. Yessiree - a fantastical republican lie.

Same type of lie they use to justify raping ANWR.

[Ripley]

5. To be fair, I think his post was not against the suburbs.

But about the conformity of it all. I can shop, eat and drink coffee at the same Target, Macaroni Grill, Barnes and Noble and Starbucks in Tuscaloosa, Alabama or in your city, USA. It is bland, boring and completely devoid of uniqueness. Most cities do still have the independent book seller and small cafe run by Mom and Pop. They are the unique Catfish shacks, BBQ joints and deli's you have to look for.

Some people do resent those who are doing okay in this economy and are able to afford homes and vacations. It does get annoying when people assume you are not really a liberal or something if you don't give all of your money away.

Glad you don't live around violence anymore Walt!

[Walt Starr]

7. Our home isn't very big

We live in a Single Family home in a development that was originally supposed to be townhomes, but had been altered to be Chicago style zero lotline homes. We have one of the largest back yards in the development.

[Ripley]

11. The conformity of Housing reflects the homogenization of consumers too.

I remember the looks and laughs I got when I chose burnt sienna shingles as opposed to black ones like 99% of the other houses in my area. I also am an avid organic gardener and find it disgusting that one of my neighbors used Chem lawn. Thankfully he is downstream from me.

Everyone can do their part to put less stress on the environment, and cities aren't exactly the gatekeepers of clean air and water. We all make choices in our lives and it really is sad people are so hellbent determined to find something to divide us with.

[Goathead]

13. Good point

Suburbia is blamed for the destruction of small towns, downtowns, and rural pastoral settings. it wrenches my heart when I see an old farm or old building torn down for the sake of another big box parking lot. The problem I have is with wanton development that is just slapped up haphazardly all over the place. This whole bypass, strip mall, "Anywhere USA" phenomenon that is turning the country into a bunch homogeneous, consumer drones has got to stop.

[Ripley]

14. It is becoming fashionable to reject it.

If you can find a copy of Organic Style magazine, this month has an article about Green housing popping up all over the country. It's supply and demand.

[quinnox]

6. hehe

I see two posts now on this subject with very different points of view.

[Wind Dancer]

10. Cities vary from one area to another.

Interesting thread, a knee-jerk reaction to another poster's complaint about chains and cookie cookers. I think you missed the point.

[Willy Lee]

15. We come from all walks of life.

My friend lives in the Mission District in SF and couldn't see herself living anywhere else. The vibrancy and diversity keeps her going every day.

My sister lives in a McMansion that backs onto a golf course in Tucson. She has a beautiful view of the mountains and abundant wildlife in her yard, as well as space to move around.

I love the country- a small house on a couple of acres outside the city limits where I can have chickens, lots of room for my dogs to run and a huge garden.

We are all democrats, we all despise the shrub, and we are all living our own lives without putting each other down for our choices.

[The empressof all]

16. Just as neighborhoods in the city differ so do burbs

I live in a burb with a thriving main street. Sure we have our share of mega stores, strip malls, and chain resturants but certainly that's not all there is here. What I find interesting is that several of my city friends drive to the burbs to do their shopping on the weekends as parking is more available. They can hit the Costco, Trader Joes, Best Buy and Bed Bath and Beyond, and have a great Thai or Indian Buffet for lunch all in one trip. Plus they don't have to pay for parking.

When I was younger I loved living in Manhattan--If I could afford to have a 3 bedroom co-op there I'd live there again in a heartbeat. Now that I'm on the West Coast, I work and live in the Burbs. It works for us.

[MadHound]

17. Give it ten years, and you burb will be urban

Frankly, in many ways I find 'burbs obscene. From the fearful, bigoted quality of gated communities to the endless, mindless sprawl, to the mind-numbing sameness of all of the houses and commercial buildings, to the "community associations" that tell you what you can and cannot do with your own property, I think that the 'burbs are absolutely awful. At least a city doesn't try to pretend to be what it isn't. It smacks you in the face and says "I'm urban and I'm proud". 'Burbs try to be coy, and fool you into believing that they're country, when they are really just as urban as any city, without the amenities that a true city has.

If you want to say you're in the country, then you can't live on a paved road and have a mall within two miles. If you do, you're in a 'burb.

Out where I live, there are not only geese and red wing blackbirds, there are pheasants, hawks, owls, herons, and other birds to numberous to mention. There are literally flocks of birds that cover the sky. There are deer, and rabbits, skunks and opposums, bobcats, coyotes, bears and the occaisional mountain lion, critters that can actually do damage. That is the country, in all of its glory and danger. The 'burbs are faux country, made for middle class Americans who can't deal with the real rural enviroment. And sad to say, it is these sprawling developmental wastelands that are eating up our rural lands, and destroying the enviroment of many animals and plants. God forbid that a 'burbanite gets a native plant in their lawn, they grab the RoundUp and go right out to poison nature.

You may like the 'burbs friend, that is your right. But frankly, I think that they are the worst place in the world to live. Give me either the true city, or true country. Don't give me lukewarm milktoast, and try to tell me it's the real deal.

[Walt Starr]

18. There are coyotes here, too.

The herons and egrets haven't returned yet. They usually show up about the same time as the Swans.

The red tail hawks are all over.

[MadHound]

19. Perhaps, but it is still faux country friend

And not even a very good fake at that. I walk out onto my deck and hear nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, but the sounds of nature around me. Walk out onto the back deck in a 'burb, and you hear your neighbors, the traffic, etc. etc.

Mind numbing burbs, you like 'em, you keep 'em. And make sure you keep them far away from me.

[Walt Starr]

20. Well, if I drive two miles from my home

I'm in a major cornfield. Two blocks from my home is a soybean field.

Definitely still the suburbs, but the coutnry ain't far away.

[MadHound]

30. And in two years, that cornfield will be more 'burbs

And in ten years, you'll be in the city. So you can then move to the burbs. Etc Etc, rinse and repeat. And meanwhile that sprawl continues to grow, eating up land and resources.

[Walt Starr]

31. So long as population increases

the need for homes increases.

Such is life. I don't see us moving to zero population growth and quite honestly, I look at this phenomenon being a GOOD THING in blue states like mine. Hopefully we'll get back a couple of seats in the House that we lost with the 2000 census.

[IrateCitizen]

34. Normal homes, or 2500 sf gargantuan homes???

That seems to be the real question surrounding suburban growth. In fact, population growth sometimes has absolutely nothing to do with suburban sprawl.

Did you know that there are significant areas in this country that are experiencing near-zero, or even NEGATIVE population growth, but yet are still undergoing suburban sprawl. Binghamton, NY is such an area. So is Pittsburgh.

It's not population growth that is fueling the move to the suburbs. It is the failure of the US to invest adequately in public spaces and infrastructure in cities combined with the desire of young urban professionals to have a 2500 sq ft home with a private yard while still working in the city. Of course, they also want all of the attendant urban conveniences -- shopping, curbed streets, etc. -- with the feeling of being "in the country".

I'd much rather we take the tack of Western Europe. If you don't own a working farm, you live in either the city or the town. That way, open space is preserved for EVERYONE, we actually have communities that are walkable and nice to live in, we preserve the environment, and EVERYBODY wins. Well, everybody except for the developers making money hand-over-fist fueling this massive suburban sprawl that more resembles a virus than anything else.

[Walt Starr]

36. If you don't like it, don't move there

But don't try to tell me where I can and can't live or try and tell me that somehow, the way you live is "liberaler than thou."

[IrateCitizen]

92. Tone down your emotion, Walt, and try to listen to what I'm saying...

You're taking everything that is said in a negative way about the suburbs as a personal attack on you, and it's not meant as such.

FWIW, I live in a suburb of NYC. I commute to the city every day via the Metro North RR, which is a 5-minute walk from my home. But the area I live in in not traditional "suburbs", it's Westchester County. The "suburbs" here are actually small towns in which you can walk or bike to a lot of your errands. They've still managed to maintain that "small town" feel, but at a hefty cost of living.

My wife and I live in a 2-BR co-op. But we have completely given up on the idea of getting a house -- they're too damned expensive. Plus, I'm not a big fan of the "values system" that dominates our area -- it's all about money and status. So, for that reason (among others), we're moving further north to New Paltz, NY before we start a family.

Now that all that is in the open, please allow me to continue. The fact is that suburban sprawl is extremely environmentally destructive in many ways. The cul-de-sac developments of nothing less than 2400 sq ft homes from which you have to drive to go ANYWHERE are not a good way of planning neighborhoods. The houses use a tremendous amount of building materials to contruct, they often take significant amounts of energy to heat and cool, and they promote an insular culture in which people don't regularly interact because there are no "common spaces".

These things aren't "knocks" at you -- they're simple facts of the typical modern suburban lifestyle. And I'm surprised to see you falling back on a line of accusing others of trying to "dictate how you live", much in the same way that some defend their "right" to drive a behemoth SUV that sucks gas and pollutes the air.

[bunkerbuster1]

67. Funny, 2500 sq. ft. homes are MINIMUM near where I live

people start a-frettin' if they think anything much smaller is going up.

[Walt Starr]

70. LOL, ours is 1500 Square feet

and we have the largest house in the subdivision.

[bunkerbuster1]

80. We'd had ~1,400 square feet

in our previous home (a 50-year-old brick Cape), we were fine with that. (mind you, that square footage was carved out of every available basement and attic space we could find.)

Some months ago, I came across a comment someone had made in the local paper's "Vent" column that went something like "Four homes per acre isn't a neighborhood, it's a slum!"

My first response was revulsion, but then I chuckled. Our "little" home sat on 1/7th of an acre, and yet it sold for a lot more than the typical 2500 square foot home here in Red State Hell.

[MadHound]

50. Yes, you are again correct

But endless sprawl is not a good answer, especially while cities are dying due to white flight. It is a more responsible growth plan to revitalize a city, offering reasonbly priced housing, than to endlessly sprawl. In a city, you have the benefits of more compact growth, social and cultural emenities, without the need of commuting twenty miles or more one way to get to them. Out in the burbs, you have to travel virtually everywhere by car, for most suburban public transportation is woeful at best. How long is your commute every day?

[Walt Starr]

51. My commute is about 7 minutes to the train station

then a 39 minute express train to the city with one stop at the station right after mine.

Reverse commute is the same in reverse.

[datasuspect]

93. i hear ya

on the pure country thing.

if there is a wal mart/home depot/other large cube anchor tenant strip malls sprinkled liberally - you ain't in the country.

[MXMLLN]

25. There are many Americans which prefer ...

... the middle-of the road character of the 'burbs.

There's nothing particularly superior about preferring the extremes (i.e of city and/or unspoiled country).

[Walt Starr]

28. I should look into population studies of suburbs vs. cities

I would predict there are moer people living in suburbs than in the actual cities. If so, Democrats could turn around the suburban vote and they'd win most states.

[MadHound]

33. You are correct

However suburban development is trashing our enviroment. White flight to the oatmeal suburbs continues to grow, while our cities rot and our enviroment is paved over. And it is a vicious cycle of growth and flight that is causing vast urban sprawl, feeding our addiction to oil, and ruining vast acreages of land. If one wants to live in the country, move there. If one wants to live in the city, move there. But trying to have it both ways, and getting the worst of both worlds ruins the rest of the surrounding country for everybody else, depriving urban areas of a tax base, and paving over rural America. All you get in the burbs is the chance to fool yourself into thinking your in the country, yet retaining all of the worst effects of urbanization with none of the benefits.

[Walt Starr]

38. Link please

Please back up your assertions with some proof. Or are thes merely *opinions*?

[MadHound]

45. Let see, go check out

Detroit, St. Louis, Kansas City, and most other large cities. Even mid size cities such as Springfield Mo, OK City, etc are experiencing these same vicious cycles of growth. You may not wish to believe me, but it is true. As for proof, all you have to do is look at the map, and compare it to maps from ten, fifteen and twenty years ago. Our cities are sprawling out of control, paving over the land, putting up endless rows of cookie cutter houses and gargantuan malls.

Look, I understand that you like where you live, and that is fine. But don't try to deny the reality of what suburban America is, an endless sprawl, offering up few of the benefits of a city, and even fewer benefits of the country. Tell me friend, other than a few of the bright ones, can you truly see the vast panalopy of stars at night? Or is the light pollution turning your burb into a pinkish orange twilight?

[Walt Starr]

47. Now you're projecting association as causation with no evidence

The reverse might also be true. Urban sprawl may be the result of decline in the cities rather decline in the cities being the result of urban sprawl.

You've reacted emotionally rather than rationally. I put it to you, the decline in the cities is what has caused a suburban flight by the masses. Graft and corrupstion by Daley lining the pockets of his cronies lead directly to me moving to Aurora.

I have mmore evidence to back that statemenet up than you do because I experienced it!

[NervousRex]

63. And your anecdotal musings are evidence?

No one here can argue with your experiences. Nationwide trends in urban areas over the past decades shows your situation to be the exception, not the rule.

[Walt Starr]

65. Link please

Please, provide a link to hard data to support your assertion that nationwide trends suggest suburban sprawl is repsonsible for urban decline rather than the opposite.

[NervousRex]

73. Google metropolitan tax policy

and do you own research on how city dwellers are subsidizing the basic infrastructure that makes sprawl possible...Now this may not be ocurring in your little corner of Paradise, but in Minnesota, we in the core cities, are being absolutely screwed.

[Walt Starr]

77. sorry, I'm not engaged in this debate to support your positions

If you ahve no evidence to back up an assertion, that assertion becomes opinion and cannot be considered as fact.

[NervousRex]

82. If you are seriously doubting

the fact that more populous core cities with higher tax rates are carrying the tax weight for 'burbs and outstate areas, then I will bother with dumping links in this thread. Otherwise, to hell with it.

[Walt Starr]

85. I seriously doubt it

I do. The reson for the high tax rates is to line the pockets of the city politician's cronies. Chicago is the PERFECT example of that, as is Detroit!

[dean_dem]

97. I'm about to jump out of my chair here reading this....

What Madhound has been saying about growth patterns in the suburbs is absolutely right. Check out the Brookings Institution Website for starters if you want evidence, they have a multitude of reports on the correlation between growth of the suburbs in the form of White Flight and the decline of the cities. That should give you a few hours of reading to get started.

Second, look up the book Inside Game, Outside Game by David Rusk. It completely debunks the myth touted by people like Newt Gingrich that the only reasons cities can't sustain themselves is poor management and lining politicians pockets. Another good book to look up is The Life And Death of American Cities. That should help. I'm can't give you an entire Urban Policy course in one thread, but its pretty well established that the suburbs are choking cities fiscally and socially, and the cities are left to foot the bill.

And by the way, you seem pretty eager to fight here, but I'm not trying to attack your way of life. But your suburban area as you describe it seems to be a notable exception from the McMansions, gated communities, callous waste of resources and class segregation that marks most suburban areas. You have to at least acknowledge that.

ETA: I just noticed you said you live outside Chicago. Just drive out West of the city, you should see a good deal of what I'm talking about. Dateline or one of those shows even did a special on that particular area a while back, about segregated communities, White Flight, and urban sprawl.

[Walt Starr]

99. It's bullshit

White Flight is a driect result of the decline of the city, not the reverse.

[dean_dem]

103. Um, okay, you said it so it must be true.

You might want to let the Brookings Institute know, all those scholars who have spent years and years studying the issue will be disappointed that all their hard work and research has been a waste.

Sorry, I thought you wanted to debate. I didn't realize this was Walt Starr's ego-stroking thread. I'll yield the floor. That still doesn't negate the fact (from the other responses I've read) that you have no earthly idea what you're talking about.

[Walt Starr]

104. I've looked at the bullshit they're passing off

I don't buy it, nor do I have to.

[dean_dem]

105. I know...damn lib'rul media.

Sorry it doesn't fit your narrow worldview. I guess there's always the American Enterprise Institute.

[MadHound]

71. Well if I'm reacting emotionally, then apparently I'm in good company

Here is a good book for you to read on this topic: Once There Were Greenfields: How Urban Sprawl Is Undermining Americas's Environment, Economy, and Social Fabric
by F. Kaid Benfield, Matthew Raimi, Donald D. T. Chen <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1893340171/102-8580947-3303343?v=glance>

And if you're simply basing this on experience, then I would be willing to wager dollars to doughnuts that your experience is in the minority. Based on my experience, and those of families and friends, it is that white flight has caused the decline of cities. You really have to look no further than the past forty years of Detroit history. Or for a mid sized city, check out the history of Springfield Mo. It is a sad commentary on how we live, and how we still hate the "others".

Look Walt, if you wish to live in the 'burbs, more power to you. But don't try these inane rationalizations to justify your stance. You come off sounding like a kid with their hand caught in the cookie jar. Don't sweat it, it isn't like we're going to have you turn in your progressives card just because of where you live. Most all liberals and progressives have some contradictory part of their life that seems at odds with progressive believes. It is part of being human. I'm happy that you're doing well out in the burbs, and I wish you nothing but continued happiness there. But it just isn't for me.

And something for you to remember when the shit hits the fan, any urban area is only three days away from deadly food riots. Yep, there's only three days supply of food in any city. So when the shit hits the fan, and Peak Oil shuts down those fuel inefficient cities, remember that you have friends out here in the country, so come on out. Just remember that the squirrels out here are as big as most cats:evilgrin:

[Walt Starr]

79. Again with the canards and no proof

Look, you can go ahead and believe that suburban sprawl caused white flight when the exact opposite is the truth.

As far as Peak Oil, I don't buy the garbage. It's junk science with no basis in actual fact. If we have already peaked, there are many more years to go before we are out and the decline will not be overnight, thus giving time for other technologies to be implemented.

I don't believe in Armageddon when it comes in the form of bible thumping nonsense from the right any more than I believe it when it comes in the form of hysterical ravings from the Left.

[MadHound]

83. Gee, Walt, don't take this so personally

I'm trying to point out a few facts(notice I linked to a bood for you to read, something more than you have provided), and you're acting as though I had kicked your dog.

You wish to live in the 'burbs, fine. But I think that you should be fully cognizant of what your lifestyle is costing our society. You don't like having your face rubbed in it, well too bad, you were the one who moved to the 'burbs. Everybody makes choices friend, some are just wiser than others.

[Walt Starr]

84. And moving to the burbs was an incredibly WISE choice, IMO n/t

[MXMLLN]

55. Most American cities are re-vitalizing ...

... and yet, the growth of the suburbs continue ... and so they shall continue, in response to the growth in population.

Some whites are returning to the cities ... and many non-whites are establishing themselves in suburbia.

Suburban sprawl is really nothing more than the natural growth of your beloved cities.

[shrike]

98. I like a town, myself

A real town, one that sprouted up many years ago and still has a walkable downtown, like mine does.

Pity so few downtowns have real shopping anymore. Used to be you could walk downtown and take care of all your needs, including clothes for the winter. Now, you have to walk (or drive) here and there to purchase a few specialty things -- fresh meats, Italian specialties, fresh breads and pastries, flowers, etc. But there are few good little mom and pop restaurants in town with reasonably priced food. No fast food chains for us, unless you count Subway.

The best towns are those with quirky pieces and history to them, and lots of cool, historic buildings. My town is not like that, unfortunately. But it'll do -- and, since we have the largest lot in town, we see hawks, lots of songbirds, possums, raccoons (whole family of them lives nearby), rabbits and the occasional deer.

[Withywindle]

21. I live in the city and I love it!

Probably the same city you're talking about, no?

Yes, we have occcasional gunshots.

I can also get on a bus, and in 15 minutes I can be in a warm club listening to dense, intense metal or dazzling, space-travelling free jazz, or swirling, rich Hungarian Rom dance music.

Live theater? Oh FUCK yeah.

What would I like to eat first? I can have vindaloo or chiles rellenos or sashimi. I can humiliate myself practicing my pathetic Portuguese at the Brazilian grocery.

Or I can stay "in" and invite my friend who lives on the next block to come over and watch movies. Literally a three-minute walk (We catsit for each other too).

Daytime, a day off, would I like to lose myself? Always. Let's see -- Joseph Cornell boxes, Ancient Egypt, or beluga whales?

Beach? Swimming? We can do that! (Not right now of course, but I can just bundle up and watch the cold grey waves crack against icy piers, and that's almost as satisfying.) I love skyscrapers, though. They're as beautiful to me as mountains, just in a very different way (especially at night). I love rows and rows of prewar three-flats. I especially love slightly-run-down areas with old ads and signs from decades past still visible. I love to think about all the people who've lived here before me and will live here after (can't stand to live in a new building. Feels sterile. Makes my skin crawl) and wonder who they were--and find out, if I can! My favorite museum in the world is the Lower East Side Tenement Museum in New York, because it shows precisely that: past decades of working-class daily life in many cultures and languages.

These are the things that are important to me, especially the live music part (I go to at least one show a week, sometimes more). And the best thing is -- I haven't owned a car in a decade! No gas/insurance/tickets/repairs/parking worries.

I grew up on an unpaved road in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Very little artifical light at night, and the only sounds the wind and the whip-poor-whills and frogs and the "neighbors'" dog (bout a quarter-mile away). Oh, and gunshots. You hear them more there than where I live in the city, actually. I love to go back and visit my parents and watch the birds in their yard and see the wreckage of the pole bird feeder destroyed by a bear last year. But I wouldn't move back there permanently if I were paid by the hour to do so.

I've never lived in a suburb at all. Can't see why I would. It seems like the worst of both worlds to me. :shrug: But it takes all kinds. :)

[shrike]

100. You live in Chicago, per chance?

Your remark about the waves crashing on the icy piers sounded familiar.

I love cities, too, and towns, as I said in an earlier post. Hate the 'burbs; too sterile and boring. Problem for me is, it's so damned expensive living in a city. Living in a town, like I do, I can afford a house that I own outright, and still practice my craft as an artiste (yeah, I'm one of those.) Plus, I like to plant things too much, stick my fingers in the dirt and all that.

I still fantasize about living in a real cool city someday, like Chicago or New Orleans.

[Withywindle]

113. Yup!

Chicago has its pros and cons like any place, but I find it very hospitable. Even in the winter! (I'm one of those sickos who likes cold weather and snow.) The cultural life here is awesome! Maybe not as intense and non-stop as NYC, but not as cutthroat and status-obsessed either. (I've lived in both places).

I know a lot of people who have yards here and do gardening, but a small city lot may not be enough for you. :)

[GumboYaYa]

24. Racoons have this funny habit.

When they find food, they eat all the food they need and then urinate on what is left so no one else can eat it. Down south that's what we mean when we say someone is cooning you.

You're just cooning the city. You go there to work and depend on the city for your liveliehood, but as soon as you've gotten what you want out of it you piss all over the city. That's the nature of suburbia.

I despise the suburbs, but I don't go there. I don't depend on the suburbs for anything and I can live my life without ever stepping foot in the suburbs. In fact I don't, b/c the place is souless in my book.

When you can say that about the city, you are entitled to your rant.

[Walt Starr]

27. I resent that statement

Do you even know the definition of "metropolis"?

Currently, this is the Chicago-Joliet-Naperville metro area.

And Daley makes plenty of money off the suburbanites who work in the city.

You don't know me. You don't know how much of what I earn goes back to Chicago.

[GumboYaYa]

37. Cry me a river....

but the truth is that Chicago is an excellent example of the destruction of a city's tax base and resources that result from urban sprawl.

As a mater of fact I am very familiar with the term "Metropolis." I even read it in a report named "Chicago Metropolis 2020." Some other things I read in that report include the fact that the Chicago metropolis has over 1,300 local governmental units, all of which compete for tax revenue. I read that in Chicago, not only is the city deteriorating b/c of the impact of urban sprawl, but even the first ring of suburbs has started to deteriorate. I also read that Chicago has some of the highest concentrations of impovershed people within its city boundaries of any city in America.

The reality is that Mayor Daley doesn't make anywhere near enough money from the suburbanites who work in the city.

So maybe I don't know you, but I do know the Chicago metropolis and the horrendous impact that the surban sprawl you advocate has had on the area.

[Walt Starr]

41. Cry me a river back

If Daley wasn't such a dracomnian asshole and actually did something to make the city more affordable and livable, we might never have moved to the suburbs., The fact of the matter is, we were able to purchase a home with three times the square footage of the condos available in the area of the city neighborhood we lived in beffore we moved, FOR ONE-THIRD LOWER THE PRICE! Add to that a large back yard and a detached two car garage so we don't have to circle the neighborhood for thirty minutes hoping a parking spot comes open and you start to see why the city holds nothing for me other than a job.

Screw Daley. He's an idiot whose time is loooong past. The machine politics of Chicago is more to blame for their monetary issues than anything else. If you think that suburbanites have something to do with the revenue issues, lookm to the graft and corruption in the Daley administration to find the REAL places all the money went. The money is there, sitting in the pockets of Daley cronies!

[GumboYaYa]

43. So run off to your safe little suburban home and hide, but don't come

bitching to us about how you hate the city. Suburbanites are part of the problem and not part of the solution. Until you start focusing on how to fix the cities instead of fleeing them, you have no standing to complain as far as I'm concered.

[Walt Starr]

44. Anti-suburbanite bigotry gets you nowhere

Go ahead. Blame all the troubles of the world on Suburbanites. It's a canard and you know it!

PROVE that suburbs are the problem. All I see is unfounded rhetoric.

[GumboYaYa]

46. Why don't you start with the report I cited already?

"Chicago Metropolis 2020" is an extensive look at the impact of sprawl on the region in which you live. It is sponsored by the business community in Chicago, not a bunch of tree-hugging bird watchers. The report is 118 pages and deals very specifically with the impact of sprawl in the Chicago Metropolis.

I did my homework on these issues a long time ago. It sounds to me like you are running off at the mouth with very little actual knowledge other than "what Walt likes".

[Walt Starr]

48. It offers no proof, only supposition

I put it to you that the opposite is actually true. Flight from the cities is a direct result of the decline wihtin the cities after years of graft ad corruption which lined the pockets of city politicians and their cronies.

Hell, that explains a lot more than the reverse!

[GumboYaYa]

54. I'll put it to you a different way, flight from the cities occured b/c

white folks didn't want to live near black folks or have their kids go to school with black kids, cause black folks are dangerous. There is the reason for the flight to suburbia then and now.

You clearly have not been following the many varied studies and reccommendations of Chicago Metropolis 2020. To say ths group is engaged in nothing but supposition is just pure lack of information on your part. Check out the resources available at his link: http://www.chicagometropolis2020.org/25_3.htm if you have any true desire to deepen your understanding.

Personally, I think you just like playing the victim whenever someone talks about the dangers of urban sprawl. That is quickly becoming tiresome in the face of your willful ignorance.

[Walt Starr]

57. Personally, I think you're looking for a bogeyman to explain

why the cities are in decline and have found a convenient scapegoat in the suburbs.

[Walt Starr]

62. Certainly not the reason I moved from the city

I moved because I could not afford to own anything in the city yet could own a nice home with a yard and a garage in the suburbs. I also did not care for the gunshots in the neighborhood and that guy getting shot to death in the alley sort of bugged me.

And my neighbor moved out of the city, not because of race, but because he was concerned for his son who was being pressured to join gangs. He's Filipino. His son was being pressured to join a Filipino gang.

[ieoeja]

87. Worried about crime you move to AURORA?

[Walt Starr]

90. I haven't seen a bit of crime in the area of Aurora I live in

Of course, I could throw a rock from my back yard nad hit Naperville, too.

[datasuspect]

96. chicago

especially on the north side, has seen a tremendous revitalization. lots of cosmetic infrastructure projects and new condo developments which spoil the flavor of any neighborhood they pop in.

incidentally, you can drive through some of the ghettoes and still see political billboards from when the last whites still lived there (like in the 1970s).

chicago is like 3 or 4 cities.

[datasuspect]

94. chicago metro area

is tremendously large.

i figure i'm home when i hit the traffic pattern (the far out suburbs) or at least when i can see the sears tower.

i wonder how far the city will spread in the next 50 years.

still, i have no problem with people living in joliet, plainfield, naperville, whatever - just stop trying to turn the CITY into a suburb.

one of the most appalling things is seeing huge box anchor tenant strip malls taking up huge tracts in a largely congested city.

[Withywindle]

114. Hell yes, thank you!

I hate those fugly big box things--and damn isn't the traffic already bad enough without these chain monstrosities with those miles of parking lots?

I can see driving if you're shlepping a week's worth of groceries--but if you're just picking up the drycleaning and a movie?

And what's with the goddamn urbanites in the SUVs? When was the last time you took that thing on a half-frozen unpaved road up a mountain, dumbass? Yeah, didn't think so. Potholes don't count as "off-road."

[datasuspect]

95. dupe

my bad

[Cocoa]

29. careful around those redwings

they'll divebomb your head, especially during mating season.

[Walt Starr]

32. I've seen them do it to others

but I think they are rather intelligent birds and know that my wife and I are the ones filling up the bird feeders they use. They never divebomb us!

:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Withywindle]

40. Cabrini-Green is all but gone...

It's some of the most expensive real estate in the city now. Poor people being pushed out -- it's happening everywhere. And where do they go? Sometimes the suburbs. Which just pushes the white-flight crowd further and further out into what used to be rural land....

You know, Cabrini at its "peak" was a pretty awful place. But it was also a community in its own right. Lots of people now are still as poor as they ever were, but they've lost their social life, their feeling of rootedness, their convenient access to downtown...


Personally I like where I am. I feel grateful I can afford to stay in the city (though I've had to change neighborhoods several times) High density, on land that was rendered ecologically unrecognizable long before my grandparents were born.

[Walt Starr]

42. Nope, Chicago holds NOTHING for me

Sorry, I don't do meth and don't appreciate the personal attack insinuating I do.

Chicago is too costly and Daley pisses away what revenues he does get by lining the pockets of his cronies. I get three times the living space, plus a large yard, plus a two car garage at two-thirds the price of a condo in a crime rdden area of Chicago.

Nothankyou.

[HamdenRice]

49. Think of how much more wetlands ...

would have been there for the geese and ducks if your suburban subdivision had not been built.

[Walt Starr]

52. LOL, they will not and CANNOT build on wetlands

The basements would flood.

Sorry, that suggestion is just tooooooo hilarious. They couldn't build on the wetland because it's federally protected and the cost to attempt to develop would be enormous even if they could!

What's more is that more wetlands are being added in the form of retaining ponds, and those get used every bit as much as our natural wetland buy the wildlife!

[HamdenRice]

53. If the wetlands are across the street from your home ...

then it sounds like your house was built on wetlands. Before the repugs demolished wetlands regulations, the definition used to include any area within 100 yards (I believe -- or it might have been 1/4 mile) or so of any area permanently innundated, as well as flood plains, and areas with high water tables.

If the geese are across the street from you, my friend, wetlands habitat was destroyed for your house to be built.

[Walt Starr]

56. Nope, it used to be a cornfield

Three years ago, it was a cornfield.

The soybean field to the West of the wetland cannot be developed because it is too low.

My basement floor sits 2 feet above the highest flood level recorded for the area. There is quite a dropoff from the road to the wetland itself. My house sits on a hill above the road.

[HamdenRice]

59. Your answer is non-sequitur

The old use of the land is irrelevant. In fact many wetlands were plowed and used as corn fields. In fact, if the land was planted with native prarie grasses, and ecologically, the geese you so admire would have more habitat.

The scientific definition of wetlands is not based on whether it is actually "wet" but whether it is part of wetlands habitat. If you are across the street from a wetlands, you are affecting the wetlands habitat. Do you think that the oil slick that your car and neighbors' cars leave on your street (across which you view the geese) does not run-off into the wetlands? How would you like to drink water laced with petroleum run-off?

I know it is difficult sometimes to admit that our own lifestyles can damage the local environment, but this one seems pretty obvious.

[Walt Starr]

64. SHEESH

1) Maybe you drive a piece of shit that leaves an oil slick, but I don't.

2) The road was there LONG before the development was there.

3) You're grasping at straws to blame the big bad suburbanites for everything wrong in this country.

[HamdenRice]

68. Once again economic interest trumps reason

We've been through this before with your suburban paens. Because you have invested in your little subdivision, we know, you won't listen to reason.

If you cannot accept that there would be more habitat if your subdivision had been restored as native prarie, then there really isn't much to talk about because you are taking an impossible position -- a position driven by your own pre-commitment to defend your economic interests, rather than a position based on obvious reason and facts. Do you believe that the subdivision has created more habitat for the wetland flora and fauna next door? Is that your position?

That goes for the subdivision and the footprint of the road, which rather than being used to service the subdivision could have been restored, if there had not been demand for mcmansions.

Once again, Walt Starr resorts to insult rather than reason: why do you think I drive a "piece of shit"? In the pre-Bush EPA, the run off of residue of tires and auto exhaust has always been a concern, and it comes from new as well as old cars.

[Walt Starr]

72. Well fine,. let's all move into mud huts

and stop this madness!

:eyes:

Your canards are tiring.

[jdj]

60. I noticed the redwings were back, too.

the most beautiful call, but they dominate everything but the mockingbirds around here.

[Walt Starr]

75. We had a female cardinal at the bird feeder this weekend

Teh trees are really starting to get bigger so we expect more songbirds as tiome goes by.

I'll knbow it's really spring when the finches hit the thistle feeder.

[jdj]

78. we always have about 12-15 pairs of cardinals in the winter

the redwings arrived last year though, and when they show up, they become dominant we have about three males, some with the red and white wing, and others with the yellow and orange, which may be a different species.

We also have a couple of carolina blue birds.

Unfortunately, my Dad has outdoor cats, which massacre the babies. I run them up to the wildlife rehab place to save them. It sucks he actually puts out birdhouses, you can't tell him anything. This year I am going to put rubber snakes in all of the birdhouses come March.

[jdj]

58. canada geese nest at the industrial site where I used to

pick up cleaning supplies.

you cannot prove anything by the presence of formerly migratory Canada geese, they are everywhere now, because they have acclimated themselves and become permanent residents.

They can survive around any body of water, including lots of man-made lakes and ponds, they don't need wetlands.

[Walt Starr]

69. Do blue herons, swans, wood ducks?

How about egrets? I've heard a barred owl at night. There are red tailed hawks all over, but we've also seen a Cooper's hawk. We also get a few pairs of American coots nesting in the wetland annually.

[jdj]

74. one blue heron.

the most beautiful thing.

I don't see how these creatures breed, I have never seen more than one at a time.

She is like a ghost springing up out of nowhere, I've seen her two days in a row.

I've never been fortunate enough to live near where swans nest.

[Walt Starr]

76. The most blue herons I've seen at one time was eight

in the wetland across the street.

[jdj]

81. I have an eerie relationship with those birds.

someone told me they are a strength totem according to native americans. I do always seem to see them when I am having a hard time.

Once I was at a public wildlife sanctuary, and one was in the middle of the field between the pond and the road, and as I walked my dog, it walked in the field beside me at the same pace. It was the strangest thing, it did not fly away, and didn't seem as skittish as usual. It just walked slowly beside me (although about 20 feet away) as I walked along the path. It eventually flew away which was a relief because I thought it might be sick. I've never had that happen again, but I will never forget it.

[Stop_the_War]

61. oh puh-leeze...

What are you trying to say? Do you hate the cities? I love the cities, suburbs are boring. I hear gunshot-like sounds all the time at night, and I live in an apartment complex. It's either your imagination, someone's firecrackers, or something. But I doubt it's a gun.

[Walt Starr]

66. Yeah, I guess that guy who died with a bullet in his chest in the alley

the year before I moved must have been playing around with firecrackers.

:eyes:

BTW, this thread offered a differing view from the following thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3158316

[ieoeja]

86. Personally, I despise the 'burbs.

I grew up on a farm seven miles south of the nearest town which, at pop ~2500, was the largest town in the county. I still love the country.

Went to college where I didn't know peoples mores, customs and colloquialisms because I was an ignorant hillbilly. And they didn't know my mores, customs and colloquialisms because I was a backwards hillbilly. After college I found a job in a near western suburb of Chicago and moved to this area. For two years I lived in the western suburbs where I was treated every bit as badly as when I was in college.

And I lost count of the number of times I was stopped by the cops. Aside from the speed traps along River Road, I was stopped because my car was too old. I was stopped because my hair was too long. I was even stopped walking along a road that passed through a forest preserve one night because apparently someone walking longer than a block looks suspicious. (Shortly after he left a truck full of guys tried jumping me, but I don't hold that against the 'burbs; shit can happen anywhere at anytime.)

Finally, after two years I decided to brave the city where it turned out hillbilly is just one more ethnic group; and as one that speaks English (sort of), more welcome than most. As for the African-American hostility I had been taught to expect, I quickly came to realize that subculture was more Rural- than African-. Get me together with an old black man, and we'll quickly start reminiscing about life down home.

The country is peaceful and serene, but homogeneous and bland. The city is still always different and exciting, but too crowded and busy to ever approach the relaxing quality of the country. The suburbs, aside from the natives being unwelcoming, combine homogeneous and bland with crowded and busy: the worst of both worlds fused into one.

This farmboy will take the city over the suburbs any day.

[goodhue]

89. What year was your subdivision built?

Do you have sidewalks? (a corollary question)

Please realize much of the criticism of new suburbia (or increasingly exurbia) relates to its unceasing destruction of landscape through umitigated cookie cutter growth. The problem is the thousands of newly minted five bedroom, three car garage houses just a stones throw and short car ride to brand new big box retail in a community that was a simple rural town just ten years ago.

[Walt Starr]

91. Construction began in 2001

and completed last October.

Yes, we have sidewalks.

[Tsiyu]

106. Maybe you are happy where you are

That's wonderful.

The post you copycatted had more to do with conspicuous consumerism than housing choices, but hey, why sweat the important stuff?

I lived in North Georgia and watched the subdivisions ( like yours) sprout up all over the former farms. There wasn't enough water, the schools were overcrowded, and nobody thought to check the growth. Just develop. Develop. Develop.

If these subdivisions provided common spaces to garden, walk through the woods, etc. Great. But they tend to mow down every living thing in sight to build 1000 houses in two weeks. And everyone had better have the same mailbox.

I think it's criminal. But that's just my opinion.

No one is disparaging you for living that way, so why disparage others because it isn't their cup of tea?

Maybe you are too sensitive about this. :shrug:

[Walt Starr]

108. "No one is disparaging you for living that way"

What thread have you been reading?

[IrateCitizen]

110. One in which very few have actually disparaged you...

... but you have reacted in an overly emotional fashion to anyone who challenges the wisdom of suburban sprawl.

If you live in an area that was actually well-planned, to give a "town" feeling -- which it appears you do -- then you are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to suburbs. However, in many instances (including with me) you have taken criticism of suburbia as a personal affront, and have responded in an emotional fashion.

[Walt Starr]

112. So now "No one" has become "very few"

:eyes:

Changing your story now?

[IrateCitizen]

116. I didn't say "no one" in the first place, Walt...

I will readily admit there have been a few people who have disparaged you, or made blanket condemnations about suburbs here. However, those people are in the extreme minority, and most of us are talking about the vapid soullessness of greater American suburbia.

The suburbia you live in sounds similar to where I live. It's much more like a "town" than a "suburb". However, all I have to do is to go across the Hudson River to Rockland County, NY or New Jersey to see the effects of unchecked suburbia, and it is horrid, IMHO. It is an existence that is built upon the altar of consumerism and nothing else. And that latter description of suburbia more accurately fits the reality of the majority of suburbs across America. You just happen to live in an area that represents the minority.

Get a grip, man. Like I said, I'm not personally disparaging you, and very few on this thread are.

[maxsolomon]

101. when i said you did meth

that was a joke, son.

"put down the pipe" is a pretty common colloquialism round these urbane parts for "that assertion is groundless". i adapted it for your sub-urban locale.

i'll remember to be less humorous in the future.

[kodi]

107. "All good things of the earth flow to the city."- Pericles.

But, what happens to them once there is the problem.

I grew up in the big city, the neighborhood where the first "Rocky" movie was made.

Now I live in the country and an hour ago i watched a herd of nearly a dozen deer prance by my kitchen window in the field near my house.

Green acres is the place to be,
where i can go outside and pee.

[wtmusic]

109. This is a very strange thread

Is the point here to blame the suburbs' woes on the city, or vice versa?

Kind of pointless.

Is it to debate which place is better to live? Also pointless--to each his own.

One thing that might be pointed out Walt, coming from a guy who grew up in surburban Chicago--Aurora wouldn't exist without Chicago. Your property taxes are paid by workers who commute to Chicago and bring home big fat paychecks from all that awful commerce going on there. So while they can't take credit for your Canada Geese, they can take credit, in large part, for your sidewalks, schools, and public services. And the ability to go to the Museum of Science and Industry, the Field Museum, the Chicago Symphony, and a host of other possibilites not available to those who live in Edwardsville.

[Bridget Burke]

118. This thread is answering another....

In which the OP made a rare visit to wildest suburbia. From the dreadful architecture he viewed, he opined that all the suburbanites must be brain-dead, consumerist freepers. (Not that he bothered to speak to any of them.)

Then he motored back to his home in the country's most expensive city & posted the tale of his adventures among the unwashed.

I live in a city & prefer it to suburbia. Living in Houston & having visited the Metroplex, I certainly recognize Suburban Wasteland. But this doesn't mean that all suburbanites are worthless--or that all urbanites are perfect.

[elehhhhna]

115. Near North Chicago is FABULOUS (if you can afford it!) but...

once we totally committed to suburban living (girls in elementary school...) we moved to a suburb of -- eeek!---Houston.

Warm outdor lifestyle virtually all year long, and a real 50 acre park behind the house (you name a bird or any critter under 40 lbs. and we've got 'em back there for our viewing pleasure, plus occasional cows & horses...aqnd a chuckhead on a minibike or 4-wheeler but that's another thread.

But Lordy, I miss the energy, beauty, and majesty of Chicago. (Houston's "city" is a disappointment).

[David Ippolito]

117. Yes... to each his own.

Wow.

"Taking the train with my fellow Suburbanites, I couldn't help but think of the concrete wasteland I was about to embark to."

*****

Not a very open-minded or liberal thought. Kinda mean-spirited, actually.

I would never think to call the place that you or anybody calls "home" a wasteland.

New York City is my "home".

I was raised in the suburbs, a stone's throw from Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Joel Rifkin, Joey Buttafucco...

I moved into the city as a very young man, because I was drawn to the people, the art, the culture, the excitement, the beauty, the wonder, the history... "Florence during the Renaissance"...

Every "home" is what you perceive it to be.