Need help with research...

[kiki]

I'm looking for earlier examples of MIHOP/LIHOP; that is, any attacks or atrocities faked or set up by the powers-that-be in order to demonize a group and justify a war. I know the obvious ones - the Reichstag fire, the Gulf of Tonkin, and Operation Northwoods as the one that never was. Are there any more?

It doesn't matter how old they are - British Empire, ancient Rome, whatever. Or if any of you clever chaps are certain that there aren't any other examples, put me out of my misery.

[phusion]

1. What about that large naval ship?? Chesapeake?

Sparked the war of 1812 I believe?

[kiki]

2. *swish*

Sound of your post going over my head.

I'll look into it. Cheers!

[kiki]

3. Well, looked into it...

...so at least now I know what it is, but I can't see anything to suggest it was fake or self-inflicted or anything more than meets the eye. What've you heard?

[phusion]

4. You're right...

Wrong war!

I'm thinking of the Spanish-American war and the USS Maine.

Here's a good site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish-American_War

Has an explanation of it. Some excerpts:

On February 15, 1898, the American battleship USS Maine in Havana harbor suffered an explosion and quickly sank with a loss of 260 men. Evidence as to the cause of the explosion was inconclusive and contradictory, but the American press, led by the two New York papers, proclaimed that this was certainly a despicable act of sabotage by the Spaniards. The press aroused the public to demand war, with the slogan "Remember the Maine! To hell with Spain!". This patriotic belligerent feeling is known as spread-eagleism or jingoism.

Expert opinion is still divided; most now consider an accidental explosion of coal fuel to be as likely a reason as any for the ship's fate. Modern analytical tools, especially computer simulations, have all but confirmed this. Few still think a mine could have been the cause. Some believe it could well have been sabotage, but by Cuban revolutionaries who hoped to draw the U.S. into the war. Almost all agree the Spaniards would have no interest in provoking a war.

---

Was that the kind of event you're looking for? Maybe someone else around here has some insight.

[kiki]

5. Nice!

Just the sort of thing I'm looking for. You rule.

There must be more. I'm going to bed now, but I'll be kicking this mofo tomorrow.

[jdj]

6. What about FDR moving the aircraft carriers out of Pearl Harbor

before WW2?

Only the battleships were left, and they were pretty much obsolete.

I don't know alot about this, it's just what I read somewhere.

[linazelle]

7. Demopedia nt

[TreasonousBastard]

8. the Lusitania doesn't quite fit, but...

sinking it was what set the wheels in motion to get us into WWI on the Allied side.

That, and the Zimmermman telegram.

Vast amounts of conspiracy was going on at the time, and the steel and armaments manufacturers were chomping at the bit to go to war to make the big bucks. Wall Street and the bankers, too. The Lusitania might have been carrying arms to Britain, similar to FDR's Lend-Lease, in violation of stated policy and perhaps some treaties and agreements.

WWI was another war we really shouldn't have gotten into, and no good came of it.

Start here, and google like crazy:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWusaG.htm

It's amazing who all had their fingers in that pie, and the conniving going on to get a piece of it.

[starroute]

9. Remember the Alamo

Well, it did really happen, but it was provoked by the Americans and then blown out of all proportion to justify war.

Also, the War of 1812 was based on exaggerated stories about the British boarding American ships and impressing American sailors. It turns out that most of them really were British subjects using fake American citizenship papers, which were absurdly easy to get in those days. (As I recall, all you needed were two witnesses to swear you'd been born in the United States -- and witnesses were available for the cost of a good drunk.)

Even the Civil War took a little tinkering to get the firing on Fort Sumter as an excuse for hostilities.

In fact, I'm not sure there's been a war since the Revolution was wasn't faked up in some way or other.

[starroute]

10. The War of Jenkins' Ear

No, I'm not going to explain it. Just Google for it. Silliest excuse for a war there ever was.

[No Exit]

11. Here's a catalog of such fakery, going back to Roman times

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/

Please don't be put off by the author's note at the top of the article, in which he says, "this was posted by me years ago at freerepublic." The author--who is the guy at whatreallyhappened.com, I think his name is Michael Rivero--was long ago banned from freerepublic.

I read his website (whatreallyhappened) just about every day and believe me, he has NOTHING in common with the Bush-boot-licking freepers.

Plots like the Reichstag fire have been used for thousands of years, it appears. They are sometimes called "black ops" or "false flag" operations. It appears that they are a standard tool of politicos.

I can think of at least one other, which isn't mentioned in the above article. It was the Gunpowder Plot. One author (Hugh Ross-Williamson) I read made a convincing case that the Gunpowder Plot (England, 1605) was done (allowed to carry on w/o the government stopping it) to raise public outrage against Catholics in Britain, b/c the government was wanting to pass some stringent anti-Catholic laws, but they were afraid of public outcry. They knew that many Britons still had Catholic relatives, so they needed to stir up a little mass hate against Catholics. So, according to the author I read, the Gunpowder Plot was allowed to progress. It involved a man named Guy Fawkes and several others. It was a plot to blow up Parliament. The plot failed; the perps were caught and hanged. I believe Fawkes was Catholic, and some of the others must have been, too. The proper outrage against Catholics was produced, and the government got to pass their laws as they wished.

Has anyone above mentioned Pearl Harbor? It was known about, but was allowed to happen so that the U.S. popular sentiment would be aroused in favor of our entering WWII. It worked.

I have also heard mentioned the assassination of a U.S. diplomat in the early 1950's, by Israel. Israel wanted the U.S. to think the Egyptians did it; apparently it served their purpose at that time for us to be mad at the Egyptians.

Similarly, there was the bombing of the U.S.S. Liberty. Supposedly the Israelis did it, and successfully made us think another country did it. I'll have to look that one up; I can't remember which country got "framed". (Egypt?)

The Oklahoma City bombing was not done solely by McVeigh and Nichols. Some suspect elements of our government of doing it; at any rate, it is common for our FBI, ATF, etc., to use "agents provocateur" when they are infiltrating and trying to take down groups such as white supremacists. Note that the immediate outcome of OKC was a severe crackdown on, and public outcry against, "right-wing militias". (I'm not defending rightwing militias here... I'm just recounting a "Reichstag Fire" type of incident.) Possibly elements of federal law enforcement nurtured this evil little plot along and "LIHOP", so that the public would approve certain draconian laws supposedly aimed at curbing right-wing militias. Numerous federal judges were housed in the Murrah Building in OKC, and not one of them was at work in the building that day. I was told this by a lawyer who was the son of ANOTHER lawyer who once represented James Earl Ray. (So he ought to be plugged into info about the struggles of the feds against all kinds of right wing nuts, I would think.)

[kiki]

12. Thank you all...

All good stuff, especially No Exit's link.

Now, a couple of other things:

What was the name of the FBI (?) anti-terror guy who warned Bushco about OBL, got fired, and then died in the twin towers?

And, a challenge - do your best to prove LIHOP/MIHOP using only evidence from BEFORE the event. Anything after the planes hit is no good.

And can anyone explain the whole 'put' options thing with the airlines in terms that an economics idiot like myself can understand?

[justiceischeap]

13. John O'Neill

I don't think he was fired though, I believe he quit out of frustration because the Bush admin wasn't taking the terror threat seriously.

All the others I leave up to those who know more.

[kiki]

14. Cheers correction

[kiki]

15. "Told ya so" kick