Why do so many on the right hate illegal immigrants?

[lindsayg]

Besides the fact that they're not coming here legally, what's the problem?

I never quite understood this.

[KlatooBNikto]

1. How do you spell R--A--C---I---S---M?

[ultraist]

61. "Brown skinned people" `Bush

Yes, he was referring to Muslims, but we all know that the vast majority of "illegal aliens" are "brown skinned people" (Hispanics and Middle Easterners) who in large part work low paid service jobs: driving cabs, cleaning services, fast food restaurants workers, etc

Someone further down the thread mentioned how this expression of xenophobia was also prevelant during the early immigration days. I think that's an excellent parallel.

[blueknight]

2. i dont think they do?

they like them, they can work for minimum wage and never say a word about it

[LynneSin]

9. Hell, minimum wage would be a raise for many illegals in this country

:cry:

[MSgt213]

3. Because the dang illegals are taking away all the jobs we don't want

that's why. Besides none of them work they just get welfare. Is that plain enough for ya?:)

[bluestateguy]

4. "illegal immigrant" is code for Hispanic

They always say that they have no beef with people who come here legally, as long as they always speak English in public, keep their mouths shut when they are on the job and don't get into unionization, or receive any kind of government social services and as long as they fully embrace white bread culture.

This is how it was decades ago when the immigrants were from Italy, Ireland, Germany and Poland. Many were Catholic and Jewish. Yet many of the nativists railed about immigration and American culture.

If the mass of illegal immigrants came from Britain or Australia the discourse on this issue would be very different from these people.

[lindsayg]

6. Thanks for the replies

""illegal immigrant" is code for Hispanic"


Sounds about right.


I always thought they used "liberal" as a codeword for blacks and other minorities.

[blondeatlast]

15. Precisely. We need to use the word "racism" carefully, of course,

but in this case it's warranted. Plenty on the Left feel the same way--it's still racism.

I live in the heart of the matter--Phoenix--and I have no problem with it. Until we're ready to make Mexico do right by its citizens (say, a mandated boycott of imports), let them come.

[Enraged_Ape]

5. Illegal immigrants supply them with a steady stream of slave labor

The "hate" thing serves two purposes:

1) To deny before the world that they, in fact, can't get enough of the illegals.

2) To put the $2.00-an-hour help in its place. Can't have them thinking they're actually worth something.

[bambo53]

7. Perhaps because they're "illegal"?

They are here ILLEGALLY, and not just a few, but literally millions of them crossing the border everyday ILLEGALLY.

How can you defend anyone who is doing something illegal, on a huge scale, regardless of who, what, or why, the mere fact that it is illegal tends to piss off a lot of Americans.

[Mr.Green93]

12. They have

just as much right to be here as you.

[bambo53]

13. They have a RIGHT to be here illegally?

I am here legally.

What part of "illegal" don't you get?

[Mr.Green93]

20. It is a

human right. "Illegal" is just a racist construct.

[bambo53]

21. Why is murder "illegal"?

Why is anything illegal?

[ultraist]

75. Murder is illegal because it violates another's right

What rights are "illegals" violating by being here? Are they infringing on any of your rights?

[barb162]

52. How is it a human right? Is it then a human right we should

let a billion Asians in who want to come here illegally.

Is there something in the UN charter (or something somewhere????) that people of country A have a right to illegally go to country B

Do you have a human right to live in France? In Saudi Arabia?

[Mr.Green93]

70. Are you against

Mexicans coming North?

[barb162]

83. no. Please explain the "human right" thing YOU brought up. Do you

have a "human right" to tell Saudi Arabia, Norway, Nigeria, China, etc. you are going to live in their countries? I suspect the immigration depts. of 99% of the countries of the world would have a real problem with your statement.

[blondeatlast]

17. When you live in Phoenix, we'll talk.

I have no problems with it. As long as Mexico can't solve its own problems, I call them refugees.

If the way they live here is an IMPROVEMENT, things in Mexico are bad indeed.

[Dufaeth]

19. They're just taking back what was once theirs.

:)

[Igel]

35. It's only theirs because Spain claimed it, and willed it to

one of its offspring.

The fruits of imperialism.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

45. Not exactly

Many Mexicans have just as much, if not more, indigenous blood than Spanish blood, so the argument could be made that this has been their land for thousands of years.

[barb162]

54. aren't we talking about aboriginal peoples that inhabited certain areas

and those that inhabited what is now Mexico were not in the northern or eastern US. Therefore they are not "taking back" what they once had. They never had it

[Celeborn Skywalker]

87. True.

I was just saying that's the argument alot of groups use.

[Igel]

106. What you say is true but irrelevant. I'll explain.

There's some ethnic overlap in S. Arizona and New Mexico, e.g., the O'odham, but these ethnicities were tangential to almost all Mexican politics (and still are fairly marginal). I hardly think the O'odham were crucial in any politics in Mexico ... ever. And I think the O'odham would object rather strenuously to having any Maya claim their territory.

Even if the Mesoamericans immigrated through "Aztlan", and that's not N. Mexico but the SW US, yippee. They left and squatters took up residence for a millennium or two; it's sort of like the Celts claiming France. The Aztlan myth may, however, be just fiction, like Celtic stories of "the West". Any historical claims of Uto-Aztecans (near Mexico City) dating to 1450 and before to even where the Tarahumara live in N. Mexico are weak to nonexistent. There was some trade with the north and up into Arizona and beyond, and there are some cultural influences, but Mayan and Aztecan rulers didn't conquer or make serious claims that far north. Dry, poor, sparsely populated ... Even under brief Mexican rule that part of the country was pretty much a backwater, far from the capital.

I still think the only reason that California, Texas, etc., were ever part of Mexico is because Spain conquered it and claimed it, and when they deeded pieces of their empire to their New World successors, it was handed over to Mexico. It's a patchwork of ethnicities with borders defined originally not by terrain or culture but by invaders, the borders not reflecting anything existing at any point prior to the Spanish conquest. It's rather like Iraq in that sense. http://www.ethnologue.org/show_map.asp?name=Mexico&seq=1 shows indigenous languages that are still extant, quite a mixed back of rather distinct ethnicities.

It's not a matter of indigenous blood. It's a matter of where the historical claims originate. The Navajo have no claim over where the Tarahumara live, neither do the Cree, but all three are indigenous to the Americas. In turn, the Tarahumara have no claim to where the now-extinct Atakapa lived (Houston and SE Texas).

[bunkerbuster1]

25. The *people* are no more "illegal" than are drivers who exceed

the speed limit.

Funny, I never hear 90+% of highway drivers referred to as "illegals", yet those people routinely break the law.

[barb162]

56. probably because an illegal driving act takes a few seconds

whereas illegally being here is 24 hour a day, every day, isn't it

[ultraist]

78. What would you do if you had no other way to feed and shelter your family?

These people come here to WORK to EARN money so that they can feed and shelter their families. There is no work for them in Mexico so just like the immigrants that came to the US at the turn of the century, they are coming here to seek out work.

I'd HARDLY consider that "criminal!"

[bunkerbuster1]

99. Just a few seconds? Exceeding the speed limit is an ingrained, daily

part of many Americans' lives. They do it for an hour or more every day.

I don't hear them being called "illegals."

[FuzzyDicePHL]

8. Don't forget

that coming from another country offends some Americans' sensibilities simply b/c of the "USA #1!" attitude so many yahoos have (bless their poor distorted superegos).

Forget about the fact that one would be hard-pressed to find many Americans who don't have roots on other continents if you were to trace their ancestry.

[ultraist]

79. exactly, only the Native Americans can make that claim

a very small percentage of our population.

[Chipper Chat]

10. Top Ten Reasons why RW Fundies hate illegal immigrants:

10 - "We cant stand black eyes"
9 - "They are too gay-friendly"
8 - "They fill our streets with unsightly dented cars"
7 - "They bring along Mexican flies and mosquitoes with them (my dog's fleas and my bedbugs are complaining)"

6 - "We already have enough Catholics here"
5 - "For some reason none of them will eat at Taco Bell"
4 - "It's their clothes- how can I say it?- too Ricky Martinish?"
3 - "If they could vote, they'd all vote Democratic"
2 - "We hate their married-yatchi music, although we do like Peggy Lee's 'Manana'"

1 - "They take too many siestas while they're cutting my grass for $2.50 an hour"

(my apologies to the David Letterman Show)

[RebelOne]

11. I am not too fond of illegal immigrants myself. n/t

[sadiesworld]

14. They have nowhere else to focus their anger over illegal immigration.

They can't blame the assholes currently in power (* is god).
They can't blame the greedy f**ks who employ illegals, that's CAPITALISM.
They can't blame the puppet politicians in other countries who support the multi-nationals' rape of their countries, at the expense of providing for their citizens (leading to increased illegal immigration), b/c thinking is "hard work".

[blondeatlast]

18. PERFECT. You nailed it.

:toast:

I'm going to memorize that post. That's it in a nutshell.

[No Exit]

27. Yes--capitalism is a holy sacrament. Shhh!

It's blasphemy to think that there's any better way for humankind to survive, than for big conglomerates to hunt and kill one another in bloody capitalist battles, in which thousands of actual humans get wiped out as "collateral damage".

[ikri]

16. Scapegoating

Its a convenient way for any government to shift the blame for problems.

You can't get a job because:
"Too many illegal immigrants taking your jobs"

Your taxes are high because:
"Welfare mothers!"
"Social services being force to look after illegal immigrants"

As long as a government can focus people's attention and anger against small groups they can keep the focus away from their own failing policies.

"We'd all live in Utopia, if it weren't for those pesky..." pick your own minority group to be abused.

[nascarblue]

22. My take? Hate Radio advocates racism and bigotry

The messages of hate, the attack on free speech in universities, etc. I mean how ridiculous is it that since Ward Churchill started getting fried by Bill O'Reilly, he's had to have bodyguards and has been getting death threats? Why can't the left show this kind of enthusiasm(if you want to call it that) for attacking these hate mongers?

I believe this Fox/Scarborough/Limbuagh type of hate-mongering justifies this behavior. If it didn't, why would there never be any reports about what damage these media hate campaigns cause? A good example is Jordan of CNN for simply stating a fact... that Journalists are not only at danger from "insurgents", but from US troops as well. And the right attack him for saying that? What a joke!

I never understood what was wrong with that statement... it's been proven true. US Troops have killed far more independant journalists than Iraqi's have.

[radwriter0555]

23. Yes, they're just greedy racists and need something to fear, like hitler

used the jews as fear based method of control.

[bambo53]

24. Wonderful...

We've managed to go from *illegal* immigrants to Hitler & Jews.

And we complain when the right changes subjects to try and justify bullshit causes.

[Gr8_Scott]

38. Perfect reply, bam

I was posting to a thread about spreading Democracy the other day and a strange thing happened....
1) I took issue with our nation being referred to as a "Democracy" when in fact we live in a representative Republic.
2) One simple post was "Always follow the money."
3) I brought up that the Shi'ites are calling for restraint as the Sunnis are slaughtering fellow Muslims.

After 3 posts I was accused of being a Bush sympathizer! I took it was because I didn't use any of the buzz words or slams (Bushco, Neocon, BusHitler.....). It seems every intelligent discussion here ultimately returns to Bush and Rove. Blaming Bush and Rove for EVERYTHING does one of two things. It either grants them way too much power (but if you want to put these two in charge of everything that ever goes on in the world.... well that's totally up to you. Not that there's anything wrong with that...) or somebody is toting a whole heapin' helpin' of paranoia.

[radwriter0555]

48. Your inability to see the relativity is your flaw, not mine. I think for

myself. I don't let others tell me what to think. I form my own opinions based on my observations and knowledge.

Hatred of illegal immigrants is RACISM.The hate of illegal immigrants is based on fear.

Hitler used the SAME pathologically illogical fear of the jews to foster allegience to his whacky ideas, and gee, look where that got the world to. The GOP uses the illogical fear of illegal immigrants to bolster their idiotic concepts of nationalism and patriotism to the exclusion of anyone not white, rich and male.

Some things aren't always linear, but are sometimes extrapolated into idealogies that are relative.

Try thinking out of the box.

[bambo53]

67. You're probably right

That would probably explain the concentration camps and gassing of the Mexicans near our borders. How could I have missed that?

Would you mind terribly if me & several hundred of my buddies hang out in your back yard for awhile? Like say, forever?
If you do then you must be a right wing racist and and bigot.

[radwriter0555]

86. I have no problem with native americans traversing the border of the US

and mexico. In fact I believe they should be given permission and permits and drivers licences to live and work here, with as many privileges as northern americans have.

You see, I'm not greedy or racist.

I believe that even in spite of the racist greedy republicans that the USA has plenty and enough of everything to share with the people who are indigenous to this hemisphere and with those native to this land.

And as far as concentration camps go, got GITMO?

I reiterate, racism is the sole basis of hatred against Mexicans. Racism and hate were hitlers stock in trade. They're one and the same.

[3rdParty]

26. Be careful for what you wish for.....

Illegal immigrants are overwelmingly Catholic and/or born again fundamentalists and usually deeply pro-life.

[arkie dem]

28. They only hate them

when they aren't building their million dollar homes, landscaping their yards, cleaning their homes, and employed at their businesses for slave wages.

[tcoursen]

30. jobs

And who would have all those jobs if not illegal immigrants?

Would these people not hire americans if they could not get cheap illegals? Would they not have their lawns mowed? Would they not have cleaning people? Building their homes?

They certainly would still have their fancy homes, lawns, etc.

And don't kid yourself thinking that it is only the rich that have this. I live in the blue state of NJ. I live in the very middle class Woodbridge. Very blue city. So in this town full of Democrats I see the illegals building the houses, mowing the lawns, cleaning the houses. It isn't just the rich that have all this.

[nascarblue]

31. Exactly!

It's really a bunch of crap like you said. I've lived in So Cal most of my life which has one of the biggest concentration of illegal aliens in the country. Since my 1st job I ever held 27 years ago, I've worked with Mexican illegal immigrants. They're cool as shit. It's usually a son or father or mother who come to the US to send money back home. Now many of them wouldn't have to do taht if we hadn't been invading their countries and stealing all their resources for the past 100 years. It's really a joke. And believe me, Mexicans these days are not nearly as eager to come to the U.S as they were before our government turned Nazi.

And now we have these psychotic old men organizing themselves as "Minutemen". They're supposedly starting patrol in April. I can't wait to see how ridiculous that turns out. The sad thing about it is though, most likely some poor Mexican is going to die, and some racist asshole will be charged with 10th degree manslaughter and let off with a slap on the hand.

[LibDemAlways]

44. You nailed it.

If all the "illegal" immigrants in LA decided to leave at once, lawns would quickly become overgrown, restaurants would be in chaos, parents would be forced to stay home with their children, homes would be filthy, construction would come to a standstill, supermarket produce departments would be empty. People love to bitch and moan about "illegals," but they have no problem hiring them and paying them slave wages to do the shit detail.

[arkie dem]

49. Same would happen here in this very

RED part of Arkansas.

[Craig3410]

58. Which part are you in? NW Ark.?

I live here too, and it's obvious that Tyson and Wal-Mart would go bankrupt if not the illegal immigrants.

[arkie dem]

65. I live in Springdale

and work at the UofA.

Wal-Mart, Tyson, and numerous others would be in a world of shit if weren't for the illegal immigrants.

[tcoursen]

29. my take

I don't hate illegal immigrants themselves. Can't really blame them for wanting to come here to have a better life. But the system is broken. Making them do it in a "illegal" way is the problem.

Also, I don't agree with the "illegal = Mexican" argument. In the part of the country where I live, NJ, I believe most of the illegal immigrants that live here are NOT Mexican.

Illegal immigrants DO put more of a burden on our health care system. Who do you think pays for that? The people and businesses that pay health care premiums.

There was a thread the other day about minimum wage. One of the arguments for raising the minimum wage was that it would actually help higher income families. The way it would help them is that a very high % of workers that make minimum wage are teenage kids of middle income families. Raising their wage would help the parents out and make it so that they had to support the kid less. I am guessing this meant that the kid would have enough date money and gas money for themselves and wouldn't have to get that from mom and dad. Were I live I hardly see teenagers at any of the fast food places, mowing lawns, etc. This was all stuff that I did and my friends did when we were teenagers. Are the illegal immigrants taking the jobs from Americans or are they not?

I know a person who owns an apartment building. I think it has 16 units. It doesn't require enough maintence for him to have to go out and hire a full time maintence guy. So when he needs some work,guess what he does. He goes to one of the corners in the town and highers illegals for the day. He gives them 100 bucks a day, drives them to and from the building, and buys them lunch. he says it is cheaper to do it that way than to TRY and find legit people to do it. Key word there being TRY. Just try and find a painter to do one days worth of painting in an apartment. Most of the time it is painting. But he has had them do drywall, plumbing and tiling. Does this illegal activity help or hurt american workers?

I also know a person that owns a roofing business. Small business, I think it is just him his brother and his father. he says he loses jobs all the time to people who hire illegals. They can underbid him on jobs AND make more profit than he does. Does this help or hurt american workers?

It is easy for republicans to blame everything on illegal immigration, and it is unfair. However, it is equally unfair for liberals to say that the other side does not like illegals simply because they are racist.

[nascarblue]

32. I was just talking about my area and my experiences

Right, I was just referring to my area. It's different in other areas. Here in So Cal we generally have mostly Mexicans because we live so close to the border. Just like Miami is generally Cuban immigrants. I don't think this post was directed specifically at Mexicans, I was just giving my personal take. Though, like I said above, Arizona has been making a big stink about Mexican illegal immigrants since the election and that amendment they had. And now the Minutemen situation.

[tcoursen]

33. Can you blame them?

But can you really blame the people of Arizona for being upset? I have seen articles that talk about how bad off the hospitals in Arizona are, and how they are basically bleeding money trying to provide care for the illegals.

So when the workers of Arizona see their health care costs go up, and they read these articles, do you really blame them for being upset?

I think that this IS a growing issue, and one that is crossing party lines. For every person that I know that is a republican that I hear say something negative about illegals, I hear the same thing come out of the mouth of somebody that I know is a democrat.

Unfortunately it is the wackos that you describe that really keep the attention and true problems of the issue from getting the proper attention that they deserve. There is a solution to the problem, and I don't think it is the minutemen solution.

[nascarblue]

36. It's not a growing issue

It's a wedge issue. Trust me. I go to Mexico all the time and know many customs officers personally. Illegal immigrants coming across is at an all time low.



As far as health care, how can you blame mexicans? The reason hospitals are bad off are because of Bush's policies towards social and health programs. We're having the same issues in Los Angeles with MLK hospital(which of course, is in a poor area therefore treating mostly blacks and latinos).

Have you taken a look at Bush's new budget and what he's doing to the healthcare programs? Everything is being either drastically slashed, or cut off all together.

By the way, I do have two uncles in Arizona and haven't heard anything about a trend of "hospitals being bad off". Can you pass on that link or links to me?

[tcoursen]

41. link

Well, here is a link for an arizona story :

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/index.php?page=border_news&story_id=072304a8_hospitals

Remember, all illegals do not come from Mexico. Just because it is down right now from Mexico does not mean it is down from everywhere. In NJ the number of illegals increases every year. That is growing.

It very well may be slowing down from Mexico because of the way the people in Arizona and California are cracking down and treating them.

[BBradley]

34. My take on this.

I'll preface this by saying that I am a middle-class, young (18), white male, living in a suburb that nonetheless has a high population of immigrants both legal and illegal.

My friends and I have gotten on the topic of illegal immigration many times, with me being the only one with a less drastic view than decapitation. It seems their main concern seems to stem from some self important need of convenience and an extreme phobia.

Every single time we've gotten on the topic it's been because of one thing: fast food. If that isn't the most asinine reason for hatred I don't know what is. It's always the same thing, How do they expect to function in our society without learning English? To which I reply, most of them are trying to learn English. You just have unrealistic expectations of the speed at which they can learn it.

Another issue that they bring up: At the local convenience store the illegals stand in the parking lot in the morning waiting for local construction companies and whatnot to pick them up. Apparently this makes the caucasian community quite uncomfortable, and the town even passed an ordinance (that was later rescinded) to keep these people from loitering infront of the convenience store. Now whenever my friends feel the need to bring this up, my answer is simple: They're looking for work, you idiots.

The only legitimate problem there is with the hispanic community around here is the gang problem. I know many DUers think that this is a non-issue, and that immigration doesn't create gangs. Yeah well, I agree that poverty is the root cause, but you don't see many rich immigrants. There was an explosion in violence a few months back, one kid got his hand chopped off with a machete, another got shot and killed walking with his girlfriend, and there are constant stabbings and robberies. There are really scary things that happen here, in one of America's richest counties, and the Hispanic community just doesn't speak loud enough against all of this. When a community is silent about actual problems it becomes complicit in the eyes of many, and helps to reinforce the stereotypes it should be trying to shrug off.

I hope that was atleast a little insightful. I deal with xenophobia everyday since our town is such a weird mix between upper-middle class and poverty. I haven't got to sleep yet so if I've been rambling don't hold it against me. :silly:

[MountainLaurel]

40. Are you in Fairfax?

The information you mention sounds very familiar.

As an aside, what your friends and others aren't taking into consideration are the ways in which undocumented immigrants contribute. The U.S. pays the least per capita for food among developed nations, mainly because the agricultural industry gets away with paying peanuts to illegal workers. Are your friends ready to pay twice as much for fresh vegetables and even processed foods if suddenly farms have to pay minimum wage? Same for housing costs.

And these diatribes don't take into account what illegal immigrants contribute to the economy, in terms of consumption of goods. Here in the DC area, if all of the undocumented suddenly disappear, most businesses -- from the Home Depot to grocery stores to car dealerships -- are going to be hurting in a major way.

Frankly, I think the Repukes don't hate illegal immigrants as much as they say they do, after all, without them, who's going to mow their lawn, build their Old Navys and Olive Gardens in the suburbs, repair their roads and raise their children?

[tcoursen]

42. prices

Hasn't it been shown that the actual cost of produce would not double but would only go up slightly if workers were paid minimum wage?

If the illegals are poor, what are they really contributing in terms of consumption of goods?

How are the home depot, car dealerships, etc. going to be hurting? The poor illegals are buying cars?

I read a story about a town in southern NJ that wanted to allow the illegal farm workers to get proper driving licenses and all that. Apparently every summer when the illegal workers are working the farms there is a hugh upswing in the number of hit and run accidents and other motor vehicle accidents. Apparently what the illegal workers are doing in this town is driving around in stolen cars. They don't have drivers license and can't afford/get insurance. So they get stolen cars that they use as disposable cars. They drive them around. If they get in an accident, they just jump out of the car and run. Leaving the other driver stuck with the problem. Apparently they even do it for traffic stops. If they get pulled over by a cop, they just run.

It isn't the immigrants themselves that is the problem, it is the system. In the example that I just gave it really isn't that the illegals themselves want to drive around in the stolen cars and just run from the accidents and the cops, they just have no alternative.

Why should the companies that hire the illegals get away without having to pay the proper taxes and all that. Again, it isn't the workers that work under this system, it is the companies that are allowed to exploit it.

[Strelnikov_]

51. I Agree. Treat The Addiction, Not The Supply

The following sums up my feelings on the issue.

John Sayles
From: A People's Democratic Platform

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040802&c=5&s=forum

The Democratic platform should call for an end to the hypocrisy of our immigration policy. Our current policy, an enormously expensive cat-and-mouse game, most notably on our southern border, calls on the INS to enforce immigration laws that are openly expected to be ignored by countless US industries and private employers. Some sort of regulated guest-worker program is needed.

Once it is in place, if immigrants continue to enter the country illegally and can't find work, word will filter back and the numbers will decrease dramatically. While in our country, however, those guest workers need to be protected from exploitation--to be assured they will be paid for their work, that their working conditions will meet state and federal safety standards and that they will receive no less than the federally mandated minimum wage (which needs to be raised).

Employers would be required to withhold some percentage (perhaps the equivalent of federal taxes and Social Security) from wages to help defray the costs of the program. Penalties for hiring foreign workers outside of the program would be high enough (and sufficiently enforced) to end the black market in labor that is thriving now.

Protecting all workers in this country is an important first step toward the amendment or abolition of NAFTA and the protection of workers throughout the world.

[ultraist]

59. WTF?

isn't that the illegals themselves want to drive around in the stolen cars and just run from the accidents and the cops, they just have no alternative.

Sorry, dude, "illegals" don't drive around in stolen cars any more than "legals."

They CAN and DO BUY cars. They also buy food, clothing, purchase houses, pay rent, buy gas, go to movies, buy furniture, and pour a LOT of money into our economy.

Futhermore, "illegals" cannot get Social Services! They PAY INTO the Social Security system and tax base, UNLESS, some greedy white business owner pays them under the table, so that he/she can avoid paying workman's comp, minimum wage, unemployment insurance, liability insurance, payroll taxes, etc. like your friend you mentioned.

[tcoursen]

91. I am just passing on what I read

I looked for the link but I can't find it. It was about a year ago and was in the Newark Star Ledger.

It was an article about a SPECIFIC town with SPECIFIC problem.

I am not saying that this is widespread all over. It was however a problem in this particular town.

NJ has very strict insurance rules. It is hard for legal people with bad driving records to get proper insurance. The article pointed out that illegals can't get insurance. If you have no insurance in NJ they take the car. That is why they get stolen cars, because they KNOW that they won't be having the car for long. If they get pulled over for ANY reason, the car will be taken.

Again, this is a problem created by the rules of the system, not by the illegals.

And as far as the paying into social security, this is exactly what I meant. They don't have the proper ids and social security numbers, but because they have fake ids and numbers they are in fact paying it but will never get it.

Illegals do get social services depending on where they live. They can send their kids to school can't they? Does that not count as a social service? They can go to an emergency room and get treatment, is that not a social service?

For the record, the guy I was talking about is not white, like you assume.

[BBradley]

63. Yes I do live in Fairfax

[WoodrowFan]

62. one thing about the gangs

The gangs here in Northern Va are very strong in the LEGAL community, they'd be here even if every illegal were deported. they're often kids of legal immigrants who spent a lot of time back hoem while Mom and Dad raised the money to bring them to the US. They get here only to find their own parents are strangers.

[BBradley]

64. I'm aware of this, but the main gang I'm referring to, MS13, was imported

from El Salvador. They took the life they lived in El Salvador, and they took it with them. Legal or not, and alot of them if not most are legal, that still doesn't excuse the lack of outrage I've heard from the Hispanic Community in Fairfax Co.

[Virginian]

96. Why Fairfax?

Why has Fairfax been targeted by the M-13 gang?
Why has Fairfax been target by so many illegals? The cost of living is high, the taxes are high.
A lot of the day laborers waiting at the 7/11 do not get hired.
Some of them are hired but not paid.

A major source of the problem is that immigration, both legal and illegal has caused clusters of non-English speaking colonies. The fact that they don't have to learn English means they don't learn English. By not being able to talk to the people who already lived here, they create a sense of invasion, a We-vs-They mentality. The influx has been too rapid and too concentrated to allow for any assimilation. We know segregation is not good, yet it exists here all the way down to grocery stores that hire only Spanish speaking (not bi-lingual) cashiers. Each group has misconceptions about the other that will persist until there is an open dialog.

Democrats blame the employers, Republicans blame the immigrants.

It is the greedy employer who does not want to pay minimum wages who should be prosecuted, not the person who is in search of a better life. Instead of sending their poorer population to the US, the governments of the immigrants' home countries should be encouraged to make living there more tolerable.
I am against outsourcing, but if we are going to do it anyway, we might consider doing some of our outsourcing right here in our own hemisphere so families would not have to be split apart and parents could raise their own children. Our priorities should be to take care of our country first and then our neighbors and after them, then take care of countries far away.

I want people to immigrate here because they want to, not because conditions back home are so intolerable they feel they have to. I want people to come here because they like us, not because they want our money.

With the price of housing here, overcrowding gets to be a problem sometimes:
The town council even came up with a new definition of "Family" to work with the zoning laws.

Town Makes Progress on Crowding
http://observernews.com/stories/archives/news/013004/crowding.shtml

Here is a link to other overcrowding issues http://observernews.com/cgi-bin/search/search.pl?Match=0&Realm=All&Terms=Overcrowding

A little bit of local flavor from Letters to the editor (I read them, I don't write them):

Help Legal Immigrants, Not Illegal Ones
http://www.observernews.com/stories/current/viewpoints/021805/18letr8.shtml

A ‘United' Herndon? http://observernews.com/stories/archives/viewpoints/092404/24letr4.shtml

Candidates Should Address Immigrant Issues
http://observernews.com/stories/archives/viewpoints/041604/16letr4.shtml

NRC Prevents Assimilation
http://observernews.com/stories/current/viewpoints/011405/14letr3.shtml

Overcrowding Problem Rooted in Illegal Immigration
http://observernews.com/stories/archives/viewpoints/110504/5letr2.shtml

Illegal Immigrants are Cause for Concern
http://observernews.com/stories/archives/viewpoints/102904/29letr8.shtml

No Compassion Without Justice
http://observernews.com/stories/current/viewpoints/010705/7letr2.shtml

Here is a page of more links to Letters to the Editor about immigration in this corner of Fairfax.
http://observernews.com/cgi-bin/search/search.pl

[Igel]

37. In addition to the other causes mentioned above, I think

people have forgotten a couple.

Illegal immigrants have a lot of supporters. Advocacy groups. Spokesfolk. All arguing for either accepting all illegal immigrants, or at least Latino illegal immigrants. Some argue for no borders.

No borders, no sovereignty. RW is big into sovereignty.

Moreover, all of these spokesfolk, supporters, and advocacy groups have one thing in common. All are liberal or progressive.

One side takes up one side, the other side feels compelled to take up the other. It's a reflex.

[Orsino]

39. Most illegal immigrants are poor...

...and Republican ideologues hate the poor--because every poor person gives the lie to their American dream of a benevolent and unfettered capitalism.

Many Republicans retain a shred of their humanity, too, and might actually feel some measure of guilt at the thought of poverty.

[ultraist]

66. "Republican ideologues hate the poor" and they are racist

This essay is as relevant today as it was when it was written. Too bad the Repukes ignore the "sin" component when it comes to poverty and racism!

excerpts
http://www.osjspm.org/cst/racism.htm
In response to this mood, we wish to call attention to the persistent presence of racism and in particular to the relationship between racial and economic justice. Racism and economic oppression are distinct but interrelated forces which dehumanize our society. Movement toward authentic justice demands a simultaneous attack on both evils. Our economic structures are undergoing fundamental changes which threaten to intensify social inequalities in our nation. We are entering an era characterized by limited resources, restricted job markets and dwindling revenues. In this atmosphere, the poor and racial minorities are being asked to bear the heaviest burden of the new economic pressures.

This new economic crisis reveals an unresolved racism that permeates our society's structures and resides in the hearts of many among the majority. Because it is less blatant, this subtle form of racism is in some respects even more dangerous -- harder to combat and easier to ignore. Major segments of the population are being pushed to the margins of society in our nation. As economic pressures tighten, those people who are often black, Hispanic, Native American and Asian -- and always poor -- slip further into the unending cycle of poverty, deprivation, ignorance disease, and crime. Racial identity is for them an iron curtain barring the way to a decent life and livelihood. The economic pressures exacerbate racism, particularly where poor white people are competing with minorities for limited job opportunities. The Church must not be unmindful of these economic pressures. We must be sensitive to the unfortunate and unnecessary racial tension that results from this kind of economic need.

THE SIN OF RACISM

Racism is a sin; a sin that divides the human family, blots out the image of God among specific members of that family, and violates the fundamental human dignity of those called to be children of the same Father. Racism is the sin that says some human beings are inherently superior and others essentially inferior because of races. It is the sin that makes racial characteristics the determining factor for the exercise of human rights. It mocks the words of Jesus: "Treat others the way you would have them treat you." (4) Indeed, racism is more than a disregard for the words of Jesus; it is a denial of the truth of the dignity of each human being revealed by the mystery of the Incarnation.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. Bullies and bigots always prefer beating up on the helpless.

And, then blaming them.

[ultraist]

69. excellent description of Bush's culture of hate

[Gr8_Scott]

46. Link:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20050223/ts_usatoday/despitenewtechnologyborderpatroloverwhelmed

[Celeborn Skywalker]

47. Xenophobia, mostly

Yes, some are racists and just hate brown people, but most are xenophobic and don't want to be exposed to their culture. Illegal immigration is a genuine issue that needs to be discussed rationally, but with a wingnut that is impossible. They will always turn it onto a xenophobic or racist conversation, so I don't discuss the issue anymore with conservatives.

[barb162]

50. numerous problems, a few of which are

using social services like hospitals for free. Some hospitals in the SW have gone bankrupt because of this

using services like schools without paying. You figure the average cost to educate a child is well into 4 figures a year

taking jobs from Americans. Employers use illegals to force wages down, to union bust, to stop paying benefits, etc. I think Bush wants to have more illegals here so he can further force down wages of Americans; face it, Bush caters to his business buddies who will do anything to gain more bucks for themselves at the expense of employees. Bush can also use the illegals to break the back of Social Security, Medicare, etc by adding them in

How many illegals are paying federal or state income taxes?

I say we should close the borders and do it fast and also deport illegals, regardless of which country they're from. I suspect there's a lot of illegals who overstayed student visas too. Let them apply legally to live here.

[tcoursen]

55. Taxes

I think some do pay taxes. They get fake id's and fake social security numbers so that they can get legit jobs. Problem is, they pay the taxes but they aren't getting anything for it. I think that they don't file tax returns, so if they are having taxes taken out of the paychecks, they may be entitled to a refund. Also, if they are using a fake social security #, they aren't paying into the system properly. They would never get to collect social security because their records will be all screwed up.

[WoodrowFan]

60. they have special IDs

so when they buy something they don't pay the sales tax, when they get a liscense for their beat up car, they don't pay any fees, when they buy gas, they get the gas tax back, when they pay rent on their apartment, they get the share going to property taxes given back to them, when they use a phone, they don't have to pay the state and local taxes on that, etc, etc.


The "fact" that they don't pay taxes is a big fat RW lie based on the fact that they usually don't file income tax forms to get a rebate.

[barb162]

72. what about state and local and federal income taxes again?

So their paying sales tax is nice.

Federal tax is usally a huge bite of anyone's income.Income tax is probably not being paid by most illegals I would suspect. And property owners pay school taxes usually off their property holdings.

I disagree with your comment about the big RW lie.

[WoodrowFan]

74. ever hear of withholding.

you don't think their employers hold back withholding? I think the IRS would be suspicious of an employeer NOT holding something back...or reporting they didn't actually have any employees.

You may not like that fact that it's a RW lie, but it still is. It's just another variation on the old "lazy brown people" meme that the RW has used for years.

[barb162]

80. I don't know the % of illegals working jobs for wages under the

table, but I suspect it is huge and none of the monies would be withheld.

I think your calling it a fact that it's a RW lie is incorrect.

There are two wings of the Republicans that are going to war over this illegal issue; it can literally split the party in two from the analyses I have been monitoring. The business side (which benefits from illegal employment) loves it that they are paying less than minimum wage, no benefits, etc. They get to buy bigger swimming pools, bigger houses, etc. The other wing of the Republicans, the social conservatives, can't stand the illegals for various social and economic effects they're having on the US. They are also extremely concerned that the lax border security can allow terrorists to come in. Pat Buchanan was on some show yesterday and he said Bush is so vulnerable on this issue it isn't funny as he hasn't tightened up security there for 3+ years now. (Why should he; it benefits his rich buddies who give him all this campaign money.) If terrorists want to bring in a dirty bomb or bombs through the southern border and explode them in an American city, Buchanan said something like should he be impeached or what

[tcoursen]

93. but are they withholding properly

But are they witholding from the right person? I have read several articles in the paper about illegals.

After 9/11 NJ cracked down on fake licenses, several of the 9/11 hijackers had fake NJ licenses. Apparently this was a very common way for illegals to get drivers licenses. it was very easy to get a duplicate license. So they would get 1 legal license from a freind/relative and then get duplicates. so now they have a license and probably use that license to get a job. So the job is withholding but it is all going to a differant name.

[Virginian]

100. Those are not illegals.

Illegals don't have tax exempt documents. They don't have any documents.

[ultraist]

71. Yes, many if not most pay taxes but don't get the returns

Illegals cannot get Social Services either. This myth that they are "draining our system and not putting anything into it" is one that poor, white, uneducated people cling to because they feel threatened that these "illegals" (ie Mexicans) are going to steal their jobs and resources. The higher income Rednecks are not as opposed to the "illegals" because they like having the cheap lawn and maid services and the business owners are able to hire "illegals" and screw them over by not paying unemployment, workman's comp, not adhering to OSHA standards, etc.

There are many horror stories of how migrant workers here in the South have been treated. Hostility towards Mexicans from the poor white community is prevelant here in the South.

[barb162]

73. Lawn service at one time was fairly high paid when it was being

done by citizens. As a matter of fact I know a guy who used to do it who was forced out of it as lawn service companies started using illegals for way less than minimum wage.

[Virginian]

98. Natalie

When I was still employed, the building where I worked hired a cleaning crew of mostly hispanics. I tried communicating, I learned a few words.
One woman who went by the name of Natalie told me she couldn't read or write because her family was too poor to send her to school. She was real proud that she had learned to write her name and showed me she could. She wrote, "Maria Gonzales."

[Grown2Hate]

57. This is the area that I have NO idea how to combat.

The two guys I work with don't HATE illegal immigrants, but they do rail against the "strain they put on social services". I simply have no ammo to combat their tirade, probably because I'm just not aware of HOW to. I could really use some examples and information from people here to help me, because they use what COULD be considered valid arguments (IF true... and I have no way of denying or verifying).

Example: The owner of our company (VERY small flooring business) always tells this tale of how he was turned down for a small business loan to start this place up. He's white, was 51 at the time, and a veteran. But he cites examples (of local businesses around us, people he knows) of other people getting business loans with little to no hassle. He says that if you're female and a minority, you're practically a SHOE in for a business loan. I mean, how do I combat that? I take the line of "I find that hard to believe", but what facts are there to back me up? If anything, his several examples bolster his claim. SO ANY help on how to combat this claim would be WONDERFUL so I could shut his ass up once and for all about it.

I guess I digressed and strayed from the actual topic, but any help on the above would be GREATLY appreciated.

As far as illegal immigrant workers, I know they are taken advantage of around here to a great extent (I live in Phoenix, AZ). I don't blame THEM, but rather the system, and the greedy assholes taking advantage of them. Example: we pay our installers a minimum of $2.00 a square foot to install tile. We are CONSTANTLY getting undercut for jobs because some asshole is paying immigrants $1 a square foot (and sometimes LESS!) to install. It's killing us, and other small flooring businesses trying to do things LEGALLY. But I blame the SYSTEM that allows this to happen, not the poor people just trying to make a better life for themselves. I consider it misdirected to be angry against people themselves.

[barb162]

76. your last paragraph says it all; this is exactly what I am talking

about,where US citizens are forced out of work by sickass greedy employers using illegals. Then the US citizens are out of work, lose their benefits, their unemployment runs out, there's no other jobs, etc. I want to see strict laws where these greedy employers are forced out of business. I want them fined so big that others who are doing the same thing will stop. The only way I see of stopping illegals from coming into the US is to stop the demand for the cheap wages.

You might want to watch the Lou Dobbs show on CNN for facts about illegals and their economic effect.

[tcoursen]

92. they do put a straing

Well,they do put a strain on the system, because they really aren't considered part of the system. That is the problem. They can't do a lot of things that you and I take for granted. They, in some cases, pay taxes, but get nothing out of it. They do put a strain on hospitals, because they can't get the same kind of health plans that other workers get. In some states I believe they can send their kids to schools. When this happens they do put a strain on the school if they need special help, which probably happens alot because they are most likely poor and most likely don't speak english at the same level as the other kids in that grade.

It goes both ways, they do help in some areas, and they hurt in others.

[AlCzervik]

53. When the ecnomy isn't going well people look for someone to blame

this isn't the first time our problems have been blamed on illegal immigrants and it won't be the last. Notice how the right never bitches about the business's including Wal-mart that hire them.

[GoldenOldie]

68. Cuban illegals vs Mexican Illegals????

As a border Zoni, and having associated with many Mexican crossers, I find it tragic that Mexican's whose ancestors once occupied this territory and most of the Southwest, are treated so differently than those illegals coming from Cuba.

Illegal Cuban's are allowed entry if they are able to touch US soil...in Florida. They are immediately given sanctuary, and the ability to obtain benefits be they educational, medical, etc. Because of this, much of Florida is now called Little Cuba and Spanish is the first language.

Illegal Mexicans or those from other SA countries who flee to the US crossing through searing arid deserts with many dying from heat exhaustion and lack of water. When and if the reach US soil they are hunted and stalked. Mexicans, when and if they are picked-up by the Border Patrol process them and they are then immediately returned to Mexico where they will again attempt to find their way accross the hot desert.

[barb162]

81. yeah but Castro is a big bad pinko, right? So I can see why US

policy is what it is on the Cubans (political freedom from the bad, bad dictator). The other thing is my understanding is there's about 10 million or so illegals in this country with 70% being Mexican. I think the Cubans are simply nowhere close to the sheer numbers of Mexicans; their effect is localized to the Florida area comparatively speaking

[ultraist]

84. Actually, 60% of ALL Hispanics are Mexican, not 70%

60% of all Hispanics are Mexican. The remaining 40% are Cuban, Puerto Rican, and Central & South American.

Additionally, 40% of Hispanics were born HERE, thus they are LEGAL US CITIZENS. (US Census Bureau). I don't know what percentage of foreign born Hispanics, the remaining 60%, are LEGAL through naturalization and/or Green card visas.

Where did you get that 10 million "illegals" number from? Do you have a source for that?

BTW, Cubans are not "illegals" as often, because they are granted immunity.

[barb162]

85. source: INS web site The illegals are from many countries

including the Mideast and elsewhere. I believe 70% of illegals here are from Mexico and I am not sure of the breakdown by country of overstayed visas of various types

[McCamy Taylor]

77. Not true. Lots of right wing business owners LOVE illegal workers.

This is the cause of the split in the Republican Party.

[ultraist]

82. Right, the top 6% like "illegals" the remaining 94% generally hate them

94% of Repukes are not wealthy business owners. Only 6% of the population earn over 200k. People under 200k generally cannot afford full time maid, nanny, and lawn services nor do they have other types of employees.

Bush's pro big corp donors are pushing this. Most everday Repukes hate "illegals" and are indoctrinated with the Repuke culture of hate worldview.

These top 6% may use these "illegals" for services, but I highly doubt their children play together. They do "hate" them in a sense.

[ourbluenation]

88. Just watched the film "A Day Without a Mexican" this weekend...

http://www.adaywithoutamexican.com/index1.htm

There are a lot of myths out there in regards to illegals draining our social services and the economics of it all. The movie is a fictional story of, basically, what would it mean if all the mexicans in California just up and vanished. They also have little facts show up intermittedly on the screen like 48% of all fast food purchases in Cali are spent by Hispanics.

I think the our two cultures are so intertwined that it would be disasterous to have the big crack down on illegal immigrants.

[porphyrian]

89. It only takes them a couple of generations...

...to forget that they were immigrants, too.

[vetwife]

90. I am not a R Winger and I got a problem with Illegal..it is not

fair to the ones who came in legally. why should illegals get a pass and everyone else do what is right? Nope. You try and go somewhere without the proper paperwork and find out how fast you get to stay..Won't happen !

[porphyrian]

95. Our founders came in legally...?

You mean, when Europeans came here and put a flag in the soil, they got to make the rules about who can and can't come here. Or was it when we decimated the indigenous people that we got the right to say who is a legal immigrant and who isn't? No, I got it, it's after all that, when our 99+% immigrant population decided that certain kinds of immigrants were preferable to others and devised a system of procedures which would prove the worthiness of the petitioning immigrant to become an American, even though most Americans couldn't pass the same test.

I see you're a perfect candidate for citizenship, having no problem with the hypocrisy of the system and proudly defending it. Good work, citizen!

[barb162]

102. Which country's system of immigration meets with your approval?

Because I think most countries are far stricter in their immigration policy than the USA and don't even let in legal immigrants at the rate we do.

[porphyrian]

103. When did my approval enter into this?

I just said that it's hypocritical to complain about illegal immigration. I'm not responsible for what you read into what I write.

[barb162]

104. I am not reading anything into what you write. You are complaining

though about the immigration system, correct? If you think it is not so hot or lousy or hypocritical or whatever, what country's immigration system is acceptable enough for you? Is ours the best in the world? Is it the worst?

[porphyrian]

105. No, I was responding to the post of an immigrant...

...who had a problem with illegal immigration. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of this, like I just told you and you chose to ignore.

[noonwitch]

94. I don't hate illegal immigrants, but I do support stopping the activity

My problems with illegal immigration are:

1. It's illegal. Get the green card and pay your taxes, like the rest of us.
2. Because most illegals are desperate, there are people who will exploit them. Thus, you get situations like the truck full of dead mexicans who starve or die of thirst or heat being brought over the border in conditions worse than those used transporting animals to the slaughterhouse. Or you get people exploiting children and women immigrants via prostitution/sexual slavery.
3. It has the potential to contribute to terrorism. Non-citizens entering the country need to be documented. It's called national security.

[tcoursen]

97. usa today article

Here is a link to an article from USA today

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20050223/ts_usatoday/despitenewtechnologyborderpatroloverwhelmed

And a quote from that article :

"We really don't know who comes into this country illegally over the Southwest border," Sen. Dianne Feinstein , D-Calif., says. "This is a big problem."

[barb162]

101. excellent little article and this also just reinforces my thought on

closing that border tight already


"Most of the illegals are poor Mexican laborers looking for work. But officials are alarmed that a growing number hail from Central and South America, Asia, even Mideast countries such as Syria and Iran. In 2003, the Border Patrol arrested 39,215 so-called "OTMs," or other-than-Mexicans, along the Southwest border. In 2004, the number jumped to 65,814.


Those figures worry intelligence and Homeland Security officials, who say al-Qaeda leaders want to smuggle operatives and weapons of mass destruction across the nation's porous land borders. James Loy, deputy secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, told Congress last week, "Several al-Qaeda leaders believe operatives can pay their way into the country through Mexico and also believe illegal entry is more advantageous than legal entry for operational security reasons.""

[Stop_the_War]

107. They're racists. eom