Question for All DUers re Sexual Orientation and "choice"

[smoogatz]

I've been pondering the fundie postulation that sexual orientation involves choice: that is, that we choose which gender we're attracted to. I've done a bit of personal memory sifting and honestly, I can't remember having made any such decision--but I do remember quite clearly getting in trouble in the first grade for drawing pictures of naked girls. My default setting, if there is such a thing, is apparently set to "breeder." Which leads me to wonder what other folks' experience is, and whether the fundies believe that everyone's default setting is "straight," or whether they think everyone, at some point, makes a "choice" about which gender they want to have sex with. Have you or anyone you know chosen to be gay? Or straight? What's the basis for the fundies' belief that sexual orientation is a matter of choice?

[Straight Shooter]

1. I've been attracted to men for as long as I can remember

I was a flirt when I was 8 years old, even though I had no idea what I was flirting about :)

People are born gay or straight, with variations along the spectrum. I just can't understand the big deal about it. I do not see "Thou shalt not be a homosexual in the Ten Commandments." I do see "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

And I think that crap in Levicus (sp?) is just that: absolute crap.

[rawtribe]

2. The only people who have

a choice are bisexuals. So all who say it's a choice must be bi.

[Eloriel]

16. Now THAT is a damned interesting and probably salient point

and well put -- it also goes well with my downthread previous post.

[mairceridwen]

33. nothing that simplistic

is either interesting or salient.

[mairceridwen]

32. it depends on what you mean by choice

No one really *chooses* who they find attractive. but there are some things that we can choose with respect to sexual expression. For example, we can choose to run in certain circles/communities or *target* (for lack of a better term) certain people in our dating endeavors thereby increasing the liklihood of a certain kind (gay/straight/other) realtionship.

However, I find the whole idea of *choice* to be woefully inadequate when it comes to understanding sexuality.

[Donailin]

34. AGREE

My uncle was gay, and sadly he passed away 16 years ago from HIV. He was named after my grandfather, "Vinny" and he was the fourth child of six born into a Italian Catholic family and was raised in the Italian Catholic home with his other three brothers and two sisters. He was the only gay child. Mom and Pop didn't do anything different in raising him than they did with my dad or the rest of his siblings.

The sad thing? He hid it from MomMom and PopPop his whole life: went to the extreme at holidays of bringing over "token" girlfriend to please my grandparents, but I knew he was gay anyway. I don't recall having an opinion either. I didn't care, really. He was a hairdresser and owned his own salon and he had the best disposition, always cheerful, always funny to us nieces and nephews and always cracking jokes that we would never have heard from the straight Catholic Italian aunts and uncles. When he got sick, and the "secret" was undeniable to my grandparents, they took care of him till his dying day, but they told everyone he had cancer-- even us grandchildren. I don't know what opinion they had on the matter of their own child being gay other than a sense of shame if not disappoinment and finally heartbreak because he was taken so young (43), but I know the opinion my dad had before his brother was diagnosed and it wasn't approving. Years later, when I was with a cousin of mine and we were in our twenties shortly after my uncle died, we were talking about family hereditary illnesses and she said, "well, Uncle Vinny had cancer, but I'm not sure what kind". I correctly informed her gently. She had no idea. A family secret.

I'm positive Uncle Vinny was born with a predisposition to be gay, I don't believe it's a choice. I think it's harmful to everyone to be ashamed.

[Catherine Vincent]

3. The fundies are whack.

You don't choose to be a homosexual. Once they get that thru their thick skulls, then maybe their homophobicness will go away.

[murray hill farm]

7. naw..it is not a choice!

i am a straight woman...and it was never a choice. I have thought..especially after a nasty divorce...that it would be better to be a lesbian...after all...i have so much more in commen with women...i like women better...i think women are superior in every way..hahahaha...but alas...i am straight...and i cannot change it..it is who i am...it is not a choice. you cannot decide to change your sexual orientation any more than u can decide to change the color of your eyes.

[Catherine Vincent]

11. Left on!

I feel the same way. Just because I connect better with women sometimes doesn't mean I can switch to lesbianism. I prefer men because I was born that way.:-)

[0rganism]

31. You underestimate them. In the absence of choice, the homosexual...

...is clearly called to a life of celibacy and abstention.

[porphyrian]

4. Sexuality is a continuum.

People aren't either gay or straight. There are an infinite number of clicks in between, and I think it may even be possible that peoples' positions change over time. What we don't choose is our sexuality. What we do choose is who we have sex with.

[Swamp Rat]

13. yep n/t

:)

[uppityperson]

14. Exactly.

Who we are is who we are. What we chose to do with it is the choice part.

[serryjw]

41. Agree

I have friends that have been together 13 years. One is probably 100% Gay and his partner is probably 60/40. He claims that sex was good with both BUT he fell in love with a Gay partner.

As for the argument about 'choice'......One does not choose their orientation BUT they choose their actions....If you listen to the freepers they say that they don't discriminate. We are all gods children...They just discriminate against the behavior! If Gay people would just not fall in love and not have sex they would be perfectly happy!

As a middle age straight person; I KNOW THE BEHAVIOR OF STRAIGHT PEOPLE.....and freepers don't talk about that! When SCOTUS ruled correctly on the TX anti-sodomy case.......thousands of straight people across the country ALSO had their case dismissed..many states have the same laws for anal and oral sex for straight people....

I wish this government would just get out of our bedroom, doctors offices and wedding chapels...They don't belong there.

[readmoreoften]

42. As a former dominatrix and exotic dancer

And let me tell you, it isn't just gay men having anal sex and it isn't just gay and trans drag queens who wear heels and skirts.

I could tell you much about straight Republicans. Much.

[serryjw]

43. That was exactly my point

n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. I'm gay and frankly I don't give a flying fuck and refuse to sell out to

this debate.

In a world where everyone has rights over their own body, the only purpose to this debate is to play right into their fucking hands.

If it's a choice then you aren't being discriminated against, since you could choose NOT to be discriminated against.

If it's a gene, then we need to isolate it and cure it the same way we cure other defects.

That is the intent of their argument. Either way you play it..freedom to live your life as you see fit loses.

Fuck that..I'm not playing into anyone's game by justifying my existance.

As far as I can tell, hateful religious fundamentalism and bigotry are a choice and when you let them frame your very right to exist by allowing them to force you to give a justification for yourself..you lose.

[readmoreoften]

17. I agree wholeheartedly.

I'm a dyke. I'm capable of fucking men and not vomiting. It can even feel good because nerve endings are nerve endings. But I can only desire and fall in love with a dyke. FURTHERMORE, all my life I have only been attracted to masculine dykes and butches. This isn't about sex or who-you-can-do-it with.

This argument is useless. It doesn't matter why we love who we love because being gay or trans is not a sin. I'm perfectly happy the way I am. I would NEVER want to be straight. Not that there's anything wrong with being straight, but it's just not who I am and I LOVE ME. I also have the LOVE OF MY LIFE who makes me the happiest woman in the world (far as I can tell :))

It would be like genetically engineering violinists to be veternarians because a culture prides itself on house pets. Who knows why I like strawberries or why I like to read or why I prefer walking to bicycling. I don't question the origin of these traits and I will not question my sexual orientation or gender identity. We queers have to spend too much time justifying our existence already.

[Solly Mack]

19. What NSMA said

I am who I am..but what I ain't is on earth to appease or please assholes.

[smoogatz]

20. Well said.

You're right--I've fallen into the fundie framing trap, just by raising the question. This is an unexpected and informative response.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. Just so you are clear, I am not accusing you of that

I get frustrated with gay people and this conversation too.

peace

[smoogatz]

28. Thanks.

I didn't feel accused. No worries.

[Misunderestimator]

39. I love you...

you just saved me a lot of time too... :loveya:

[karlrschneider]

6. If you ask a homophobe "Could you choose to be gay?", they will

invariably say "no"...but they seem to have no trouble believing that gay people could make the converse "choice". There is probably a name for that kind of cognitive psychosis, but I don't know what it is...
:eyes:

[Swamp Rat]

15. Cognitive dissonance?

:shrug:

[karlrschneider]

21. I know "dissonance" is the usual noun to go with "cognitive", but thought

a slight modification would be descriptive. But I'm an engineer, I don't have to be PC (psychologically correct) :D

[Swamp Rat]

27. Ha!

I'm a musician, so "dissonance" makes even more sense than not. Fundies, freepers, bigots et al are so totally "out of tune" not even Pythagoras and Tesla could help them. :D

[distantearlywarning]

8. Don't know about anybody else, but

I actually tried to become bisexual once in my "experimentation" days - it was fashionable in my circle and I thought it would be fun. So I slept with a woman.

It was the most boring experience of my life. She was cute and everything, but she did absolutely nothing for me. It was like being with a man (I'm a straight woman) who I wasn't attracted to, and who didn't have the right parts. After the experience, I realized that although I find some women asthetically appealing, I had never met even one who really "got me going" (so to speak) the way some men had. Don't know how to describe it better than that - but it's like the difference between mild attraction to a pretty face and raging lust. I just don't have it for women.

It was that experience that completely convinced me that sexual orientation was not a "choice". If I couldn't "choose" to be attracted to women, there was no reason to think that lesbians could "choose" to suddenly like men. Or that gay men could "choose" to be attracted to women.

And no, there was never any point in my formative years where I made a choice to like little boys. My earliest crush was at age 8 or 9, and it was on a boy in my grade. I didn't give much thought to whether I really liked little girls or little boys and what the ramifications of each of those "choices" might be - I just thought he was cute.

I think this whole choice argument is crap. I always wonder if the people who shout the loudest about homosexuality being a choice are the ones who wish that it really was so that they really could be "normal" (i.e., not just pretending to be hetero).

[readmoreoften]

37. I'm gay and I've had sexual experiences with women

that sucked worse than the sex I had with men in my formative years. The whole 'experimentation' thing is fun, but not indicative of much in my opinion. I'd rather not have sex then have sex with a feminine girl. I am only interested in masculine females.

I crushed on almost all my close female friends as a child. I 'picked' boy crushes for the sake of fitting in, but convinced myself that I really liked them. (It's easy to be straight from a distance.) In 6th grade, I fought with the entire population of the school for a year because the first day I told everyone I had a crush on a boy and that boy turned out to be a girl (figures, right).

Then, when I had sex with a boy for the first time it was awful but I thought that it made me straight. I thought that if I was a lesbian, I wouldn't have been able to physically complete the act (these were the kind of non-ideas we had back in the 80s).

I'm happy now. Sexuality is DEFINITELY a complex diamond. I'm a femme happy with my transgendered butch partner. I am not nor have I ever been genuinely interested in men or feminine women.

[Dirty Hippie]

9. Personally...

I made a choice to be gay. I never connected emotionally with members of the opposite sex and I chose to seek companionship within my own gender.

I made the decision 15 years ago and have never looked back.

However, I seem to be the exception. Every one of my girlfriends expressed a belief they were gay from birth. They were all very adamant on this point.

Frankly, I think the issue is moot. Even if being gay is a choice (which I do not believe it is in most cases) it is my right to make that choice. Nothing will ever convince the fundies. Screw 'em.

[HeeBGBz]

10. I am attracted to both sexes.

Even though I've gone both ways, I feel more inclined to be hetero. Although, if the right female appeared at the right time, maybe I would feel differently. Same with the right male. It's the spirit that radiates from a person that either attracts or repels.

At the moment, I don't feel inclined either way. Most of my temptations, as of late, get put into the "more trouble than it's worth" category.

[Eloriel]

12. Here's what I think

I think some of the worst of the homophobes are latent gays or maybe bis, and THEY had to "choose" not to be once upon a time -- in order to fit into society and their religious groups -- and therefore assume everyone else has to "choose" to throw over those nasty instincts and urges as well.

As for me, no choice whatsoever. I was always hetero and pretty much assume that most gays are gay by birth as well.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. hey baby! You just haven't met the right woman yet!

:evilgrin: There is something to be said for the repressed setting forth this argument. Beyond that, again, who cares if it is a choice or genetic. I would never rob you of your choice to be heterosexual. :D

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. It shouldn't matter if it's a "choice" or not. It's a matter of freedom.

I find the whole question of whether or not it's biological or mental, or whatever, irrelevant. I've always found myself attracted to women. Was it due to biology? Or, mental conditioning? Beats me, and it's as irrelevant as to why I love ice cream and loathe beets.

[New Earth]

22. EXACTLY HOW I FEEL.

Personally i dont think it is a 'choice', but regardless, WHY DOES IT MATTER?

A person's sexuality is no one else's business, and that is all there is to it. I don't understand why that so hard to comprehend for some people.

[mairceridwen]

30. word!

[Erika]

24. My stepson is gay

He "tried" to be straight and ended up marrying a girl and they have a child. He couldn't take the situation any longer and "outed" himself.

He has been with his partner now for many years. They have a warm and loving relationship and he's far happier. He said that his best friend is his partner and they share the same bed. That puts it pretty simple.

I have always told him no one should judge another's personal relationship. It's their business. It's not mine nor the church nor the government's business.

[libnnc]

26. I had "crushes" on both boys and girls, but

I never had that intense sexual attraction to guys, just women (older women to be exact :evilgrin:).

I don't think I really "chose" anything accept to go with the physical cues that my body was telling me.

I wouldn't want to be exclusively heterosexual, (I do have a little thing for Ray Liotta...I can't explain it).

I like being a lesbian. No well of loneliness for me :bounce:

[mairceridwen]

29. I don't believe that anything as complicated as sexuality

Can be reduced to something as simple as "choice"

I do believe that sexual orientation is formed by a very complicated process involving both genetic and social processes.

I believe that people "choose" their sexuality to the extent that they choose the way that they express themselves sexually, for some people that means acting out according to a deeply felt "orientation," while others act according to other desires, wanting to be more unconventional and/or open and experimental.

Personally, I think that the way fundamentalist christians (and others) treat ALL sexuality is dehumanizing, but with gays getting the short end of the stick with respect to rights and liberties.

Like another poster here, I refuse to have this argument. Luckily, my most conservative relatives are individuals who find homosexualilty kind of *icky* but have expressed their disgust with the administration's obsession with it when there are so many other issues they should be concerned with. Either that, or they know I'll blast them if they say anything otherwise.

I remember when I *discovered* boys. I remember when I discovered *girls.* There was a 13 year difference, though hindsight reveals many latent tendencies. What does that mean? I don't know. One thing I have realized is that you can never really *choose* who you can be attracted to, queer or not. But there are things that you can choose when it comes to your sexuality and this is a good healthy thing...our options, so long as they are safe(r), sane, and consensual, should be open.

Annoying Lesbians Until Graduation* not withstanding, I think attempting to claim and choose the contours of one's sexuality is good and should be encouraged. Though I will admit that most people aren't quite ready for that.

I knew an older woman who *chose* to be a lesbian. What happened was she had two abusive heterosexual relationships and decided she was done with men. She started becoming involved in radical feminist group (this was in the 70s). Eventually, she became intimate with one and now they've been together for like 30 years. She went from politically woman-identified to sexually woman-identified. Is she a lesbian? Would she have become one had she met a really nice, non-abusive guy? What difference does it make?


Isn't all masturbation inherently queer by virtue of it's non-procreative nature and the fact that you are having sex with someone who is the EXACT SAME gender as you are? Don't answer that, I'm just venting.

I LOATHE the right wing and their obsession with other people's sex lives...that is sick. Even listen to Rev. Fred Phelps...he says anal copulation so many times, you know, I mean you just KNOW he wants to get some of that.


*So long as LUGs find other LUGs and stop breaking the hearts of my students, more power to them. ;)

[ZombieNixon]

35. Dude, you got in trouble in 1st grade for drawing naked girls, too?

Awesome, so did I! As far back as I can remember, I've been attracted to girls.

Thing about being gay (at least gay men), is that, if it weren't for the whole sex part, homosexuality is essentially hanging out with your buddies all the time! ;)

[ruggerson]

36. Interesting...

I can remember my first "sexual" attractions (tho I had no idea that's what they were) were as far back as first and second grade.

There is no way in hell sexual orientation is a choice - it's an ingrained part of your makeup.

What's interesting is that this is one of the fundie's biggest lies, and it's a whopper. I think rational people, who think about it, realize that the fundies are lying about this in order to push their political agenda.

After all, what would they do if it were definitively proven that nature, or God, or biology or whatever hotwired a minority of the population to be attracted to members of their own sex. It would blow their entire political agenda out of the water.

Which is why I think this is one argument we can win with rational middle of the roaders. And any crack in the fundie armor will eventually lead to chinks, which will eventually lead to their entire fictional reality crumbling around their heads. Because the reality is their movement is based on lies, deception and divorced from reality.

A political movement based on magical, illogical thinking can't last forever. Our job is to help speed along the process of destroying their fictions.

[readmoreoften]

38. But it is already proven and it doesn't work

Anywhere from .3% to 1% (depending on the global population) of persons born are intersexed. These children often have their penises and clitorises removed and doctors instruct the parents to not even mention it to the children themselves. Many people are literally of a third biological sex. This is no new phenomenon, there have been 3rd sex (and 4, 5th sex) persons since antiquity (by birth and by alteration, ie. eunuchs).

What does the RW say about intersex children? That the poor darlings should be forced to become boys and girls because there HAS to be two sexes. Some children have their penises cut off and they are raised as girls simply because their infant penises were judged too small (a condition called micropenis).

So if the RW finds their gay gene it will only make gay another disease to be cured. And our love and our lives and our history would be erased. This will not prove that homosexuality is natural to them anymore than cancer is natural.

[Az]

40. My standard reply is: Why do you like icecream

Assuming they do like icecream. I didn't decide to like Icecream. I came to realise that I liked icecream.

If they can handle the icecream notion then ask them why they like the particular genetalia they like. For the life of me I cannot think of a rational reason I like breasts. I simply get a buzz from them. If they can come up reason they like the things they do and how they chose to like them I will be astounded.

[No Exit]

44. I honestly believe--and mind you, I am

a person who formerly voted for republican candidates and even posted on freerepublic --that there is definitely a genetic factor at work.

I mean, I even thought that back when I was deluded by the so-called "conservative" mindset.

(PS Thanks to the horror that is Shrub, I will never dirty my hands by voting for any repukelican again... but that's another story.)

[Stirk]

45. I've known a few people who "decided" to experiment, yeah.

But I really think they were just alot more comfortable with their sexuality than the average person.

My own opinion is that we're "programmed" to express affection. Were it not for cultural taboos, the majority of people would have had at least some sort of homosexual experience at one time or another.