Anyone else doesn't believe in collective guilt/punishment?

[quinnox]

I see this often on Du, a mindset that since "America" did this or that, well no wonder 9/11 happened and that no wonder all the foreigners hate us and it is all our fault.

Or I see some Duers apologizing for slavery and other things that happened long ago. Like there is some kind of Klingon blood stain that goes through generations.

I don't accept this at all. I did nothing to offend other countries or religions. I am not responsible for Iraq, or the deaths there. I didn't vote for Bush or his policies. I am an individual, not part of a borg collective and I reject any notions of collective guilt or punishment.

[porphyrian]

1. Guilt, like fear, is just another tool to control the masses.

If you are reacting to either without an immediate detectable cause, chances are you're being manipulated. For more information, contact any major organized religion.

[GodlessBiker]

2. Collective guilt will only work if you can also have collective pride.

[bloom]

3. I was reading someone's description of Iraq

yesterday.

At first they recognized that it was Bush and his policies - perhaps people who voted for him - that they were against. Now - it's pretty much all Americans.

I think people in a country - to varying degrees - benefit and are responsible for what that country does. There are a few who are in jail because of protests of various sorts - and I would give them a pass - but that's it.

[Justitia]

4. I do feel a deep sense of shame about what has been done "in our names"

I hope against hope that the rest of the world can see that we don't buy into the crap Bush spews. I have never been ashamed of my country until this point in history.

I don't feel "guilt", I feel shame, as I am part of the collective "America" and I guess I am an idealist in that I believed our country, collectively, should be better than this.

I don't feel responsible for Bush - I did what I could to stop him.
I just feel ashamed of the actions of the world face of "America" right now.

[G_j]

9. yes shame is a good word

and I share that.

& most Americans have at one time or another benefited from the exploitation of the planet and it's people.
cheap gas, bananas etc...

[forgethell]

5. How do you

apply this to the "reparations" issue?? Just curious.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tactical Progressive]

7. So we can feel pride in America's good

but need not feel shame in its bad?

We can take credit for America's successes
but deny responsibility for its failures?

Sounds like centrist American thinking to me. Even if it is immoral, unethical and completely hypocritical, it's probably good for getting elected. Works for Republicans.

[gratuitous]

8. You're mixing several different things

"No wonder foreigners hate the United States" doesn't necessarily lead to "it's all our fault." However, when the United States as a national program or policy violates the Geneva Conventions, launches an unjust invasion based on known falsehoods, and kills foreign nationals whose only crime seems to be that they got in the way of our military's indiscriminate bombing and shooting, then some guilt would necessarily accrue to anyone in the country.

I would say you as a U.S. citizen are absolved of all guilt or fault if you: (1) didn't vote for any of the elected officials who have either authorized these actions or made appropriations for tax dollars to be spent on them; (2) don't pay any taxes that go to these actions; and (3) take an active stance in word and deed against these actions.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

10. Since it's impossible for pretty much anyone to meet.........

the criteria of your second paragraph in order to avoid responsibility of this Governments actions, you are saying that I am responsible for the invasion and occupation of Iraq?

That's rich.

[gratuitous]

12. Not totally and solely

But yes, as a participant in the system of the United States government, as a taxpayer and voter, you do share some of the responsibility for what our nation does.

Or do you, as an earlier poster posited, only wish to take credit for any of the good our country does, while avoiding all responsibility for what it does wrong?

[freestyle]

11. What about collective benefit or collective harm?

We Americans benefit from injustices done throughout history by our government in our name. Other people around the world have been harmed by those same actions. The results do carry on for generations, both the benefits and the harm. Within the U.S., almost all of us have benefitted from the horrors done to Native Americans. The legacy of slavery and Jim Crow is still with us. Unless any of us is working to right wrongs and redress our ill-gotten gains, then we bear the collective guilt, because we reap the collective benefit.

[Monkie]

13. but it is our tax dollars at work,done in our name,

our pension funds fuel the transnational corporations.
saying we dont believe in collective guilt doesnt change certain facts.
we dont have the excuse of not knowing whats going on.
and the dying wont stop until enough people do take responsibility.
and if americans dont do this themselves we have history and the german experience to remind us where this could lead.

[DivinBreuvage]

14. I've got news for you. When Soviet troops are sitting in downtown Berlin

You're going to be as much of a Nazi as Hitler himself, as far as they're concerned. Good luck explaining your POV to them, though.