Breaking: Pope's condition 'grave' (ABC Radio News)

[Padraig18]

ABC Radio is quoting 'un-named sources close to the Pope' as saying his condition is 'grave'. Doctors may perform a tracheotomy on him shortly to assist him with his breathing.

[Wat_Tyler]

1. Unfortunate choice of word, given the circumstances.

Freudian on ABC's part, perhaps?

[Democrats_win]

8. Yes, very odd wording, why not "serious?"eom

[Padraig18]

15. 'Grave' is Old World formal for 'dying', normally.

At least that's what they mean when they use it in Ireland.

[Wat_Tyler]

40. Oh, I know what the word means, Padraig,

I just query the decision to use it.

[Padraig18]

44. I think it was deliberate.

I have the distinct feeling that they think he may not survive, and they are trying to 'cue' us about that fact.

[Wat_Tyler]

47. Yep. That's what I'm thinking.

[Padraig18]

63. The 'why' behind the operation is very disturbing.

The need to secure his airway in such a fashion so soon after he was re-admitted to the hospital concerns me deeply.

[Vanje]

53. Perhaps the word they were looking for is...

...moribund.

Somehow, that sounds even less pleasant

[cthrumatrix]

2. CNN same thing.... the "un-named source" bothers me

[GodlessBiker]

3. That's what they usually say after a person has died to get people ready.

[cal04]

4. Tracheotomy for Pope: report

DOCTORS treating Pope John Paul II at Rome's Gemelli hospital were today consulting whether to perform a tracheotomy on the 84-year-old head of the Roman Catholic Church to relieve his breathing difficulties, Italy's ANSA news agency reported.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12366181-23109,00.html
"A tracheotomy runs a serious risk of infection. An aperture is opened in the throat, but by doing this, the throat's natural filter is eliminated," Professor Giovanni d'Urso, an Italian respiratory specialist, told RAI state television.
Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro Valls said a medical bulletin detailing John Paul II's condition would be released on Friday.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050224/323/fd7bm.html

[Warpy]

26. People live for many years with permanent tracheostomies

sure, it's better to be able to live without one. My question is why they'd consider one. If he needs temporary ventilation, an endotracheal tube would be the way to go.

It seems like the poor old thing is being cursed with the best care money can buy.

Sometimes, and 84 with Parkinson's is a good time, people just need to let go.

[cyberpj]

5. Nice of him to come back just to bash gays before relapsing -

sorry - I have no respect for religious icons. I speak to my higher power directly.

[skids]

7. There is some level of doubt...

That the words attributed to him were actually his. At this point, he may be nothing more than a flesh puppet for others in the vatican.

Though I agree, there's no room for a middleman in personal faith.

[cyberpj]

20. Looks like they took it from a book - and it's in quotes here:

ROME (Reuters) - Homosexual marriages are part of "a new ideology of evil" that is insidiously threatening society, Pope John Paul says in a new book published Tuesday.

Although I would readily believe someone else wrote it for him while he's in this condition.

Like I said, I wonder how much Bush Co contributed to the church for that?

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050222/2005-02-22T201215Z_01_L22608092_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-POPE-BOOK-DC.html

[Warpy]

29. Yeah, sounds like it came from Ratzinger's pen to me

I have little use for popes in general, but this one has been a little more mellow and reasoned in his rhetoric than that.

Ratzinger is scum, and he's probably going to be the next pope.

[cyberpj]

43. Nothing ever to prove, not even investigations with this admin BUT

So many people are very conveniently "dying" to make way for others who just happen to be sympathetic to (or bought by) Bush Co.

Granted, this is a very old - very ill man and probably doesn't deserve this particular question but.... well... I don't doubt anything any more.

I think a part of their strategy is to keep major events happening so fast there's no time to ask any questions.

[Richard Steele]

57. "Some level of doubt" is putting it kindly.

If you've seen any recent video of him, it's VERY clear that he is close to a 'vegetative state' most of the time, and has been for quite awhile.

I have ALOT of issues with the EVIL actions of the Roman Church, but even I feel sad for this man.

I agree, he is just a puppet at this point. He is LITERALLY carried to official functions, where he sits with his head lolling on his shoulder, his eyes unfocused, completely immobile and unresponsive.

And we are supposed to believe that he is composing these long dictates and diatribes every day while 'off-camera'?
Puh-leeze!

[whistle]

6. Prayer......God, please help us all.

[Goldmund]

17. Why do you think the Pope's death will affect "us all"?

[Padraig18]

19. Because he's the spiritual leader of 1.1 billion people, perhaps? n/t

[Goldmund]

25. "Spritual leader"... That's indeed interesting.

Now if I only understood how the Pope himself has affected most of those 1.1 billion people, and, implicitly, how his absence will affect them, we'll be getting somewhere.

[Padraig18]

30. I'm at a loss how to explain it.

To those of us who are Catholics, he is our 'spiritual father'. That is the best I can do to explain it to you.

[Goldmund]

34. Cool, I'm not attacking you -- I am simply at a loss how to understand it.

I don't know what kind of a relationship with the Pope you have had. Is it what he said? What he did? Or is it just the figurehead factor?

[Padraig18]

39. An analogy might help.

Just as many children don't always agree with everything their own fathers may do or say, they nonetheless love them for who they are; this is quite analogous to how I feel about His Holiness. There are many issues I do not agree with him about--- primarily reproductive rights, gays and the role of women in the Church--- but I have a tremendous respect for him for his commitment to political equality, social and economic justice, and basic human rights.

No offense taken; I was just momentarily at a loss to explain my feelings.

:)

[Goldmund]

42. Thanks for the explanation

But I guess what I'm having trouble understanding is this whole "father" factor -- a "father" is someone you grow up with and who you usually live with and who, unavoidably, has a huge influence over you. That's what I don't get -- the INFLUENCE. What influence did John Paul II have over you?

Let me rephrase -- would you still feel this way if you thought that he did nothing good? Would he still be your "father", as your real father would?

[Padraig18]

51. Fair question

He is the only Church 'father' I've ever known (I'm not quite 22),and as such, I've never known the Church under any other Pope. For that reason, he has had a huge influence upon my spritual (and political) development, As far as how I would feel if I had thought he did nothing good, I doubt that I woud be as sad as I am at the prospect of his death, frankly.

As an orphan, I have had reason to be aware of His Holiness' genuine concern for and special love of children, and that always provided a measure of comfort to me growing up; for that reason, as well, the prospect of his death saddens me.

[Goldmund]

52. Thanks muchly!

:)

[Padraig18]

54. You're welcome.

:)

[Bridget Burke]

28. Although his policies in sexual matters are conservative....

He's been a "liberal" pope in many ways.

The next one could be worse.

[Goldmund]

38. It isn't about whether you see boobies on TV, it's far more serious

The anti-contraception policies he instituted and the Church propagated have been directly involved in the spread of AIDS in Africa.

From Catholic News:

Catholic leaders in Africa have pledged to step up their involvement in the fight against the AIDS pandemic, while continuing to reject the use of condoms to fight the disease.

"The church says one must be faithful in marriage and save oneself for marriage," said Senegal Bishop Alexandre Mbengue. "We cannot cave in to the current trend."

According to the UN agency UNAIDS sub-Saharan Africa is hardest hit by AIDS, being home to more than two-thirds of those infected with HIV worldwide - 29.4 million out of 42 million.

Congo's Kinshasa Archbishop Dominique Bulamatari said: "Using condoms as a means of preventing AIDS can only lead to sexual promiscuity."

http://www.cathnews.com/news/310/53.php

[Richard Steele]

65. That's very true

As far as Popes go, he's been very liberal and foreward-thinking...

MOST Popes have been WORSE, on average. (Bearing in mind that the AVERAGE encompasses 1700 years or so)

I really fear that the next Pope may be a product of 'conservative backlash' within the Cardinals' machiavellian 100-way hegemony...

The next Pope will either be another true leader, who drags the CHURCH into the 21st century...
or a Neanderthal conservative, who dreams of restoring the 'good ol' days' of Inquisition and excommunication.

Smart money is NOT on the 'True Leader' scenario.

[whistle]

31. Why does my prayer bother you?

[Goldmund]

35. I'm not bothered, I am stumped

[whistle]

45. Perhaps if you meditate, the answer will come....

[Goldmund]

48. Don't get defensive, I'm not attacking you

I do think that the Church has been mostly a force for evil (full disclosure). But that's beside the point. I find it the whole Pope phenomenon fascinating, and asking a Fundie about it would be useless -- so I'm asking people who are ideologically closer to me, smarter in general, and whom I trust more.

[whistle]

56. Fair enough, the Catholic Church has a world membership of...

...close to 1.1 billion persons or about 17% of the world's population. Most catholics worship and follow the word and guidance of this Pope, especially during these most dangerous of times. To be without a leader of such a substantial church for any extended time, would be risky on many levels, so for the sake of all catholics of which I am not one, although I do believe in God, and for the rest of the world, whether they are believers in some greater power of their understanding or not, I humbly pray for help in the broadest sense of the word, which is for good, peace and prosperity for all, however God chooses to provide that.

[whistle]

46. dupe

[qanda]

9. Did Bush make a detour and slip something in his communion?

"We have to get Gannon out of the news!" :tinfoilhat:

On Edit: I am only joking. I hope my post doesn't bring offense to anyone.

[HereSince1628]

10. I am not sure how a tracheotomy would assist pneumonia.

Anyone with medical experience...is this evidence of something other than pneumonia as we were told earlier or something else?

[IndianaGreen]

14. This is probably related to Parkinson's Disease

and the Pope could very well be in the final stages of Parkinson's.

[LiberalinNC]

16. Hope this helps w/ your question.

tracheostomy is an opening surgically created through the neck into the trachea (windpipe). A tube is usually placed through this opening to provide an airway, and to remove secretions from the lungs. This tube is called a tracheostomy tube or trach tube.
Description Return to top

General anesthesia is used. The neck is cleaned and draped. Surgical cuts are made to expose the tough cartilage rings that make up the outer wall of the trachea. The surgeon then cuts two of these rings and inserts a tracheostomy tube.
Indications Return to top

A tracheostomy may be performed because of:
An inherited abnormality of the larynx or trachea
Severe neck or mouth injuries
Breathing corrosive material smoke or steam
A large object blocking the airway
Paralysis of the muscles that affect swallowing
Long-term unconsciousness or coma
Risks Return to top

The risks for any anesthesia are:
Reactions to medications
Problems breathing

Sad news about the Pope.

[Padraig18]

18. They're saying the general anesthesia is the greatest risk.

:(

[LiberalinNC]

21. Probably in his case because of his declining health.

[HereSince1628]

22. Thanks...lots of possibilities to pick from...

Guess we'll wait for further bulletins.

[LiberalinNC]

37. Your welcome...If I was to pick one,

I'd probably say "Paralysis of the muscles that affect swallowing" due to his Parkinson disease. When a trach is done, it generally means that a serious condition is occurring.

[ohio_liberal]

61. MSNBC

suggests that he can't handle the pneumonia/mucous secretions because of the Parkinson's, hence the trach to make management easier.

[bluestateguy]

11. I wish him well

What I dread even more is the religious warfare that is likely to break out on this board after his day comes. Some people here will be ruthless in trashing the Pope after his death.

[Wat_Tyler]

13. There will be assholes on both sides.

Just remember that, and try not to be one of them. That's what I'll be doing.

[Roland99]

23. Exactly. There are, imo, too many up here that take pleasure in suffering

esp. when those suffering are on "the other side."

[GodlessBiker]

41. I wouldn't call it pleasure. I would call it sincere indifference.

[Roland99]

50. Oh, there are plenty of here that take pleasure.

Just look at the ripping of Laura Bush's fashion sense.

Or, there was some RW pundit from MSNBC or FOX or something that had a physical ailment and some up here were practically jumping up and down (this in the face of criticizing Freepers that took joy in Hillary's fainting spell.)

Hypocrites exist on both sides.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

24. As do I.........

and I concur with the rest of your post as well.

Sad.

[NYYFan]

27. Add me too

This is sad, regardless of politics.

[IndianaGreen]

12. BBC crawler is saying that surgery is being considered to help breathing

This sounds more ominous than a simple tracheotomy. The Pope will be on a ventilator for sure!

[IndianaGreen]

32. BREAKING: Pope Taken to Operating Room (Reuters)

Reports: Pope Taken to Operating Room
Thu Feb 24, 2005 02:21 PM ET

ROME (Reuters) - Pope John Paul has been taken to an operating room in Rome's Gemelli hospital and might have surgery to help him breathe more easily, Italian media said on Thursday.

A television report said earlier that doctors were considering performing a tracheotomy, where a small opening is cut into the neck and the windpipe so air can directly flow into the lungs.

Sky Italia television and state broadcaster RAI both reported that "everything was ready for a tracheotomy" and said the 84-year-old Pope was already in the operating theater.

REUTERS

[Nikepallas]

33. He doesn't have long (if he is not extremely close to the end now) they

are trying to protect/get catholics ready for this idea. think of it this way when you know someone is very ill and suffering it is almost a release and relief for others when that person of importance passes away but someone who passes suddenly and without warning really upsets the human Psyche. Some people(hard to believe but it is true) do not see the pope as being seriously ill even though all the signs are their I know some older people who believe the fact that he is carried or wheeled around is part of the mystic of being pope-- as a result it would come as a great shock.

[LiberalEsto]

36. How convenient! B*sh and Co. are already in Europe

if there should be a funeral soon.

Nonetheless, I hope the Pope either recovers quickly, or passes on - without pain or suffering - to whatever comes next.

[maveric]

55. When John-Paul dies, bu$h will annoint himself Pope W, I.

Then send troops into the Vatican to subdue the Swiss Guard and rescue artworks and other artifacts from the demon-worshipping catholics.

[Hardrada]

49. Our press has always largely ignored

JPII on his good stance on Peace and Social Justice issues and has concentrated on his conservative views on sexuality. This was a serious distortion. I think a balanced anthology of his writings would be in order. My own (former) church has been very ambivalent on these same issues and less antiwar than the Pope.

[Bridget Burke]

60. Certain issues are "sexy"--& the pseudo Christian Fundies agree....

But all that Peace & Social Justice stuff is embarrassing to Bush & his allies in the fake Christian camp.

[ohio_liberal]

58. Trach

means he's going to be on a ventilator for a while, no?

[maveric]

64. Not neccesarily.

He may just be hooked up to a nebulizer-type machine called a "Blow By". it basically keeps the airway moist aiding the breathing process.

[Cuban_Liberal]

59. May the surgeons and nurses be skilled.

This is terrible news.

:(

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

66. How incredibly crass!

:wtf:

[OneMoreDemocrat]

67. Nice.

.

[Padraig18]

68. Italian new media reporting...

... that the tracheotomy has been performed.