Can the College of Cardinals take over when the Pope is incapacitated?

[IndianaGreen]

There appears to be something afoot in the CNN and MSNBC TV coverage of the Pope. The Pope is on a ventilator, unable to speak. The CNN correspondent in Rome is reporting a flurry of activity, apparently they are expecting VIPs arriving at the Gemelli Policlinic. The question has been raised as to who will run things while the Pope is incapacitated.

Modern medical technology can keep people "alive" almost indefinitely. Can the College of Cardinals take over when the Pope is incapacitated?

[Ellen Forradalom]

1. They're gonna leave the Catholic church to the Cards?

The Red Sox should be in charge--after all, they won the series :P

[IndianaGreen]

4. Alright, alright, alright, it was a serious question

I don't think the Vatican has any plans on the shelf to deal with a situation in which a Pope is kept alive by artificial means, and is unable to perform his duties as Pope.

Back to your comment, I am a Yankee fan and I hate the Red Sox. :P

[dalloway]

2. I suspect they've been in control for some time now...n/t

[Richard Steele]

6. Exactly so, dalloway. And hardly the first time.

[bleedingheart]

3. my bets are that they will ask as many cardinals to come together

in order to make the decision to let the current pope die of natural causes and then they will elect a new pope.

I have a feeling they have been preparing for this event given JP's health.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Isn't "unplugging" a patient considered evil by the Church

or does the Church condone the "unplugging" but condemns taking active measures to expedite death, as in the Schiavo case? Or is there a double standard as Chris Hitchens alluded to in The Missionary Position.

[bleedingheart]

11. there is a double standard...

for instance when a woman is in childbirth and both she and the baby are at risk...by the church's standards the good catholic doctor shouldn't make the decision to save the mother at the expense of the child. So if both die...it is god's will

In the pope's case I think that it could be argued that it is God's will that he is ill but that they can choose to hold back care and leave it up to the will of God....

Perhaps there is a Jesuit priest who might be viewing this who can chime in...because you have brought up an interesting situation given the current situation.

[davepc]

20. Removal from life support is not euthanasia

There is no necessity for extra-ordinary measures to preserve life in the catholic doctrine.

If he cant breathe on his own then its perfectly ethical and moral under catholic doctrine to turn off life support.

[gratuitous]

7. Hard to say

My guess is that the Vatican Curia would run the Church during the Pope's incapacity. The College of Cardinals is too unwieldy and far-flung to provide any meaningful leadership.

I am intrigued, however, by the notion of the Pope lapsing into a irreversible stage of sickness in which he can't communicate but remains alive. I think it would be consistent with Catholic dogma that every possible means would be used to keep the Pope alive, as painful, inhuman and horrifying as the prospect seems to me.

But if someone decides to "pull the plug" and let nature take its course with the Pope, what will that do to Catholic pronouncements on the sanctity of life? Will they have to generate a special papal exception for allowing someone to die? Will the patriarchy become more sensitive to the real-world concerns of ordinary people who don't have the vast wealth of the Catholic Church to maintain someone on life support?

I'm not "happy" about the Pope's condition or state by any means. But if the end of his life causes a re-examination of Catholic doctrine, such that faithful Catholics no longer have to choose between obeying unreasonable and inhumane dogma and the deepest yearnings of their hearts, then perhaps it would be a good thing for the Pope to linger for a while.

[bleedingheart]

13. There are catholic hospices...

so technically that advocates "letting go" and letting the will of God take over....

http://www.catholichospice.org/English/FAQ.htm

[dalloway]

16. as a thinking Catholic very, very unhappy with the Church's direction...

I am very intrigued by the questions you float here. I'd love to see the hierarchy caught in a web of hypocrisy where their reality and their rules collide.

I do, however, disagree that the end of his life will cause a reexamination of Catholic doctrine--indeed, I might expect to see an even more conservative pope installed in with the intent to reign in the wayward American church. It is my understanding that the American church is not only the most problematic for Rome, but also the most lucrative. Oh, the conflicts...

I am a Catholic with my faith hanging on by a thread. I haven't left the Catholic church--they have been leaving me.

[Bridget Burke]

19. The Church allows "pulling the plug"

But the Pope may be kept alive for political reasons.

Clue: Quite a few faithful Catholics respect the Pope but make up their own minds about such things as birth control. Lengthening an old man's agony won't change this.

[Walt Starr]

8. Man, the body of the Pope could be kept alive for YEARS!

What a predicament atholic dogma has placed upon itself!

[Padraig18]

9. Short answer is 'no'.

The various heads of congregations, etc., will continue to run them just as they have, and the Curia will make any major decisions that must and can legally be made by them.

Church law forbids euthanasia, but it does not requre 'extraordinary' life-prolonging measures.

[ashmanonar]

10. i thought they weren't allowed to use any modern medical technology

to keep the pope alive? i thought it was the rule that his secretary would check to see if he was alive, then they would choose a new pope if he was dead?

or is that fiction?

[Padraig18]

14. No, no, no, no, no.

It's a ritual after the Pope dies that the Camerlengo taps his forehead with a small, silver hammer and asks "Are you alive, X?" 3 times. They can use whatever medical technology is available to keep him alive, the same as they can on anyone else.

:)

[ashmanonar]

21. oh, ok.

i was not sure. thanks for the info!

[Padraig18]

22. You're welcome.

:hi:

[LiberalEsto]

12. They need a Vice-Pope

though perhaps they could come up with a nicer title

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

15. Quasi-Pope?

Lieutenant Pope?

Number 2?

:shrug:

[IndianaGreen]

17. The TV talking heads are talking about Papal resignation

as the Italian media has speculated for years, but it is all just speculation. As this Pope was heard to say, there is no room in the Church for a Pope Emeritus.

I think the next Pope will have to address the issue of Papal succession when there is incapacity, perhaps by calling a Church Council. I don't think the Pope can do this on his own due to the belief that being Pope is not just a job, but the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

[neweurope]

18. They do, right now it's cardinal Ratzinger.

A fossile himself, I'm no friend of his.

------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[zipplewrath]

23. Papal Theology

There is some gross misunderstanding of the papacy here. The pope isn't "president of the catholic church". He is the vicar of Christ. The church has a whole structure to administer the earthly needs of the church business. The pope is a spiritual position more than a functional one. He serves Christ, not the church. He TENDS to the church. There would be little reason to forcibly keep him alive other than to prevent someone from succeeding him. And there is little reason to do that since it hasn't been exactly a secret that he's sick and folks who want to politic have been doing so for years.

[IndianaGreen]

24. I don't think that the Vatican will keep the Pope alive at all cost

if what you say is true. Thanks for the info.

[MsTryska]

25. who read Angels and Demons by Dan Brown?

that should explain who takes over and how it all works.


I read it but i've forgotten.

[ashmanonar]

26. i read it, and it does explain.

but i take dan brown with a grain of salt. yes, he is tremendously knowledgeable, but he's also writing a book that's meant to be entertainment. entertainment is not necessarily truth.

now, with regards to what you said: padraig18 says it pretty succinctly further up in the thread, the camerlengo calls out to the pope three times, and checks his pulse...then if the pope doesn't respond or have a pulse, they begin the process of choosing a new pope.

technically, noone "takes over" until the new pope is chosen: nominally the church shuts down, and all the cardinals are shut up in a room together to choose the new pope.

however, i'm sure the camerlengo and various other officials keep a hold on the situation. it's as if the president went missing: the vp would take control, and act as the president, but not actually take the oaf--oops, i mean oath of office...:D

[MsTryska]

27. that's right...the camerlengo was who i was thinking of.

i thought he took over the day to day admin duties while the cardinals were doing their thing.

thanks for remembering far more of that book then i do!

[ashmanonar]

28. heh.

i remember far more of every book i read than is probably healthy...i'm such a bookworm.