Depression and the state of the world

[ghost_of_thoreau]

look at the average depressed person....why are they depressed?

most likely because they are thoughtful, introspective people who don't fit in with society.......the same society who blasts the latest headlines about Paris Hilton and the stock market 24/7.....

think about it.....creativity has no value in our society, only business and competition. The artistic, creative, people who think are branded "lazy", and a drain on resources......they are made fun of because they havn't "conformed" and they got a "useless" fine arts degree....

the fault lies in the societal definition of "success", rather than in the average depressed person. The "depressed" person is thinking clearly. They have a good reason to be depressed, because our society is absolutely retarded.

[knowbody0]

1. take this even further

to "what is art" in these days, and even further, when commissioned, does not art cease to exist?
many moons ago i dropped out of the art world because of the contamination and committed to making my life my art.
good luck to you, reality sucks

[pauliedangerously]

41. And taking it even further...

There's also all of the confusion people experience with conflicting information, such as the evolution vs creationism conflict; moral issues dealing with the likes of abortion, marriage, controlled substances, and single-parenthood.

Every day new scientific discoveries are made, and every day people with influence over others develop ways to ridicule them and keep the populace in the dark

I think that deep down inside, most people know that they're suckers but they don't have the guts to confront it, so they go along with everyone around them because it FEEEELS GOOOOOOOD.

I find it amusing how American folklore glorifies nonconformity, yet most Americans conform to whatever pathetic little sub-culture they surround themselves with.

It's the irony. "Oh Bartleby, oh humanity."

[depakid]

2. Those may be reasons for situational depression, but

they have little or nothing to do with a diagnosis of bipolar or unipolar depression, which has a large physiologial component, is often refractory- persistent and very difficult to treat.

The artistic, creative, people who think are branded "lazy", and a drain on resources......they are made fun of because they haven't "conformed" and they got a "useless" fine arts degree....

This is very true- and a common complaint. It's one reason why there are quite a number of active, online forums and support groups- and why like people often go to meetings in their communities, sponsored by outfits like DBSA (the Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance).

[donheld]

3. They may have little or nothing to do with bipolar or unipolar depression

However, They do make things even harder for those people.

[depakid]

4. No question about that

which is why clinical depression (which is largely the result of genetic conditions) needs to be treated holitistically. Sometimes, that means meds, diet and supplements- but it also requires therapy of some sort (cognitive therapy is a popular choice) and lifestyle changes.

just like popping a pill alone won't "fix" patients- neither would living in a progressive paradise (though it would help). ;)

[aneerkoinos]

37. Holistic treatment

All for that.

But I would go even further and say the holistic cure is spiritual socialism. Seriously.

Pursuit of happiness, was said. American people are probably the most unhappy in the world, so should be pretty obvious by now that materialistic individualism aka consumerism just doesn't cut it. Stuff and more and more of stuff don't make people happy, just even more unsatisfied.

"Individualism" (what kind of individualism is it when every bloody individualist is acting the same, buying what advertisers launch as the newest coolest and most individualistic self-fulfilling stuff) don't make people happy either, there's some deep need to feel part of some community that dogma of egotistic individualism does not fulfill.

There is also reason why most people don't buy into the materialistic paradigm served by mainstream science. It just doesn't make any sense to people and goes against their most basic experience that consciouss mind is just epiphenomenon of matter and we are really nothing but deterministic walking zombies - well mostly we are, but that is not quite everything. There is some sense of whole/holy that is beyond words but most people have some familiarity with, in their guts people know that mind is just as real as matter. So the deep unsatisfaction that by necessity goes with the world explanation of the materialist paradigm drives many people to fundie christianity, which certainly does not make things generally better.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs is what I'm talking about, sortta. For people to be able to pursuit happiness with a moderate chance of success, first their basic material, individual and social needs need to be fullfilled, then comes spiritual pursuit. US society has stuck like a broken record on the level of individual needs. Thus: socialist spirituality!

[Karenina]

38. Thus: socialist spirituality!

Uh-oh, aneerkoinos... You said a BAD WORD!!! ;-) Amis have a psychosomatic allergy to it and begin itchin' an a'twitchin.

My favorite contemporary working-man's philosopher from the DDR made an analogy that really stuck with me. Oma opens the front door, looks out on the street and sees a profoundly changed Gesellschaft (I can't translate the sense of his use of the word- "society" is literal) She closes the door and goes back to the kitchen...

[Mairead]

46. 'Selfhood as electrochemical process'

I'm hoping that will turn out to be our time's phlogiston theory: plausible enough to entrap really fine minds, but grounded in bad premises.


Apropos depression, have you run across the ecopsychology movement? It's very Adlerian in its emphasis on the therapeutic power of agency, but intuitively it feels rock-solid to me, even though it can be argued that it's not much more than re-bottled displacement.

[Karenina]

49. Your sig line

says it all. ;-)

[Sugarbleus]

5. Good post...

I was about to point out the differences too.

The OP has a good point for the situational depressions we see. I casually call it STRESSSSSSSSSS

In that type of situational depression, one feels oppressed by the "rat race" and inability to "keep up". It's been my feeling (as a clinically depressed person on anti-depressants for years) that society is moving WAY TOO FAST! I don't know how people manage to enjoy life at the rate we are going. Too many changes and YES the PRESSURE TO CONFORM. I run into this pressure to conform all the time. It only dawned on me in the last couple of years that that is what I was feeling/seeing.

The conformity message is everywhere. I hate it. It is stifling to the creative mind and the passionate soul. Obviously we have to have some communal spirit in terms of, for example, law and order but when I get hints from friends/co workers or professionals like: Haven't you invested? You don't own your home? You yelled at a district attorney? (}() YOU GOT ANGRY AND TOLD THEM OFF????? You want to live a "simple life"?..you can't do that. Why don't you have a better job? How are you going to make a living doing that? etc. I just fold up or blow up.

[kineneb]

6. Input overload is what I call it

Too much information and no time to digest it. I am no longer in the rat-race, having moved to a rural county. And I don't miss it. My depression symptoms seem to be better under control here, so I don't need to see the shrink as often.

Pressure to conform is rough...but one can use humor to diffuse it...give them a slightly manical smile and say "I'm crazy, I don't need to (fill in blank)." Or maybe something like "I'm an anarchist, can't you see?" I told the hiring committee for my job that my worst trait was that I was cranky. Now they believe me!

I just tell folks I can't remember whatever, which is often true, since my memory has been damaged by repeated bouts of depression. (One of those nasty after-effects the docs never mention.)

[Sugarbleus]

8. ROFL!! Well said!!

And Good on Ya! LOL--->give them a slightly manical smile and say "I'm crazy,

I do believe I like you very much! :) Humor is most certainly the key in most situations...I'd be crying if not for laughing..

And I know what you mean about memory....'Say what?'

:hi:

[smirkymonkey]

15. Fear, fear, fear - that's what keeps these people in chains.

I feel much the same way you do and get many of the same fear-based admonishments concerning the way I live my life.

Easier said than done, but we can't buy into these lies or we will never transcend the "quiet desperation" level of existence. It takes a lot of courage to dismiss the rantings of the many and hold fast to your own truth, but it's the only way, I think.

[Sugarbleus]

21. Indeed-->"hold fast to your own truth"

Heard a man say once: You have to create your own reality. Sounds pretty damn good to me. :hi:

[Karenina]

17. "YOU CAN'T DO THAT!!!"

Yup, yup and YUP. Is it an inability or a simple refusal to keep up? Keep up with WHAT, I ask. Conform to THAT? You must be joking!!!
Great post, Sugarbleus.

[Sugarbleus]

22. LOL...yes indeedy

I HATE when they say: YOU CAN'T DO THAT!!!

I like your style too-->"Conform to THAT? You must be joking!!!"


I REFUSE to become a lemming!

:hug:

[shadowknows69]

13. Coming from someone who knows

When you're a clinical depressive to begin with and you get a daily dosage of situational depression, it makes for some dicey mornings.

[Sugarbleus]

24. AMEN to that!! n/t

[driver8]

52. Another Amen to that!

I have been treated for depression for a few years, and 9/11 really did a number on me. Not only did it make my depression worse, but I started having these severe anxiety attacks where I thought my heart was going to jump out of my chest!

I have to be careful of how much news I read...since it all seems to be bad lately it can really f*ck me up!

[vetwife]

32. Had a doc tell me I was depressed ..I had a reason my.

Mother died that day. She tried to get me to take meds. I HAD a REASON to be depressed. It was a natural reaction I would think to seeing a Mom die after months of suffering. Had worn me down. Of course I was depressed. Most stupid thing I had ever been told by a doctor !!!!!

[depakid]

35. Your story is all too common, vetwife

Some primary care physicians hand out anti-depresant samples like candy.

Like you said- of course you were depressed. What normal person wouldn't be?

[libertypirate]

7. It's not just artist....

It is creativity as a whole that has been stifled. It is one of the saddest realities we face because the powers that be control the intellectual property which without competition against, won't loose any value.

Innovation causes our economy to actually and fundamentally grow. How can it really be considered growth when the only the smallest minority of people measure nearly all the growth. Through creativity and innovation we all move forward, the creative process usually inspires others to be innovative as well. Although we all don't have big ideas we all tend to see things a little differently.

We are not being asked to see things differently?

Why do they just want us entertained?

lp
http://benumbment.blogspot.com/

[Sugarbleus]

10. I discovered in mid life that I actually had "creative bones" in my

body. woohoooooooooo I want to live a simple life, think, write, possibly invent...and I love working with my hands/making things for personal use or for sale.

Sitting in an office or something similar, wearing PANTYHOSE :puke: is the same thing as going to prison for me. My mind, my spirit doesn't tick-tock that way. I'd rather eat broken glass.

I like my privacy (when I can get any lol)and space; it gives my mind time to air out, calm down, and start the creative process. I wake up at night with 'ideas' about how to create this or that or an invention..have to write it down.

When not involved in all this political HELL (and I hope to Buddha it ends soon), I'll be back to my creative passions.

~~Peace~~

[smirkymonkey]

25. Gaaaaaaaahhh! Pantyhose! The ultimate tool of oppression!

I feel the same way you do, I am easing myself out of the corporate world because I would rather live in a box in the park that put up with the mind control shit of a corporation.

I really hope I win the lottery soon! :)

[Sugarbleus]

26. "Ooooh noooooo, Mr. Bill. I've got a run in my

pantyhose/chastity belt"!!!!!! I can think of at least 50 things to do with hosiery BESIDES wearing them LOL

With the exception of occasionally keeping my feet warm, I'll have no part in any of it.

LOTTERY? You and me both! :hi:

[kineneb]

29. Ah' hates pantyhose

My hands are so strong that I always stick my fingers through them. I just wear old ballet tights, the ones with the ripped up seat. Don't like pale pink or black, tough!

I could not imagine working at job where I had to wear the women's "corporate uniform." In winter I wear boots, pants, turtleneck sweaters, and fleece vests (barn, I mean, office was 48 deg. one morning). Summer attire is capri pants, sandals (no hose) and casual shirts. Thank goodness the official summer attire of Lake Co. is the Hawaiian shirt and shorts.

[knight_of_the_star]

27. Study investing

There are people who work maybe 40 hours a month because they are good at investing in different markets and make money off of that. If you can pull that off, then you will right your own paycheck, I'm trying to get started with that early so I won't have to worry about money.

[Dirk39]

9. Reminds me of these words from Bernhard Sumner from 1995

nSOMETIME IN JANUARY 1996 "This, what it is, I do not yet know. A collection of accumulated knowledge, ideas, memories, fact, surmise... who knows. Anyway, what I once considered private, seems to be public. Late the next night and I've just woken up to this most unsatisfying thought... One has to be a bastard to exist in this world full of them, but then I've always had the suspicion I took myself too seriously until I found myself too serious to take. Tonight is a horrible day. I have discovered the true meaning of two words: power and greed; power is in sex, also in drugs. Power is the feeling when something immense happens in return for little efforts, i.e. an assassin firing a gun or a junky shooting up, etc. The participant gets off on the execution just as much as the end result. Greed comes dressed in a velvet glove, greed is not the want to possess everything, greed is simply wanting more than the person next to you".

LATER "Cruelty occurs when people lose touch with the real world. In the nineties this is partly due to the fact that we are distanced from reality by a life we do not lead, therefore we are also distanced from one another. We experience the world through television and use drugs to enjoy social communication. We use machines instead of our bodies and when our bodies fail us, machines keep us alive. When we do not feel life, we do not feel what it is to be alive. We do not feel compassion, our neighbor is invisible. When he suffers, we turn the television off or simply register a blank. Existence is a bubble we feel will never burst. We can't decide how to vote because we need a new party. We've abandoned our world in favor of ourselves. We cover the ground in broken glass, then take off our shoes; we need to look again. Unemployment is the final insult to the individual, mass production was the first. Our education system is wrong, it takes no note of the subtleties of human nature, it places more importance on the memory of an individual than how memorable an individual is. It does not nurture talent, but rewards those who obey and allows them entrance to an exclusive club. This is wrong. The best are wasted. This is why society is disintegrating. Can't you see the spelling doesn't matter, because we are not saying anything anymore. It's called the power of silence, the right to which we lost in 1995."

© Bernard Sumner, Raise the Pressure.



Bernhard Sumner (Joy Division, New Order, Electronic)


Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Sugarbleus]

11. Excellent, stunning post!

With one exception for my taste: I rather enjoy a little weed every now and then, when I go to creation land. :smoke:

:hi: SB from California

[Dirk39]

12. Most New Order Fans in the U.S. didn't believe....

that Sumner did write these notes. They thought only one mind-blown european intellectual could write such a text. I never had any doubts.
But they were accusing at least Paul Morley.

Enjoy your little weed.


"Please don't take my drugs away
I'm gonna give them up someday"

Behind Close Doors,
Dirk

[Sugarbleus]

20. =o)

[smirkymonkey]

16. Brilliant!

Supposedly Bernhard Sumner was on Prozac when he wrote the songs for this album.

It seems as though if one sees the world clearly, depression is an inevitable result.

[smirkymonkey]

14. Take heart in the words of Krishnamurti...

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

Our society and our world are completely insane. If you step out of the stream of things long enough and just observe, you will find that it is absolute madness masquerading as normality.

Why wouldn't any sane person be at least somewhat depressed if they were truly aware of this level of reality? I think the trick is going beyond material reality to find a higher form of awareness that transcends our normal state of existence.

In some ways, I think that until humanity reaches a point of critical mass in higher consciousness, we have no hope of creating a better world. Maybe the madness will force more people to a breaking point and become the catalyst for launching a global spritual (not religious) awakening.

[Karenina]

19. That's a favorite of mine.

I've watched a lot of souls become corrupted by the "Ich AG" requirement for "success." :crazy:

Haven't quite mastered "the trick" either. Daily, by noon, my arms are crossed and I'm peering over my glasses to blur the words I'm reading as I say aloud, "You gotta be kiddin' me..." :SIGH:

[Dirk39]

47. "Ich AG"

Hello Karenina,
I guess "Ich-AG" someday will be remembered as just another german poetric approach along with "Arbeit macht frei".
And the Greens, who published an Election poster picturing two children with the slogan: "nachwachsende Rohstoffe" (renewable primary products).


Birth, school, work, death,
Dirk

[Just Me]

18. Well, valuing people for their material possessions rather than,...

,...for what they possess and offer as human beings does reflect a fairly dysfunctional culture, in my view, and does not exclusively depress/oppress the artistic and creative. All members of such a material-obsessed society suffer.

I've never personally experienced others judging me as lazy or making fun of me. The material-obsessed have found me as a sort of intrigue *LOL*. They simply do not understand my brand of "freedom" and are floored when I make statements like, ",...sure, I'd like to be wealthy and own a home and new car and whatnot but I'm not wealthy and I don't want to give up my freedom to a bank that binds me to a 15, 20, 30 year mortgage that I may not be able to pay off. I want to at least maintain my freedom to move whenever I please."

With respect to the 88+ million people in our country who suffer from some form of psychological distress, is that a symptom of a dysfunctional culture? I certainly believe so. It's pretty obvious who and what "possesses" the privilege of being valued.

[goodhue]

23. Never Really Been

Hey ain't it strange how some things never change
Ain't it strange how nothing stays the same?
You were thinkin' I was distressed about some universe oppressed
But I was just depressed about my last pinball game

[American Tragedy]

28. I've wondered about that myself.

I've been clinically depressed for years, in large part because I struggle to relate to people. I just don't really care about the things that others seem to want to talk about, like weddings, gossip, marital problems, celebrities, etc. I can handle it in small doses, but it exhausts me. It's like trying to speak a foreign language. No form of therapy will change that.

As I think about it, I realize that I joined this website because I was starving for substantive human interaction. There is nothing I'd love more than to be able to discuss art, books, history, satire, politics, and other subjects, and get others' feedback on them. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people seem to be distinctly turned off by that, as well as the fact that I enjoy fairly obscure music, movies, and hobbies.

It is so hard to be different. I've been somehow perceived as being different by adults and peers for literally as long as I can remember, and it's no exaggeration to say that it has been the cause of overwhelming pain, both physical and mental.

I still haven't figured it out.

[kineneb]

31. I am different, too

Only that as I have gotten older (well, over 40) it seems it is less difficult to be "eccentric". Where I was always the odd one out through high school, once I got to college, I felt less different. And now, I simply do not give a flip. I have taken up knitting and usually take it to places where I will be otherwise bored. Then I just shut out the dross and focus on handwork.

When I was in graduate school, beginning at age 40, I could not take the dreary black-dressed undergrads. They seemed to all be trying to make their own statement, but they were all making the "same" statement instead. Here I am, plump, blond, 40+, with my stuffed raccoon backpack (one of those kiddy backpacks) and bright pink clothes. If I am different, dammnit, I going to be really different.

And when the world really looks like it in very warm handbasket, then I get out my knitting or the spinning wheel. Very comforting, and productive at the same time. Yarn therapy is what I call it.

hang in there

[Digit]

33. I would look at you and realize you are authentic

I would see you on the street and wave give a friendly wave and smile.

Keep marching to your own drummer.
Can you even imagine the alternative? I can't!

[American Tragedy]

34. I wouldn't take the alternative, even if I were able.

That would obliterate all that I am and everything that I know.

But damn, it is lonely.

[femme.democratique]

40. I hear ya, American Tragedy!

Life can be very hard when you resist conformity and become marginalized. Whats worse, intelligent thoughtful people who buck the conformity know thay COULD change to conform but are smart enough to know that this would be your spiritual and intellectual death.

Fact is, I loathe many things that most Americans hold dear as part of our "culture". I hate most professional/college sports (except extreme sports). Sports in an of themselves are ok, but when I think about how much time and money people expend on sports, how sports are revered above things that REALLY matter, how violent people can become over sports, and how sports are used to control the population, I become physically ill. I hate most of what is on TV, I mean who gives a shit about celebrities and Survivor/Fear Factor bullshit? With the notable exceptions of South Park/Comedy Central, Animal Planet, Sundance Channel, HBO/Showtime shows, most educational programming, and of course Keith Olbermann, TV is a vast mind-control wasteland. I hate that using your intelligence means you are labeled a "snob" or an "elitist" when I'm really just a person who wants to use the skills I was blessed with...is that so bad???

[Blue_Tires]

30. good points

[Karenina]

36. Last week as I walked down the block

I passed a dozen people or so. No one looked at me. They were ALL, EACH AND EVERY ONE, yakking into these tiny gadgets held to their ears.
:crazy:

[Mabel Dodge]

39. I’m still pondering the pantyhose thing…

I didn’t realize they still made those damn things.

[DARE to HOPE]

42. I agree--there is a lot of dysfunction in our culture...

...and it challenges everyone, in all classes, genders and races, and causes a lot of depression.

But I also think that the corn and soy oil we consume by the gallon in our country is having a depressive effect on the brain, and also making us all obese.

Look it up--virgin coconut oil recharges the thyroid, upping our metabolism and making us happier. Especially if you add some omega-3s, either fish, flax or hemp, and some B vitamins.

Feeling better, we develop more resilience to listen to that inner drummer.

I also believe in God as my Author, my Creator, and in the sweep of history. That protects me greatly against the prevailing culture. If I am God's child, created in God's image, that gives me an idea of my own uniqueness and the gift I am to the world. I am not saying that there hasn't been some gnawing anguish in my life (I am also a creative type--musician) but it has helped me handle it, and strike a pretty independent path despite the pressure.

Daily walk around trees or water in the morning sun also helps blow the blues away. Look around the world, see how big and wonderful it is, and feel the warmth of God's Love breath down on you--God IS more powerful--even than the BFEE!

Hey--I almost forgot! If you can find it around you, go see the movie "Uncle Nino!" It addresses just these issues, and will cheer you up! :-)

[Nikia]

43. Mexicans immigrants become depressed in the U.S.

The longer they are here, the more likely they are to get depressed even if they are better off economically (I read it somewhere, but don't have the reference). So much for the American dream.
I think that it has to do with lack of community in much of America, a concentration on the nuclear family (which sometimes grows dysfunctional and stays contained that way) rather than extended family, the importance of materialism, and the American workplace.
We all want people to love us, people to love, to do meaningful work, to not be afraid for our survival, to be able to better our little world, and to find purpose and value in our lives. These are our naturual evolved goals as a species who lives socially. When we cannot get those things, depression or other mental disorders are the naturual result of not having our human needs met. A book that I am reading, The Science of Good and Evil, had a theory by a neurologist that states that depression is not a disease, rather a signal that tells us that something is wrong with us socially. Unfortunately American society does not seem interested in helping depressed people have their human needs met to remedy that.

[UdoKier]

44. What you're describing is different from clinical depression.

We all feel that way some of the time. The world is fucked-up, big time. It's normal to feel sad about that.


Depression means you have difficulty functioning and are unable to derive enough pleasure from your life to make it worth living.

I'm bummed out a lot about what's going on, but I have more than enough joy in life to keep me going.

[Lorien]

45. Funny thing is that as an artist, I was making $150,000 a year

during the Clinton years, that is. Everyone praised me and called me a "great success" even though most weren't interested in what I was creating, and even though I didn't like my job (illustrator/ animator for Disney). I was always invited to lunches (probably because I often picked up the tab), got lots of phone calls, was invited to parties. Now I'm living at the poverty level doing what I love (children's books). No more phone calls, no more lunches, no more parties-on one of the rare occasions that I talk to an old friend, they say "well, maybe you should start looking for a REAL job"! Hey, this is what I always wanted to do! Sure, I can't take two months off to travel through Europe, hell, it's hard to afford heat! But doesn't doing one's dream job count for anything? No. Our society worships wealth. Even on DU, one can't talk about the intrinsic worth of anything. Animals can't live unless someone can make a buck off of them. Forests shouldn't survive unless future profits or medicine can be taken from them. No activity is worthwhile unless it leads to financial wealth. It's the sickness of a RW consumer centered society. Money is our God, and the malls are our places of worship. No wonder Prozac use is on the rise!

[Dirk39]

48. I agree to a certain extent...

but in the world we live in, I would prefer to be a cat or a dog.

"Animals can't live unless someone can make a buck off of them."


True for most of them, but as a kind of obscene compensation for what is happening with us and our sisters and brothers, we lock in animals, seperate them from their real lives and treat them "better" than any human being.

Please think about it for minute: stupid human beings are buying dogs or cats and treat them as if they were human beings, misuse them to escape their loneliness, while at the same time they are eating chickens, pigs and Cattle and treat other humam beings like shit.

That's how ridiculous we are,

Miau from Germany,
Dirk

[Karenina]

50. I was comforted

reading many posts on this thread expressing EXACTLY what I currently feel... so profoundly verarscht, LEBEN LANG, betrayed by the values I hold most dear. At least I'm not the ONLY ONE! ;-)

BE OPEN!!! TREAT OTHERS AS YOU WISH TO BE TREATED!!! WORK HARD! BE THE BEST! BUILD A BETTER MOUSETRAP! TAKE A RISK!!! FORGET THE PAST! LEARN SOMETHING NEW!!! HONOR YOUR ELDERS! SHUT UP AND ASK QUESTIONS! LISTEN!
LOVE ONE ANOTHER...

Having done that, I find myself in a quagmire, micro and macro. My personal life reflects the assymetry I observe in the "impersonal big picture." Zur Zeit bin ich ehrlich MÜDE. Keine Lust mit Dummkopfen weiter zu reden. (Does that get an ö in the plural? Dirk39'll notice I studiously avoided the article. AAARRRRRGH! :shrug:)

Were I to consult the corporate medics about my malaise, I would surely leave the office with a FUCKITOL tm happy pill. NO, I am NOT happy about the course we have collectively taken. WHAT to DO???

[shance]

51. Very enlightening if not 'depressing' post*

I have thought a lot about the dismissal and increasing disregard of important ingredients to a healthy civilization like creativity, free expression and authenticity. You put it so well.

I was reading through the threads and a few things came to mind. One thought that stood out is how those writing 'history', often deny what is actually "healthy", very legitimate depression, as being chemical imbalances, addictions or other 'illnesses' to imply those who don't conform are somehow suboordinate to those who have historically been in power, or conformed to a narrowly constricted culture.

I remember reading in history books about the Native Americans being predisposed to 'alcoholism' - a 'theory' at best that is still spread as being a fact today. Im sure its still in some of the history books. Correct me if Im wrong, but it would certainly pose a good argument that if my land, my culture, my family, my history, my pride, my dignity and my way of life had been stolen from me and virtually for the most part erased and certainly invalidated, chances are I'd tip the bottle a bit myself.

My father influenced my beliefs about the subject in particular, however little I realized it at the time, in addition to my learning overall. He was also an Anglo male, a doctor and someone who for all intents and purposes, was far removed from the Native American culture and world. I never knew why he was as interested in the subject as he was. However, he was a painter and artist too. Maybe creative people tend to have more empathy? Or is it because its difficult to be an artist, creative, and/or a more alternative thinker in this culture, and as a result promotes a more empathetic person? Who knows.

Overall, the 'firewater' theory, could be viewed as another method used as a convenient excuse to place blame of the pain and suffering and "depression" on the victims themselves, the Native Americans, and less on the circumstances surrounding their tremendous losses throughout the past three to four centuries.

Just something that came to mind.