My apologies, but I'm not seeing this sexual double-standard at play

[DerekG]

While it should be quite apparent that militarism and economic exploitation are on the rise in this little empire of ours, I don't foresee the triumph of "cultural conservatism." Consumerism--with its proclivity for commodifying sex, and celebrating violence--has us by the jugular. The Puritans ain't gonna win...which leads me to a subject which occasionally surfaces around here: the sexual double-standard.

Granted, I'm a 22 year-old college student, and obviously missed that perverse, paradoxical idolization/subjugation construct that was still foisted upon American women throughout the 50's and 60's, but I see little evidence of the oft-mentioned prejudice lingering in the cultural consciousness (i.e. sexual experimentation is fine and dandy for males, yet abominable for females).

From what I've seen on campus, young women aren't any more inhibited about knockin' boots than the men are--and this image of the sexually aggressive woman sells in the entertainment industry ("Sex and the City," anyone?).

In case you haven't noticed, it is the chaste who are the rebels now. *They* are the counterculture.

That American women suffer under such a barrage of prejudices is ignominious, but please explain to me how the sexual double-standard still constitutes as one?

[KitchenWitch]

1. There is still the implication that a sexually liberated woman is a slut

That has not gone away, just listen to rap music.

[OneBlueSky]

5. well . . . if a sexually liberated woman is a slut . . .

what are we gay men? . . . more specifically, those amongst us who consider themselves sexually liberated? . . .

(fwiw -- I ain't one of 'em) . . .

on edit: let's make it even more interesting . . . gay couples raising kids who also consider themselves sexually liberated . . .

just how low on the cultural totem pole can one actually go? . . .

[ultraist]

59. It's so low that many gay couples are losing their kids

Did you hear about the new law in VA?

Note: Low as in low on society's totem pole, not mine.

[Just Me]

56. No. This has to do with SEX rather than EQUALITY!!!

And, quite frankly, it pisses me off that anyone makes SEX the subject and women the object.

How fucking manipulative can you get!!!!

Damn!!!!

[magellan]

2. Examples of the double-standard that persists

Imagine you're in a bar. Not far away sits a woman. She's attractive, dressed in a flattering way, and she's flirting in an overtly sexual manner with several men who are gathered around her. You can tell she's never met these men before. She leaves the bar with one man on each arm.

What are your impressions of the woman? The men? How might your impression change if the situation were reversed and it was a handsome man being paid all the attention by women?

Now take it a step further. The next day you see a picture of the same woman in the newspaper. She's allegedly been raped. What's your impression of her now?

[DerekG]

4. You may be asking the wrong person

I never had much of a libido; ergo, the whole flirtation process is a bit alien to me.

Yet, to answer your second query, I would deem the raped woman a *victim* who was ignorant to the fact that there are a disturbing number of predators lurking about. Needless to say, the fault lies with the brutal thug who assaulted her; accordingly, it is also important to recognize the folly in isolating yourself with a complete stranger--I certainly wouldn't pick up a hitch-hiker without someone else riding shotgun.

On edit: I'm sorry if my message sounds insensitive. It is my opinion that a whole lot of people are no-damn-good; my mindset is far removed from those who are more trusting of others.

[Misunderestimator]

26. Yes, your message sounds insensitive...

you still blame the victim though you protest you don't, by saying that she took a risk. Let's deal with why women have to worry about doing the same damn thing a man would do alone. Let's find a way in our society to deal with the cause of these problems, instead of the symptoms. Eventually, women will not be safe anywhere alone if we give in to blaming them for putting themselves at risk to be raped.

[retnavyliberal]

48. When you leave town for the weekend...

Do you close your front door? Lock it? Do you lock your car when it is left on the street? Leave the keys in the ignition. Do you leave your young children alone in a park? Saying someone took unnecessary risks is not blaming them, it is stating a fact.

[Misunderestimator]

53. Making the assumption that a woman has taken an unnecessary risk

is mistake number one... number two is you didn't answer my point that we need to address WHY it is a risk for a woman to do something any man could do.

To equate whether or not I should be able to walk down the block to my own home alone with whether or not I should close my front door is trivializing the issue. In many arabic countries, women MUST cover their faces or they would be considered to be taking an unnecessary risk. It's an extreme example, but it is an example of a society in which women are unfairly expected to live by different rules than men.

[retnavyliberal]

57. mistake eh? interesting wording

A woman going off with unknown men is taking an unnecessary risk because woman are more likely to be raped then men. Why? Well, because vary rare is the case of a woman raping a man as is the cases of a man raping a man. In fact, outside of prison, I can not remember one. Should things be this way? No, of course not. Children should be able to play unattended and my house should be able to be lock free. This is not trivializing the issue, it is equating crime risks to crime risks. Wishing that there was no crime or criminals in the world does not make it so. Having people in the world that are criminals does not mean that women are being unfairly expected to live by a different standard.

[Misunderestimator]

69. I am shocked at the way people are twisting this problem of blaming rape

victims for their rape. My god.

[knitter4democracy]

72. You obviously don't understand the fear we women live with.

Men can travel by themselves still, and no one gives it a second thought. Women travel in packs and still get threatened (happened to me in Russia--five of us and we were almost abducted and would've been if one of the group hadn't known a back way to the bridge and told us about it while we all hid in the bushes by the river waiting for the men to leave).

Men can easily shop alone in the mall and go wherever they want. We don't just go to the bathroom in packs to talk--sometimes we need a group because the bathrooms are in darker, less monitored areas.

Remember the Wal-Mart worker who was abducted in the parking lot and murdered? How many men check under their cars at night before they get in, make sure to park under a street light and as close to the entrance as possible, put their keys in their hands as weapons and make sure to have the Mace ready and unlocked?

Come on--you just don't get it!

[somnior]

54. Perception

DerekG's post may seem insensitive without insensitivity intended or indeed present whatsoever.

Risk spans a continuum - from very little to very much. In my opinion, possibly in DerekG's opinion, leaving a bar with two people one doesn't know is stupid - too great a risk, and exponentially more so the more intoxicated each person is.

That doesn't excuse the actions of those who harm others, or make the woman (or man, in a different scenario!) any less of a victim - it's an accurate depiction of reality that many people never stop to think about, that making stupid decisions can lead to painful, even tragic, consequences.

If it eases concerns of insensitivity, I'll share this... I know too many rape victims, and not a single one took any more risk than anyone else takes in socializing with other people - as close to zero risk as possible. I could, and would, feel for the woman in the example (and she's still the vicimt!), but there are distinctions.

There still exists a double-standard though, yes, in multiple senses.

Most people would have a hard time believing that a man could be raped by a woman (or multiple women), but it does happen. It'd be very difficult to find many people who could identify with the man as a victim. Traditional views of "manliness" don't allow for that.

At the same time, female rape is far more common. There are males who view women as objects, even property. Failing that, some people view sex as a right to be demanded of others, even against their will. Such views are deeply rooted and need to change.

[wickerwoman]

3. Many, many examples.

A woman who never gets married and never intends to is still looked upon as a freak in our society (she must be too fat or ugly to get a man), but a man who never plans to get married is either looked up to as a playboy stud or given a pass for being ambitious or having other priorities.

You should see some of looks of horror I get when I say I never want to have kids, but it's completely understandable when a man says he doesn't. A woman who doesn't conform to the mother role is seen as some kind of unfeeling sub-human freak but a man who bails on his kids is just another player. An asshole, but not an unnatural asshole.

Many companies still ask women if they plan to have kids or not. And many women are offered lower salaries because it is simply assumed that they will go on the "mommy track" and stop giving a shit about their jobs as soon as they have kids. When was the last time a man had to reassure potential employers that he won't quit as soon as he has children?

Why are abortion and child care "women's issues"? Last time I checked, men had children too. And if you really think that there's no stigma attached to women's sexuality, go stand outside Planned Parenthood for a few hours. A woman who accidently gets pregnant is still called a whore to her face while the man gets off scot free.

I had a roommate in college who was raped. The people at the hospital told her don't even bother trying to prosecute it. She went home with a guy she met at a bar at 3 am. She was almost paralytically drunk and woke up in a park the next morning with blood all over her thighs. There's still a very prevalant "she was asking for it / she got what she deserved" meme in our society. Go back and read some of the Kobe Bryant threads if you don't believe it.

[ChairOne]

6. Though I'm with you in spirit, some of that isn't really right....

(a) I fully expect a pregnant man would be treated pretty much the same as a pregnant woman at Planned Parenthood. It is nonetheless of course completely true that if men could get pregnant, there would be no debate re: abortion laws...

(b) Here are three (1/2way decent) reasons why abortion is well-considered a "women's issue". (1) Women insist on it - start a thread about who should a say in an abortion decision and find out. (2) A primary reason for the existence of anti-abortion laws was to subjugate women. One may as well say that Jim Crow laws weren't "black issues". (3) Um, women are the only ones who have abortions.

(c) I'm 75% with you on the why-is-child-care-a-"women's issue" though. Ditto for the company/employment.

(d) I think it's close to bizarre that anyone not want to have kids. It's like someone saying they never want to eat, to me. But I can appreciate that most others feel differently, and in a tilted way.

(e) Tell the truth: Is this country really *teeming* with hot, intelligent, personable women who have no desire to get married?

(f) Tell the truth: do you really believe that there's *absolutely NOTHING* about the mother-child relationship that's different from the father-child relationship? Absolutely nothing? Really? If you do believe that, then we humans are apparently far more different from our mammalian/primate cousins than is commonly thought.

But if nothing else, I would agree with someone who thought that (1) such difference are real, and (2) society makes far too much of them.

(g) You left out the career woman as bitch, vs career man as leader. I especially love that one cuz of the irony. But like you said, there are just soooo many - can't possibly get em all....

[wickerwoman]

8. A little more explanation...

(a) I fully expect a pregnant man would be treated pretty much the same as a pregnant woman at Planned Parenthood. It is nonetheless of course completely true that if men could get pregnant, there would be no debate re: abortion laws...

I wasn't saying that pregnant men would get different treatment. I was referring more to the horde of screaming fundies lined up outside to tell the women they are whores and going to hell. Funny, they don't really scream at the guys ...

(b) Here are three (1/2way decent) reasons why abortion is well-considered a "women's issue". (1) Women insist on it - start a thread about who should a say in an abortion decision and find out. (2) A primary reason for the existence of anti-abortion laws was to subjugate women. One may as well say that Jim Crow laws weren't "black issues". (3) Um, women are the only ones who have abortions.

Abortion isn't just a women's issue because men deal with unwanted pregnancy too. I agree that the primary reason for anti-abortion laws is to control women's bodies but that's not really relevant to the point I was making- that men should care about keeping abortion legal because pregnancy is half their responsibility. But in our society we tend to say abortion is completely the woman's responsibility as if she got pregnant on her own.

(c) I'm 75% with you on the why-is-child-care-a-"women's issue" though. Ditto for the company/employment.

Can't really respond to this unless you explain the 25%.

(d) I think it's close to bizarre that anyone not want to have kids. It's like someone saying they never want to eat, to me. But I can appreciate that most others feel differently, and in a tilted way.

I need to eat to survive. I don't need to spend nine months of physical discomfort and 18 years of cleaning up puke, shit, snot and god knows what else to survive. The world is over populated anyway. But again, the point is that a woman who says she doesn't want kids is seen very differently from a man who doesn't want kids. The woman is seen as somehow damaged while it's perfectly understandable for a man to choose to be childless.

(e) Tell the truth: Is this country really *teeming* with hot, intelligent, personable women who have no desire to get married?

Missing the point again. If a woman doesn't get married, we assume it's because she wanted to but couldn't (because she's fat, ugly or unpleasant or something else is wrong with her). If a man doesn't get married, there could be dozens of reasons (like he just didn't want to.) We don't assume that an unmarried man is unmarried because he couldn't find anyone who would take him. There _are_ women who just don't want to get married. I'm one of them. My desirability as a partner is irrelevant.

(f) Tell the truth: do you really believe that there's *absolutely NOTHING* about the mother-child relationship that's different from the father-child relationship? Absolutely nothing? Really? If you do believe that, then we humans are apparently far more different from our mammalian/primate cousins than is commonly thought.
But if nothing else, I would agree with someone who thought that (1) such difference are real, and (2) society makes far too much of them.

Did I say this? I really have no idea what this is in reference to. There are differences in the mother-child and father-child relationship. Where did I imply differently and what does it have to do with the double-standard we've been discussing?

(g) You left out the career woman as bitch, vs career man as leader. I especially love that one cuz of the irony. But like you said, there are just soooo many - can't possibly get em all....

Wasn't trying to be comprehensive. This one gets me too. Also men are "stoic" when they stop speaking to you cuz you pissed them off but women are "passive aggressive". But this thread was about specifically sexual double-standards, so I figured I'd save it for a different thread.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. in re: not wanting children

There are many reasons why a woman might not want to have children. One may be the overpopulation issue. Another might be the responsibility involved-or do you think that women should have babies who cannot or do not have the ability to provide for them? And what about the children who are abused by parents who had kids for the wrong reasons, namely because 'society' demanded it and they didn't want to be looked on as strange?

[Eloriel]

43. And some of us are just not the motherly type

I'm certainly not. I did have a child -- but had it been left entirely to me (instead of a failure of birth control), I don't think I'd ever have gotten around to the point of saying, "Gee, I think I'd like to have a child now."

Oh, I'm glad I did, and I love him and always did, and I was a fairly good tho definitely not great mother for the most part, but it was a struggle and I had to work at it, sometimes harder than other times.

So I'm VERY clear on the fact that no one who doesn't WANT children should have them, and people shouldn't do it just as a lark. It's a lifetime responsibility, not just 9 months, and no it doesn't end at 18 or 21. But during those first 18 or 21 years, your life is NOT necessarily your own. That's the price you pay, and anyone contemplating parenthood must be willing to pay that price: your children have to come first in many circumstances.

[Nobody]

14. I can't let this go without comment

"(d) I think it's close to bizarre that anyone not want to have kids. It's like someone saying they never want to eat, to me. But I can appreciate that most others feel differently, and in a tilted way."

This is exactly the attitude I encounter frequently as a woman who not only doesn't have kids, or want them, but isn't that crazy about the little rugrats until they're about 5 or 6. Bring a baby into any room and most of the women will turn all gushy. The one who doesn't is vilified by the rest.

Not all women want kids. Not all women (are you ready for the ultimate in deviant behavior?) even like kids. This isn't that uncommon.

The maternal instinct and the biological time clock has completely passed me by. I'm in my late 30s and have never felt even the slightest twinge of wanting kids.

I don't consider myself to be selfish (I'm not contributing to overpopulation)

I don't consider myself to be unwomanly (I'm a woman, everything I do is womanly)

I don't consider myself to be a despicable monster (I contribute to society in other ways)

I am not a bizarre, tilted deviant (I'm just one out of 6 billion individuals who have different interests)

Not to dump completely on you, you're statement about people who don't want kids was one of the most civilized I've encountered lately. One person even asked me if I was really a woman. I offered to dump my garbage can with used sanitary napkins all over this guys front lawn.

[libnnc]

35. way cool post...

thank you, thank you, thank you....

from a lesbian who does not want kids. Babies are cute (I love my niece) but once they get to talking....fuggetaboutit...the cuteness wears off pretty quickly.

[blondeatlast]

16. "Tell the truth"--if she disagrees with you, does that make it not truth?

Very bizarre way to raise the question, IMHO.

Regarding the lack of desire to have kids: I'm a very happy mom. I have married friends who have no desire whatsoever to have children. They adore my son, but are very happy childless. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

There is nothing unnatural about not wanting children, IMHO. What would be unnatural is feeling compelled to have them to meet a cultural norm one doesn't ascribe to. Unhealthy for the parents, unhealthy for the unwanted kid.

As I say, I'm a happy mom. But parenthood is expensive, messy, an incredible investment in time and responsibility, and inconvenient. I can easily see why some have other ideas for their lives. I'm NOT one of those moms who has never wished that I wasn't, but in the end, I know I made the right choice for ME.

I don't choose to own a dog or cat, etiehr--you'd be surprised how many people think I'm odd for that!

Let up on the childless, people. Contentment is hard enough to find--as long as your path to it doesn't hurt others, enjoy the journey, and don't let others try to lead you off of it.

[blondeatlast]

17. Regarding point E: I'm considered very attractive by most .

Moreso than average, at any rate. I play on it, too; I dress well, wear makeup, am fussy about my hair (obviously; note my SN).

I really didn't care to get married UNTIL I MET MY HUSBAND. I wanted to marry HIM, not get married. I know many, many, many women just like that.

Most of my friends never cared to get married until they found someone very special. Some still don't care to get married; one of them could be a character on "Sex in the City." She's very happy and VERY attractive. And yes, she plays the field and thoroughly enjoys it.

How many attractive, successful men don't care to be married? Do you consider that an anomaly?

[NewJeffCT]

20. Good post

I agree with you that there are plenty of attractive, intelligent women who don't plan to get married. My wife was the same way thoughout her 20s. She even said that she looked down on women that gave up their careers to become housewives & mothers. I don't know if I caught her right when her biological clock started ticking or if I was just incredibly charming to her, but she changed when she met me and we got married. She's still a career woman, though.

I know several other women like my wife as well.

[hfojvt]

39. depends on a POV

what is a "successful" man? Our "society" such as it is, may agree on one definition - a rich, powerful, famous person. Or we may just go with happy.
I happen to think that our society is screwed up, or insane, if you will. I reject the dominant paradigm and the conventional wisdom.
In turn, I am rejected by society and floating in a sea of anomie, but I am not sure which came first - my rejection of society or society's rejection of me.
I am not that impressed by your beautiful friend, but who's to say that I would not do the same if life had dealt me that hand? The hand I was dealt helped to make me who I am. I learned sympathy for the down-trodden by having my face pushed in the mud. I do not think selfishness, or being totally self-centered, is an anomaly, but nor do I think it is admirable.

[rene moon]

46. You think it's bizarre????

Many people out there dont want any children. But dont lump us a bizarre, weird ot child-haters, please. That is just plain rude.

I'm a hot women who is married but I really dont want kids--I feel that I would be throwing my life as I know it away for something that doesnt interest me. I have NEVER wanted to be someone's mother.

But I dont hate kids nor do I think people who DO have kids are "bizarre".

Thanks

[American Tragedy]

68. Why do you find it bizarre that some people don't want children?

I've just never felt the desire to be a mother, any more than I've felt the desire to become a construction worker or an accountant, nor do I have the confidence that I would adequately fulfill that role.

I love my freedom, and I've tailored my academic, professional, and personal life around that. I love being able to stay out all night, go on a road trip with some friends, or even spontaneously fly out to Amsterdam or San Francisco or somewhere else with somebody who has an extra ticket, as I've done before.

I'm certainly glad that there are those who want to devote their lives to raising children, and I'm eternally grateful for the dedication invested by my own mother. But from what I've observed, it is an expensive, time-consuming, heart-wrenching and highly challenging endeavor, and it shouldn't surprise you that some people won't do it.

[izzie]

7. Maybe you are not in the right place.

Look into the backers of the GOP and what is going on in that voting group.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. the sexual double standard goes beyond sex

It is still extremely difficult for a woman to get into a traidition "man's job". For example, when our pest company was hiring a new tech, a woman applied, and my boss said, "She won't work. She'd be afraid of the bugs and of getting dirty." I made a comment about giving her a chance, but the next day a man with experience in the industry came in and was hired, so the point was moot (experience trumps no experience, and is a non-sexist measure).

More than once I've gone into a bank to check on loans only to be told, "Honey, you bring back your husband so he can explain it to you." Said husband came back and told the loan officer, "My wife has a post-graduate degree. I have some college. My wife earns more money than I do, and has successfully managed money all her adult life. You made a BIG mistake talking to her like that, and we're taking all our money out of this bank NOW."

I work with men, and one of them will not listen or pay attention to anything I say, even if the order comes from the boss, and it is simply because, as a woman, my words don't count. I'm there to help him, and that's all in his eyes. The other techs say that was how he was raised-in his family, the women are servants to the men, and the men don't have to listen to them at all. He's our newest employee, and he hasn't caught on to the fact that his supervisor knows about this and is counting it against him.

So you can see that there is a double standard for women not just in the bedroom but in the office as well.

[NewJeffCT]

22. I know what you mean

My wife has 2 master's degrees and 2 undergraduate degrees (she got an associate's after getting her BA) and speaks 3 languages. She's been in supervisory roles since getting her 2nd undergraduate degree - almost 8 years ago. Right now, I make slightly more than her, but that is only because she's been in this country for less than 6 years. If we both stay with our current companies, I suspect she'll be making more than me within a year.

I have less education than my wife.

However, I was recently contacted about a good job that would require us to relocate. My wife is interested in the move, as she doesn't like the cold of Connecticut and would prefer some place warmer, and she is confident she can find a job anywhere. I told the headhunter that contacted me that if we moved, my wife would need a job as well, and that she made about the same as me.

I figured the guy would be happy at the possibility of a 2nd commission, but he told me, "Has your wife considered staying at home and being a housewife?" Umm, no.

[ultraist]

60. Exactly!

"Has your wife considered staying at home and being a housewife?" Umm, no.

The traditional roles are still thrust on women:

IF women don't have children, they are weird/deviant.
IF women don't marry they are "off."
Women are the weaker and less intelligent sex.
Women SHOULD be the primary caretakers of children

Facts:
*Equal pay for equal work does not exist
*Violence against women, both domestic and random is a major social problem
*Sexual harrassment in the workplace IS a big issue

BTW, 50's and 60's? The Feminist movement came AFTER the Civil Rights movement.

[ott]

10. Speaking on promiscuity alone

I'm in agreement, and I guess conservative.

What I wouldn't give to find a compatible woman who actually valued sex above a handshake, (so to speak).

There are other levels of disenfranchisement perpetuated by those who insist on set gender roles, male and female.

[dandrhesse]

12. It may not be true for you, where you are and they opinions you

hear etc. BUT at this point at least, young adults like yourself are not in the positions that drive the economy and or power bases of the world. They are still predominantly white, men in this country and that in and of itself speaks volumes.

A couple examples in recent times.

Ken Lay from Enron - look what he did and where he is now versus
Martha Stewart? come on you don't think that bush and all of his buddies are not guilty as sin of insider trading - of course they are but they crucified martha and held her up as an example.

Then you have Abu Graib - they are trying to pin the whole deal on the woman in charge of the prison there, please...as if she had any authority.

These are just two examples, there are so many more. It is still a man's world, just look to the Senate and the House of
Reps, yes we have made strides but it is nowhere near representative of our population in general, either by gender or ethnicity.

[blondeatlast]

18. Perfect examples of the double standard. Perfect.

Regarding Martha Stewart: look at all the sport that surrounded her incarceration.

If Ken Lay had had to do some time, I'm willing to bet we would have heard very little after the sentencing.

[Blue Wally]

28. Different types

If Martha Stewart had been just another CEO type, we wouldn't have had the circus. She was an icon of "stylish" living. Other than his position and his crimes, Ken lay is just a face in the crowd. If Carly Fiorina went to jail, they wouldn't make the fuss about her they make about Martha.

[ultraist]

61. The Glass Ceiling

Women account for less than 5% of TOP Executive Positions!

http://www.theglassceiling.com/wib2/ww_17wom.htm
Middle-to-Upper Management Level Positions

The Glass Ceiling Commission was established in 1991 to study and make recommendations about the barriers that prevent women and minorities from rising to the upper rungs of the corporate ladder. According to their fact finding report, the U.S. labor force is gender and race segregated--white men fill most top management positions in corporations.

Although women are 43 percent of the executive, administrative and managerial occupations, they account for less than 3 percent to 5 percent of top executive positions. Surveys of Fortune 1500 companies conducted by Korn/Ferry International and Catalyst over the last decade, found that 95 to 97 percent of senior managers-- vice presidents and above--were men. A 1989 survey found that 97 percent of top male executives were white. A 1992 survey of Fortune 1500 companies found that 95 percent of the 3 percent to 5 percent of top managers who were women were white non-Hispanic women.

Corporate Board Positions

Another study of public Fortune 500 industrial and Fortune 500 service companies found that women and minorities (men and women) held 9 percent of the 9,707 total boards seats in 1992. Minorities held 3.5 percent of the board seats.3 About two-thirds (65 percent) of service companies and half (54 percent) of industrial companies had at least one woman and/or minority director.

[Solon]

13. Your explaining the schism between Reality and Entertainment....

In shows like "Sex and the City", guys are, in general, excited by agressive women, but at the same time don't really want to be in a relationship with one long term, one night stands maybe, but not beyond that. I don't know about you, but many guys I know would blow their stack if they found out their girlfriends had sex with more than 10 partners or so in a lifetime before them. Yet the opposite, a guy having had sex with ten different girls, is almost expected (talk about pressure :)). Hell I knew guys who broke up with women over this very issue. I find it stupid, and I never really asked, because its not my business, it would only be my business for STD risks and the such, but the same is true for her to ask me. The double standard is real, even if somewhat lessened nowadays, it still exists. Regardless of what is shown on TV, it doesn't reflect reality in a meaningful way.

To give another example, how many guys have you met that talk about the "easy" women to score with? Why aren't their "easy" guys who are the same, yet don't have the shame associated to it that women do?

[xchrom]

15. the religous right has forced the conversation backwards.

almost the whole of sexuality and how it will be viewed in the future depends on how women will come to view and think and feel about their bodies.

men in western culture do not feel the same way about their bodies that women do -- and until women feel that their bodies are inherently and 100% their own we will continue to have backwards conversations about sex, sexuality, gay and lesbian relationships.

i mean, c'mon, we're still talking about promiscuous and ''sex in the city'' in the same sentence.

feminism remains a radical idea.

[blondeatlast]

19. "feminism remains a radical idea." Yes, indeed it does.

When I grew up, in the '70s, my female idols were athletes, politicians, movers and shakers. Gloria Steinem, Billie Jean King, Shirley Chisholm, etc. were the people I looked up to. Surprisingly, even my more conservative friends did too. They were presented as role models and gained cultural acceptance.

Who do young girls idolize now? Who has cultural acceptance in 2005? The Olsen twins, Paris Hilton, Britney Spears--note that these women don't really DO anything or haven't made tremendous strides in their fields.

I'm a straight, married, girly-girl type, btw, but the women I admire are still of that strong, adventurous type.

We're backsliding fast--and we are actively being pushed down.

That progressives are even having a conversation about this now is a sorry indicator of how far we have yet to go.

[Telly Savalas]

71. You're cherry-picking female idols to claim we're backsliding.

I'm not saying that we've made great leaps and bounds on the gender equality front, but saying Paris Hilton has replaced Gloria Steinem as a female role model is a pretty big distortion. We have Paris Hilton now, but back in the '70's there was Farah Fawcett.

They had Billy Jean King back in the '70's. Now we have the Williams sisters. What about the WNBA? Granted I was just a kid, but I don't remember there being a commericially viable professional women's basketball league back in the 70's. Did the women's national soccer team make the late night talk show rounds in the 70's like Mia Hamm & Co.?

Who were the powerful female Senators in the 70's like Sen. Clinton and Sen. Boxer today? I don't recall either Nixon or Carter having a female Secretary of State.

At a more personal level, my daughter can look up to my wife who has a masters in chemical engineering and works in pharmaceutical development. Women like my wife are much more common now than in the 70's.

We certainly have a long ways to go, but it's pretty easy to make the case that girls growing up today have a much wider range of powerful female role models to choose from than 30 years ago.

[Pithlet]

77. Very true.

I agree with everything you just said. I do worry, however, that some girls growing up today will take all that for granted, and not realize the fight it took to get where we are today, and that there is still some fighting to do. I hear a lot of "I'm not a feminist" from young women today, as if feminist were an insult. It really worries me.

[thinkingwoman]

21. maybe that's because

campus is not the real world.

I'm not trying to be fippant. Seriously, the world cannot be judged by what is happening on campus.

As a 39 year old mother of a teenage daughter I can assure you that my greatest disappointment as a parent is the realization that the world my daughter is about to go out into on her own is no less sexist and discriminatory than the one I grew up in.

We've made, exactly, no progress.

The flaw in your argument, btw, is that you equate the frequency that females have sex with the reaction they face in the greater society. Those are apples and oranges.

Women can have as much sex as they want, but they will pay for it down the line.

[Hugin]

23. Dang... I missed out on the free-love the first time...

... looks like I'm going to miss out again.

There is still a double-standard for sexual activity in
general.

Although I've never bought into the studly-dudley and
slutty-sally stereotypes there are many who do.

[Tsiyu]

24. You are correct for your age/social group

Your generation was raised by a lot of single moms, feminists, etc.
It's natural you would have fewer blatant examples of this in your age group.
Believe me, men and women in my age group are much more likely to view the genders as 'vastly different from each other." They called women a "differnet species" so often, i stopped even trying to explain myself...

But you're mixing the question up. You say you are talking about double standards: these are people's PERCEPTIONS ABOUT OTHERS.

Your quote to "prove" this was:

"Women aren't any more inhibited about knockin' boots than the men are..."

This, my young friend, goes to the WOMEN'S PERCEPTION OF THEMSELVES. How does THEIR liberation relate to society's perception?

In other words, the double-standard can be used against a woman ( or man) in spite of the choices she makes about herself.

She may be quite at peace about her sexuality. But if she is viewed as a slut by others, will this affect her career, choice of partner, grades, social situation?


How do the guys on your campus talk about the women?

[Misunderestimator]

25. I suppose that once you're out of your insulated college world, you will

see it... because as a woman, the "oft-mentioned prejudice" still lingers... in fact it hits you in the face every single effing day. Women on campus where you are may be sexually free, but the judgement still exists towards them from others.

For using such big words in your post, it surprises me that you haven't seen such an obvious "phenomenon" of denegrating women in our contemporary society.

(On edit... where'd you go DerekG?)

[noiretextatique]

37. LOL...reminds me of the "i'm white, and i don't see any racism" thing

:eyes: perhaps he's studying :shrug: as a black woman, i can't say that i know what it's like to be a white male...can't imagine what any white male's experience is. curiously enough though, some white males and females claim to more about my experience than i do when it comes to what i perceive as racism. if i were to say that the way i wa treated on a recent job had everything to do with who i am, as a person, and little to do with anything else, several people would tell me my expereince had everything to do with anything else, and not what i perceived it to be. i would be called sensitive, or i would be told i was crying racism...i would be admonished for "blaming the white man," and lectured about improving myself by learning standard english, or i'd be told that is was just that one individual, not a company and a culture that supports that one individual.
i think our friend shold talk to some of his female contemporaries...i am not sure if their perceptions would be the same as his.

[MadHound]

27. Well, first off, get away from your campus to do your observations

And start looking in the real world. Like the fact that women still are making 23 cents less on the dollar than a male does, for equivalent jobs. Then take a look at the glass ceiling that women are still running into. Women compromis 46.5% of the work force, yet only 12% are in uppper management. Look at the members of the Senate and Congress. While women make up fifty one percent of the population, you will only find fourteen % of the Congress to be female. This is only a fraction of the bread and butter discrimination that women face in our society.

[Blue Wally]

29. "equivalent jobs"

That often is not true. You don't compare a woamn in the typing pool to a man who is a plumber just because the education requirments are the same (HS diploma). You have to compare the woman in the typing pool with the guy in the mail room who pushes the mail cart through the office making deliveries. My college ecomomics prof made the case as to why a plumber should make more money than he made as a lower level instructor (MA working on a PhD).

You have to look at wages within very narrow job classifications to compare male/female wage differences. Then you have to determine what job choices led to getting into that job classification.

[MadHound]

30. Where did I say that I was comparing secretaries with plumbers?

That would be damn foolish now, wouldn't it? When I say equivalent, I mean equivalent! Lawyers to lawyers, secretaries to secretaries, not apples to oranges. Here friend, have a look for yourself<http://www.pay-equity.org/PDFs/ProfWomen.pdf>

Just a few salient comparisons:

The Wage Gap Persists
< In 2002, women earned 77% as much as men. For women of color, the gap was wider.
African American women earned 67%, and Latina women 55%, of men’s weekly earnings.
While Asian Pacific American women do better, they still earn only 83.5% as much as
men.16
< The gap between the wages of men and women is larger in the U.S. than in Germany,
Britain, France, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and New Zealand.17
< America’s working families lose $200 billion of income annually to the wage gap—an
average loss of more than $4,000 each for a working women’s families every year because of
unequal pay.18
< Equal pay is a problem in every occupational category:
– In 2003, professional and technical women earned almost 27% less than their male
counterparts;19
– Women in office and administrative support occupations earned over 12% less than
those who were men;20
– Women in sales occupations earned 38% less than similarly employed men, while
women in service occupations earned almost 16% less than men in these occupations.21
< More specifically, in 2003:
– female physicians and surgeons earned a whopping 41% less than their male
counterparts;22
– female college and university teachers earned 21% less than those who were male;23
– female lawyers earned 13% less than male lawyers;24 and
– female computer scientists and systems analysts earned 19% less than similarly
employed men, as did female computer programmers.25
< The wage gap exists even in occupations where women considerably outnumber men. In
2003:
– female elementary and middle school teachers earned more than 10% less than
similarly employed men, while female secondary school teachers earned 9% less than
male;26
– female registered nurses earned 12% less than their male colleagues;27 and
– female word processors and typists earned 8% less than male.28
< For full-time workers aged 25 and older in 2001:
– the median income of a female high school graduate was more than 27% less than that
of her male counterpart;29
– the median income of a women with a bachelor’s degree was 25% (or $13,290) less
than that of a similarly qualified man;30
– a women with a master’s degree earned 28% (or $18,658) less than a man with a
master’s degree;31
– the median annual income of a women with a professional degree was 40% (or
$39,907) less than that of her male counterpart;32 and
– a women with a doctoral degree earned more than 25% (or $20,652) less than a
similarly qualified man.33

Now do you get the picture? This is the real world friend, not a college classroom with a biased professor feeding out BS to indoctrinate his own worldview into pliable young students. College education is a great thing friend, I've got one myself. But you need to realize that there is a lot of biased BS throughout the entire education system, and that you need to do some outside research in order to get the whole picture.

[Yupster]

31. The public school teacher example

is an interesting one.

In every district in America the average male ninth grade teacher with a master's makes more than the average female ninth grade teacher with a master's.

Since they're paid according to a publc pay schedule that everyone can see and takes no regard to sex, how can this be?

There must be more to it than discrimination if you eliminate discrimination and the man still makes significantly more.

[Blue Wally]

33. Picking out some gems

Where did I say that I was comparing secretaries with plumbers?

In the original "equitable pay setting" effort at the municipal level, they said that plumbers and secretaries should recive comparable pay because they had comparable qualifications.

In 2002, women earned 77% as much as men. For women of color, the gap was wider. African American women earned 67%, and Latina women 55%, of men’s weekly earnings. While Asian Pacific American women do better, they still earn only 83.5% as much as men.

Not intellectually honest, comparing all women to all men then various ethnic categories opf women to all men. A better comparison would have been to look at the male-female splits for all, white, black, Hispnaic, and Asian.

America’s working families lose $200 billion of income annually to the wage gap—an average loss of more than $4,000 each for a working women’s families every year because of
unequal pay.

Assuming that pay would be added to women and not deducted from the men in the families to even things up.

Women in sales occupations earned 38% less than similarly employed men

Broken out by different types of sales? Are retail clerks, used car salesmen, and corporate travelling salesmen all lumped into one classification?

female physicians and surgeons earned a whopping 41% less than their male counterparts

Since most doctors are sole proprietors or in partnerships and set their own rates of compensation, this can only be explained by the concentration of females into the lower paid specialties such as pediatrics, family practice, and dermatology with a lack of significant numbers of women in higher paid specialties such as thoracic surgery.

female college and university teachers earned 21% less than those who were male

Engineering faculty are paid at much higher rates than liberal arts faculty. What percetage of engineering students are female??

female lawyers earned 13% less than male lawyers

Have to look into this. My granddaughter is finishing up law school in June.

female elementary and middle school teachers earned more than 10% less than similarly employed men, while female secondary school teachers earned 9% less than male

As another poster noted, these are very bureaucratic and fixed pay tables (like in the Army) with pay set by years of service and advanced degrees. If that is the case, what are the relatrive years of service for male amnd female teachers??

Now do you get the picture? This is the real world friend, not a college classroom with a biased professor feeding out BS to indoctrinate his own worldview into pliable young students. College education is a great thing friend, I've got one myself. But you need to realize that there is a lot of biased BS throughout the entire education system, and that you need to do some outside research in order to get the whole picture.

Well, I finished college in 1961 and pretty much dealt with the real world after that.

[MadHound]

36. Friend, you're picking nits, and setting up strawmen.

If you wish to delude yourself, and think that pay equality is a moot point, fine, but the rest of us are dealing with reality. If you've got questions about the study above, go look up the sources, there are footnotes with the information you need.

Anyway, here is some more information for you to check out.

<http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/women/equalpay/FactSheetTimeForEqualPay.cfm>
<http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0602-01.htm>
<http://www.cluw.org/NCPE/info-polls.html>

I could go on for pages here with sources, the issue of gender pay inequity has been well documented. But if you wish to blind yourself to the reality of the matter, I suppose I could bring out reams of data, and it still wouldn't change your mind. So if it makes you feel good, live with your rose colored glasses one, and do nothing while your fellow humans, your fellow citizens are discrimated against in the workplace. But remember the old saying, if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[Misunderestimator]

38. Ok, I lost patience about a third way through your post...are you arguing

that there really is no disparity in incomes between men and women in identical jobs? That's what it seems you're saying. From my experience in a business where there are NOT fixed pay tables, but huge ranges of salary (e.g. $50,000 to $140,000 in a specific employment class) there is indeed a disparity between the salaries of men and women in IDENTICAL jobs.

[hfojvt]

40. don't go breakin' my heart

Example: "Women store managers , he found, made an average of $89,280 a year, $16,400 less than men."

My tax return of 2003 says I made about $13,000 that year. I lose sympathy for the problems of people who make more than $50,000. Maybe they will return the favor, but I say if you are frustrated by the glass ceiling, just look down. You are already flying, and there are many people below you crawling through the mud.
As a liberal white male, I am often supposed to protest about things which have nothing to do with my self-interest. And I do. "If there is a lower class, I am in it ..." but I draw the line when it comes to caring about the problems of people who are much better off than I.

[Misunderestimator]

42. Excuse me bud, but I was using that as an EXAMPLE...

Wow... now you as a white man, because you think I make more money than you (because of the example I used) think I have no right to complain about men who make more than I in an identical job working fewer than the 55-60 hours I put in. Personally, yes, I'm quite fortunate to have the success I have had, but it does not change the fact that it is an example of the disparity when getting to this level is easier for a man... and I have seen many men succeed more quickly who are less qualified than women on the same career path.

I did not ask you to care about my problems. The disparity exists at ALL LEVELS between men and women. You are making this personal and it is not a personal issue.

But thanks a whole lot for the judgmental nature of your post.

(And... with your logic, I suppose you wouldn't care about the problems that Christopher Reeve faced since he had so much money... is $50,000 the cutoff... is that where you stop caring about others?)

[hfojvt]

49. It is not about having a right to complain

I am just trying to explain why your ("your" meaning highly paid women who have been bruised by the glass ceiling) complaints might be met with a shrug. Of course, you know why some people, named bub, would shrug, because they are judgmental moronic a-holes.
Was my post really judgemental? Moreso than your rebuttal which brands me with a scarlet J?
I was not trying to make it personal. It is not your personal problems which do not concern me, but the specific problem of a female store manager complaining that she makes $16,000 less than a male counterpart. If there are better examples, you need to use them. I believe, from my personal experience, that the disparity does not exist at all levels. Female temps make the same as male temps when they work in the same factory and have the same seniority.
Yes, you correctly reduced my logic to an absurdity. Technically correct, since you looked for wording which could prove me a fool, while simultaneously missing my point. Yes, I should have said that I do not care about the relatively minor problems of people who are better off than I am. How much do you care about the problems of people like me? I just get the sense that you are looking for a way to use my words to string me up. You are, of course, free to prove me wrong in that assumption/feeling and also in the misconceptions which I hold about unequal pay.

[Misunderestimator]

51. You are turning it into me caring if someone shrugs...

I was keeping within the subject I was responding to about the disparity in wages between men and women... not whether anyone cares... apparently few do.

As for caring about the "problems of people like you"... it is the very root of the reason I am a liberal. I care about everyone who suffers. I myself was poor for many years. Sorry if you took it the wrong way, but it felt as if you were judging me.

Perhaps the disparity does not exist at ALL levels but it has been proven to exist in most.

There are plenty of examples... See post #36:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3175618&mesg_id=3178278&page=

[Nikia]

73. I don't think women on the lower end of income have it better

The example that you used of temps make me think of how things are in my factory. There are two pay categories for general production labor. The higher pay category is made up of mostly men. The lower category is made up of mostly women. When I first started in a semiprofessional role (different pay altogether), I overheard the production superviser requesting people through the temp agency, specifying the gender of the workers he wanted for particuliar positions. I am not sure if that is still done now, but I don't think that it is a coincidence that the temps doing the lower pay positions are generally female and the temps doing the higher pay positions are male.
To be fair, there generally are some kind of lifting requirements or skills for the higher pay grade, but I do not believe that the lifting requirement is out of the range of most young women and question why men seem to be given priority for learning the skills, such as forklift driving, when there is on the job training. It is, of course, better now than before I started. They have an affirmative action policy now and although the lower pay grade is synonymous with "women" there are a few women in the higher pay grade now.
When I described the different pay grades and what the positions entailed to my dad, who had worked most of his life in manufacturing, he commented that they shouldn't have different pay grades, given their strong association with gender, and were opening themselves up to a lawsuit. On the otherhand, I read the book "Paradoxes of Gender" by Judith Lorber, who said that such workplace practices were common. Some jobs are classified as female jobs and some as male jobs, with the male jobs paying more. Supervisers encourage workers to take positions fitting with their gender. They look the other way when women taking male positions are treated poorly by their male coworkers.

[Tsiyu]

75. Well honey

I've got you trumped.

I made $5000 last year. So what?

Do you want your sister, your future wife, your daughter to be paid fairly?

I care about ALL of us and EACH of us earning what we are worth. No matter the pay scale.

Will you be this heartless to each group as you move up the payscale or are you just really bitter right now?

[Blue Wally]

58. Women do earn less than men

No doubt about it. The numbers that the source was throwing around though had some serious statistical holes in them.

1. If public school teachers are on a rigid pay scale, and male school teachers earn more than female school teachers then something other than discrimination must be moving them up the pay scale.

2. If doctors are either in partnerships or sole proprietorships and male doctors earn more than female doctors, are there reasons other than the public choosing not to see a female doctor??

I pointed out some very specific areas in which the study is not "normed" for exterior factors and where dissimilars may be being compared.

[Nikia]

70. Few doctors around here are on their own

Most people have HMO and PPO insurance where I live in Wisconsin. Family doctors tend to be employed in clinics with several doctors. Even when there are only 1 or 2 doctors, they are not employed by themselves, they are usually employed by the managed care franchise that they belong to. There are only a few independent doctors who usually have several years experience already and a superior amount of business sense compared to their collegues. I don't know if these doctors make more. They aren't getting as good of deals with the insurance companies. I think that the ones who had already distinguished themselves do. Others might make less, but desrire independence or to be able to provide a more caring traditional practice to people in a particuliar area.

[Blue Wally]

74. In theory

Doctors in PPO (and in dispersed HMO) are on their own and have contracts with the PPO/HMO. Doctors with cetralized HMO (like Kaiser Permanente) are on salary (and may be participants in ownership). The primary care providers in HMO/PPO are usually in the specialties of general practice, family practice, and pediatrics. The primary care provider is usally the lowest paid in the PPO/HMO hierarchy. The specialists (especially surgeons) who they refer you to are reimbursed at much higher levels. Unfortuantely, female doctors are under-represented in the surgical fields compared to their presence in the overall field of MD. Is this discrimination?? Career choices??

It is sort of like someone running around and saying "Outrage, outrage, there are no African-Ameirican faculty in the Slavic History Department." Before you can say discrimination, you have to look at what factors other than hiring and promotion discrimination might lead to a dearth of African-American history PhD with concentrations in Slavic History as faculty candidates.

[noiretextatique]

76. what is that 'something' if not discrimination?

a different payscale for female and male teachers? that's called institutional discrimination.

[ultraist]

63. Women hold less than 5% of TOP CEO positions

There is not only unequal pay for equal work, there is a glass ceiling for women and minorities.

[CornField]

32. Prior to Viagra coming on the market

most insurance companies refused to pay for birth control pills and other contraceptives. There was never a discussion about not paying for Viagra -- it was just automatically covered by the insurance companies.

Women's organizations then went to the insurance companies to point out this double-standard. That's way so many insurance companies (but still not all) cover contraceptives for women.

[seabeyond]

34. here is an ex: of attack on woman, right on this board

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3177500

[Nikia]

41. I disagree

My experiences as a woman, a friend of other women, and friend of men, would lead me to disagree with you. Men freely brag about their sexual experiences and numbers. Women do not brag and few would admit to double digit partners and if they did, not as something that they were proud of. Many of those guys bragging about having sex with many women would not have a long term relationship with any of these "loose" women. They still prefer women with few if any sexual partners. Many women are not bothered by a man with an extensive past and many don't want a relationship with a virgin or someone who only a partner or two prior. Television is not reality. The sexual double standard is present.

[ultraist]

64. "Fun to date, but not someone to marry."

That is the typical attitude about promiscious women.

She's a very kinky girl...not someone I would take home to mother.

[Me.]

44. So Far Over Two Centuries Have Passed

since this country began. How many more before we have a woman president?

[secular_warrior]

45. which is why I oppose cultural 'liberalism'

because it has become cultural libertarianism - a product to be sold, where sex and violence along with money is used to create a class structure where only the best looking, toughest and richest rule over everyone else - they are held up by the culture as being superior.

The capitalists love cultural liberalism - it allows them to sell whatever they want, use anyone they can to sell it - morals of any kind (whether it comes from right, left or center) be damned.

Cultural conservatism is bad, but it's not worse than what we have now.

One day liberals will agree with me and many other populists on the left who oppose cultural liberalism.

I have much more of a kinship with a poor conservative than I do an economically, culturally, or sexually elite (by the standards of Madison Ave) 'liberal'.

[bloom]

47. "a class structure where only the best looking, toughest and richest rule"

I don't think you'd find so many people here that go along with that.


Most here reject the models put forth by the advertising industry as being anything anyone should be using for inspiration or emulation.


I suppose it does sound like a lot of people seem to promote the idea of sexual freedom and promiscuity to some extent. I don't really relate to the idea of men OR women being promiscuous - so I'm probably just an old fuddy-duddy. :)

Recently a young person said he was going to wait to have sex because he didn't want to have the pressure of child support or marriage at this point in his life. What a concept. The odd thing is that is seems that few would want to admit to being so sensible. And that does seem to be media/advertising driven.

[American Tragedy]

52. Well, your lifestyle is your own prerogative.

My only problem is when people advocate law enforcement of their particular lifestyle or "cultural conservatism".

[secular_warrior]

62. to me, it's less about lifestyle and more about who gets to be the elite

My critique of the culture is from the left of liberal, not the right.

I disagree with people who are supposedly better looking, better socially and better otherwise ruling over people who are supposedly inferior .. the whole MTV/Madison avenue culture of McDomination.

Liberalism is supposed to be about creating flatter economic AND social structures. But most modern liberals in the culture are all about social domination - they have no problem with it - most Hollywood stars are 'liberal'.

The cultural elite need to be taken down - whether they come from the left, center or right.

[ultraist]

66. What is cultural liberalism?

You seem to be confounding cultural liberalism with consumerism and classism.

[secular_warrior]

67. not really

there are only two cultures:

-one left leaners side with - which is produced by the free market libertarians.
-one right leaners side with - which is produced by the Christian right.


Cultural liberalism became one with the cultural libertarianism a long time ago. The free market libertarians know how to package and sell "revolution."

Sure there are the few real liberals who make a fuss about consumerism, materialism and narcissism - but they are in the shadows. MTV, Hollywood, Starbucks and Madison Ave- i.e. the entertainment industry- has become the the face of cultural liberalism, with self-proclaimed liberals in very visible positions -tools - capitalist whores.

Just think, when the Academy Awards convenes, nearly all of those people are self-proclaimed liberals. All rich, good looking, superficial and socially elite.

[NightOwwl]

50. The simple reason you don't see it...you aren't a woman.

I'll bet with a little makeup, a razor, and a dress you could pass for a woman. Live as one for a month, then come back and tell me there's no sexual double standard.

By the way, have you noticed all those 70 year old women with the young studs? Wait a minute, there aren't any. Plenty of craggy old men with hot young babes, though. That should tell you something.

[Just Me]

55. Your post simply,...is beyond me.

Today is as "perverse" as the 50's and 60's?

Women are "knockin' boots" more now than then?

What is your point?

Is it about S-E-X or the struggle women have sought for E-Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y,...WHICH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH SEX?

What's your point?

[ultraist]

65. He obviously isn't looking : "I see little evidence"

"...missed that perverse, paradoxical idolization/subjugation construct that was still foisted upon American women throughout the 50's and 60's, but I see little evidence of the oft-mentioned prejudice lingering in the cultural consciousness..."

I have to say again to the OP author, 50's and 60's? Dude, you need to brush up on your "education" of feminism.