Big dinner tomorrow with about 10 neocons- need talking points.

[Guaranteed]

Tomorrow night my girlfriend and I are going to dinner with about 10 of her neocon co-workers. It's going to be me and her against them, basically, except for one Jehovah's Witness.

Anyway, I'm here on DU every day, but going up against so many people I feel I need some serious armament. You guys have any fresh, clever talking points I can clown them upside the head with? I'm thinking I need some real good stuff that they've never even thought of before. Something to send one reeling, so I can take on the next one.

No conspiracy theory stuff, though- I have to maintain my credibility.

Whatcha got? I'll make ya proud. :)

[LiberalVoice]

1. Well, if you wanna pissem off

dont stop talking about Gannongate! lol

[Guaranteed]

3. Hee hee, yes, as Scotty knows, Gannon's good to call on when

things get tough.

[wryter2000]

4. That's my suggestion, too

What can they possibly say to defend JimmyJeff Gannon-Guckert? And don't let them pull that "his private life" crap. Since when is advertising your services as a prostitute on the internet private?

[Guaranteed]

7. Yup. I could stick 'em with that one all night. nt

[radfringe]

37. Private life argument

if you mention that Clinton's affair with Monica pertained to his private life they'll point out that it's different because Clinton was president at the time and was expected to set a better example

so -- you counter with Gannon is a journalist and journalists are expected to maintain a standard of credibility, which he doesn't -- and then ask them if Michael Moore or Al Franken had porn-sites on the internet(s) would that hurt or enhance their credibility and standing? Would they want their children to be reading articles or watching porn vendors? And having porn sites open to the public precludes any expectation of privacy. the purpose of websites is to get people to go to them, get information and hopefully make some money out of them -- sooooo it's open to the public, it's not private

if they bring up gay marriage -- roll your eyes and say "ya know, from 2000 to 2004 bush and GOPers blamed everything on Clinton -- now it looks like for the next 4 years everything will be blamed on gay marriage -- I expect to see an article or two blaming the Hockey Season cancelation blamed on gay marriage.... (sigh) ... I wonder when republicans will take responsibility and be held accountable instead of spinning, passing the buck or playing pin-the-blame on someone else."

[ClintonTyree]

2. You don't need talking points................

you need an Uzi. Seriously, you're never going to make any inroads with that many like-minded nitwits around. To try, will be an excercise is frustration on your part.

[Guaranteed]

5. Well, I'm going to try. I just need real good ones.

I need a Howitzer. :P

I've been training my mind for this moment for the past two and a half years, feels like.

[kevinmc]

6. I'm here on DU every day...........

Then you should all ready know.

[Guaranteed]

9. It's all there, I just need to bring up to the forefront,

simplify it all, maybe put a few nasty twists on it to really catch 'em off guard.

[kevinmc]

66. I post this everyday on Blogs............

Another day less for “The Bush” being in office, and another day closer for him to see Hell.

"The Bush" ignored 52 warnings about Bin Laden and Al Qaeda using a suicide attack and killing 3000 people.

Condi Rice and “The Bush’ are still getting a good belly laugh out of that one.

[RobertSeattle]

8. Are you sure they are Neo-Cons?

Many real conservatives can't stand the Bush Administration because it's anything but truly conservative. The Neo-Cons have drank the kool-aid and they can't admit they've done anything wrong in the past 4 years.

[Guaranteed]

10. Oh, no, they all love Bush. nt

[RobertSeattle]

14. Ugh - Talk about Sports/Weather/Oscars

Step AWAY from the politics unless you enjoy the fight.

[Us vs Them]

11. Don't incite.

Feel free to sit there smugly and let any potentially snide comments of theirs glide right over you. Be civil. Neo-cons live by crude generalisations. All liberals are scrappy hippies that like to throw rocks at protests and do nothing but whine. Is that true? Hardly.

If they insist on attempting a civil discussion of politics, inform them that you attended this dinner to eat, and have no intention of losing your appetite at their expense.

[Guaranteed]

15. I've kind of already thrown down the gauntlet.

They're always picking on my girlfriend- she doesn't follow this stuff very much- and putting dumbass ideas in her head. Repeating Fox News shit constantly. And they're Bible-thumpers, too, big time.

I'm feeling bloodlust.

[Us vs Them]

21. Just remember, you can show by doing.

By allowing yourself to get angry they will only leave this experience having blocked out every logical point you may have thrown at them, and it will only have reinforced their liberal stereotypes.

Bloodlust is good, but revenge is often best served cold. Dinner etiquette allows for quite a few opportunities at subtle jabbing, but keep a level head. The payoff will be grand.

[Guaranteed]

26. That's most important. Maintain composure.

No matter what.

[rkc3]

34. If they're Bible thumpers - ask them about Matthew 25 and the Sermon

on the Mount (Beatitudes). Ask them how tax cuts for the rich help to feed the poor, clothe the naked, and so on.

Ask them how using napalm in Fallujah would fit in with the Beatitudes.

Of course, you are likely to hear that the children killed in Fallujah were likely to grow up to be terrorists anyway. In which case, tell them they're full of shit.

[Guaranteed]

39. Maybe we could just have a Bible session.

I could just see myself reading to them out of the Gospel LOL "See what Jesus said?"

[Maru Kitteh]

59. If they try to justify killing children...................................

Ask them this:

If Jesus was Gods perfect message on Earth, then why did he not start wars and kill children? If killing children is just, why wasn't Jesus in the business of blowing babies up?

[Roger Pedacter]

103. Thanks for reminding me. This pisses me off! Why does

the U.S. military always go after the CHILDREN!?!?!?!

Yeah, the MSM doesn't show it, but it has happened! Why did Afghanistan fall so easily to the US? Because the strong honorable Taliban fighters couldn't stand to watch more of their CHILDREN get murdered by the cowardly US MILITARY!!!!! This pisses me off! If given the chance, our average GI will RUN from a confrontation with an Afghan farmer holding a rake, to seek out his children, and then kill them in their beds!

I'm against Bus*Co's child-killing machine. You should be too!

[FreedomAngel82]

86. I think if politics come up

stay civil. If they get you really angry just walk off with your girlfriend. Try to remain calm and stay on the facts. Don't let them have the conversation or bring religion in if you don't believe in it and remind them of that and the first ammendment and that you have the right not to believe.

[porkrind]

87. What would Chomsky do?

Seriously, just think about how Chomsky would act. He wouldn't get worked up. He would launch into a scholarly discourse that would make all their republican talking points seem childish and provincial. Just relax and be reasonable. Remember, your politics are based in reality and morality. Their's are based on greed and deceit.

[Occulus]

95. on dinner etiquette,

If they use the 'W' ketchup, can one say, "Pass the Dubya, please?"

You have my permission to knife the rice, if served,

and:

Ask them if they have any Pickles. Just for fun. They don't need to know why.

:silly:

[Occulus]

92. You might want to remind them, then,

that Faux won a case in court allowing them to lie in their newscasts.

Courts have held they don't have to tell the truth, even about serious matters. So, when they spew Faux 'facts', it is a fact that some of it is likely to be biased lies.

[conseco]

12. Go nude

That will throw them off.

[Guaranteed]

13. I can already tell that they're going to harp on the Iraq elections...

How should I respond to that? I think a combo of it still being detrimental to our national security, and the fact that the Shiites have taken over might be the best way...

[Pepperbelly]

22. what the Iraq elections prove is that Iraq will become another ...

Islamic Republic, like Iran, and there isn't shit we can do about it except stay there against the wishes of the government.

The shame is that before Bonehead interfered, the place was stable even if it wasn't a shining beacon of human rights. Now, it isn't stable nor is it a shining beacon of human rights and has become a terrorist stronghold when it wasn't before.

[Tactical Progressive]

31. If you want to address their beloved Iraqi elections

Tell them how everyone explained to BushCo that the best possible outcome of invading Iraq would be turning the relatively progressive and secular government of Iraq over to the hard-core religious Shiite sect under the cover of 'democracy'.

Tell them that a Shiite-controlled Iraq is exactly what you said would happen, and that that probably isn't going to be a real good thing.

Tell them that you don't need to listen to people crowing about what you told them was going to happen all along, especially when they never wanted to, and still don't, know what that means.

[Guaranteed]

36. LOL good point about their bragging when we SAID

it was going to happen.

[never cry wolf]

52. Don't forget, bunnypants didn't want the elections

The admin and the CPA did not want the elections at that point in time, but Al-Sistani insisted and backed it up with a march of something like 50,000 shia in Bagdhad.

I am not sure of the details, but the gist is true.

You can remind them how they must have celebrated when the CPA handed over "authority" to the Iraqis and that they probably thought things would quiet down then, and instead all hell broke loose.

Also, remind them that Allawi was a CIA asset, and once a CIA asset, always a CIA asset. Ask them why the early returns had the shite coalition at over 60% and Allawi at 4%, then after 2 weeks and recounts it the shite at 48% and Allawi at 14%. Remember all those pics of the ballots being delivered, in Humvees! You think maybe, just maybe a few weren't switched?

[Maru Kitteh]

67. "But......." (they'll say) aren't the PEOPLE of Iraq better off?"

1. The dead ones? No, they are decidedly much worse off. So are their families.
2. Maybe about half of them, but what about the people here? Are you happy that your kids are going to pay for this for decades?
3. When civil war breaks out and the Muhlahs take over, I'm going to remind you about the "democratic elections".
4. If Bush is so worried about the people of the world living free why didn't he send the army to Sudan? Oh, that's right, not quite enough oil.

[simcha_6]

89. Oh, yeah

Hit'em with the debt, the defecit, and the falling dollar, which means that imports are all more expensive.

[gratuitous]

32. Oh yes, those successful elections

And yet we're still losing four or five soldiers every day, as well as dozens of Iraqis, to suicide bombers.

Bring up Ahmad Chalabi, one of Stupidhead's guests of honor at the 2004 State of the Union speech who became "Ahmed Who" three months later when it turned out he was spying for Iran.

How about Bernard Kerik, originally picked to succeed Unibrow Ridge as director of Homeland Security? His mistresses and trysts kind of put the kibosh on that. Have your friends tell you again how committed the Bush administration is to national security that it could nominate someone like Kerik without a background check for such an allegedly key position. Either the position isn't worth a bucket of warm piss or the Bushistas don't think security is all that important for just plain folks.

Let's see, torture? The inevitable is happening in regard to that: Detainees who have been tortured and who, it turns out (darn the luck) not to have been terrorists after all, and now the adminsitration doesn't know what to do with them. They don't really want to kill them as the detainees haven't done anything wrong, but they can't release them, either. Odd situation for a man as upstanding and moral as Simpleton W. Bush to be in, don't you think?

That should do for the appetizers. You might be dining alone by the time the main course arrives.

[punpirate]

35. Well, staying cool and playing on their fears...

... might be the best approach. The conservative mind hates change--fears it more than anything. Right now, they all think they're going to get rich because the neo-cons are in control--that means they think they're in control. Put some doubt in their minds.

"Ah, well, just wait and see."

"Think you'll like working for the Chinese?"

"You guys can ride the slide all the way down if you want--I've been buying Euros."

They love war, so you won't get anywhere arguing that. Just hint at the worst thing possible for them--being broke and rummaging in dumpsters for their next meal. Make `em feel like banana republicans.... :)

[retnavyliberal]

57. You could say, "Yea, that 'Food-4-Vote' program sure helped the turnout."

I don't have those tread links, but I am sure someone here knows how to find them. I found those articles helpful when debating the elections.

[Pepperbelly]

16. 52 fucking warnings before 9/11 ... some describing PLANES

used as weapons ...

I don't think they can hear that enough either.

[Guaranteed]

17. That's an excellent one. nt

[FreedomAngel82]

90. Dealing with 9/11

some good information is in this movie:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1410.htm

Tons of dirt on Bush you can use on him "protecting" us.

[Tactical Progressive]

18. I'm sure a few well-reasoned points will change their minds.

You probably just haven't been able to clearly express your points well enough up to now. Well, you and ninety-million other people working on it for the past fifty years.

[Guaranteed]

19. LOL good point.

But even if I'm not going to change their minds, I gotta fight 'em. They gotta know that we're not going to go along with this crap.

[blm]

20. Remember, when they say sex life is private, remind 'em it was BUSINESS

for Gannon, and NOT his private life. A business of sex that is advertised on several sites is NOT legal and NOT private.

[Pepperbelly]

24. I guess then they would also agree that for Prez Clinton, it was

business?

:D

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

23. I also have a neocon dinner next month....

Since we are talking to neocons, I plan to use shame during my dinner. I will speak to how I am a 'Rockefeller Republican' and those with the true pedigree are historically social liberals/fiscal conservatives...the polar opposite of the Rapturist Right, warmongering neocons.

I also plan to bring up the 'SpongeBob scandal' as an example of their warped extremism, the growing deficit burdening our children and speak historically about "empire building".

Good luck.:toast:

[Guaranteed]

27. All excellent points.

Was thinking of telling them that they have no right to even call themselves conservatives myself.

[Us vs Them]

28. Exactly!

I've gained much respect from so-called Republicans by talking these same points. Once you've established common ground, they're far more likely to listen to your seemingly logical points of view.

It's crucial to tailor your message to this type of crowd. Surprisingly, shame is one thing they still respond to.

[proud patriot]

25. Republicans Trash The U.S. Constitution

The Patriot Act , States Rights , Balanced Budgets
In Debt and vulnerable economically to China.

And the Clincher Abortion rates went up by 22%
under bush's leadership .

[applegrove]

29. Ask them if gun control needs to be looked into since 3000 Americans die

needlessly by guns every month - the same # as were killed on 9/11

Ask them if they truly believe that WWII was caused by nations not 'having enough pride' and Woodrow Wilson - as opposed to Hitler.

Ask them if it really is realistic for them to be following Disraeli's thinking and using 'patriotism' as a way for elite conservatives to recapture the vote after elitism is out. Seeing as how in 40 China, Brazil, India & Russia will together form an economy 10 times greater than the current combined economies of the West, that the USA Neocon philosophy will simply result in bankruptcy like the Soviets if Americans try to out militarize their opposition. Tell them that when the USA was the biggest and baddest democracy on the planet it spent its children out of good schools and equality with militarism. And all the USA had to do was to build about 30 bases in the world and fight the odd war. How on earth is the USA going to be the "policeman" in ALL OF OUTER SPACE while it is a declining power (in terms of wealth). Even if the USA ever reaches full employment again - there will not be enough people to make the GNP rise in any comparison to the emerging giants. America is mature. The ratio of military spending to "butter" will be even less favorable to equality & human capital investment as in the past. Why would anyone even want to live in that America? Right now the equality of wealth within America is closer to that of Mexico and Russia. The first is a traditional South American Oligopoly with huge transfers of wealth to the lower/middle classes from within the USA itself - which probably has allowed for enough trickle to stop outright war and let some reforms take place. The second has been a democracy for 15 years and before that was the poorest nation Old Europe had ever seen.


Ask them if they do not agree that neocon actions have destabilized the world. From Israel funding Hamas to get at Arafat (that worked really, really well eh?) - to laying down the gauntlet and forcing 'defensive alliances' to erupt all over the world in Anti-American ways - perhaps 20 years early ... what exactly have neocons done. And having gone after a weak (but oil rich) dictator and proved that that 'easy' target was an awful lot to chew on and showed the weakness in American military might - do you think they should eat crow and kiss the feet of the UN & EU who now 'hold their noses' and try and patch the Iraq up because to let USA be humiliated at the end of its 'summer' could make for a dangerous beast.

[Sparkle]

30. Make sure you print out all those dick pics of Gannon to show them.

:-)

[Verve]

33. Get a copy of Tom Wolfe's "I am Charlotte Simons" (all 700 pages)

and show all the neocons what Shrub reads in his spare time. It's definitely not the BIBLE. And it's definitely not a biography of Winston Churchill, Abe Lincoln or some book that may give our president insight into how to get us out of the war he started. Instead, this book is about a young college girl losing her virginity, the alcohol and drug induced parties she attended and the other "romps in the hay" during her college years. (don't forget, 700 pages of detailed accounts!)

I laugh thinking of all the evangelicals who are going to run out and buy this book the "president read" only to be horrified by it's contents.

What a hypocrite G.W. is!

[FreedomAngel82]

91. Is this recent?

And is he promoting the book or anything? LOL. Too funny. I would love to see one of his followers go to a book store and ask for it and buy it and then get home all ready to read something that's like from Falwell or something and instead they get this book! LOL! Next time I talk to a pro-Bush and they go on about how Godly he is I'll recommend they read that book and that Bush is reading it. LOL!

[EC]

38. Ask them very innocently where they think the

9 billion went? Just disappeared with Bremmer?

[InternalDialogue]

40. Let them dig their own grave

Use Howard Dean's method of not responding to unsourced questions or accusations.

Let's face it, we all know the inanity of most freeper arguments and how their ultimate base is a thin sheet of ultra-patriotic adages and nonsequiturs.

I say you let them step in the muck first, ask them to convince you. (After all, we know you're right, they should have to talk the sense OUT of you.) Ask them to back their arguments with facts, figures, authentic quotes, etc. Facts will lead to the truth, and they'll be left with bluster and foam at the mouth.

Example (straight from Outfoxed): Don't let the "some say" intro off the hook. Ask "Who says?" Let them fumble for something real to back their crap with. Without a source for a quote like that, you can't reasonably be asked to trust the information that follows, can you?

Above all, go in there knowing you're in the right. It's not your job to drill the truth into them. If they're itching for the fight, let them choose their topic, then ask them to expound upon it. Then break their argument with calls for verification when called for (and it will be often).

My family, save one sister, are all Kool-Aid drinkers. I tired of arguing to no avail with them and regretted the hard feelings that came from some of the fights. Now I don't raise the issue, but when one of them does, it's certainly civil to not let unsubstantiated facts and misquoted information go by without challenging.

You hold the high ground, let them claw up to you if they dare.

[otohara]

41. I'd Cancel

Why put yourself through such torment? Trying to talk sense to these types is a "big-ass" waste of your time. Go see Sideway's instead.

[raggedcompany]

43. Agreed: beg off sick. By the end of the night you'll be sick anyway.

What a great way to ruin a meal: dine with the enemy.

[Guaranteed]

80. HA!! THEY canceled.

What a bunch of COWARDS.

You hear that, you freeper fucks?? THEY CANCELED.

For the SECOND TIME, by the way.

[FreedomAngel82]

93. Oh wow

I wonder why. Did they mention? Nice you don't have to ruin a good dinner. Maybe now you and your girlfriend could have just a nice romantic night out. :) No freepers aloud.

[tcoursen]

42. Why bother?

If it is going to be 10-1 and you feel that it is them against you and you will be uncomfortable at the dinner why bother?

Why put yourself in a situation where you know you will not have a good time. Even if you have better points then them and score a few hits, it will still end up being a frustrating situation.

[Pepperbelly]

48. for the struggle... duh!

I understand completely. But 10 to 1? Shoot, they probably need to find another 10 or 15 neocons to make it close to even.

[bpilgrim]

44. i'd play up the FAITH-BASED vs REALITY-BASED talking points and...

the FACTS ON THE GROUND.

if you stick with that... everything on their agenda has been a failure according to their OWN predictions and assumptions thus far.

taking over the world/world cop is typically a notion conservatives are against and usually they are fiscal conservatives so point to the debt a lot as well.


losing our civil liberties means we are losing are freedoms and hence the war.

abortions are up during this admin.

Regan won the cold war and bush is losing it, didn't they just raise a statue to Stalin in Russia.

point to the cuts to police fire and vets, weak border security, jobs going over seas, dollar dropping, oil over 50 dollars a barrel and them ignoring science in favor of political talking points, fake news, and environment, haliburton, corp corruption, phew the list is long and sordid.

peace

[FreedomAngel82]

94. Also

don't forget they can't blame Clinton or 9/11 either. It's been a good while since 9/11 and Bush had plenty of time to raise things up but hasn't. He's been too busy with war. :eyes: And Clinton has been gone for five years now. Once Bush took oath in 2000 it was his duties and all on his shoulders and not Clinton. I hate when they blame him for EVERYthing. *sigh*

[Coventina]

45. All I can say is, "Why aren't you in Iraq?"

And if they try to tell you that the military won't take them, suggest they drive Halliburton trucks.

[mattclearing]

46. Yeah, tell them if they support our foreign adventures so much, that

our armed forces are understaffed and would love some help.

[YDogg]

53. Yeah ...

... stop by a military recruiting office beforehand and pick up 10-20 applications ... whip them out as you are heading for the door, and suggest they put their money where their mouth is.

[B Calm]

47. I wouldn't bring up politics!

[B Calm]

50. but, if the discussion does come up, I would mention Social Security

and the only reason why cheap labor cons want to get rid of it is so they'll have millions of old people who will have to work for pennies to survive..

[Dorian Gray]

49. Try not to talk

about politics so that your girlfriend doesn't look bad. She's the one who has to work with them, so she's the one who should set the tone of the conversation. You should just sit back and behave yourself. If she gives you the green light, however, bombs away.

[Booster]

51. There was a thread on DU yesterday that Bush had named

Bill Bennett to head the reform of Soc. Sec. I haven't seen anything else on this, but if you can find anything on the internet that makes this a fact, I would love to be there when you bring it up. Like I said tho, I can't find anything to suggest it's true. They couldn't possibly defend appointing someone with an 8 million dollar gambling problem to head anything that has to do with other people's money.

[B Calm]

54. Bill Bennett to reform Social Security, OMG nothing surprises me!

[Pepperbelly]

58. Replace SS with Lotto!

Now we're getting somewhere!

:bounce:

[leftofthedial]

55. you don't need talking points

you need strychnine for their drinks

or maybe some C4 explosives, nails and screws, a length of pipe and a timer.

or, maybe just an extra clip

[Maru Kitteh]

56. How about tips instead? May I suggest one of these?

[many a good man]

60. There's no talking to Bush**-lovers

Its beyond hope and potentially dangerous. Avoid talking about politics at all costs. At the first sign of conversation turning to politics, say this:

"We'll never agree on politics but we can still be friends -- as long as we don't discuss politics. You should know, however, that when the civil war breaks out I will fight to the death against the fascists. "

[Just Me]

61. Hit 'em with rhetorical questions and refuse to offer your point of view.

For example, ask them if they believe "might is right" or whether every human being actually controls his/her destiny or if any human being knows all the answers or how well they believe a merit-based system is working in the U.S. Then, challenge their answer (which will be incredibly easy to do).

If they try to pull you in by demanding your opinion, tell them you don't know, that's why you asked them. It'll drive them freakin' nuts!!! I PROMISE *lol*.

[porphyrian]

62. "I poisoned what you just ate, you traitorous pieces of shit." - n/t

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

69. OK, now that was funny. ROTFLMAO. nt

[buddysmellgood]

63. Question everything they state as fact. They can never back anything

up with fact. If they cite a source, it's bound to be a lie or twisted fact.

[FreedomAngel82]

96. That reminds me of

when O'Reilly was telling some Canadian woman how the French were suffering from the "boycott" from Americans and he named some paper and it didn't even exist. :eyes:

[The Minus World]

64. Fight Clean.

These people are human beings, albeit hopelessly misinformed ones. There is absolutely no chance that you will de-program them, in a matter of an hour or two, from years of right-wing blather and propaganda.

As difficult as your dinner may be, I certainly wouldn't suggest some of the cowardly "call in sick" maneuvers, or the fake-macho "bring a hand grenade to dinner" bullshit. How else will one understand the odd psychology of a large portion of the American population if one refuses to interact with them?

I've been in a number of discussions with my right-wing parents, my girlfriend's right-wing parents, my right-wing sister and her neo-nazi husband, and my parents' right-wing friends. Not one time did I deign to back away, and not one time did I allow these misinformed individuals an opportunity to claim superior knowledge.

The first step is to abandon the DU ad-hominem polemic, just for diplomacy's sake.

Regardless of who you're talking to, it's an immediate aversion from intelligent conversation when one starts referring to "FReepers" and "pretzel-boy". Some have difficulty with this, but I offer: how are you supposed to make a point when you have already discredited yourself as an irrational partisan, in their opinions.

The goal is to exchange ideas, not to build a bunker and lob political grenades. These people, being Republicans, are immured within the bombast and illogic of right-wing talking points. You may be a very rare excursion into the world of rational thinking, for them.

The second step is not to regurgitate "talking points", since that's not how rational discourse functions. You need to understand their tactics, and call them on each and every one of them. If they are appealing to patriotism, explain to them how destructive that may be. If they are making unfair exceptions; sending liberals to the guillotine for crimes a Republican would be slapped on the wrist for, tell them.

Put them on the defensive, and do everything in your power - save from actually muttering the "h" word - to expose the hypocrisy in their beliefs.

Posturing as a moderate, unbiased spectator - a person viewing the world with a child's eyes - often works, as well. Remember that, although they may have an arsenal of refined talking-points, you're still on the side of the rational, thinking man. No political bias may stand up to that.

[Guaranteed]

70. Good post. Thanks! nt

[SpiralHawk]

65. Ask them if they think Bush really served in TANG honorably

Ask them wheat they think about his use of pot and cocaine.

Ask them if they think Bush has somehow transcended the role of his Skull & Bones Grandfater, the Nazi financier Prescott Bush.

[fob]

68. Here's my suggestion...

Wait until a natural time, don't insert or start conversation with this, just wait for a good stream of conservobush*it to flow. In fact it will help if you prod them in talking/crowing about all the secrecy and/or hording of power bush*co has done to date. Then at just the right point mention how sweet it's going to be when Hillary gets her hands on all that power! Don't argue after that point about the possibilities of that happening, just maintain like it's a done deal. They will probably go insta-wacky and try and blow off any sort of Hillary as Pres talk, but it WILL eat at them slowly but surely.

[marions ghost]

71. ask them if they think

Bush-Cheney won the election fair and square. If they say "sour grapes," just smile and say, well there's a lot of fraud everywhere these days" (a fact which nobody can refute). You'll only need to cite a couple of the most serious grievances on that before they'll change the subject. Many repugs know it's true.

Laugh a LOT--try to use humor wherever possible and don't let it get heavy. Act like you think all of it is so absurd as to be hilarious. That kind of confidence will really say a lot. Good luck. You don't have to get everything in. Relax and be yourself.
When in doubt, just laugh like a hyena.

[Guaranteed]

72. Alright, that's good for foreign policy.

I need more for the economy and SS, and then God stuff.

I think that's a fair way to break things up- foreign policy, economy and SS, and God Stuff.

[FreedomAngel82]

97. If they bring up religion

and you don't believe in it tell them that you don't believe in that but respect their religion. Remind them as a legal American citizen you have freedom of religion and FROM religion. It's not fair for people to use religion for justice since not everybody believes in it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

73. Vomit on the table..they liked it when Poppy did it

[librechik]

74. stick with Large Themes

The conservatives are always making a joke out of our media with their lies.

Do they never tire of throwing out a distraction while they pick your pocket?

For such high and mighty morally superior people they seem to have no grasp of real American values like independence, a living wage and truth in media.

The Daily Howler has a good series going, where Bob rewrites the soundbites for liberals who failed to m,ake their points becasue they got lost in details. Stick with the Big Picture.

Always start with a BIG PICTURE theme, tie in Bush's criminality, and then go on to the specific point.

[marions ghost]

78. good point librechik...

it's not necessary to reel out all the details. It's too easy to get sidetracked down a black hole that way. Go for the "big picture" sweeping generalizations which you have one or two facts to support. It's better to get across one memorable argument (or soundbite) than to inundate them with all the "weight" of evidence...esp in a social situation.

Don't let them get by with the "liberal media" lie.
Suggest they read "What's the Matter with Kansas?"

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

75. Grassroots efforts with those we know...

We can work to convert the rational thinkers...seriously, it can be done. I have bookmarked this thread and intend to refer to it for my future encounters with those needing to 'see the light'.

Please note: Not all Republicans are hopeless. There were many 'Republicans for Kerry' in my state and I believe the Dems can capture more of us in 06/08.

Thanks for this thread, BullGooseLoony.:yourock:

[bearfan454]

76. Ask them why we sold chemical weapons to Iraq

in the 1980's.

[John BigBootay]

77. How about just sucking it up and having a nice dinner???

I think you could set a dangerous precedent for civility.

[Guaranteed]

79. The precedent has already been set.

Nevertheless, they insist on picking on my girlfriend, ganging up on her, while she's at work. They take their Fox News and Rush Limbaugh garbage and they force-feed it to her. I'm sick of it. Like I said before, I've already thrown down the gauntlet.

[chlamor]

81. Read this aloud at dinner

I'm Serious. Thomas Aquinas said: "anger is a virtue". Be outraged.


Last June, Yves Eudes, a reporter for Le Monde, came
to my house and interviewed me about freewayblogging.
He was a younger man, in his thirties, good looking
and somewhat reserved, almost shy, which for a reporter
surprised me. As a political and war correspondent
he'd been in Iraq three times since the invasion and I
asked him what it was like. Specifically, I asked if
he'd seen anything he knew he'd never be able to
forget. He told me this story, and I think about it
whenever I feel like giving up.

"I was in Nasariyah and a couple came up to me on the
street asking for help. They were carrying a large
gym bag, an 'Adidas' bag, with their daughter inside.
The city was in chaos, and they came up to me, I
suppose, because I was a westerner and they thought I could
help them. When I looked inside the bag there was a
little girl, maybe two years old, with bandages around
her head. There was a terrible smell and I thought to
myself 'Okay, they have a dead girl...' The bandages
were loose and soaked in fluid - it was a terrible
wound, covering half her head. I guessed they'd gotten
her to a hospital and they'd done what they could
quickly and gave her back. It was the early days of the
war and the hospitals were full. I couldn't believe it
when I saw she was still alive."

"I took them to the Americans, and there was a woman
soldier there, a big woman, who said there was nothing
they could do... that it had to be a military casualty
or something like that. I forget exactly. I want to
say she was mean, but I don't know. More like she was
just following her orders... she stood like this..."
he said, and folded his arms across his chest.

"We went to a couple more soldiers, but it was the
same. There was one young soldier who went for help, but
then came back saying he couldn't do anything. I went
with them for awhile longer, but it was obvious I was
useless. Eventually they just went away."

We were sitting in my garage, surrounded by the tools
of my trade: cardboard, paint, overhead projector.
Outside it was a beautiful day: a warm, late afternoon
in sunny southern California. "It's hard to describe
what they were like, the parents... they were beyond
sad, beyond scared... they were doing the only thing
they could do - looking for help - and I couldn't help
feeling that I'd wasted their time. I don't know if I
will ever forget their faces, or what it was like to
see their little girl... but the thing I know I will
never forget is the way they looked as they walked away,
wandering the streets with their baby in that bag...
looking for someone who could help them."

http://www.freewayblogger.com/weblog.htm

And bring photos, the Good Book demands they "bear witness".

[Guaranteed]

82. Thomas Aquinas.

I have a LOT of respect for that man.

[FreedomAngel82]

98. Has she ever told her boss?

If she's at work and they're bothering her couldn't she complain and tell her boss she's trying to work but they keep bothering her? Don't bring up politics or anything. Just general bother. She has the right to complain. Has she ever told them to leave her a lone? :shrug:

[Guaranteed]

100. They're actually her friends. And they're not really

BAD about it....it's just little friendly jabs and stuff. But she's always having to ask me things like, "Is Dean a racist? That's what so-and-so said today..." And they do gang-up on her a lot, and they're using all the talking points from Rush and Fox News.

[Arkana]

83. Gannon, Guckert, and more Gannon

This story will make ANY neocon's face red in an instant.

[Grey Ranks]

84. You don't need talking point

You know what you believe.

Your situation more difficult than most conversations I encounter. Normally I speak with people it is one or two at a time. I speak with people a lot, all people. I have a track record of getting results. I have gotten people to think liberal who at the beginning of a discussion were Christian conservatives, some would call them fundamentalist.

Respect them, but don't back down on your point of view. In this way they will respect you. Don't allow them to gain the edges, or the offensive. Be offensive yourself, but do not appear so. Control the discussion. More by listening, wait for them to say something you can control. Include everyone and find an issue in which a couple of people are sympathetic to your view. If you are alone they may all gang up on you. If they do that at the same time they will remain united.

Bring out their point of contention. Strip away their arguments by asking questions until they contradict themselves. Make them see the flaws in their argument. They don't have to admit them, just make them see them. Example of what I mean. Today I was discussing gay marriage with a co-worker. I took away his arguments one by one until he was left with only conclusion, the fallacy of the bible in the matter. I did not say it, nor did he. Nonetheless it was there. You have to leave them with their pride.

Avoid labels: fundamentalist, neoconservative, liberal. Labels make them defensive, or make them label you. This is about people. Avoid points if you don't have evidence. Just don't bring it up if you can't remember your sources. At all cost AVOID BUSH as a topic. If you attack Bush you will lose instantly! It will be over, and the rest of the evening will be them against you. They will shut you out and hear nothing.

Lastly assume nothing, give people credit. People tend to categorize people. You said 10 neo-conservatives. No, they are ten people. Don't presume to understand them until you talk to them. People can surprise you. You may leave at the end of the evening with a new found respect and understand for them. More importantly they may leave with a new found respect and understanding of you! In that way you can change them. Stand by your principles.

[napi21]

85. I think you should just have a nice dinner. I doubt you can

succeede on a 10 to 1 odds. Even slot machines have better odds than that.

[simcha_6]

88. Gay Marriage

"Give me one reason against gay marriage not based on religion, morality, or anything that's relative."

Use Europe or Massachusetts if they say sanctity of marriage.

[G_j]

99. I don't know, I often reflect on how

most of us would not tolerate in our children what the Bush admin. does.
-accepting no responsibility for actions or 'mistakes'
-denying accountability
-spinning and manipulating the truth for ones own ends (telling lies)
-bullying and arrogance
-vendettas and retaliation against those that don't agree with you
-secretive behavior and lack of candor

Most parents and teachers struggle to correct this behavior in our children.

[Guaranteed]

101. That's a great one.

I'm gonna have to remember to make use of that one.

[G_j]

102. I've articulated it a lot better in the past

I bet you could too! good luck, btw :-)

[B Calm]

104. I wonder how the dinner is going.......

[Guaranteed]

105. They canceled it AGAIN last night.

It's going to be in two weeks, now.

They're probably still getting THEIR shit together.

That's right. Feel the fear, neocons. :)

[chlamor]

107. They always do that

Amy Goodman is always saying "We asked so and so (Right-Wing Think Tanker) to come on and they declined." Vampires don't like to be exposed.

[leanin_green]

106. You know what you should really do?

Honestly, arguing with these people only helps them. Their whole motis operandi is to shout people down or talk over you. It makes them feel superior.

The best thing to do is to just maintain an air of calm, detached humor. Get them to talk it up. Smile a lot and say, really? Then just shrug your shoulders, shake your head and chuckle. If asked why your chuckling, say, "To keep me from crying." This is an opportunity to hear in a more intimate way how they think. Use the time. Don't "cast your pearls before swine" so to speak. You don't have to prove anything to these people. Be confident in your values and don't allow yourself to be baited into being their laughing stock. They already think the Left is dead and a bunch of fools, please don't give them reason to keep thinking so.

If you must speak, speak in generalities. Frame issues in a context that is hard to disagree with. Something like, "It's sad to see so many people die in order to spread freedom." Or, "I think Iraq was a bad idea." If asked why, just say, "I don't feel I have to justify why. Just like bush doesn't feel he has to explain himself."

Either way, I wouldn't get into a pissing match with these people. You'll just find yourself seething and frustrated and having trouble digesting your dinner.

[Pushed To The Left]

108. Bring up the PHONINESS of the right wing

The right wing claims to be anti-abortion, yet they are against contraception and social programs that make it easier to raise kids. Abortions went up under Bush, but the right wing voted for him again anyway. Democrats are more effective in preventing abortion and they are pro-choice!

The right wing claims to be agaisnt illegal immigration. They control all branches of government, yet nothing seems to be happening to solve the problem. The reason is that they like illegal immigration because it gives them cheap labor! They would rather exploit the people that cross the border than do anything effective. Tell them they are being deceived by their party!

The right wing is phony on national security. They had no trouble finding Hussein, who wasn't involved with 9/11. Yet they still haven't found Osama bin Laden more than three years after 9/11! The threat of terrorism gives them more power, and that could be why they aren't doing more effective things to stop it.

Let them know that the right wing's #1 goals are profit, cheap labor, and control over the American people.