Recovering Repressed Memories of Sexual Abuse DOES HAPPEN!

[KittyWampus]

It is appalling that some DU'ers actually assert that repressed memories of sexual abuse can not or do not ever re-emerge later on.

Apparently, some have googled up half baked info in their zeal to debunk something they know next to nothing about. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Yes, it seems there are unscrupulous or incompetent 'therapists' who tease false memories out of their patients. Yes, those who have been coached into recovering false memories may have then gone on to wrongly accuse someone of being an abuser.

BUT, just because there a few quack therapists out there doesn't mean people don't:

1. develope amnesia regarding instances of sexual abuse
2. later recover their memories

Here is a comprehensive, BALANCED website covering many different aspects and angles of this subject:

Recovered Memories Of Sexual Abuse
http://www.jimhopper.com/memory/

Of particular interest to me are the tables provided in the segment on Feldman-Summers. Please take the time to see.

Psychologist Shirley Feldman-Summers is an independent practitioner in Washington state, and serves as an expert witness in civil and criminal cases. The paper below (follow link for full text) is a research study with data on rates of amnesia and delayed recall for child abuse experiences among a national sample of psychotherapists.

Feldman-Summers, S., & Pope, K. S. (1994). The experience of "forgetting" childhood abuse: A national survey of psychologists (full text) . Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 62, 636-639.

Abstract: "A national sample of psychologists were asked whether they had been abused as children and, if so, whether they had ever forgotten some or all of the abuse. Almost a quarter of the sample (23.9%) reported childhood abuse, and of those, approximately 40% reported a period of forgetting some or all of the abuse. The major findings were that (a) both sexual and nonsexual abuse were subject to periods of forgetting; (b) the most frequently reported factor related to recall was being in therapy; (c) approximately one half of those who reported forgetting also reported corroboration of the abuse; and (d) reported forgetting was not related to gender or age of the respondent but was related to severity of the abuse."
Two tables from the paper:

[Walt Starr]

1. what's even more appalling is that some DUers fall for the Satanic Panic

That's even more appalling, IMO.

[woo me with science]

33. Always wisdom from you. Thanks. nt

[Warpy]

2. Most memories that are recovered by hypnosis and other

extraordinary means turn out to be false memories. Most, not all.

However, repressed memories that jump up when a person has kids the same age they were when they were abused, or when they see a person who looks like their abuser, or even from smells or sounds, are generally sound ones.

Most folks who were abused remember it all too well.

[politicat]

3. Recovering memories in this way is very rare.

Recovering "implanted" memories through repressed memory therapy is unfortunately very common (and yes, in fact, I am something of an expert on this, having done extensive research on reconciliation in the families of recanting Recovered Memory therapy clients during grad school) and far more likely to result in a false positive than a true positive.

And the recovery of false memories hurts far more people than you'd ever imagine. Dozens of lives can be destroyed by RMT; the reverse is not usually true.

PCat

[KittyWampus]

4. There Are Some Posting Here Who Don't Bother Making The Distinction

between recovery through implantation/hypnosis and memories that are valid and have been verified through outside sources.

The lack of care is dangerous.

It is far too easy to allow society to say anyone accused of abuse that occured in the past is automatically innocent because "some experts say...".

[woo me with science]

9. "verification from outside sources"

is incredibly loose and unconvincing in most cases. There is an agenda to confirm, even on very scant evidence. Vague apologies from family members, or the reports of a sibling who has also recovered memories may suffice to "confirm" to someone that an entire satanic abuse scenario took place over years. Other people will claim that memories have been verified because objects or places associated with the abuse have been discovered. Memories created in therapy will of course recall actual settings and contexts from childhood. Because a room or an item exists, does not mean that satanic rituals took place there and with it. You lament in your original comment that people are "googling up" half-baked information. You might want to google up the methodological criticisms of the studies you point to above. They contain lots of examples of how "outside confirmation" is claimed erroneously by those who want to believe.

[KittyWampus]

50. Just Because YOUR Sister Had One Type Of Experience Doesn't Mean

that applies to all.

You are obviously biased.

[woo me with science]

10. May I email you please?

My sister is falling apart because of garbage therapy and memories of Satanic ritual abuse. She has already cut off almost everyone in our family, and we are terrified that she will kill herself. I want to read anything you can point me to that will help us understand better how to reach her. I have read a lot of the most recent research, but it sounds like you have access to things I might not be aware of. Would you be willing to write? I am also very interested in anything that will help me help my mom to cope with what my sister has accused her of. She is 75 years old, and this is destroying her.

[politicat]

76. Absolutely.

My email address is available in my profile; I'm not at home (and on a shaky phone line connection in Indiana), but I'll be home, and with my files the second week of March. I've also added you to my friends' list, and I'll ping you when I get home.

Pcat

[trotsky]

5. I agree with you completely on one point.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

[woo me with science]

34. agreed nt

[The Magistrate]

6. Thank You For Putting This Up, Ma'am!

You have provided those who resort to this forum with a valuable resource on this subject.

[Monkie]

7. if one called it triggered memory..

everyone "forgets" or represses things in their life.
a smell or a sound or almost anything can trigger a flood of memories.
i assume everyone has experienced this.
i wouldnt call this recovered memory but often see the two interchanged in discussion.
i dont doubt that some memories are false,i dont doubt that sometimes a disreputable therapist could influence a patient under their care.
but i dont see what this has to do with REAL abuse and why it has to be brought into every discussion of abuse as it adds so little positive and must hit the victims like a smack in the face every time they have to read through again and again.
they face enough difficulties and have to be brave enough as it is without being constantly denied in this way.

[woo me with science]

8. I know you believe this fervently,

but science suggests strongly that you are wrong. Occasional forgetting of events happens, yes, but not repression of brutal sexual abuse over many years. This type of repressed memory has been debunked by good research.

Most of the studies on your "balanced" website have already been discredited for shoddy methodology. They have important little problems like accepting the repressed memories of one sibling as objective confirmation of the repressed memories of another. Or using forgotten abuse documented in medical charts decades ago as evidence of repression, even when the events happened so early in life that we wouldn't expect them to have been encoded into long-term memory anyway. In order to accept that repressed memories are real today, you have to believe that memory for sexual abuse operates completely differently than memory for any other type of trauma ever studied, both physiologically and phenomenologically. You also have to accept constantly shifting explanations of its mechanism, many of which contradict each other and are completely incompatible with known neurology.

Support of repressed memories today is more religious movement than science. There is a social phenomenon, a Survivorship movement, out there that probably started out with noble goals, but has morphed into a something very unhealthy.

Not all sexual abuse survivors subscribe to it. Not even most of them, probably. A lot of abuse survivors probably sense how unhealthy Survivorship is, and they reject the therapy quietly. I am talking about a specific subset who embrace the "Survivor" (with a capital "S") identity and mythology, usually with the help of a therapist, and immerse their entire lives in their memories of real or imagined abuse. The belief in repressed memories is being kept alive now not by science, but by poorly trained therapists (note: hack professional schools are popping up like warts now because health insurance companies want cheap labor) and by self-selection of Survivors into the therapy industry. Most therapists who do this kind of work are Survivors themselves, with a capital "S." They are True Believers. The Feldman-Summers results are easily explained if you understand this.

You can find this subset of "Survivors" now in any city, just like you can find the predictable groups of Scientologists or people who believe they have been abducted by UFO's. They build their lives around therapy and their Survivor identities. You will find them bonding with each other, forming "support" groups to retell abuse stories, and referring back and forth to each others' therapists and bodywork specialists. If they leave a group in one city, they can easily hook up with a group in another city, that immediately has the same unwritten system of beliefs and values. They share self-help books that preach pseudoscience like EMDR therapy and give advice like, "If you ever think you might have been abused, you probably were." They believe in widespread satanic cults, body memories, and the truth contained in dreams of abuse. They give each other stuffed animals and have their inner wounded children rock dollies and talk in baby talk together. They bond to each other and advise each other to cut off anyone who questions their memories, no matter how bizarre or unrealistic they get. Like a true cult, it is important to purge the nonbelievers.

Real abuse is a terrible crime that no child should ever have to endure. I shouldn't even have to say that. Good therapy can be a godsend for those who have been abused, to help them move on and develop healthier relationships and a healthier sense of themselves. Unfortunately, a woman who seeks out therapy for abuse-related issues nowadays risks being referred to a True Believer. If she has actually endured abuse, this Survivors' cult will make sure she never moves beyond it. If she hasn't, it will help her dig deep for memories anyway. Repressed memories are not based in fact. They are a symptom of a social phenomenon. An experiment in therapy that went terribly wrong.

[Eloriel]

IT DOESN'T TAKE MANY YEARS, or even brutal

It's not necessary for any abuse to be "brutal" or "take place over many years" in order for it to be both incredibly harmful and damaging to the child AND something that gets repressed.

So I oughtn't read any further than your first paragraph, with its ultra false premise. Nothing else you can say can have any real validity.

Child Sexual abuse is epidemic in our culture. It creates deeply damaged human beings who may or may not be functional on a lot of different levels, but who typically go on to be addicts, alcoholics and other substance abusers, pssibly incapable of forming lasting relationships (creating a string of broken homes), etc. They're they people who populate our sex industry with "employees." They're the people who are currently sexually abusing, molesting, raping our kids -- from their own fathers/stepfathers/mothers' boyfriends, to uncles, grandfathers, next door neighbor, family friend, parish priest or protestant minister.

THIS HAS TO STOP; we have to stop ruining our kids so that they fit into the sex industry consumers-and-producers vicious cycle and feed other negative forces (addictions, etc.) and cost society so much money and human heartache. It's not going to GET stopped if we don't face the truth.

In order to accept that repressed memories are real today, you have to believe that memory for sexual abuse operates completely differently than memory for any other type of trauma ever studied, both physiologically and phenomenologically.

That too is simply false. In another thread that touched on the subject (yesterday) I shared an incident that I repressed as an adult (someone said something outrageous to me and I've never YET been able to remember exactly what she said -- I just know how shocked what she said made me feel). I've had a few other similar examples as well. For one thing, I had what HAD to have been a traumatic medical emergency when I was five. I know about it because of what's been told to me. I have never been able to remember anything about it. Nothing. And yet there are a few other things I can remember that happened at that age.

Hundreds of thousands if not millions of combat veterans and others who've experienced war or other PTSD-causing experiences could also tell you a thing or two about repressed memories. Not all of them, but a good many of them.

I don't care what sort of "studies" exist showing WHAT -- I know from my own personal experience and from COMMON SENSE and innumerable reports through the ages of people "forgetting" things that had been traumatic. They forget because they can't emotionally and psychologically deal with them in the moment. This isn't NEWS. It's been something we've been aware of for centuries if not millennia.

[CoffeeCat]

11. I repressed all of my traumatic sexual abuse...

I am so sick and tired of people asserting that survivors of childhood sexual abuse don't EVER repress memories.

I'm here to tell you that it does happen. I was sexually abused for nearly a decade. I remembered none of it. Not one scintilla--until I was in my mid thirties.

When I began to remember the abuse, I didn't believe the flashbacks I was seeing. I had flashbacks and I recovered memories--for an entire year--before I ever sought therapy. Therefore--no overzealous therapist to blame here, folks!

Furthermore, my memories involved sex acts with other children and adults--since my abuse was centered around my involvement in child pornography. I phoned one of the children in my previously buried memories--and this person validated what I had recently remembered--but had repressed for nearly 3 decades.

The truth is--there is a substantial body of scientific evidence that supports the existence of amnesia and repressed memories in children who endure trauma.

When I initially recovered memories, I was in denial. I switched therapists four times--because I couldn't even consider that I had been sexually abused. Even though I had medical evidence from childhood that suggested sexual abuse. Even though I acted out sexually with other children in very sophisticated ways--before the age of 6--I didn't want to believe that this stuff was true. So I went into research mode--to prove that my memories were false or were a bizarre manifestation of the physical abuse perpetrated by my mother. I scoured journals, research and the latest scientific articles. The Journal of Trauma, the professional psychiatric journals and several valid research studies demonstrate irrefutable, strong evidence that amnesia for traumatic childhood events does happen.

There's a great deal out there from the False Memory brigade.

However, there is absolutely NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE FOR A "FALSE MEMORY SYNDROME". None whatsoever. Did you know that the phrase, "False Memory Syndrome" was coined by the groups' founders--who were accused of sexually abusing their daughter? The father founder is an admitted alcoholic and survivor of sexual abuse--and his own child accuses him of sexual abuse--yet, we're all supposed to believe that nothing is wrong with this family and that the victim is a tragic product of a bad therapist? Not even the founders of this organization can list a specific set of symptoms for "False Memory Syndrome." It's not a medical term; nor is it recognized by the American Psychological Association. It's a marketing device, used to legitimize the notion that a large group of people, who have all been accused of sexual abuse by their children--are innocent.

Yes, there is anecdotal evidence that some have claimed sexual abuse--then recanted. However, there is no scientific basis or no legitimate "False Memory Syndrome" that is linked to causing all of this. Recanting happens for all sorts of reasons. I can't prove that recanting of sexual abuse ALWAYS happens because of Denial Systems Syndrome (something I just made up now!)--anymore than the False Memory Syndrome people can say that recanting ALWAYS happens due to, "False Memory Syndrome."

Are there bad therapists out there? Sure. Have some therapists misled their clients into believing things that didn't happen? No doubt. However, that doesn't mean that repression or amnesia for traumatic childhood events--never happens. It does happen. It happened to me.

Contrary to Antfarm's post--Survivors should never be ridiculed by comparing them to cult members or those who see little green men--just because they heal in ways that someone finds unappealing. Many Survivors embrace group therapy and immerse themselves in the healing process. They do this to get well. Not because they enjoy spending Wednesday nights in group therapy discussing incest. It's absolutely insulting and unfair to criticize survivors for the ways in which they heal from child abuse.

I consider myself a Survivor--with a capital S. Joining a support group was an act of courage--not the weak act of a wayward cult-seeker who celebrated my victimhood. I would think that staying in denial and running away from the pain--would stoke more criticism taking responsibility for the pain and taking control of your own healing process. Furthermore, I don't consider a Survivor's suffering better or worse than suffering experienced in other life tragedies. Suffering is universal. Antfarm has harsh words for abuse survivors who behave in ways that s/he doesn't like. Does Antfarm criticize Vietnam Vets for joining support groups or when they make lifelong friends with their fellow support-group members? Does s/he compare Mothers Against Drunk Driving support group members to UFO believers because they meet every week and immerse themselves in the tragedy for a while--as part of healing from their losses? When a cancer survivor joins a support group and brings a teddy bear to a session--because she just needs to feel comforted--does Antfarm think that the cancer survivor is better or worse than an abuse survivor who does the same thing?

Antfarm's eloquent way of judging abuse victims--is odd.

Survivors do what they need to do to heal. The process is different for each person. But for God's sakes, do we have to listen to the ill-informed, self-proclaimed, know-it-all ramblings of those who judge abuse survivors for the ways in which they heal? Who the hell cares if someone soothes themselves with a teddy bear--or becomes emotionally attached to group therapy for a while?

Funny, I don't consider myself a victim, but judging from some of these posts--I'm a victim of bad therapy, horrible cult-like support groups, misleading therapists and false notions that are based on feelings and "social phenomena". Gee whiz! If I listened to this bunk, I really would be a Victim--with a capital V.

Antfarm--you say that childhood abuse is deplorable and that you feel for anyone who experienced it. However, you only support those who cope and heal in ways that you deem legitimate. In short, you don't support abuse victims. You support only your own notions and your own agenda--not victims of child abuse.

I'm tired of this backlash. It's unhelpful. I certainly don't want pity or special treatment. However, if we could avoid insults and negative generalizations--that would be nice.

[woo me with science]

12. You know,

I deleted about three paragraphs of my original comment, because I was afraid people would accuse me of being overemotional about this issue, because my sister is involved. I realize after reading your post that I should have left them in, because their absence made it sound like I was saying that it's all a big party for those involved. Don't you EVER think that I would ridicule my sister or any other person who has been victimized by Survivorship. Everything I wrote is true. My sister does cower with stuffed animals now and talk in baby voices now. She HAS lost her career and family to this endless recitation of abuse. This Movement does lure people in with promises that nothing wrong in their lives is their fault, and that following the program will lead to Healing, with a capital "H". If you read the books, you will hear promise after promise about the sweet promised land of healing that awaits. That is NOT what happens.

I cut out the paragraphs that contained my rage about what has happened to her as a result of this obsessive focus on abuse. She didn't find healing. She fell into a pit. They told her suicidal thoughts are expected, and they taught her to cut and burn herself and develop multiple "personalities." She learned to cut off from people who truly love her, and she learned to believe every sick image that ever came to her mind as gospel truth. My sister was never abused in a cult. She has lost hold of reality. She has accused so many people in our town that the doctor, the mailman, the grocery clerk, and the mortician would all have to have spent all their spare time running to our house to abuse her. She claims she has been raped thousands of times and that she was forced to give birth to babies and eat them. She claims to remember being raped as an infant in her crib, before science even says she should have a memory. She can't even hold a job anymore, this woman who used to administer a department at a major university. She used to have rich, creative, productive friendships. Now her only friends are fellow "survivors" whose lives and emotions are also a wreck. Her days are sadly predictable. One sick memory excavation after another. She claims I was with her in that pit of snakes. Guess what? I wasn't.

It's ironic. She calls herself a "Survivor" now, but her days are consumed by victimhood, wallowing in every sordid detail of these "memories" she keeps excavating. Our whole family lives in fear that she will die. She might kill herself today or tomorrow. And killing herself may be less painful for her than coming back to reality and realizing what she has done to our mother, our family, her own children, and her own life. We are praying that she comes back. And all this is because she joined this very special cult of "Survivors."

[Domitan]

14. That's really horrible

Do you think she might have some kind of condition that made her vulnerable to being propelled in this path or do you think it was caused only by her therapy experiences?

From what I read, she definitely is not on the path of healing.

[woo me with science]

19. therapy experiences

and the social group she got into as a result. She used to have a brilliant career and lots of friends and interests. She went into therapy because of some situational life problems, and her therapist immediately latched onto one instance of (mild) abuse she and and I experienced as children by a babysitter. An event neither of us had ever forgotten. Then she was referred to a support group. It exploded from there. Her life is consumed by this, and she has cut off almost everyone but people who are also "unrepressing" memories every day. I think she IS in a cult, but it's not the cult she thinks.

[Domitan]

52. Do you have any literature on the group that she's involved in

I'd like to see it as that group sounds way whacked out, utterly unlike anything that I've worked or researched in.

[RubyCat]

25. trauma in adults vs children

I'm so sorry to hear what happened to you.

I remember reading somewhere when adults experience extreme trauma, like what occurs during war or if they're the victims of torture, that in the worst case scenario, their minds break and they go insane and develop psychosis.

When children undergo extreme trauma, they don't go insane but rather they develop amnesia and block out the experience so that they can grow to adulthood and have a productive life. It's an evolutionary thing and perhaps a blessing too.

[Domitan]

13. I worked at a sexual assault centre for a few years

Yes, I've seen cases of repressed memories slowly surfacing to the conscious (no leading questions at all, mind you). Yes, people can "forget" the horrors that happened to them...but their bodies never forget. It can happen that coping mechanisms that were very successful for years begin to fail (especially during adulthood), and suffering results until healing can be done.

I don't care for false accusations, but neither do I care for knee-jerk dismissals of survivors' accounts just because they happened to be forgotten before in their lives.

[woo me with science]

17. "Their bodies never forget"

This is an endorsement of "body memories." That is the idea that memories are stored in the cells of the body that were hurt in the first place. So somebody who was thrown into a pit of snakes may someday wake in the night feeling cold and slithery, because the cells in her feet are spontaneously recalling that memory. Someoen with restless leg syndrome would have immediate evidence of another trauma. Survivors learn to interpret any body sensation as evidence of a memory, because everything in their lives becomes connected to memories of abuse.

You should see the symptom checklists out there in the Survivorship literature, that are supposed to indicate a history of sexual abuse. Every conceivable feeling or problem or ache or pain is on the list. If you are perfectionistic, you were probably sexually abused. However, if you have trouble getting motivated, you were also probably sexually abused. If you have struggled with eating healthy foods. If you dislike hot dogs or milk. If you dress alluringly. If you wear baggy clothes. If you are shy. If you are too outgoing. If you are hyperalert. If you tune things out. It goes on and on and on. It is a religious mindset. Everything becomes connected to abuse. If your throat is tight, it means someone abused you orally. If you hands are cold, you were probably locked outside or in a cold basement. It goes on and on and on.

[Domitan]

51. Hmmm

I'm not saying that all unexplained bodily discomforts or ailments stem from sexual abuse...far from it! I agree that the Survivor literature is far simplistic and not addressing the true issues.

However, I do believe that suppressed intense emotions (especially anger, hurt, and all that shit) for many reasons can later manifest into physical symptoms. For example, there's this person who has experienced chronic stress or longterm repressed anger...that person is more vulnerable to certain physical disorders or diseases.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

15. It does happen.

The love of my life, who has since passed over, had amnesia of being sexually abused as a young teen. He was 15 years old and it was his baseball mentor. An upstanding pillar of the community, of course. Years later, when he was working for this man and they were in an argument about something relating to work, the memories flooded back. He told me it was as if he never didn't remember what happened. He also recalled disassociating during the sexual act.

[Domitan]

16. Exactly

dissociation is very real.

[foreigncorrespondent]

18. Yep...

...all it takes is something to trigger*** a flashback and bang, you are right back to a time you would much rather forget. Unfortunately though, when a survivor is trying to heal, the flashbacks one will experience is actually part of the healing process.

***for those who don't understand, or refuse to understand a trigger can be the way a person might touch you, a certain smell, a certain word, etc. People go through these kinds of triggers day in and day out without a doctor being present. So if you want to say it is all bullshit, then I suggest you try and explain to me, just how the hell these things can and do happen without being put under, and without that quack around.

[lins the liberal]

20. Coming out of lurk mode on this subject

I have been a member of DU for a long time. I seldom post, but this subject has brought me out of lurk mode.

Yes, I have recovered memories. First, just how are we to obtain physical evidence of something that happened many years ago? Second, most of us spend a lot of time, not wallowing in the memories themselves, but wallowing in thoughts of...did it really happen and thinking of all the reasons we might be making this stuff up. I did it over and over and over again. I went through many times of telling myself I must just be crazy, I must be making it all up. I tried to get on with life. It didn't work. The emotional pain only got worse.

So those of you who do not believe it is possible to dissociate/repress memories of abuse...just how would you suggest we deal with them? Maybe we should just suicide ourselves and be done with it. What would you do if something triggered a flash back of abuse? And the more you told yourself it couldn't possibly be true...the more the emotional pain increased? Would you make the choice to consider that yes, it is probably true, or would you continue to deny until the only way out of the pain was suicide? Of course if we all just offed ourselves then the rest of you would not have to deal with the possibility that there are people in this world who are capable of committing horrendous abuse on young innocent children....abuse many of you cannot even imagine.

[woo me with science]

23. no

This is a familiar response from Survivors, the insinuation that anybody who doubts repression of massive, brutal sexual abuse over years or the existence of widespread Satanic cults somehow doesn't believe in child abuse at all. It is a cheap, unfair argument.

This garbage therapy is as damaging as real child abuse, when measured in terms of the people and families it destroys.

There is research being done now about what therapies are effective for abuse. For example, "rage work" in therapy (tearing up phone books, screaming, raging at the "abusers") only makes people angrier and more distressed, yet this remains a staple of "Survivorship" therapy. There is this platitude about getting worse before you get better, but I don't think there is much evidence that people actually get better. My sister is losing everything.

Your question, "What do we do now?" is so important. I worry about how my sister will ever come back to reality. There are therapists who work with people who have been victimized by this Movement. I would imagine it is something like deprogramming from a cult, untying your brain from an obsessive focus on abuse. Refocusing on building a real life.

[woo me with science]

26. Worrying that the memories aren't real

or that you are crazy and making everything up is very, very common among Survivors. The books by therapists describe cycles of intense "denial" as though they should be normal. I know it is hard to go there, but have you considered that the worries are so intense and persistent, because there is something to them?

[foreigncorrespondent]

29. Yep!

I can remember one night talking to Sapphocrat about a lot of stuff and saying to her that some times it just feels so surreal that I question myself whether I am making this stuff up in my head or not. And it is quite common for survivors of all sorts of abuse to experience.

[bush_is_wacko]

60. It does happen. but sometimes those memories are gone forever...

Years ago I was told by a gyno that I had scarring around my cervix. I had never had children and had never been diagnosed with a STD so I was a little perplexed how I could have cervical scarring. I have also been told by my parents that I had an abusive babysitter when I was a small child. My mother took me out of there as soon as she realized I was being abused. I have seen a psychiatrist bout this because my ONLY memory of this babysitter is of being locked in some type of "dog kennel." I cannot remember the woman's face or the face of her children despite the fact my mother says I was old enough to remember her and I played with her children.

All I can say is that I have an emotional blockage over this woman and I apparently had a scarred cervix. I had to have a hysterectomy years ago for several very valid reasons so I no longer carry that evidence with me and I had two kids so I can't imagine that would have been much evidence anyway after those births.

I saw the psychiatrist for about six months, but I still only recovered that one memory, no faces, just being locked in a dark "kennel" and children taunting me on the other side. I am calling it a "kennel" just because that is what it feels like to me in my memory. It is dark and small and there are little round holes cut into the side for air, I guess. The psychiatrist did try and convince me to work this issue out, but, I feel like I am fine. I function pretty well. Don't seem to have any sexual dysfunctions and I have a normal family life and a husband. The abuse could have occurred only on a limited basis so I may not be repressing anything at all but my parents find it odd I cannot remember this family though. I apparently developed bed wetting habits and panic attacks as a result and the final straw was my mother coming to pick me up and finding me crying so hard I couldn't catch my breath, on a stool in the corner devoid of clothes from the waist down because the babysitter told her I had wet my pants and was old enough to know better. This should give you some clue as to the fact I wasn't a baby. I guess I was around kindergarten or first grade from what my mom says. I don't blame my parents for leaving me there. I can't even remember what happened so I can't imagine they are at fault here especially since they have repeatedly asked me about it and offered psychiatric help.

Another thing my parents found odd was my inability to go back to work after my children were born. I was just adamant that I raise my kids and not some babysitter. All the women in my family have worked most of their lives but I remained a stay at home mom until my children were able to stay at home on their own without a babysitter. My mother argued with me endlessly that I was putting myself in a terrible position if something ever happened to my husband and she thought I was being overprotective, blah, blah, blah. I have worked for several years now and I still think the sacrifice of money was well worth being able to know my kids were not abused by anyone.

Anyway, just thought I'd add that to the mix here because it seems to fit in with the recovered memory theme.

[woo me with science]

21. Because it becomes a religion and a way of thinking

that becomes habit and part of you. Yes, it starts to happen day in and day out. It starts because you want so much to trust this professional who is caring and claims to understand the way to Healing. You get practice and reinforcement interpreting these things in therapy, and then you carry it with you outside the therapy room. Your mind gets tuned to look for "triggers" and evidence of abuse. If you spend every day thinking about abuse, your mind naturally gets hyperattuned to that topic and keeps producing more evidence. It is like trying not to think of an elephant. Everything around you gets connected to it. This is my sister's whole world now, and she is in agony. The memories come day after day after day, sicker and more bizarre. They are not realistic, but they make perfect sense to her. None of these "triggers" existed for her before therapy. Only after she sought help did she become a walking bundle of "triggers."

[lins the liberal]

22. It doesn't become a way of thinking.

That is the last thing in the world we want. As I stated earlier, we don't want to think about it. Why would anyone need a professional to interpret anything? The memory needs no interpretation. We want to run from it as hard and as fast as we can.

I would suggest that you just consider that maybe your sister is telling the truth.

[woo me with science]

24. Did you read my description of what she is remembering?

I am sorry if you are a Survivor. I really do hope you are doing better than she is.

[lins the liberal]

27. you say you are sorry IF I am a survivor

You say you are sorry IF I am a survivor. Well, I cannot offer you solid proof that I am a sexual abuse survivor. My question is, exactly what kind of proof would you need to believe it? If you need physical/DNA proof before believing, then you will only believe a few current cases. Where the child has disclosed immediately what happened and where the parent has the knowledge and ability to know that the child needs to be examined by an expert immediately.

I even have problems believing some of the SRA abuse I have read about. Also, I do not believe that each and every recovered memory is 100% factually correct. A child does not have the experience to always correctly understand what is happening to them. However, what I do believe is that the vast majority of people who have recovered memories are telling the truth as they remember it. Some sort of sexual abuse did happen although maybe not entirely the way the person remembers it.

Again, I am not saying to believe your sister. But please just consider...what if what she is telling is based on the truth, but maybe with some details that aren't totally correct?

Have you read as much about recovered memories being true as you have read discounting them? Or have you spent most of your energy looking for the articles that agree with what you believe?

One reason survivors tend to become friends with other survivors is because other survivors are almost the only people who have a clue as to what they are going through. Another survivor will understand if you suddenly have to leave a restaurant or shopping mall because of a panic attack. Another survivor will understand if you make plans to do something with her and on the day you plan to do it you are experiencing so much anxiety or depression that it is impossible for you to do anything.

[woo me with science]

32. Which details do you think

might be inaccurate? A few of the satanic rituals? Maybe only the blood drinking ones? Only the snake pit? How about the forced abortions, for which there has never been any medical evidence. Maybe it is the details of the associations of our parents with cultists and pornographers and murderers? How about the dozens of different molesters in multiple different cities growing up. Is that an error in detail? Do you mean the rapes in early infancy that she remembers with clear detail? The satanic programming? The being a sex slave?

I can't make you hear me, and I can't really even try. I didn't post these things for Survivors already in the repressed memory religion. I know you won't be influenced by a message board. It is more to describe for others what is happening to my sister and maybe make someone aware of the risks they face in therapy these days, because of the Believers in repressed memories.

[CoffeeCat]

37. "believers of repressed memories"...

Again, you are insinuating that repressed memories never happen.

They do happen.

I've recounted that I got corroboration, from a witness who was there, regarding a few of my memories.

Do you understand? I didn't remember ANY of that abuse, until I was in my mid-thirties. I remembered, and it was very traumatic. This was without the aid of a therapist. The memory was corroborated by someone. Furthermore, my medical records demonstrate evidence consistent with sexual abuse.

Can you just accept that people sometimes have delayed recall of abuse?

Why is that so difficult for you?

[woo me with science]

39. Please read what I wrote above

People can and do forget specific events. That is not the same thing as massive repression of years of abuse.

[CoffeeCat]

40. You said,

"People can and do forget specific events. That is not the same thing as massive repression of years of abuse."

I repressed a multitude of abuse incidents that spanned a decade. I remembered none of it until I was 35.

Again, I called one of the people in my memories--and this person verified that what I remembered was true.

Repression like this happens.

For some reason, it's not enough for you to deny your sister's process--you insist that no one else in the entire universe has ever repressed years of abuse.

[woo me with science]

42. Yes,

because these are dangerous and destructive beliefs. It is not a matter of opinion; science speaks to it. People are dying and suffering because of it. I am vehement about this, like others got vehement about lobotomies in the fifties. It is malpractice, and it destroys people. People need to be educated about it, so they can protect themselves.

Believe it or not, I have great compassion for your experience as a Survivor. I do believe that you have been through hell. We only differ in understanding why that is.

[CoffeeCat]

49. Let me put it this way...

I've always remembered the following events:
--My father's friend (a police officer) taking my picture, while I was naked, with other children who were unclothed.
--My father telling me, "I can't get you out now! You have to keep doing this!" When I screamed, cried and threw myself on the floor he said, "Do you want mommy and daddy to go to jail, is that what you want?"
--Acting out sophisticated sex acts with children. When I was six years old, I knew about ejaculation and I told another child, "I think you're supposed to put yourself in my mouth, until you go to the bathroom."

Again, I've vividly remembered these things since the second they happened.

Many of my recovered memories fit with these memories mentioned above.

Furthermore, I obtained my medical records, which show almost a dozen hospitalizations (before the age of 10) for severe bladder infections. Examinations found "urethral damage" which is consistent with sexual abuse. Growing up, my parents lied about the reasons for these hospitalizations.

I suppose my father having an affair with a 15-year old when he was 35 and married to my mother, means nothing also. No pedophile behavior here!

I suppose when my father said, "I can't get you out now!"--he was referring to my membership in the Sesame Street Fan Club. Is that it?

Antfarm, you're vehement, and so am I. You insist that repression doesn't EVER happen and I understand you're passionate about those opinions. But believing something really, really vehemently--does not make it so. You can't speak for every survivor, or the entire psychiatric and psychological community--only armed with opinions. You can't insist--with any credibility--that repressed memories of abuse don't happen when you've got people telling you that it happened to them.

I will not be made to feel crazy or ashamed or reckless for the way I coped with sexual abuse as a child! You people are destructive and unhealthy.

I suffered Antfarm because of sexual abuse--not because of bad therapy. I waited an entire year before I sought therapy. I've never recovered a memory in my therapists' office.

You're right. People do need to be educated--that repression does happen--even if the False Memory Syndrome repeatedly claims otherwise.

Furthermore, science does NOT speak to the False Memory Syndrome, as you said. Anecdotal evidence of survivors recanting--is all you have. There is no science that corroborates what you are saying. There is no evidence of a "False Memory Syndrome" and the psychological and scientific communities don't recognize it as a real, medical syndrome.

Families and lives have been destroyed Antfarm. They've been destroyed because of perpetrators who hide behind the denial-based, hucksters in the False Memory Syndrome who enable pedophiles and molesters by insisting that repression NEVER, EVER happens. Survivors suffer even more, when their perpetrators find a safe haven with others who tow the line for these cowardly thugs.

Sad. Really sad.

[Llewlladdwr]

41. Corroboration from one person....

out of the dozens or hundreds you claimed were involved. Anyone else backing up your story? Any physical proof of what happened? You know, like maybe an example of the child pornography you were forced into making? Not looking to add to anyone's pain here, but lots of good, innocent families have been destroyed by the Survivor movement.

And no, I don't accept that people can have a 'delayed' recall of abuse. I believe it's possible to decide not to dwell on memories of abuse. I don't believe it's possible to 'forget' them in the sense Survivors claim.

[woo me with science]

44. You are right that confirmation

has turned out to be a huge issue in debunking the myth of repressed memory. When people started going back and looking at the old studies and saw what was being accepted as confirmation, a lot of the "proof" just fell apart. The studies read like college courses on logic (extrapolating confirmation of one detail to confirmation of the entire abuse narrative, using other Survivors to confirm, etc.)

[foreigncorrespondent]

28. Ummm....

...when I started experiencing flashbacks, I was';t in the care of a professional. Did you not understand what I said?

Usually when the flashback begin for people that is when they will seek out the help of a professional. Guess what? I didn't. I dealt with them on my own, and with the love, support, and understanding of Sapphocrat.

As for triggers, I have experienced them while talking on the phone. I have experienced them while making love to my partner. I have experienced them while having a drink. I have experienced them while driving down the road. I have experienced them while sleeping. I have experienced them from smelling a certain scent. And this list could go on, but the point I am making here is simply, at no time while experiencing these flashbacks, has there ever been a professional around.

Don't try and say this is just all wishful thinking on the part of a survivor because it really isn't. Abuse happen, and with that abuse comes many years of hurt, heartache, anger, depression, and whole range of other things.

It is painfully obvious to this survivor that you have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about.

[CoffeeCat]

30. Antfarm, do you realize...

...that you are spouting off dogma from a movement that has no scientific credibility?

You are stating talking points from the False Memory System handbook--as if these points are hard facts.

You discredit and criticize your sister for being part of a "Movement", when you are knee deep in your own "Movement" that has slowly eroded in credibility. The longer these False Memory Syndrome members are out there--the more their opinions are debunked. That's all it is--is opinion from a bunch of people who've been accused of incest.

There is a mountain of glaring disinformation, exaggerations and generalizations that have no basis in fact--in your posts.

I'll take one small point you made-- about survivor check lists. Every check list I've seen--clearly states that all of these "symptoms" can be caused by other things. Not just sexual abuse. There are disclaimers on all of this stuff. You are purposely demonizing your sister's process with a vengeance. You see what you want to see.

You've got the whole "Movement" organized in your own head--as something that is unrecognizable to me--and I've been healing from sexual abuse for three years. Your generalizations about therapists, survivors, methods of treatment and healing in general--are not based in fact. It's all mantra from the False Memory Syndrome.

You are firmly entrenched in the flimsy ramblings of a group whose members have all been accused of sexual abuse. If you really cared about the truth, you'd speak with professionals or read books about survivors, instead of filling your head with information that supports your claim (and probably your parents claim) that nothing happened in your family. It's all your sister, and her bad therapy and her awful support group. Right?

My recovered memories have been corroborated by a third party. There's no doubt that repression happens. The science and the research supporting repression is out there--if you care to step away from the talking points of the False Memory Syndrome brigade for five seconds.

[woo me with science]

31. so do you believe

that what my sister is recalling is accurate? Did you read what I described?

[CoffeeCat]

35. I think....

you are hyper-focused on the most sensational, outrageous aspects of your sister's healing--in a very deliberate attempt to discredit her entire process and any claim that she may have about childhood abuse.

That's what I think.

Your sister probably experienced a very intense, initial period of memory recovery. The same thing happened to me. I had so many emotions and flashbacks flying at me. It took my brain a while to organize it all.

If you spoke with a reputable therapist who truly helps survivors--you would understand that sometimes recovering memories is a messy, chaotic process.

I'll share something that you might find a bit loony. When I first began recovering memories (without the aid of a therapist), I constantly saw flashbacks of a black spider. These flashbacks were accompanied by intense sadness and feelings of fear and wretched loneliness. It was just awful. After I found a therapist, I said to him, "What is going on? Did they put a spider on me? Was I abused with spiders?"

I divulged the spider flashbacks to my brother and he reminded me of a large, black spider stuffed animal that I used to sleep with and carry around me with me all of the time. It went everywhere with me. I forgot about the spider until my brother reminded me. I felt like an emotional avalanche fell on me. I then remembered how I used to hug the spider stuffed animal during the night! I remembered that I thought it protected me somehow. I was finally able to purge those feelings of sadness, despair and lost hope. The spider flashbacks immediately stopped.

That's just one minuscule aspect of my journey in recovering memories.

Sometimes memories emerge as fuzzy representations like that. It can be odd--and it can be confusing. However, a ten-minute conversation with a professional, trained therapist who helps survivors--will tell you that recovered memories are bits and pieces sometimes. No one in the Survivor community--that I've met--insists that all memories and flashbacks are accurate, narrative representations of hard-based fact.

However, your sister's pain, and her process means something. Obviously, something happened to your sister.

Let me ask you a question--you seem so stuck on the scintillating, most unbelievable aspects of her healing process and her claims. Are you saying that she was absolutely never sexually abused and that nothing ever happened to her? If so, how do you know?

I remember my sister doing the same thing to me. She claimed she was concern that I was hallucinating about spiders. She ignored the totality of my claims and the facts about the healing process. I initially told her that a friend of the family sexually abused me. Then, I told her about the memories of our father. My sister accused me of changing my story. I imagine she's on some messageboard somewhere--spouting off about her poor sister who destroyed the family with wild, contradicting claims of abuse that involve spiders.

I have a brother who believes me and he tells me that my parents and my sister spend a great deal of time--lamenting about their delusional daughter/sister who made false accusations and continues to suffer at the hand of bad therapists. They hang on every sensational bit of my recovery. That's why I stopped sharing any of it. My recovery became a diversion for them--a way for them to take the focus off the dysfunctional mess that is our family and focus on a scapegoat.

I grew up in an upper middle class family. We looked perfect. We attended church every Sunday. Everyone looked happy and shiny. The truth was--it was a very sick system. Problems were ignored. There was an unspoken "no talk" rule. It was all about denial. My recovery blew a hole in all of that. It upset the role I was supposed to play--holding in all of the pain. I refused to play that role in our family, so now they've invented a new one for me--to keep the family denial system going. I'm now the "identified patient".

That's what I'm dealing with. My sister behaves like a child trying still trying to please her mommy and daddy--while she judges and pontificates about my flawed recovery. She believes that my parents' approval means that she's a good girl. Their approval now is dependent upon not believing me. The abusers, once again, have won. Denial is so much easier.

I don't know what is true, or what is not true in your family. My experience with my family is my own. However, red flags go up when I see a sibling spouting off the FMS dogma and loads of disinformation about recovery--while denying that any problem exists at all.

Something happened to your sister and I wish we could all hear her story.

[woo me with science]

38. *sigh*

More talk about my overfocusing on details. As though what she is reporting are reasonable events with little unrealistic details sprinkled in here and there. No, it is a constant, ever-expanding, and ever intensifying catalogue of outrages and Satanic abuses that reads like a B horror movie. Only it's very real to her, which is why she is falling apart, emotionally and physically. I am not exaggerating or overfocusing on anything, and I think you know that very well. I also believe that somewhere deep inside, a part of you realizes that this is not "Healing."

I am sure your family does spend a lot of time in grief over what has happened to you. If they are anything like mine, they miss you very much, and they are worried about you.

[secular_warrior]

45. Antfarm, keep up the good fight, my friend

I completely agree with everything you are saying.

Thank Sigmund fucking Freud for the pseudo-scientific fairytale known as modern psychology.

We are living in the dark ages of psychology, where the fantasy based people control our realities.

One has to wonder how many good, innocent people have to be destroyed before things change.

One day soon (behavioral genetics is still in it's infancy, and already we know so much), hard logic will take over, and psychology will become a real science - instead of the Oprah-esque, weepy, sick, dangerous, blame-fest, cult it is today.

[woo me with science]

54. Thank you very much, Secular Warrior

It really is depressing, isn't it?

[woo me with science]

55. p.s.

Please do keep spreading the word. I have to stop somewhere, because I know Believers need to have the last word. But this thread really is not for them. It is for anyone who is considering therapy or who has genuinely been abused and needs help.

[CoffeeCat]

61. You are behaving in an abusive manner...

Antfarm said:
"Believers need to have the last world. But this thread really is not for them. It is for anyone who is considering therapy or WHO HAS GENUINELY BEEN ABUSED AND NEEDS HELP."

You're saying that, because I am a "Believer" in repressed memories that I haven't been "genuinely abused."

You are an abusive, destructive, passive-aggressive person.

Many people in this discussion have shared real stories of abuse, and you indirectly retort by categorizing them as not being "genuinely abused."

At this point, you're just trying to hurt people. If there's one thing I have learned from therapy, it's how to spot abusive people and when to walk away.

You're not a healthy person.

[woo me with science]

63. I guess I should have expected

that I would be added to the list of abusers sooner or later.

[secular_warrior]

59. Yes. Regarding your sister -

I don't have any specific experience with your situation, but Freudian psychology is all the same: it is based on immaturity, illogic, weakness and fantasy. You cannot play into this. You must combat it with logic, maturity, strength and reality.

Being nice and understanding alone won't work. Finesse without strength doesn't work in these situations.

You need to gather evidence (like a scientist), build a case (like a lawyer) and convince her closest friends/family (like a politician) that she is being duped. The final step is to overwhelm her (like a swat team) with this evidence - to confront her in a firm manner, and give her an ultimatum. You must do whatever it takes to shake her belief in this fairytale. Force her to snap out of it - or risk losing her.

[woo me with science]

68. We are working on

building a case. One of my brothers and I are the only family members she will talk to anymore, because we have been very careful about what we say. Documenting the information is important to me right now, as well as keeping her in sight so we know she is still alive. I don't know what will happen in the future. I am desperately watching the research on returners and retractors, hoping for some clue about what works. I understand what you mean about confronting, and it may come to that when all other options fail. Right now I am not yet ready to give up my sister.

[Catherine Vincent]

48. I think you need to read her post when she discuss her mother and father.

I'll try and find it for you.

[BigMcLargehuge]

71. There was an episode of Scientific American Frontiers on tonight

that dealt with memories and in one segment Alan Alda (the host) was a participant in a picnic, then later looked at 20 pictures of a similar picnic. He was asked several questions about things that occured either in the actual picnic or in the pictures of the picnic.

In several cases he "remembered" events (like a woman filing her nails or drinking bottled water) as occuring at the actual picnic where they occured actualy in the pictures of the picnic.

The point was that his brain associated the images from the pictures of the picnic with the memories of the picnic itself. As if his mind could not take in every single detail (and whose can?) and when presented with the pictures, lumped them together.

There are stories of UFO abductees who all share extremely similar characteristics with regard to their supposed abductee experience, but there is a relatively common suggestion that these people are remembering accounts about which they read, or watched in television, as if they were their own memories.

Guys like Ted Gunderson feed on the stories of alleged SRA survivors and can throw entire towns into turmoil looking for the underground satanic cult responsible for abuse that is unsubstantiated and often relies on the "repressed memories" of one person. There is a whole sub-industry of people who are attached to certain extreme-right churches who travel the country assisting police departments in looking for Satanic Ritual Abuse (or other variants of group-based child abuse).

[woo me with science]

74. Great post...thanks.

Someone did a large-scale survey of therapists not too long ago, in which some ridiculously high percentage of them agreed with the statement that the mind records memories like a tape recorder, allowing them to be retrieved accurately later. These are people who have supposedly gone through graduate school, and yet they have been taught nothing about the basic mechanisms of memory.

My sister is actually more in the crystals and meditation subgroup. But I agree with you that Survivorship is particularly strong in right wing fundamentalist churches. There is a whole industry of Theophostic counseling that is thriving on the misery of Survivors.

Thanks for a great post. And congratulations on the new little BigMcLargeHuge!

[Eloriel]

75. YOU need to get some help

You are losing your ability to sort things out for yourself and be objective about things OTHER than your sister. You sound like a broken record and have apparently lost the ability to discuss anything related to this issue without it focusing on you and your sister.

You should probably try to find a therapist who is familiar with both recovered memories and the False Memory Syndrome Foundation and who will remain technically agnostic about your sister in all regards.

You're far too enmeshed with this, far too locked onto YOUR picture of what must have / is happening, and you're not helping anyone, including yourself. Basically, YOU'RE the one who sounds obsessed, and that's not healthy.

[Misunderestimator]

36. I can personally attest to that fact.

And not just sexual abuse but physical and emotional abuse... it all started coming back to me after college, and through therapy. And for anyone who says that the memories may have been created by my therapist... I confronted the two people who were the perpetrators and they both admitted to it, and apologized for it, and agreed with my memories of it.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

43. Look up the work of Dr. Susan Loftus or Daniel Schacter for real FACTS

There is no hard scientific evidence that repressed memories (requiring specialized techniques to reveal them) are a reliable phenomena.

Sorry, I know there's a lot of people holding on to the notion that they suffered repressed memories of abuse, but there's just no way of getting around the fallacies of memory that the public seems to foster. This isn't to say that these individuals didn't suffer abuse or believe earnestly that they suffered abuse...it's just a FACT that the process used to recover repressed memories is HIGHLY SUSPECT given what is known about human memory processes.

For informed reading about the MANIPULATION OF MEMORY and SUGGESTION'S EFFECT ON MEMORY RECALL, I would encourage sensible DU'er to look into the WELL-REGARDED scientific work of Daniel Schacter, Ph.D. (Full Professor of Psychology at HARVARD) and Susan Loftus, Ph.D. (Full Professor of Psychology at UC). Schacter in particular has a wonderful review article from a few years back in the American Psychologist entited, "The Seven Sins of Memory." And, Loftus is well known for her work on the fallacy of eyewitness testimony and the FACT that memory is a RECONSTRUCTIVE PROCESS affected by each recall and external suggestion.

JB

[lins the liberal]

46. try reading research from the other side

Abstract: "This study provides evidence that some adults who claim to have recovered memories of sexual abuse recall actual events that occurred in childhood. One hundred twenty-nine women with documented histories of sexual victimization in childhood were interviewed and asked about abuse history. Seventeen years following the initial report of the abuse, 80 of the women recalled the victimization. One in 10 women (16% of those who recalled the abuse) reported that at some time in the past they had forgotten about the abuse. Those with a prior period of forgetting – the women with 'recovered memories' – were younger at the time of abuse and were less likely to have received support from their mothers than the women who reported that they had always remembered their victimization. The women who had recovered memories and those who had always remembered had the same number of discrepancies when their accounts of the abuse were compared to the reports from the early 1970's."
http://www.jimhopper.com/memory/#table

[woo me with science]

62. I mentioned this study earlier.

It has methodological problems. The most important one is here: "Those with a prior period of forgetting – the women with 'recovered memories' – were younger at the time of abuse..."

I think it is this study that had a number of VERY young children in their sample, so young that they should not have been expected to remember the abuse anyway, because their brains were not sufficiently developed to encode it. Classifying their lack of memory for the events as "repression" was unwarranted and led to misleading results.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

65. Studies of this sort suffer from retrospective bias, which is problematic

Self-report studies are always fraught with methodological problems, such as retrospective bias and lack of corroborating evidence.

I'm just coming from this issue as a memory researcher with a cognitive neuroscience background and interest in Alzheimer's disease. We are just starting to learn about the normal processes of memory, and from a standpoint of normal memory processes...we KNOW FOR A FACT that memory is reconstructive and mutable. As such, memories are VERY amenable to suggestion and it is this FACT that bothers me about the report of "repressed memory" phenomena.

Additionally, trauma as a rule tends to STRENGTHEN MEMORIES (e.g., PTSD, Acute Stress Reactions, etc.) not force them into the "subconscious" to be revealed 20-30 years later. Significant trauma is one of the few environmental factors that will foster "photographic-like" memories.

JB

[woo me with science]

69. excellent points nt

[woo me with science]

47. Thank you

Poor training of therapists is a huge part of this. Hack schools are churning out therapists with no science background whatsoever. That is why the movement is steeped in junk science, pseudoscientific concepts like body memories and energy fields. If you have never studied how memory and the brain actually work, all of it can sound very convincing.

[KittyWampus]

53. Antfarm, You Obviosuly Are On A Crusade Here. Just Because

your sister went through whatever doesn't mean that her situation is typical and can even remotely apply to others.

You have a bias on this subject and will only consider evidence that fits into what you have already decided is TRUTH.

The website I linked to in the OP is VERY levelheaded.

Your posts throughout this thread indicate how unreasoned your approach really is.

I am actually shocked this thread is still even going. It sank after I posted it yesterday.

[Misunderestimator]

56. Perhaps certain "processes" do not work... or produce incorrect results...

but it does NOT mean that repressed memories of abuse do not exist. I know they do... I had them. And it was corroborated by the people I remember abusing me when I confronted them.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

67. And how did these "repressed memories" come to light?

What process allowed you to access these "repressed memories" of abuse?

JB

[Misunderestimator]

70. I was in therapy... and coincidentally on my way to an appointment

in NYC riding a bus... at one stop a man got on with his young child yelling at her... At one point he took his belt off and starting to use it on her when some bystanders stopped him... That seemed to be my trigger, and a lot of it came crashing back at me right then. I talked it out with the therapist and over some time remembered a lot more. I confronted the people involved shortly after and my memories were confirmed.

Why did you put quotes around "repressed memories?" Was that because you don't believe me? (As if I don't know.)

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

72. I'm a scientist, so I try very hard to have no agenda.

The quotes are there because I don't know if the term, "repressed memories," is very well operationalized or a reproducable, reliable, and valid phenomenon.

In cases, such as yours, where an environmental trigger prompted early memories I can buy more than those which have to be "pulled" from the person with the aid of suggestion (e.g., hypnotism, regression, etc.). Memory recall can be tied to triggers, often olfactory or visual, but that's not to say that these triggers are allowing access to "repressed memories". True "repression" (if it even exists) would suggest that in the presence of a salient trigger the associated memory would still not be accessible. So, in your case, the image of an abusive situation WOULD NOT trigger memories of your own abuse if the memory were truely "repressed".

JB

[Misunderestimator]

73. I don't think we can narrowly define repression in that way

The memories did not exist to me until I was in my early twenties, then they did exist. For the period of time they did not exist, they were repressed, hidden.

I will agree that there is probably a lot of malpractice going on in dealing with "repressed memories"... my point is only that they do exist.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. Puts on galoshes to wade into another debate replete with agendas...

Against my better judgement.

Here's my take on this whole thing: First off, sexual abuse of kids DOES happen.. (which is why I will never leave mine alone in a church.) Clearly some people were sexually abused as kids. Maybe even some folks repressed memories and recovered them later. Certainly, I'm not in any position to judge other people's individual stories and whether they are "true" or not.

However, I DO know several examples of people who fell in with the Recovered Memory crowd in the late 1980s early 1990s, and some of the allegations antfarm has made do seem to ring true- to me. While maybe these days statements such as "if you have an eating disorder, you were most likely sexually abused" may come with disclaimers, back in those days, at least, they didn't. I have watched people make allegations at their family members that are physically impossible to have been true.

Where does the truth lie? I don't know. If you buy 100% of what one side is saying, no families experience abuse, everyone is innocent who is accused, and lots of people are making stuff out of whole cloth. However, if you buy 100% of what the other side is saying, this country has an absolutely unimaginable network of just the weirdest kind of shit going on involving kids- ritualized satanic abuse with or without aliens involved, that sort of thing. Clearly, some -lots- of people are "recovering" memories that there is simply no way on Earth took place.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the muddled middle. Some people have dredged up memories of real, awful things that took place in their childhood, and I'm certain some abusers have taken up the FMS banner as cover. I feel for those victims, just like I feel for anyone who suffered horrific abuse as a child- and I would never want to diminish their suffering or belittle their experiences. However- and this, to me, is undeniable- some people have "recovered" memories that clearly didn't happen, and some therapists and other members of this movement have behaved in ways that I consider less than ethical or at least less than professional or scientific. When you have tons of people being told that -literally- the problems in their lives are not their fault or even problems, but results of abuse that probably happened, we just need to dig up the memories you have a recipie for disaster and for the needless tearing apart of families.

And the stuff about the insular world of some survivor communities rings true, too. Certainly, it would make sense for people who have been through a common terrible experience to bond together and even adopt something of a "you just don't understand" tack with folks who haven't had the experience. However, the cult-like behavior of some of these groups can't, in my mind, be denied. To me it strikes me as a similar situation to some 12 step groups. I'm not going to debate the merits of the 12 step philosophy; I know many people who would not be alive today were it not for AA and similar programs. Yet, to my mind, it is undeniable that for some folks 12 step arrangements develop into a cultish atmosphere where any deviation from the groupthink is not permitted. I think red flags should go up any time you have a situation where dissent from core principles ("if you think you may have been abused, you were") is not permitted in any form. Obviously this issue raises strong emotions but I don't think anyone- genuine survivors as well as others- should be terribly surprised that folks would express incredulity at extreme allegations made several decades after the fact... for which there is often no physical evidence whatsoever. Obviously, such things would be hard for others to believe-which doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it doesn't mean it did, either.

[woo me with science]

58. Beautiful post. Thanks.

I appreciate the conciliatory language and attempt to make a bridge between the two sides, which is desperately needed. People do shore up their barricades and use their talking points when the stakes on this are so high. They don't listen to each other. I know those who believe in repressed memories are as passionate about it as I am, because their perception is just like mine--that something terribly critical is at stake.

I have to reiterate, though, that this controversy can only be solved through science. And I think (not feel....think) that the weight of existing research now debunks repression. Many times people who claim to have read the research actually haven't. Or maybe they have, but they don't have any clue how to evaluate its merits. People can throw up studies all day long, but not all studies are equal. There are devastating methodological critiques now of much of the Survivorship literature. The vast majority of scientists and researchers at major universities don't believe in repression anymore. That was the point of my original post. We have to have a common ground on which to evaluate this stuff. Science is that ground. We have to be able to talk to each other on that basis.

[Warren DeMontague]

66. I'm all for science. Absolutely.

I'm familiar enough with at least the seminal pieces of literature on the issue to know that, yes, at least originally the thesis amounted to "if you have any number of a laundry list of issues in your life, you were probably sexually abused"
I personally know people who were told this, and have witnessed the havoc it caused in their lives.

One would imagine, or hope at least, that anyone really committed to this issue- from any "side"- would be in favor of more verifiable, unchallengeable evidence-- one way or the other.

[bush_is_wacko]

64. I guess I would go with this happy medium. See post #60 above

I have a "repressed" memory that has "evidence" but I can't recall enough details and I don't feel "broken." I lack any eating disorders other than an addiction to chocolate. I'm not over or under weight, just normal. But I do have a problem with anorexics. I have ALWAYS had this problem with them because one of my family members has the disease and she is EXTREMELY manipulative. I believe there are rings/bands of abusers though. Something happened to me as a kid, yet I've avoided all the "typical" pitfalls surrounding this issue. I guess I was sexually active at an early age, but not EXTREME given the stories I see all the time. I have been married and sexually exclusive for over twenty years. Nothing fits the mold I have seen created with regard to this. I tend to be an overprotective Mom, but have always been a "favorite" mom of my kids friends and I have no other dysfunctions that I can name. I am a smoker, if that means anything and I can't seem to quit, but that is a "family" problem more than anything.