I am leaving DU.......Goodby to my friends and vets !

[vetwife]

I am so tired of the military bashing here at DU. Most of you know I have done radio and TV and C-Span promoting our veterans and appreciating our military. I cannot or will not be a part of all of the threads that trash our men and women in uniform. Many of you have become close and I have appreciated you and for the vets on here, I say again Welcome Home and I will continue to advocate and fight the good fight.

For those who have accused our men and women in uniform of being nothing more than war criminals...I feel sorry that you do not appreciate the sacrafices. The warrior and the policy makers are not one and the same. I have written an article that I plan on sending far and wide. I hope you read it.

If any of you ever want to win another election, I suggest you read the article. I suggest you Thank a Vet.

My husband and me when C-Span visited
Author of Enviromental Toxins Don Rosenblum and me regarding the effects of such. My trip to Washington DC on behalf of our veterans. VA headquarters


work I did with Max cleland regarding veteran issues.

Dinner with Tipper and Al Gore in 2000

I salute the brave men and women who are facing horror everyday.
I honor our Fallen and I thank our veterans.

...An honor by C-Span I appreciated !

The article I wrote about our troops and Veterans.

This is an article I wrote and want to share it here.

Did you thank a Veteran today?

Did you kiss your children today and touch their tiny faces as they
ran for the school bus? Thank a Veteran. For without their sacrafice of wars past, this would not have been possible.

Did you take a loved one out to a movie or dinner and watch the sunset
and then stop for a milkshake or sundae to sit and freely talk about plans and the future? If you did, thank a Veteran...His blood paid for the freedom for you to do so.

Did you openly express your discontent with policy makers and have a debate and discussion about our changing world without fear of being shot or locked away? If you did, thank a Vet. That troop insured your freedom to do so in this United States of America.

Did you go to work or drive anyplace that you wanted today? If you did,
Thank a Veteran. He or she has weathered storms, monsoons, raging battles, firefights and trauma, just so you have that freedom.

Did you thank a Veteran today for living in Freedom?
If not....you have taken you freedoms for granted while others cared enough to pay the price for your ingratitude. Make it right and thank a Veteran. You are free. You live free and you will die free as long as we have the Fighting men and women to protect this nation.

God bless the USA and God Bless our men and women who bear and who have borne the battle, as this American honors and thanks you.
How do we repay you? Honor and Thanks is a good start !


Amanda L. Kato
a proud Vetwife

[FreedomAngel82]

1. Who's bashing the military?

:shrug: I don't get that. Nice picture of Mr. Cleland though. I think he's great! :loveya:

[Journeyman]

33. Try this thread for a start. . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1206585

Iraq hero joins hallowed group (First Medal of Honor award of the war)

When people ridicule and treat with disdain a posthumous Medal of Honor recipient, and feel called upon to find fault with his family's pride, they cannot then claim later -- when it's convenient -- that they "support the troops." Not everyone was so rude, of course, but there were a substantial number.

[Bouncy Ball]

52. Well, I just read through that whole thing

and if that's the worst you can come up with, move it along.

People shared their opinions. I'd never comment on the photo, but some did. Others spoke up about it. Great.

So what's the big deal?

[G_j]

97. discussions need to be had

a good many Vietnam Vets will tell you the same thing.
People have to talk and hatch out these issues.

The problem with the word "bashing" is that it is quite nebulous.
Are we not to discuss and weigh amongst ourselves what the personal responsibility of an individual soldier is?
I told the army at my draft physical during the VN war that I would readily go to prison rather than fight in their criminal war. One of my best friends ended up in jail for eventually deciding to refuse to cooperate in Vietnam.
Nobody has ever heard me preach about this here, but we need to be able to discuss these things nonetheless.
As part of a peace coalition I work closely with Veterans for Peace, these discussions happen.

I hate to see you go but this is a huge forum and these are wrenching issues.

edit, oops, this was meant to be a response to the OP, not directed to you BB. :-)

[burythehatchet]

91. a "substantial number", nice.

[Goldmund]

236. How does that thread bash the military?

If anything, the thread bashes the glorification of death that is often associated with military culture. What, is that tabboo now, is everything having to do with military pure sainthood?

[Goldmund]

245. oops, self-delete

posted wrong

[Divine Discontent]

34. who is?

MANY a poster is bashing the military, you perhaps haven't entered the posts where it is all the rage to bash the troops. I am TOTALLY DEFIANT against this Iraq Invasion, it is evil, demoralizing, and breaking the bank of our country, and killing our people, and even worse, because we invaded, their's.

I am however, fully respectful of the sacrifice of the military in causes that truly are worth FIGHTING for. This was a fabricated war to win re-election planned years in advance, make billions, and keep the nation at the control of the bushistas. But when there is a true threat, I would tend to believe that God (for my own understanding of warfare) would support protecting one's family and existence if there were people trying to harm your family. So warfare is hard for me, but I respect the minority of soldiers (that is my opinion) that is anywhere from 30%-50%, who are not excited about the chase, the pursuit, the abuse, and the glory, and who are instead in the military to help freedom with their own lives.

I believe that bashing of the troops has happened on here extensively, if you haven't seen it, count yourself blessed by heaven, because it can be extremely harsh. And that's cruel, I don't like seeing "bunch of babykillers" and that sort.

And to the lady who posted this topic, sorry to see you go, you shouldn't imho, because you're needed to fight the bushistas and the condoleezas of this world, but hey, take care! GO WESLEY CLARK!

[Jokinomx]

177. I agree with themartyred.....

I don't get to read all the posts ...but who can. I really think with close to 70,000 members here at the DU, there will be those that don't voice their feelings in the most tactful manner.

With that said.... I haven't read to many threads that really get down on the military, its more this administration. IMHO.

I salute you vetswife for your seemingly endless support for our troops... we need you more now than ever. Just remember who started this war in Iraq with lies and deceit.... and how that offended many of us to our core and continues to fuel a hatred not ever seen on our soil.

I hate to see you go.... but I hope you have a great life.

:toast:

[chalky]

2. I think I missed the military bashing threads, too. n/m

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Divine Discontent]

48. so you would respond to the thread

got your attention didn't it? didn't it? :)

[thebigidea]

59. ha!

"Ooooo! I'm leaving! I hate you guys so muuuch! so much that i'll start a huge thread and reply to it for days to come!"

[Straight Shooter]

217. vetwife has been a very positive contributor to DU

If she wants to leave DU because of what she perceives as too much troop bashing, that's her business. I had wondered why I haven't been seeing many of her posts lately, and I'm glad to have an explanation from her as to why she's "leaving DU."

vetwife has fought a very hard battle against the Republicans who say one thing and do another when it comes to support for the troops. I consider her to be a very gentle person, who fought like hell to get bush out of office and has endured a lot of animosity, even from people in her hometown community, because she knows that "support the troops" is just lip service rhetoric in bushworld, that it doesn't apply to veterans, nor does it apply to GLBT, liberal, progressive, or Democratic members of the military. So it's like pouring salt in an open wound when she seeks refuge in DU, only to find the same attitude amongst some of the posters here, who may actually be right wing disrupters for all we know.

I haven't gotten a sense of hostility towards the troops, but perhaps I haven't gravitated to those kinds of threads either. And I'm not married to a veteran, which would of course enhance one's sensitivity to the issue.

Feel free to disagree with vetwife, but please do not mock her.

[chicagojoe]

4. I've never bashed the troops.

I've only bashed their criminal Commander -In -Chief.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vetwife]

19. Skinner and Eric Blumbrich and Will know I am not a troll !

[Erika]

26. Then how dare you accuse us of bashing our troops

when our own are over there?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bouncy Ball]

55. Well THIS thread is going to get locked any moment now.

You could have said all that you just said without being so insulting and offensive. But you chose not to. Regardless of how you feel about Erika or vetwife, that was uncalled for.

[thebigidea]

60. meanwhile, in the self-righteous irony department...

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pabloseb]

5. Sorry you're going...

However, I haven't seen any vet bashing in DU. Some people don't think they're necessarily heroes in all cases, and may disagree with you on many points (like the spirit of your letter). But that in no way implies bashing, IMO.

[cry baby]

6. It's been a pleasure reading your thoughtful posts...Thank you!

My hope is that you will come back sometime and keep fighting here, too. We need your perspective. If you don't or can't, then best of luck in your endeavors.

[Liberal In Texas]

7. OK, bye.

See ya.

Out of some 60,000 people registered on DU, I'll bet that there aren't more than 1 or 2 percent that would bash vets.

In my own case, my father was retired Army. Would I ever bash him?

Don't think so.

Just because a few may piss you off, it's no reason to leave DU.

If you have other reasons, OK.


But don't make us some whipping-boy troop-bashing site.

THAT IS NOT FAIR.

[Bouncy Ball]

14. I doubt it's even 1 or 2 percent.

One percent would be 600, right? I seriously doubt it's even THAT high.

[Liberal In Texas]

65. Point taken, Bouncy

(hope you're enjoying the 'burbs...I hate them...I'm by the Arboretum...hehehe....)

[Walt Starr]

210. And I'd say 99% of those who would bash the troops are Reichwing Trolls

out to sew discord at DU. OF that 99%, I'd say 100% are CUers out to get their jollies.

[burythehatchet]

94. well stated

nothing like taking a dump in the well as you're leaving.

[Onceuponalife]

8. wouldn't it be better to debate these people

than to run away from them?

[Bouncy Ball]

9. People are allowed to believe as they wish.

I'm a veteran's wife, too, I've seen some posts here that come close to bashing the military, but most Democrats I know would never do that. Which leads one to wonder about the motives of anyone posting here doing so, if you know what I mean. (!!!!!!!) Personally I think most of them come from people who are posting here trying to make Democrats look bad.

Not only that, but while I am proud of my husband's service, I don't get into glorifying the military. On the one hand, veterans are NOT treated the way they should be, but that comes mostly from the government, NOT the people. They have their medical benefits slashed by the government, etc. Everyday people don't do that. I'd say a LARGE majority of everyday people have respect for veterans. And they certainly don't bash them, etc.

On the other hand, I think it's not wise to get into too much glorification of the military. I say treat those men and women right (and they aren't) both while they are in and after they get out, use them ONLY in proper manners (defense!), but don't glorify it all. Even my late grandfather, a WWII vet, was uncomfortable with the overglorification of the military. It leads to a bit of a romanticized view of it all, misleading young men and women who sign up into thinking it's something it's not.

Do you still post at that "other" place?

[tsuki]

131. As a military brat, I do not "bash" the troops. The torture is a

different matter.

I maintain that the military and civilian leadership of today needs to be called to account for the manner in which they are acting toward their own troops and veterans.

[Hephaistos]

162. EXACTLY!

Which leads one to wonder about the motives of anyone posting here doing so, if you know what I mean. (!!!!!!!) Personally I think most of them come from people who are posting here trying to make Democrats look bad.

All that Unka Karl has to do is sign up a few his thugs at DU to post divisively, and drive a wedge between the 'mainstream' and the 'fringe'. Nobody will ever know, because this is an anon board, so there is no downside for them.

Does anybody REALLY thing that hasn't occurred to the repugs? Does anybody REALLY thing they are not doing exactly that?

Leaving DU because some anon posters say something that offends you accomplishes EXACTLY ONE thing, and NOTHING ELSE:

It shows the repugs that divide and conquer still works, and it encourages them to redouble their efforts.

[Stew225]

188. Great point about glorifying, Bouncy Ball!

I had an uncle win the DSC, my dad the Silver Star, and all the rest of them were distinguished. I dropped out of a military academy because my mind is allergic to propaganda. Sorry, personal flaw!

I, too, support the troops but cannot stomach people that glorify them. Vet Wife seems to act very much in support of the troops. But I'm afraid that, based largely on her post, borders on the glorification thing.

Hell, if she wants to go because of 1 to 2 per cent, go. I doubt that she'll get better odds elsewhere.

[Walt Starr]

212. That "other place" is ths SOURCE of the troop basherrs

That's how they get their jollies, "moling" DU to sew discord and portray their idea of a caricature of liberals.

[Toucano]

10. "I'm leaving" posts are always greeted with contempt.

But yours is kinda nice.

Less of a "piss off, losers" and more of a "so long".

Maybe it's the pictures which are a nice touch.

Take care.

[Liberty Belle]

11. The military men are serving their country honorably, for the most part.

They are victims of the President's madness, and I grieve for their sacrifices.

It's important for us at DU to distinguish between the overwhelming majority of military men and women who are serving honorably, vs. the few who are engaged in torture of prisoners or other atrocities. Those sorts of horrors unfortunately occur in every war, and it is never the majority committing them. The difference here is that unfortunately, our President and his top advisors condone such violations of international law. Even the torturers were likely following orders from the top, and may have wound up retaliated against if they'd disobeyed orders. It is our country's leadership that we should lay blame upon, not our brave soldiers.

I hope that you will stay at DU, as a military family's perspective is important for everyone here to hear.

[Lucky Luciano]

12. no need to go

Most of us support the military...the chimp we hate though.

That said, there are always going to be radicals who are in the minority that preach hate for the troops....there are extremists on both sides of the aisle. Put those people on ignore. There are plenty here that appreciate the troops but very few of us appreciate the war.

[smiley_glad_hands]

15. Coworker just came back from Iraq this week.

I am totally appreciative of his service even though we don't agree sometimes on the politics. You should'nt let others push you away. I, for one, do not believe our soldiers are war criminals and I know many other progressives who don't believe that either. Don't be discouraged by those who lack empathy for our soldiers.

There are those here who will praise Castro, yet hate Bush, who wants to be Castro---a dictator. I understand where you're coming from, but we still need diverse voices on this site.

Thankyou for your loved one's service.

[Catherine Vincent]

16. What? I don't see any bashing of our military.

What brought this on? You shouldn't go.

[demwing]

17. Goobye vetswife

its all good.

Keep up the fight, have pride, vote Dem. :)

[Behind the Aegis]

18. Your choice, but...

I hope that you reconsider! You add a valuable voice to the choir here. Perhaps you might suggest a DU group for vets that allows for a 'safe space.' I have enjoyed reading many of your posts, and even when I disagree with what you have written, you have always been polite and patient at explaining your position. I hope that you change your mind and continue to post, even if infrequently. If not, I wish you the best!

:hug:

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vetwife]

23. The same one you did ....

[Kahuna]

193. I hope you reconsider. I understand how you feel about

the disrespect for our soldiers. But, that is certainly the MINORITY of DUers. We need people like you to enlighten the uninformed.

[ConsAreLiars]

21. Some (very few, in my view) confuse the the tool with the wielder.

Your comments here are a good counter to that kind of ignorance. I, for one, will miss you insights if you leave.

(edit since . and , are different)

[Scooter24]

22. Maybe I'm just missing something here...

But isn't that what the "Alert" button is for?

I'm sure if there was a post as terrible as that of which you say, Skinner and Co. will be sure to take care of it ASAP!


Edit: I fully understand your disdain for those who wish harm on our troops, and as a son of a vietnam vet and a grandson of a WWII vet, I will continue to support the troops. Please don't abandon us because of those very few individuals. I wish you would reconsider :)

[Bouncy Ball]

24. Good point.

I find this all quite baffling. Out of the thousands of posts I have read on DU (probably tens of thousands by now), I have only seen two or three which seemed blatantly hateful of the troops, and I had to wonder about the motivations of such posters. Plenty of people hit Alert on such posts, problem taken care of.

Unless her idea of troop bashing is different from mine or something. I think judging from the letter at the end of the post, it might be, as I would never tell people they are ungrateful because they haven't thanked a vet today.

[vetwife]

29. I have hit the alert button more than once

You obviously have not read the threads comparing our troops to Nazis. Sorry, I would be hypocritical to be a part of that.

[Bouncy Ball]

36. Ha! You think by being here, you are in agreement with

EVERYTHING said here? Then you better check out the lounge. I guess I need to leave, too, then because I'm not a gay man, I'm not a Communist in Brazil, I don't believe in astrology like they do in the astrology group, I'm LIHOP not MIHOP when it comes to 9/11, wow I can't be a part of all this!

Hey you want to go, go, no one's stopping you. But I really don't like anyone characterizing this place as troop haters.

[Stand and Fight]

63. I cannot agree more...

I'm a veteran myself, and I think the post is a cop out. I've come across a few posts since I have been on DU -- the past year and a half (mostly lurking) -- and I've taken the troop bashers with a grain of salt. This broad sweeping characterization is immature -- and this is coming from someone who actually IS a veteran and I know what the troops are going through NOW. So, all I can say is if you have a piss poor attitude about DU based on a few jerks who's motives are questionable, goodbye and don't let the door hit you in the ass.

[Bouncy Ball]

70. VERY good points.

[Califooyah Operative]

141. I agree.

It's important to keep in mind, there are those who would have it in their interests to discredit DU. trolls/disrupters/fakes are a reality,and besides, i can't see letting anyone here at DU, even a group, intimidating me enough to leave, especially when the vast majority of the people here are good meaning, involved people who do in fact support our troops. It's running away from a problem, if it in fact exists.

[Scooter24]

46. Could you please provide the links here...

and post number....

Maybe a mod overlooked it, or hasn't gotten around to it.

Sometimes though we must forget the we do live in a land of free speech. Should we tolerate that language here on this board? That's the call of Skinner and our talented, over-worked, and under-paid, volunteer mods.

Take Ward Churchill's comments about the famalies of 9-11. The majority, myself included, think what he said was sickening. However, we recognize his right to say it even though we might object to the message.

It's highly likely that Skinner or any mod would have approved of comparing our troops to Nazis. I suggest you write an email to Skinner and see what he can do.

[UdoKier]

82. THe nazi troops were serving their country, too.

Most of them believed they were doing the right thing and fighting for justice, too.

I wouldn't normally make that comparison. But a soldier in a fraudulent cause is the same, no matter which flag he's under. Or do you think ALL the nazi soldiers were EVIL?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bouncy Ball]

67. Well then why don't you go post that

in the Ask the Administrator forum? Post a link to it and ask "why wasn't this deleted?"

If you don't do everything you can about it, you really can't bitch now can you? From what I've seen it is NOT the policy of DU to leave up insulting messages (which is why I hit alert on one particularly odious one in THIS thread already).

So go to the ATA forum if that's a problem.

Signed,

A Christian Veteran's Wife.

[Stand and Fight]

74. Hey, CLUE in to something...

I'm Christian as well, and I don't get offended when people speak against the radical right-wing fundies. I am secure enough in my own faith to know their not talking about me. Besides, it is not a PERSONAL attack on you -- they're talking about a particular group of Christians. Good grief, get over it. So, what if people attack a concept, a religion, an idea, is your faith in God and his plan so small that you let that affect you? I'd suggest you find peace within your faith and God and let go of the this pettiness about others expressing their Constitutional right to free speech. God's not offended, why in the hell should you or I be?

[Bouncy Ball]

81. Wow, I don't know who you are

but we sure as hell agree on a lot. That's exactly how I feel. If someone wants to believe I'm mentally ill or have a deranged need for an "imaginary friend" for believing in God, have at it. Doesn't bother me in the least. I'm secure enough in what I believe not to really care AND I know what the alert button is for.

[Stand and Fight]

99. Amen to that!

I have a crucifix that has always hung by my bed, and a rosary that I take everywhere with me. But you know one thing I have accepted? (And this is a very ugly thing to admit...) I was once an atheist, an agnostic, a born-again Christian... Well, having been through all of that and seen so much in my life, I had to accept one hard fact -- despite the fact that I know I have felt the presence of God, from a rational standpoint I cannot prove the existence of God. Nonetheless, my personal relationship with God strengthens me, and makes me stronger in the face of adversity. Hell, I have even asked myself, "Hey J, if Christ suffered as much as he did, you can get through this, can't you?" I guess my life experiences have made me more open-minded... I digress...

On the matter of troop bashing -- I was a pure-pacifist before I joined the Army - and laugh if you will folks - in the name of love. I still strongly feel that most of the worlds problems can be solved without resorting to force; however, from my training in the military and working with people from all walks of life, I have accepted it is sometimes a necessary evil to obtain a greater good. Likewise, the members who participate in that process can cross the line from noble actions to nefarious deeds. Unfortunately, our troops are not immune to the flaws that dwell within the human soul, and if they happen to kill in cold blood, then I will condemn them in the same Court of the Mind as I do the Nazis... That is not bashing -- it is what they call HARSH REALITY and BRUTAL HONESTY.

[BrklynLiberal]

103. I believe it was George Carlin who called God an imaginary friend for

adults.

[doodadem]

25. You can support the troops

and NOT support their Commander in Chief, or the reasons they are being sent into this particular war. I think they have been put into a terrible spot, being forced into an impossible situation that they can't get out of, forced into extended tours, etc.
I do have a problem with the guys that go along with that, and say my country, my leader, right or wrong. I also think the people responsible for Abu Grahib, from the top down, should be prosecuted to the full extent, along with soldiers/commanders who open fire on unarmed civilians and prisoners just because they can.
I think we support our troops by bringing them home as quickly as possible from this misadventure, and making sure they have the healthcare and support they need here.
I hope you will choose to stay Amanda.

[Berserker]

50. vetswife

You stuck up for me once in DU and I will never forget that. I am sure you don't remember that time but I do. I am also a vet I went in in 69. I have always read your posts with great interest and respect like you have shown everyone else. I am sad to see you leave. I will remember you with the respect you deserve. Berserker

[tishaLA]

27. Thanks for all you've done

and for all you'll continue to do, vetwife. I hope you'll be back.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vetwife]

31. I am non partiaisn when it comes to vets and this is not a hobby !

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[vetwife]

51. What agenda? Honoring our veterans? No matter what party?

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

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[BrklynLiberal]

30. A lot of vets in this thread, and a lot of support for the troops.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3176725

[Sugarbleus]

32. Dearest Amanda...I'm soooooo sorry to hear of your

disappointment here. I've seen bashing posts too but I ignore them because I also see many posts of support to counter balance the others.

As you know, my own hubby is a VNV. Yes, most certainly YES I always thank a Vet when I see them. I've usually run up on the older ones in my travels but it is such a privilege to thank them. They smile and light up like you wouldn't believe.

My hubby wishes with all his heart that he could travel to the Wall one day. However, he is also very upset with the way this Iraq invasion has gone and the threats of further wars. It's tough being a Vet who just wants peace to settle over the land once and for all.

Personally, after this election fiasco, I've had to turn my attention to social issues (many of which would include returning Vets). Nevertheless, I've been keeping in communication with a lady from the "GOLD STAR FAMILIES" (Cindy is her name). As often as I can I read the pages of various orgs who just want their loved ones to come home.

I do care about those in the military...not so much with the leaders but you get the idea.

I do hope you won't go away altogether, but if you do, I'll keep in touch. You've done soooooooo much for these guys, I'm proud to have known YOU. :hug: SB

[vetwife]

43. Sugarbleus Thank you and you know what I say is true, and there are

many who do support the troops but the threads that do bash are really bad. I can't constantly fight like I do regarding the military and SB I have seen you fight just as hard. I will miss many here but it has gotten more and more prominent. it is like some of us win the battle jsut to continue fighting for them. the war never ends and then we get flamed.

[Sugarbleus]

57. See enclosed..

I LOVE YOU AMANDA.... Please take care--of you, your husband, and your son. Go or stay but keep in touch...promise?

Oh shit, you've got me tearing up now...you and a few of us have been through a lot in a years time :cry: :hug:

[magellan]

35. I haven't seen any vet-bashing either (recently)

If I did I'd have something to say about it. My husband and I are both vets!!

[NightOwwl]

37. I don't understand?

I'll never forget the poem you posted - a vet named Gordon wrote it. It moved me so much I contacted him and asked him to send me a hand-written copy. It's framed now, and I will always hold it in a place of honor.

I've never seen a post bashing a vet...I am stunned by your comments.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[Bouncy Ball]

56. See, here's the problem right here.

You don't know how Must Be Free feels about veterans, but you have internalized it to mean he or she hates you because you love veterans?!?!?! What kind of a leap is that?

And then you think Must Be Free proposes freedom without veterans??

I think next time anyone bashes me on DU, I am just going to accuse them of hating veterans, since I am married to one.

[pabloseb]

66. Also...

Even assuming that Must be Free hates her, and that it hates her because he loves vets (all of which are pure conjectures as Bouncy Ball pointed out) it's just one post out of over 50 at the time of writing. I wish only 2% disagreed with my ideas on DU :eyes:

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UdoKier]

89. Totalitarian dictatorships have vets too.

And yet, strangely, they're not free! Maybe, just maybe, freedom has a little something to do with labor activists, free speech advocates, a free press that does its job, a populace with good civic values, watchdogs and whistleblowers in the government.

[bread_and_roses]

169. YES to that! (n/t)

[fooj]

39. Wow. I'm really sorry that you feel that way. I've been posting

here for a while now and sure, there's jerks lurking around. I won't deny that. The majority of us, however, are spending our time here trying to figure out just exactly HOW we can protect and honor those freedoms you speak of. Many of us are angry at the way this administration has manipulated and used our military for their own personal gain. We have spent many an evening trying to coordinate e-mail blitzes so that our soldiers are properly equipped and protected. I hang my flag daily and take it down in the evening as a sign of respect for those who have fought for this country.


"Did you openly express your discontent with policy makers and have a debate and discussion about our changing world without fear of being shot or locked away? If you did, thank a Vet. That troop insured your freedom to do so in this United States of America."

Unfortunately, open discussion isn't on the administrations agenda this time around. Our president has done his best to erode all of the hard work and sacrifice that our troops have so unselfishly given to this country. Decades and decades of sacrifice.

I don't know what your experience's have been like here so I cannot question the validity of your complaint. All that I know is recently, the Veterans of this country have taken quite a hit. It hasn't been from DU. It has been from the 43rd Pres. of The United States of America. You will never find a group of patriots (aside from our servicemen and women) who love their country more than the people here at DU! Peace!

[Bouncy Ball]

41. Great post.

:thumbsup:

[fooj]

62. Thanks...

:pals:

[Stand and Fight]

109. SUPER AWESOME POST!

fooj --
You nailed it! The real menace to the veterans is none other than the administration of George Walker Bush -- at every turn he has screwed us over. And he has screwed the troops over who are currently serving. I only wish that there was a better way than an election to spare my fellows soldiers, Marines, Airmen and Seamen from the danger that they are being put in because of the Neo-Conservative agenda. The real enemy here is NOT other DUers who have grown so weary of this administration and what it is doing to our country, that occasionally their deep love of country may drive them into frenzied posts; the real enemy is that man in the White House who has surrounded himself with those who a overseeing a mental holocaust in our country as our Constitution and our troops are raked over the burning coals.

[fooj]

112. Amen!

[RapidCreek]

148. Right On!

RC

[mermaid]

40. I Hope Nothing I Ever Said Caused You To Feel That Way!!

Because I understand completely that the men and women on the ground are merely following orders...it is the LEADERS who got us into this quagmore in Iraq that I oppose!! Not the men and women doing the fighting!

It is the LEADERS that I call war criminals...not the men and women on the ground who are just following orders.

I really DO support our troops. I want 'em brought home. All of them! And I still say that is the BEST way to "support the trrops." Press for them to be brought back home! None of them wants to be over there, anyway!

FWIW, I thiank you and your loved ones for your service and sacrifice for our country. I just wish I was as proud of our country as once I was. I find myself now loving my country...and loathing my government. And that is not an easy juxtaposition of ideals to maintain!

[RadiDem]

42. Huh ? WWII was the last war in defense of THIS country and OUR freedom

Every one since then has been elective.

[rukkyg]

100. Exactly.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

150. AND the US bankers FINANCED THE RISE OF HITLER, TOO! Freedom? BS!

Washington DC is owned and operated by fascists who have used the US military for nothing but war crimes for a hundred years.

That is history, not "vet bashing."
Being conned into committing mass murder is not 'defending our freedom.'

As soon as you glorify Americans pulling the triggers and dropping the bombs on innocent victims around the world, you're setting up more fodder and mass murder for the cheap price of 'noble rhetoric,' brass bands, and medals.

Yes our troops are victims of this scam described in General Smedley Butler's 'War is a Racket' and deserve our sympathy, but not glory.

If they really knew what they were being used for, they would rip off their uniforms and attack the fascists in Washington DC, not the children of Fallujah whose corpses are eaten by dogs in the streets.

This is the consequence of a culture that LIES about war combined with poeple ready to blindly obey orders to kill. It is tragic and shouldn't be amplified with talk of 'glory' and 'freedom.' It is the exact opposite of everything the participants hold dear.

[TyeDye75]

153. I agree 100%...well said

[skylarmae]

45. don't know you or what has happened to cause you to want to go

but I implore you, consider again about your going. As we are the collective sum of all our parts, its obvious we need you...

I did notice that in all your thanking of the veterans, one big thank you was missing. IMO not enough thanks goes out to the 'families' of those men and women in uniform. The sacrifices the 'family' faces are deep, enormous and the children especially sensitive and vulnerable.

So, Vetwife, thank you! Hope to read you soon...

[loudsue]

79. Uh....."vetWIFE".....She IS "family".....

For those of us who have known Vetwife all this time, we KNOW what she and her family have been through! If she wasn't giving enough thanks to the families....it's because she IS one!

What...."I thank myself for all I've sacrificed"????

In the past year, DUers have suffered WITH Vetwife, over some of the challenges she's faced with her husband's disabilities. And, even when she was going through her own hell, she was supporting Mari333 when her vet husband killed himself over the stress of her vet son struggling in Iraq.

Vetwife set up the group for Vetfamilies to join together for support... a group that is all across the nation. Vetwife has been active in EVERY area, trying to help bring our kids home, as well as working with the ones who were wounded, and helping connect vet families with politicians and organizations that can help them.

When DU loses a really QUALITY person, like Vetwife, the whole site loses QUALITY. Some of the posts on this thread show the quality that we are subsequently replacing someone like Vetwife with. Just more "dumbing down" of America....everywhere we look.

:cry: Amanda!! Don't go!! :cry:

:loveya: You're the type of person that makes DU the greatest place to be!! :loveya:

:kick::kick::kick:

[Bouncy Ball]

84. Hang on a second, I thought Mari333's husband was killed

in a car accident. You just said he committed suicide because he was so upset over their son being in Iraq???

And btw, I figured she would point out she IS family, but you did for her. I'm sure the person who wrote that meant no harm, and knew SHE was family, but they meant in the general sense in her LETTER, to thank more than the vets but the families of vets.

[0007]

190. Are we getting double speak here? I thought Mari333's husband

was killed in car accident also. It appears someone isn't on the same page.

[Bouncy Ball]

242. I noticed that wasn't answered.

I mean, a car accident and suicide are two very different things. And I distinctly remember it being a car accident. I would hate to think loudsue has changed the cause of Mari's husband's death to suit her own debate purposes here.

[aquart]

53. Oh, please. I'm a pro-Israeli Jew and I stay.

HOW DARE YOU SAY WE BASH OUR SOLDIERS?????????

And lady, honor's nice, but I'd rather see them paid decently with lifetime unchallenged medical.

George Bush wants to give our troops loads of honor to go with the death and suicide and maiming and not a penny to live on, not for them or their survivors. Screw the honor.

Show me respect in dollars and cents.

[tsuki]

It takes an average of a year for a disabled vet to get his benefits.

One third of the homeless are vets. VA hospitals and benefits are disappearing. Now we are charging for "lost rifles" when they lose them because their hand is gone. There is a plan afoot to "self-insure" a soldier getting disabled by making it a payroll deduction. David Chu, Pentagon Spokesman, has nothing good to say about Vets. They are what is wrong with the military.

Going around loudly shrilling, I support the troops, while cutting and ignoring them when they get home is "trashing the troops." A favorite past-time of the Republican Party.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fooj]

64. Truth is our most powerful weapon. Peace!

[cry baby]

73. You have made your point already. n/t

[Divine Discontent]

80. That's your view personally

and it's respected, she's talking about ALL the DOZENS of posts that she's (and I have) seen on DU that are OVER the line. There's nothing wrong with saying, "In my opinion I think A LOT of these troops get a kick out of killing, we've even heard one of their generals say it, they are truly sick for being like that, just SICK", but it's wrong to say, "The men & women over there are nothing but baby killers, and dammit, I'm sick of their fucking up and ruining our country with our OWN tax dollars!!!", that's the argument she's trying to make, an educated person looking at the two similarly worded posts to things I've seen on DU would say the second one is childish, judgemental, and over the top, where as the first has factual basis, and is arguable from both sides, so it's a pertinent comment by the person who said it.


If you don't get what I follow, sorry, but I fully respect her argument.

AWESOME STICKERS/SHIRTS/MUGS
http://www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable
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http://www.cafepress.com/prideoftexas
http://www.cafepress.com/georgebushwear
http://www.cafepress.com/nowmdsnowar
http://www.cafepress.com/jeffgannon

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bouncy Ball]

98. I said "MAYBE you should leave the site"

and I said it in light of the fact that you seem so disturbed by some posts.

The use of the word "maybe" means it was NOT a directive, so maybe you can back off of the assumptions?

And speaking of assumptions, I'm not a guy, thank you.

If the posts are not deleted, either the mods decided not to or they didn't see them. So then you go to the ATA forum, as I told you above.

Unless you just like having this to gripe about..... :shrug:

[Divine Discontent]

106. last comment towards you ball

Sorry, you're the one who responded to my post with the not so subtle request that I should leave the website if I didn't like it (in your all knowing opinion). I don't like your tone, or your suggestions, they are not positive in nature, they are only acidic and cold. Democrats need to stick together, you're comments don't suggest sticking together. Let's just move along and not be hostile? MMMk?



http://www.cafepress.com/nowmdsnowar
http://www.cafepress.com/jeffgannon

[fooj]

WTF? Hey everyone...the moon was full LAST NIGHT! Peace!

Geez...This is one hell of a way to honor our servicemen and women. I've had enough. Goodnight all! BBall-have a great weekend!:hi:

[0007]

191. I disagree with you, because many of those posters that slammed

our troops were probably trolls, and many were lashing out with angry toward a fucked up administration that allowed our troops to torture and commit wholesale murder.

I respect her opinion and her right to express herself but not her argument.

"When the going get tough, the tough gets going!"

[flaminbats]

58. at least don't stop voting..

whether it was the attacks on Kerry, Cleland, or those who are now serving, Republican politicians have used our soldiers not to serve and protect our nation, but only as political pawns in a power struggle.

If we wish to win in Iraq, or protect our nation from terrorism we must pay more in taxes. Those who send these men and women to fight or die for us must be willing to give them the best in health care and pay. Most importantly we must never allow these troops or our tax money to be abused by the President.

My Grandfathers were veterans, my best high-school friend is in the Navy, and someone I always looked up to in my community..a Vietnam Vet killed himself only after he could no longer make enough money. I have always respected veterans, I mainly became politically active because many of the vets I cared about were active in Democratic politics..and urged me at a young age to become involved!

If you or I leave politics now, we dishonor all these veterans fight for. This may sound pompous coming from an activist liberal like me..we need you, and they need you even more! It was Vets who made me what I am today..

[EFerrari]

71. Thoughts & wishes

Amanda,

You and yours have my family's thoughts. These are difficult times and we must keeping fighting the good fight.

We can do that.

Beth

[moondust]

72. What if they had a phony war based on lies and incompetence

and nobody came?

Bye.


Army vet, 6 years.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vetwife]

88. I never said All DU.....I never did ! Got a lot of friends here

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bouncy Ball]

90. I don't get the constant glorification of the military, either.

And neither does my veteran husband. :shrug:

[vetwife]

101. Appreciation their sacrafice is not glorifying especially

following orders for a war that was not their doing.
You know not of which you speak. I get phone call after phone call from veterans each day..Hurting. Some were members here.
the warrior and the war are two different things.
Combat veterans know these guys are needing or will be in need.
I don't care if a vet is dem, republican, or no party affiliation.
The article was generic of some who do bash the troops..not every person on DU..!!!!!

Wanna call me a Drama Quenn. when it comes to our veterans and our military..Call me anything you like........Best to call me patriotic !

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bouncy Ball]

113. Well I'll try it again more nicely.

You aren't the only one who knows about hurting vets. My father in law, 57 years old, is dying of leukemia from Agent Orange exposure in Vietnam.

I don't agree with telling people they are ungrateful unless they've thanked a veteran, and most veterans I know don't want people forced into thanking them anyway. If people thank them out of guilt or pressure, that's no real thank you, is it?

I can't believe you said I don't know of what I speak. You don't even know me. But you've appointed yourself representative of all veteran's wives, I guess.

[BrklynLiberal]

116. That was much better...

:P :eyes: heh heh

[Bouncy Ball]

122. Oh, good.

:crazy:

[fooj]

117. I'll refer to you as patriotic if you refer to me as patriotic! I joke.

Peace!

[JohnOneillsMemory]

154. "The warrior and the war are two different things."-this is the paradox.

You do see the problem with saying 'the bullets I fire are not my reponsibility, I just take orders,' yes? Remember that this was the Nazi defense at Nuremberg after WWII.

The White House and the entire US culture from public schools to CIA-steered mainstream media LIE CONSTANTLY TO JUSTIFY THEIR ECONOMIC WARS AND CALL IT 'DEFENSE.' This isn't just the case with the neocon's wars, but for many decades now.

In this manner, our troops are innocent because they don't know what they are really being used for. Blame the Lie Matrix of the US government/media/public school complex that is intentionally designed to churn out blindly obedient workers and soldiers for the Empire.

But there is a similar analogy to beginning to smoke cigarettes (usually as a youth) and becoming addicted. Once you pick up the tools of destruction, you become ensnared, complicit, and self-justifying.

There is also more than zero responsibility for originally joining the military which has the principle task of killing people, not weaving rugs or selling flowers or educating citizens.

The more you call for 'honor' and 'glory' for the unwitting trigger-men for US corporations, the more innocent people will die horrible deaths for generations to come.

I support the best healthcare and hospitals for vets possible. They deserve every bit of physical and emotional support for the burdens they bear even though they are mistaken in believing they are doing good.

But I don't support one tiny flag's worth of 'glory' for the tragedy they both suffer and inflict. That would be the quick-fix of ego-gratification over saving lives and so would be fatally irresponsible.

[IdaBriggs]

182. Maybe you just made your own point?

"The article was generic of SOME who do bash the troops...not every person on DU..!!!!!"

Sixty plus thousand people on DU, and SOME bash the troops...but you want to leave the party because of it? For shame, Amanda! (I'm saying it in a gentle, scolding, "I want you to think about it and reconsider" way.) I know you are tired, frustrated, and maybe feeling a little burnt out, but leaving your friends at DU permanently is definitely on the extreme side.

Take a break for a day or two, or discuss it first. (Wait a minute! That IS what you are doing! Doh! :)) And remember, when you need help, this is a fabulous resource for it.

There are ALWAYS going to be people who disagree with you; as long as its done respectfully, why leave? You can also use the "ignore" feature if someone is just kind of on the obnoxious side about stuff.

[0007]

194. "Call me anything you like........Best to call me patriotic !"

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it. William Shakespeare

Who was it that said, "My country Right or Wrong?

[ScreamingMeemie]

240. Sorry vetwife, I wouldn't brand you with a name that the RW has twisted

and turned into something I am no longer proud of. Best to just take off into the wild blue yonder now....It's obviously not your cup of tea here at DU.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[caligirl]

77. As the wife of a retired Lt. Col and the daughter of a Vietnam vet

thank you. I realize many here will feel the reasons you are leaving here are not necessarily true. But its like many stories, there is some truth, but not everyone is guilty. I too have noted that there has been a trend toward directing shock and disgust at the troops, by some here , not by all. Wars are brutal and when we see the brutality committed upon human lives by our neighbors in the name of serving our country, we are understandibly shocked. It is normal to transfer the disgust and anger at the nearest target. Blaming or making disparaging comments of some of the troops. Bush has taken that blame game to an all time high. They shouldn't get it from both ends.

A group of National Guard troops just got back here, bay area, after more than a year in Iraq, their wives and kids so hppy to have them home alive. These guys had the highest casualty count over there. It was an eye opener to hear their comments which were not a ringing endorsment of Bush or the war.

I still like the DU and many people have ideas and beliefs that are worth my time to read and think about. I hate Bush, I hate everything he stands for. I deplore his stepford wife Laura and those two hicks. I come to the DU for refuge and a safe haven from the stark and cruel world Bush is creating.

I think it is hard to hear the negative comments toward the troops, but I try to see it as anger at the brutality that is war. Remember none of the generals wanted to do this. Just the draft evading Pres and Vice Pres.

Overall I have seen tremendous support for the troops and people just having a tough time getting through the day. I think I'll stay a little longer.

:nopity:

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[earth mom]

83. IMO, you're being over sensitive. My DH is a vet and I haven't seen

any vet bashing and even if I did, I feel that people are entitled to their opinion about the military. I'm not all that crazy about the military because I don't believe in war except as an absolute last resort. I don't agree with all the money that is thrown away on the military instead of being spent on health care and social programs here for ALL the people of this country. Not to mention the money that is just flat out wasted-believe me, in my husbands 11 years of service, he saw TONS of waste-all kinds of good food thrown over the side of the ship etc etc etc! Which is just the tip of the iceberg as we all know-ie. Haliburton. More than anything else, I hate to see those who are serving being totally used as they are for so little pay and having their families at home require food boxes or food stamps to stay alive-how disrespectful is that?! All this is on top of how the troops in Iraq are fighting a war that is based on a LIE-NO WMDs remember? But oh yeah, there's plenty of OIL over there... wink, wink! :eyes: Lastly, once these brave military men and women return home they are treated badly! Far too often they are not given the benefits and care-physical and mental-that they may desperately as a result of their service to this country. And worse yet, many of them end up homeless because they are physically or mentally unable to work! How can anyone think that's this is the best way to honor and commend these brave soldiers given what they have sacrificed?!

So...if what I've written is considered "bashing" by some...well sorry to tell ya...but the truth hurts!

[Joe the Revelator]

85. I agree with the theme of this thread...

I use to agree with everything said on DU, but as time has gone on, some ( not all) vocal members of this forum have gone completely off the deep end. I blame it on a feeling of hopelessness after we lost the white house again in November.

People have gotten bogged down in their hate for Bush and are no longer thinking proactive. The forum has become muddled with batty conspiracy theories and spin to turn any of the bad in the world back to Bush.

While I agree that Bush has more then his share of blame for the ills of the world, complaining and spinning everything back to him solves nothing. WORK PROACTIVLY.

[Bouncy Ball]

92. Why do you think working proactively and venting on this site

are mutually exclusive?

Someone can't vent here AND be working in a positive way for the Democrats in their real life at the same time?

What do you do to work proactively???

[Joe the Revelator]

104. I'm 22 years old...

and i've been paid staff on a campaign every year since I was 18. What have you done? ( I don't want to get in a dick measuring contest, but, if you're going to ask the question, then its only fair that you have to answer)

[Bouncy Ball]

120. A dick measuring contest?

I'd lose that, not having a dick and all, but I was a volunteer on Dean's campaign from the beginning, flying to Iowa to canvass in September of 2003, writing tons of letters (long hand) and using minutes on my cell phone to call undecided Democrats in swing states. I started a Dean meetup in my suburb, and when the place we normally met went out of business so suddenly we had no notice, I held the meetup in the parking lot, turning it into a tailgate party and even got local media to cover it.

Then I started working for Kerry's campaign AND busted my ass for a Dem running for state representative here, even begging my employer for (and being granted) three weeks sabbatical right before the election. During that three weeks, I personally knocked on over 300 doors in my district, worked the phones many nights until 10 pm, then stayed to help do paperwork, stuff envelopes, etc until well after midnight.

I poll-greeted for twelve hours on election day. In the pouring rain. I didn't eat or go to the bathroom or sit down all day (no one to replace me).

I've had four letters to the editor published in major Texas newspapers (all urban papers).

I'm a deputy voter registrar and a precinct chair. I attend my city Dem meetings every month and I'm a member of DFA and attend THOSE meetups every month.

I've personally registered 378 people to vote, and that was in just a few months.

I work closely with two Texas university College Democrat groups and one atheist organization (even though I am Christian) that works hard on separation of church and state issues.

GLBT rights is a big fight for me and I've lost track of all the emails, letters, and phone calls I have made to elected representatives on these issues.

I'm sure I'm leaving out plenty. I have to also add I work full time, go to graduate school part time, am married, and have a 10 year old daughter.

[Joe the Revelator]

123. Then good for you, and my post was not for you....

which I've made clear a couple of times now. The people I'm talking about, subscribe to MIHOP, think orange jumpsuit prisoners are REALLY being beheaded by Americans in the basement of the pentagon, and can somehow blame mundane things like a dead solider getting a Medal of Honor into a commentary on her choice of home decor.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe the Revelator]

127. ah man

i didn't get to see it before it got deleted.

[Bouncy Ball]

Eh, I don't know why it was.

It was nothing offensive to you.

Here I'll parse it down, so as not to get deleted again:

all I basically said was there are immature posts from time to time at any website.

There, I'll leave it at that.

[Bouncy Ball]

129. Eh, I don't know why it was.

It was nothing offensive to you.

Here I'll parse it down, so as not to get deleted again:

all I basically said was there are immature posts from time to time at any website.

There, I'll leave it at that.

[Joe the Revelator]

132. No worries..

i really wasn't trying to call anyone out, its just that I've felt myself being alienated more and more on this board since election day. I know the air was deflated from the collective group, but it seems that there are a lot more, for lack of a better term, wacky people posting now who want to chicken little everything into a major scandal. I know things seem hopeless to some people lately and i can appreciate that, but there has to be a better way to go about it then disagreeing with EVERYTHING that happens and blaming it on bush (ie, the medal of honor thread cited in the first 20 posts)

I know most of the people who read this post will feel like I'm preaching to the choir, and i hope that those people won't take my opinions to heart.

[caligirl]

128. YOu did those friggin letters? I did them too, after 50 long hand I used

my printer and jotted in a personal note. I didn't fly to Iowa. Made lots of calls too.

[Bouncy Ball]

130. Yep, every one of them long hand.

OUCH, the hand cramps. I would take tons of addresses and envelopes at meetups, then regret it the next day, but I felt so guilty that I wrote all of them.

Urg. But it was a good experience, I don't regret it one bit.

[caligirl]

134. My hubby and I sat at the table for hours doing ten at a timn each.

And oh yes the hand cramps were killer. My letter were long and full of details from my heart as a mom of a diabetic kid and a nurse. My husbands were shorter and about his disagreemnts on the war. We were going to meetups too. Dean is the first candidate we gave money to, let alone wrote friggin letters for. Then I just spent to much time on the Dean blog, At least he is the DNC Chair now.

[Misunderestimator]

181. I knew there was a reason I liked you.

:loveya: :hi:

[Totally Committed]

225. What the heck does this have to do with the price of tomatoes?

By the age of 22, I too had a lot of political experience. I am now old enough to have dresses older than you. Let me just tell you, no matter how much political experience you have, all your post indicates is arrogance. It was simply un-called for.

The Democrats and Progressive Independents who root for them had better come to terms with pulling together in the same way as the Regressives in the Republican Party do, or we will be our own undoing. If we do not stop eating our own every chance we get, we are done-for.

TC

[vetwife]

105. I am the CEO of a Veterans Organization 501 C 19

Why don't you ask the members who know me what I do proactively?
How about putting out a Get out the Vote CD
How about Radio Talk Shows
The Guy James Show
C-Span
CNN
How about working day and night for Veterans causes
How about trips to Washington..Calls from Veterans Families Day and in the middle of the night......
What do you do?

[Joe the Revelator]

110. Well, if you read my post, it wasn't aimed at you...

I said SOME members of this forums ( and even went as far as to clarify "NOT ALL MEMBERS" ) have fallen into their own trap of self-pity.
Edit: and apparently yours wasn't aimed at me either :)

[Bouncy Ball]

121. I wasn't asking you vetwife, I was asking wolsh

[scottty]

174. I agree n/t

[Donailin]

185. WRT batty conspiracy theories

sort of off topic, but I think this needs mentioning.

I have found myself following and researching batty conspiracy theories much more than I normally would lately but after refelction I can see why I do that: Because the obvious lies and crimes that are plain for everyone to see (Iraq war lies, stolen election etc) aren't resulting in the disgrace of this president and I have reached the point of desparation. If the obvious won't take him down, what will for God sakes??!! I think I speak for many in saying that; Nixon wasn't disgraced by his covert war crimes, but by some obscure burgulary. I reckon ti will be the same for this president, he'll be scandalized by something completely unrelated to the anti-american policies he is executing. That's why many of us are leaving no rock unturned.

[Lisabtrucking]

95. Why answer or read the post? When I read something I don't like

I just go somewhere else. I really didn't notice troop's being bash either, I guess I'm not looking for it.

If you leave you'll miss this site, this is a great place to voice your opinion, and pass the time.

I don't know you, but I hope you'll just take a break. That's what I do. When something gets me mad, I just leave for a while.

[flaminbats]

111. Amen!! ..just joking

reading a post that I disagree with is either a fast way to learn or become bored. Responding to a post I disagree with is the best way to make new friends and enemies at once.

[Disturbed]

115. I have read a whole lot of posts defending the troops.

Very few bashing the troops. I hope you can overlook a few idiots because most DUers aren't bashing troops but it is hard at times not to feel depressed when we read about the few troops that are dishonorable or the one General who said that it's fun to kill some people. Of course the majority of the troops are honorable and doing the best they can under the circumstances that they have been placed in.

I hope you reconsider.

[norml]

102. I expect that some people will say some things that I don't like.

I'm glad that some people are able to say some things that I don't like. You should hang around. If you go, I hope you come back. You're always welcome here, as far as I can tell.

[Old Mouse]

107. You must do what you think is best

but I think you are forgetting why you came here.

A group of career criminals have hijacked our government and are plundering our nation to a degree once thought impossible. more than a hundred thousand innocent people have been killed, and promises of more hundreds of thousands are on the horizon. Our checks and balances are effectively dismantled, our economy is in collapse, and any serious study to determine if our life-sustaining environment is in collapse or not is blocked in the name of corporate profit.

DU, DailyKos, the whole world of blogs has been the ONLY thing to even slow Bush's rush toward complete power. The letters, protests and investigations that won't go away... that's all US, not Congress or the press. It's just as stupid as the mainstream press points out; A bunch of people sitting around when they should be sleeping or working, typing away in the blogosphere thinking they have an effect on the most powerful people on earth - but that's the sad truth of our world right now. We're the front line in the greatest fight democracy will see in our lifetime.

We're sixty THOUSAND strong now. The only thing we truly share in common is a desire to unseat Bush. We don't agree on how to do that, religion, science, candidates, civil rights, or even what the term "democrat" means. With this many people discussing issues, someone is eventually going to say something insensitive, inappropriate, or just plain stupid. The very nature of this environment makes well measured responses difficult and angry ill chosen responses easy. If there is anyone on DU that hasn't been deeply offended, I say they haven't looked through all of the groups yet. Sixty thousand people can't get along on everything. For that matter, six people get along on precious few issues.

My point is this: You know your presence here is valuable. Your passion, your undeniable position of patriotism gives us conscience and legitimacy. Your presence is felt here. Please, think about how much is at stake, how little time we have left to effect change, and reconsider.

The blogs got Gannon, and they CAN get Bush too.

[byronius]

114. The intellectual joy of mutual discovery...

...must substitute for the lockstep. What a wonderful statement you have made.

[EFerrari]

118. Bravo, Old Mouse.

Let's revel as we can in our disagreements.

Then, let's get back to work.

[caligirl]

119. Vetwife, old mouse is right. You just need a break, you have been

at this for so long and been so devoted. Hope you won't throw in the towel now.

[SmokingJacket]

195. What Old Mouse said so eloquently

Plus my two cents:

Our greatest asset AND our greatest flaw as democrats is the passion we feel for the issues we care about. We feel so strongly about whatever it is (choice, gay marriage, environment, supporting the troops, etc) that it becomes very hard to unite with people who feel differently. Our party is constantly threatened by these divisions.

Republicans find it easier to overlook differences within the party and unite into a very solid block -- maybe because they're less passionate??

The challenge here is to retain our allegiance to our issues while trying to stick together in a group large enough to elect someone who is at least CLOSE to what we truly believe in.

It's not easy. But I think we really do need to overlook some differences -- especially now, when Bush is doing his best to destroy our country.

Please stay!

[cynatnite]

126. Well, it's happened

There've been a few posts that I thought went too far when it came to the military, but I've never felt it was a continuing problem here at DU.

For every post that I thought was harsh towards the military, there were plenty of vets who spoke up including me.

I do think it's very subjective. What one person views as bashing another may see it as discussion.

[HamstersFromHell]

133. I find this whole thing to be rather disingenuous.

To come in with flag waving awards and "see what I did" mom and pop and apple pie "patriotism" while espousing to support the troops, then saying "I can't take it, so I'm leaving" kinda reeks. Especially knowing it'd turn into a full blown flame war. Then you stick around to argue with those who don't see it your way.

To me supporting our troops means getting them home from an illegal occupation of a soverign nation NOW.

As someone else pointed out, we (as a country) haven't engaged in a legitimate "war" of self-defense since Pearl Harbor, and if you cared to really examine that, the Japanses were forced to the point of attacking by U.S. foreign policy toward them. All the rest, call them "wars" or "police actions" have been mostly proactive aggressions against other nations.

Those who were drafted never had a real "choice"...fight for the policy of our "leadership", be imprisoned or leave the country.

The rest of our fathers, mothers, sons and daughters volunteered for that job. Either out of a sense of some moral values they held regarding the particular conflict our nation was involved in, or else out of the mere fact that they needed a paycheck too. (Does anyone else remember the MAD magazine take off of a recruiting poster from the '70's "De Poor, De Colored, De Marines"?) I would imagine there are other reasons as well, known and not known to me and/or others in this forum.

It still stands that all those who volunteered did so knowing full well they might be asked to put themselves in harm's way, perhaps some of them praying to themselves all along that they might be able to serve long enough to be able to have the government pay their way through college without ever being called to see a battlefield, much less actually kill another human being. Nonetheless, they are now being called on to kill or be killed in yet another foreign policy blunder of yet another misguided administration.

Most of those National Guardsmen probably figured they were never going to have to see anything worse then helping police some street in our own country when some unforseen natural disaster hit.

Still, they volunteered. "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it."

Believe me, I support the troops. But like so many here, I see this administration's "photo opping" and "sound biting" of this illegal war. Calling a spade a spade (in the opinions we're allegedly allowed to have here) doesn't automatically equal not supporting the troops, just because you happen to see it that way. You have your opinions, other may see it your way, some may differ. If you don't like what you see, use Alert (in case of rules breaking) or Ignore.

But spare me that no matter what you've done to help our troops, that we all owe them any more debt of gratitude than to our own law enforcement officers or our firefighters, who face those very same dangers every day right here in our own country. They volunteered too.

They have one thing our troops don't have. They can decide enough is enough and quit. It seems you've availed yourself of that option as well.

So if you have decided enough is enough, go ahead and quit. But don't tell anyone else how they should support anything. You've lost that high ground, since those dads, moms, sons and daughters you claim to support can't say to themselves the very same thing: "I can't take this anymore, I'm going to quit." If you want to quit, fine, do so, but don't "quit" by claiming you're the sole proprietor of the moral high ground and tossing verbal incindiary grenades down the hill just to see who'll bite.

Stay or leave, you make that call. I'll engage any intelligent discussion. Either way, I wish you well.

[Bouncy Ball]

135. Why didn't I just wait about an hour

for this post?

:thumbsup:

[BrklynLiberal]

136. Excellent post.

[RadiDem]

140. Perfectly said ! Thank you !

[bahrbearian]

151. Very well said,, thank you.

[Pushed To The Left]

137. Don't let a few bad apples

drive you away and "push you to the right"! I would bet that a huge majority of us here feel the same way you do about the brave men and women who serve in the Armed Forces. Some of us, myself included, have Veterans in our families. One of the reasons many of us are so angry at the Bush Administration is due to the way that they have screwed over Veterans by slashing VA funding! Many of us are also upset that so many soldiers have been killed in Iraq. I hope you change your mind about leaving.

[Califooyah Operative]

142. well said. nt

[fleabert]

138. Not everyone was on that thread, or any of them.

I wasn't. there are good and bad people everywhere, even here, even in the military. I wish my brother could say no to serving, but he can't. He wishes he could, but he has a young daughter to think of supporting and cannot lose the paycheck or the future he'd submit to by going AWOL. At 18, he never thought we'd go to war.

War is painful, for everyone.

I support the troops, that means I want them to come home.
I appreciate everyone for serving, because I never would. But I don't think anyone in Iraq is fighting for my freedom, that was a lie told by Bush to push us to war, and they should be just as pissed as we are that they were/are being used that way. Our soldiers are in Iraq fighting for Bush and monetary interests there, it's sick.

We need discourse here, I hope you stick around.

[Sapphire Blue]

139. Support for the troops is strong

However, support for the mission, the invasion & occupation of Iraq, wanes each day.

Seems that the 'troop bashing' comes from those who hold 'a few bad apples' accountable for the administration's torture policies, rather than holding those who enacted those policies accountable. Meanwhile, the troops face courts martial for following orders, as well as for not following orders.

The buck never stops at the top.... not in this fascist regime.

Incidentally, who do I thank for the freedoms taken away by the PATRIOT ACT?

[Qanisqineq]

143. My husband has been called a war criminal here on DU

and I've been accused of being a war "cheerleader" here at DU simply because my husband served in Iraq. He is still a soldier. Yep, this "cheerleader" was in anti-war marches while her "war criminal" husband was in Iraq. Neither of us agreed with the war before it started either. My husband was OUT of the army for less than a year but got called back because of this damn war.

I guess I haven't been hanging around DU much the past few months to really see anti-troops threads. I think it isn't as prevalent as it once was but it is one of two things that made me take a break from DU. One thing I think all the people lashing out at the troops should realize is that the military isn't as pro-Bush as you may think. I live on a military base and the people I know are afraid to say anything publicly (many won't even say it to parents and other civilian friends) but they despise Bush, even many of the conservatives dislike Bush. They are sick of this war, they are sick of being threatened if they do not reenlist, they are sick of being away from their families.

They didn't decide to start a war with Iraq, they signed up to defend their country if need be. And don't let a few bad apples (the Abu Ghraib bunch, etc.) spoil your view of the majority of troops.

[Bouncy Ball]

145. Did you hit alert on those posts?

Because that certainly would be deleted and if the same poster continued in that vein they would be banned.

A huge majority of DUers agree with what you wrote and woul dnever say such things to you. Just like you said about not letting a few bad apples spoil your view, don't let that happen with DU, either. (Not saying you are, but pointing out that your advice works as well here, too.)

[RapidCreek]

144. See ya.

You can keep your blessings from God. I don't want or need them.

Since you seem to be fond of handing them out, maybe you can start with offering a God Bless to this little girl and each one of the people lying in the pile behind her. American soldiers did this to these people. Understand?



When you get done giving her a blessing from God you can say one for each and every one of the 100,000 or so Iraqi innocents that our protectors of freedom have killed.

The father and mother of this little girl won't be able to kiss her ever again, they won't be able to touch her tiny face before she goes off to school. She won't be able to do it with her children either.

She won't be taken out to a movie or to dinner or to watch the sunset
or stop for a milkshake or sundae and sit and talk about plans for the future. She's dead.

She'll never have a chance to openly express her discontent with policy makers and have a debate and discussion about our changing world without fear of being shot or locked away.

She won't be able to go to work or drive anyplace that she wants.

I find it odd that you seem to forget people like this little girl and her loved ones, never a mention of them....well no, I guess I don't actually find it all that odd.

I get real damn tired of people who suggest we live in a free society because of war.....Such a philosophy hardly seems to have much to do with God. I also get damned tired of people who suggest soldiers are beyond criticism. They're not and neither are Veterans.

It's this mentality, that the military is beyond reproach, that leads to their misuse, deaths and disabilities. Think about that for a while.

I realize you think your words are righteous....and to a certain degree they are....but your blanket statements concerning criticism of the military are sanctimonious, insensitive and one sided.




Sincerely,

Rapid Creek
Disabled US Veteran

[bahrbearian]

152. Thank you for posting my sentiments is a thoughtful way.

[jonnyblitz]

155. great post.

:eyes: this vet can speak for himself and doesn't need blind jingoism and god talk to feel validated.

[Joe the Revelator]

159. I will not blame the horrors of war...

on kids who are younger then myself (I'm 22 and still draftable). Keep the blame where its deserved, at the people ordering these kids to commit these barbaric acts.

[Misunderestimator]

184. Thank you.

For your post, and your service, and your compassion.

[Kahuna]

199. You don't know that she isn't offering a "God Bless" to the victims..

of our illegal invasion. I am as anti Iraq invasion as any other DUer. One can oppose the invasion and support the troops at the same time. I know, because I do both. I don't blame our soldiers for following the orders of their Commander in Chief.

I have three nephews who have been rotated in and out of Iraq since the invasion started. THREE!!!!! My baby nephew, 21 years old is there right now. He already knows that he will need counseling when he returns home for good. They all will have their stories to tell. They are disgusted by what they have seen and what they have been ordered to do. What do you expect them to do? Disobey orders? That may be easy for you to say now, but do you know that you would have disobeyed orders that you found immoral when you were in the service?

[ohio_liberal]

221. This is a great post!

I get real damn tired of people who suggest we live in a free society because of war

Yeah, me too. And I don't understand the mentality.

[rman]

146. DU polls show most DU-ers by far do not bash the troops.

There are 65,000 DU-ers; some are bound to say some things that other DU-ers don't like. Not to mention the fact that *anyone* can be a DU-er; all you've got to do is post on DU, and *anyone* can do that.

If every DU-er would leave because some other DU-ers say something they don't like, it'd be real quiet here real quick.

There's bashing of moderates, progressives, gays, the south, vegans, SUV's, guns, conspiracy theorists, etc, etc, etc.
Plenty of reason for everyone to leave, even though most DU-ers don't bash anyone.

[FM Arouet666]

147. Why give up?

I am an ex-Marine and I have been shocked by some of the posts. I am not a nationalist, and not pro-military, if pro-military is to mean unrestrained use of our forces for imperialist goals. I am pro-military in that the men and women who serve deserve better than this administration is giving them. Most in the military hold a strong belief in America and what America used to stand for. Most will go, unquestionably, where ever the commander and chief sends them. This is part of military service, and is misunderstood by those who have never served. You may disagree with an order, but you must follow, unless it is clearly illegal. Even then it would be hard to resist, without negative consequences. This is reality, and we should not chastise those in the military for their service. The fault is with the administration. Those in the military are victims, they want to do the right thing, support the ideals of America, and serve a nation with a proud tradition of freedom and liberty. They are being used by those motivated by greed and power.

Why give up? There will always be those which you do not agree with. I have had numerous arguments on this board, yet try to find a common ground and sway others with my arguments. You bring insight into this topic and DU will be weaker if you leave and you will lose your voice.

[Jamastiene]

149. Wow

This thread has turned into a war in its own right. The troops aren't getting bashed. The truth sometimes comes out about this war. The troops are doing what they are told. Period. It's the fact that so much of what is happening is plain flat out wrong. You can't honestly say that you are okay with the video footage and the pictures of what is going on, can you? You can't honestly say that you are okay with what was going on in the tortue pictures, can you? If so, they so be it, good bye. I'm sorry you feel that way. If not, then, all I can suggest is to step outside of yourself long enough to realize that this country was founded on the right to disagree. When you say any of us are troop bashing because we point out that there have been war crimes committed, you are going against what the whole purpose of our country is supposed to be about. Freedom of speech is what they want to fight for and the consequences mean that someone might not like what happens in the process. I'm really sorry you feel that way.

[JohnnyCougar]

156. This is absolute hogwash.

You are leaving because you have been attacked with words. So what? We all get assaulted here at DU.

If the vets you are defending were as poltroon as you are acting right now, we would have a major problem. Our army would have folded at the first insurgent attack.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing as to whether the military was bashed on DU, but I guaruntee that you are in the majority opinion on this issue. If some fringe freaks say something you don't like, that is hardly grounds for getting your panties in a bunch and leaving. I fail to believe this is your real reason for starting this thread. Perhaps you just felt bored and wanted to stir the pot.

However bad the troop bashing is on here (and please note, I have no idea what you are talking about) there is no way that it is prevelant enough that one should feel like leaving. Skinner has made it clear time after time that troop bashing is unacceptable here. If there is any troop bashing, the mods should be alerted. They will delete unacceptable posts.

Anyhow, my advice to you is to simply grow thicker skin. I appreciate all that you do for the troops, and so does 99% of DU. In the meantime, please stop whining like this whole place is insensitive to your cause. It's not.

[RealLifeNM]

161. The Problem is...

Not that a large majority on here bash the military. The problem here is that a large majority in here tolerate those who bash the military.

[Solly Mack]

167. What? Their freedom of speech bothers you?

If my husband's service as a soldier "protects" the freedom of Americans, doesn't that freedom include free speech? Would not my husband be a hypocrite if he wanted to quash the free speech of others?

In fact,ANYONE who claims "soldiers protect our freedoms" and then turns around and attempts to deny that freedom to those they disagree with would also be a hypocrite.

You don't have to like what people say about the military...and you can tell them you don't like what they said too. But you can't deny them their right to say it.

For the record,the overwhelming majority of DU has been very supportive of the military. DU has been there for me...to listen to me rant. To offer a shoulder for me to cry on.

I'm the spouse of a soldier and I LOVE DU and DU'ers!

[RealLifeNM]

209. Nope

The fact that so many people refuse to speak out against the hateful message that they spew. If someone came on here and was talking that way about people of color or women, everyone would be spitting nails...Where is the outrage.

[Solly Mack]

215. DU'ers combat snerts and lurkers, trolls and

flame-baiters all the time.

There are legitimate concerns voiced about the military on DU and there is no reason to counter those valid concerns.

There are legitimate concerns about the way Shrub is using the military...no reason to counter those either.

I'm not outraged by valid concerns.

If you see a comment that offends you, say so...and hit alert

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluestateguy]

158. reply

I agree with you, but only to an extent, and as this war in Iraq drags on longer and longer, I'm eventually going to reach a place where I will expect the troops to do what is right for themselves and their country: refuse to fight in this illegal and immoral war.

I of course wish for the safe return of all US troops. At the same time, I really have to work hard to muster sympathy for a serviceperson who voted for George W. Bush in 2004 (a Bush vote in 2000 I can write off as just an error in judgment). Mind you, I won't say that feel no sympathy for such persons, only that I have to work at it. But again, at some point I will expect them to do what is right and refuse to fight in this war (or any other war of conquest).

I have a hard time accepting the premise that the troops in Iraq are fighting for the freedom and liberty of the United States. I can accept that the troops in Afghanistan are doing so, but not Iraq.

At the end of the day the most important thing one can do to actually support the troops is not to put yellow stickers on cars or worry about what is being said on an internet message board. Rather, the way we can support the troops is to demand of our politicians that veterans are given the most generous benefits possible and assisted in their readjustments into civilian life.

[B Calm]

160. As a veteran myself, I beg you not to leave.

Bush is exploiting the military for corporate interests. In DU there are a lot of hard feelings because the young men and women in uniform are to blind to see what they're doing..

[agincourt]

163. IMHO,

Bushe's Yale cheerleader rallies at the military bases, and the swiftboat swill reduced the status of military people in many eyes. Al Gharib didn't help either. The military needs a makeover from appearing as a hyper armed RW political club. It needs an image as being a "peoples army" once again, not just team for the republican party.

[mr blur]

164. I'm sorry that you feel personally insulted

but isn't this always the risk when you enter into a public discussion? Your article simply doesn't hold water and seems designed to make others feel guilty because they don't agree with your strong personal belief(s). I don't think anyone here would condemn someone who went to risk their lives in order to make the world a "better" place but could you name one American military campaign of, say, the last 50 years in which young people were sent to die in order to make it possible for you to drink a milkshake and watch the sunset? Who in Vietnam, for example, was threatening your way of life? Or Iraq?

You are angry because of your personal links with the military and experiences with veterans. Nowhere do you condemn the people who sent these veterans around the world for political purposes which had little or nothing to do with preserving freedom in the US. Instead you condemn people who object to young Americans being killed for no justifiable reason just because they don't join you in your "God bless the USA" view of things.

I really think you're angry at the wrong people here.

[in_cog_ni_to]

165. Amanda, PLEASE, I'm begging you, DON'T LEAVE DU! We and ESPECIALLY

THE VETS NEED YOU HERE! Use your IGNORE button! It can be your best friend. Please stay. :cry:

[Neshanic]

166. Veteran/troop bashing? I do not see any here, Just plain truth.

As the son of a WWII veteran, who had taken care of my father daily, while working out of my house, I think that you may be off base on this one.

My father died in April, and I was the one that did all the things that made him comfotable; bathing, changing, shaving him, feeding him. He was the bravest man I know. Shot up in Africa, Italy, jumping out of planes.

He told my brother one night in 1968 that he would send him to Canada before he was sent to Vietnam.

Is that troop bashing?

By the strange turn of events that only could be descibed as a national nightmare, we are now at war for no reason, lead by a nitwit, who really is a shill for a rightwing wave of corporations, special interests, and relgious fundamentalism.

This nitwit does not DESERVE the men and women we have for defending this country. This nitwit by HIS actions has disrespected our military by installing his creepy puppets.

I have seen no troop bashing. On the contrary, we are the ones that support them the most. WE know that they are not a disposable item. the Right Wing thinks otherwise.

[Totally Committed]

233. No Vet Bashing?

Are you serious? Let's be honest -- Go to any thread about Wes Clark, and read the out-and-out lies and smears that are ALWAYS there. It's disgusting. And, no, it's not all "trolls".

TC

[IndianaGreen]

168. I won't put a "Support our troops" magnetic ribbon in my car

and I won't sit here and pretend that our troops are doing God's work in Iraq. I won't be a good German and cheer the troops as they invade another hapless country, as we will probably do in Venezuela, and exonerate them for their actions because "they were following orders." I thought we dealt with that excuse at the end of World War II.

Now if what I just said is military bashing in your book, then that's too bad, and I beg to strongly disagree with you.

[0007]

197. I'll second that!!

[Malva Zebrina]

170. I have read some of your posts over time

Amanda,and some of them were very nice, but I disagree with many of your points in your essay.

. I think one of the reasons we see bright eyed bushy tailed youngsters eager to sign up and be in the military without really being aware politically of what they are signing up for, is the romanticizing of the military career and the military man, and believe that has got to stop. To me, that seems what you are doing in that essay.

Do we need a military? Absolutely to defend our country, but not to advance imperialistic desires of greedy men. To defend our country--ONLY, is my take on the need for a military. Pre-emptive war, or the sad Bush (and Sharon) doctrine, does NOT bring me the freedom to put my children on a school bus, or go out to the movies and dinner or walk the streets. In fact, it does more, and has done more to take away many freedoms. There is much more to be said about the essay, but I will stop, because I am really weary of the word "freedom" and it is just repeated too many times in that piece. It is being tossed around as if it came from one of Bush's speechwriters, when it's meaning is unclear. I am also weary of the "support the troops" meme because it has been overused by Republicans wishing to imply liberals are traitors so I refuse to use it.

Sometimes, it is better to leave a place if there is that much frustration with getting the point you wish to make across. There are many many people here with many different views, but I have not noticed an overall, concentrated villification of all the troops worthy of hanging that accusation on DU as a whole. Perhaps you are upset because there is not the degree of utter dedication you seem to have and expect the same from DU members.

I understand your committment, Amanda and your impassioned zeal. There are one thousand ways to wash dishes. Perhaps you will find another place better suited and can be happy there.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

173. Very well said. Thank you. n/t

[Illinois_Dem]

171. As a vet, I'm asking you to please stay.

There will always be the nutcases who say things such as those you allude to, but it is my perception that the vast majority of posters here support the troops themselves; their disagreement, in the main, is with the POTUS/CIC.

[cmd]

172. Please reconsider

Don't let the others make decisions for us.

[Misunderestimator]

175. I'd be sorry to see you go, but if I were you I would just ignore those

threads that make you feel this way for a while instead of leaving. Not everyone at DU thinks the same things or says the same things, and the majority defend veterans, as I'm sure you know.

Blaming us all (saying "DU") for this is short-sighted. Normally, I'd think "don't let the door hit you on the ass..." when someone says they are leaving this site, but since it's you, I'll take the time to ask you to stay. It's a diverse mix of people, many of whom share your most passionate ideals. You won't find this elsewhere. I hope you won't leave and I hope you won't leave thinking these horrible things about all of us. Take care and keep up the fight! :hi:

On edit... There were a few weeks right after the election when it seemed to me that the entire site had turned to blaming gays for losing the election. I took some time away and didn't spend much time here, but eventually I started venturing in again, and when I saw one of the posters that had been bashing gays, I clicked the ignore button. I had a lot of people on ignore for a while. The important thing is to be able to see past the people who offend us to all those who support and enlighten and teach. There are many, many more in the second category.

[scarletlib]

176. Dear Vet Wife:

Please don't go. You do tremendous work for our vets and your input is needed here on DU.

My husband and son are both former marines so I can say honestly that I support the troops even though I oppose the wars that are happening now.

The troops are the pawns in bushcos' little wars of aggression and I understand that the overwhelming majority of them feel obligated to honor their commitments to the service and nation. Even though, obviously, this govt. and nation is not truly keeping its promises to them.

I can also say that the overwhelming majority of the troops try to do the right things in the situations in which they are put. Sad to say however that since they are all human beings that there are those who do have evil, brutal tendencies. This war, like all wars will, sad to say bring out the worst of these characteristics in some individuals. Those individuals must then be held to account for their actions. The fact of pointing out those individuals is not wholesale condemnation of the troops.

God knows, I hope this country will not abandon these people. They are all going to need our love and support when they finally get home. Since I believe that we can all be forgiven; that we can all change and grow, I would not abandon even those who do knowingly let the evil within them control their actions in the war. Every one who comes home will have memories to deal with. All will need our support as they try to resolve what happened to them and get on with their lives.

Again, I state that your input is needed here. DU is open to all who are honest and seeking truth and justice.

You are a truth seeker and one who speaks for justice for our Vets. Please don't leave us.

[kcwayne]

186. Chicken Feathers!

During WWI, many women in Britain took up the practice of giving chicken feathers to young men they saw who were not in uniform. It was a fashionable way to chastise men for cowardice and a lack of patriotism to join the Great War as it was called.

Millions of men lost their lives in that bit of insane foolishness and stupidity. Most were funneled into the war through propaganda that called on people to sacrifice for honor and patriotism. Millions of people lost their lives over polly-anna ideals.

WWI was hardly a fight over freedom. In order to coerce the US public into support of the war, the US government rescinded freedom though passing of laws such as the Sedition Act. The government used cynical and highly organized propaganda to demand compliance from its citizens and to motivate young men to waste their lives in the maelstrom of the trenches in France. It wasn't that tough of a job. When the Army surveyed its conscripts it found a majority of them had not gone beyond the third grade and were illiterate.

WWI was the last gasp of a world ruled by inbred royalty that were intellectually and morally lacking, yet unfortunately had the tools of power to exert their will. They were miserably unprepared to understand the level of death and destruction that the Industrial Age enabled with technological advances in weaponry. And they took their 18th century intellects into a 20th century war that ultimately led to the deaths of 100 million people by the time WWII was finished.

The point of this didactic is to reflect on those women in England with their chicken feathers. They were supporting the troops. Yet they were not sufficiently engaged on an intellectual, ethical, or moral level to the consequences of blind support of the military to realize the great harm on their fellow man they were participating in.

Propaganda is far more insidious and effective when it comes from your neighbor and family.

[kcwayne]

203. Oops... posted at wong location in thread

This should have been posted at the top level in response to vetwife. Sorry...

[muchacho]

178. hmmm

Well I've been here for three years and I have yet to read anything like "vet bashing". But if we are talking about the current unpleasantness in Iraq some soldiers, and their commanders and ultimately Rumsfled are at fault.

Mai Lei did happen...so It's not all cut and dry.

[Totally Committed]

179. Amanda...

Please feel free to come to Wes Clark's DU Group, and talk up Vet's issues all you want! We adore our vets there because, our candidate is one, himself -- and -- he loves and respects men and women in uniform while they serve, and respects and honors them after they have served.

Again, there you would be most welcome.

TC

[tinanator]

180. Support the Truth

and freedom (of speech among others)
otherwise its
1,2,3,4 What are we fighting for?
Dont ask me I dont give a damn, its just another Vietnam.

[Paradise]

183. I have NEVER, in my lifetime, bashed the military

NOR have I EVER experienced military bashing on DU!

[0007]

187. Please put up some links to what your referring to as military bashing

It appears that your more interested in your photo gallery than presenting your case.

[bigtree]

189. damnit!

you know, I was just looking in. I'm taking a much needed break from this board. I think I absorbed a few too many of the negative comments and painted the whole group here with my despair.

I want to tell you how proud it made me feel to have someone who called herself vetwife on this board. It made me feel like we were doing something here that actually touched the lives of the soldiers who are sacrificing so much for the policies of a madman, and desperately need our advocacy and support. It pains me that some folks just couldn't hold their thoughts and respect our troops as they are under fire and dying daily and getting maimed daily. I don't want some jackass debate about how I feel about soldiers and their duty from any of these detractors right now by the way. I just want to thank you and your husband for your service and sacrifice and wish you both well.

I watched Jim Nicholson, the new vet secretary on TV last night and I swear, he made me want to break my sabbatical and pop right back in here in defense of our vets and our returning soldiers as I listened to him make excuses why his boss couldn't, or wouldn't give our soldiers what they were promised. That's the reality that is most painful. The detractors on this board (few I believe, but vocal) are but an annoyance, as discouraging as it is to find such distain from folks whose causes you and I would work our tails off for in a heartbeat.

I know you folks will stay active and fighting for our brave troop's return home. I hope that you won't hesitate to jump right back in here and fire us up when you feel that you just can't bear the mistreatment of our soldiers, or the deepening of their manufactured, deadly missions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. Jump right back in as if you never left . . . cause I'll miss you. God bless our soldiers and you and your family as well.

[MadisonProgressive]

192. You are being melodramatic

Don't impune our entire DU based on a few nasty comments. I'm sorry you feel you have to leave, but it's not because of 99% of the good people on this site. I do not have a magnetic yellow ribbon on my car because it seems too many people use it as an excuse to do nothing to REALLY support the troops, which in my mind should be to get them the hell out of Iraq.

Sorry to see you go.

[bloom]

196. goodbye

Like your sig says, "Speak the truth ..look for the truth in all things".



I speak my truths - but they just happen to different from yours.

Everybody has their limits - it's good to recognize what they are.

I can only take so much pro-war glorification, myself. But you could be right that Democrats will have to embrace their inner warrior to win. Most of the national candidates seem to agree with you more than me.


peace

[Name removed]

198. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jonnyblitz]

200. I feel the same.

truly a pathetic stunt.makes one think it's not really about the vets.

[Kahuna]

204. Have you not read the posts on this thread? Vetwife has a lot of

supporters who don't believe that we will be better off without her. Please don't try to speak for all of DU.

[diamond14]

216. there will ALWAYS be people who enjoy being INSULTED...

and beg for more....I am not one of those....


obviously, this 'LOOK AT MY PICTURES' and pissing on DUers, just doesn't make me yearn for more....


DU will be much better off without the ARROGANCE and insults of those who want to leave.....

[bpilgrim]

201. you'll be missed

though free-speech is one of the most important freedoms your husband and many DU'ers fight for, in and out of uniform.

:hi:

peace

[NeoTraitors]

211. Vetwife-

When I first found this site your posts were some of the ones I most looked forward to reading. I had wondered where you had gone lately. Please don't stop posting on DU just because of a few disagreements with other posters.

I come from a family with numerous vets. Both of my Grandpa's and all of their brothers and brothers-in-law fought in WWII. I have always been so proud of them. I feel that a large percentage of DUers have great respect for our military.

Please stay and stand up for what you believe in. You and the rest of us would be better off together despite minor differences. If you must go, then very best of luck to you and your family!

[Trajan]

202. I don't see so much of this ....

As a matter of fact: very little of it ....

If you compare the number of 'military bashers' to the whole of DU, you MUST understand that there are very few here who 'hate' the military .... under 100, compared to the 70,000 or so who have graced these forums over the years ....

vetwife ? ... I understand your frustration with even those few, but perhaps you are overreacting ? ... Perhaps you are over-sensitive to those types, given your position in life, and are over-estimating the influence of an 'anti' military sentiment here at DU ? ...

I despise the party in power, and STRONGLY believe they are misusing the nation's military power .... Yet I advocate respect for our military personnel, if only because history bears out the fact that the US military is almost always respectful of humanity, even in the worst conflicts ....

History demands that any nation that intends to exist for very long provide for their own defense, lest they face the onslaught of savage humanity, which has proven itself time after time to exist in all times and places .... He who doesnt plan on defending themselves against the worst human beings will not last long in this crazy, brutal and animalistic world ....

That being said: Our military must go out of its way to protect innocent human beings, and I am not sure it has done so .... yet We cannot blame the rank and file soldiers for the faults of strategy and tactics, which are out of their own hands .... each should be measured by their own acts, and they should know the limits ...

Most of us here respect the US military as a necessary guard against man in his 'state of nature', and are proud of those who 'defend' us against real threats ...

But so many become confused with what is policy and what is instrument ... Policy is created by leaders, NOT soldiers .... and it is the POLICY that is wrong and inhumane ... The soldiers themselves, the instruments of policy, must act within the confines of international law when they conduct themselves ... and if they do ? .. they can be assured of our continued respect, even as we reject the Neocon policies which are forced onto the backs of our sons and daughters in the service ....

vetwife ? .. I appreciate your input here, and would hate to see you leave because a few human beings in DU say stupid things .... They are NOT the norm, and are perhaps confused about WHAT they hate: policy or instrument ?....

I say they hate the policy, and don't recognize the boundary between the rank and file soldiers and their civilian leadership ...

Please stay ..... We need you ....

[lonestarnot]

205. Well oh well, don't forget they volunteered to fight and kill in a war

based on lies. And one of those lies was to protect FREEDOM and liberty HERE. How stupid is that! NO WMD! Millionaires would pay to hunt other humans! See ya!

P.S. I am also a vet!

[Walt Starr]

206. Oh the DRAMA! This MUST BE the DUDQ thread of the year!

Don't let the door hit you in the ass. Just want to remind you, your buds over at CU are the ones who "mole" DU portraying caricatures of liberals so your buds over at CU are most likely the ones bashing troops and vets.

[lojasmo]

207. Goodbye, vetswife.

sheesh! :eyes:

[bling bling]

208. What is THIS supposed to mean?

"If any of you ever want to win another election, I suggest you read the article. I suggest you Thank a Vet."

I see the other site you've become cozy in has convinced you now that not only are the Democrats anti-family, anti-morals, anti-god, but we're also now anti-veteran?

Do you seriously fall for the Republicans on "that other website" telling you that WE'RE the anti-troops party when they're the ones who dissed and belittled veterans like John McCain, Max Cleland, and John Kerry. Or how about Rumsfeld telling the troops "you don't go into war with the army you want...." Or Rudy Guliani blaming the troops for the missing chemical stockpiles in Iraq.

Sure, you can comb through this site and find threads containing posts that aren't glorifying the troops. But you can comb through and find pretty much anything IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR, and I suspect that it exactly what you're doing. That's part of the game over there - to single out and highlight ONLY the threads that are over-the-top. And they accuse *us* of group-think. But if that's all it takes for you to paint the whole party as anti-military then why don't you say the same thing about the Republicans when they bash the troops? Why is the outrage only directed at us?

It's such a double standard it's unbelievable. I'm glad you've found a new underground among people who will happily chant how much they love the troops over and over, unless they happen to be Democratic troops, in which case bashing is fair game. And god help those same troops if they come back and voice any dissent against the war because they'll go straight from hero status to contemptible traitor and you know it.

[Misunderestimator]

214. Interesting

I occasionally peak in there and noticed a bit of coziness... didn't put the two together until your post... Very interesting.

[UTUSN]

I Am One Vet Who Doesn't Want to Be Thanked

As my hero Charlie RANGEL says, minorities are over-represented in the military because of economic circumstances. In many instances it is a form of indentured servitude, trading some years of one's life for future educational and employment benefits---with the gamble, that is, that one makes it.

As far as military bashing goes, I haven't seen much here, overtly. It's no secret that older Libs grounded in the anti-Vietnam era DID and DO have an anti-military bias ---AND IGNORANCE. It's no secret that CLINTON White House staffers treated military staff with contempt.

That said, my personal preference would be to continue seeing you, Vetwife, here. As far as your commitment and activism go, you are a gem. That said, I would hope that, outside DU (and the Dem party?), you would hold your fire about us and not give aid to our common enemies. If you have to choose between the occasional person who uses the phrase "baby-killers" and the Shrubbites, who would you want to win? I submit that that is the choice in its starkest form.

We are a conglomeration of many sub-groups---civil rights, social justice, labor, etc. Some of the sub-groups might have only a couple of things in common and not show much understanding of some other groups. I myself have been PC-slapped by individuals from a few DIFFERENT sub-groups. I don't believe something can be changed by abandoning it, only from within. Peace be to this house.

[Renew Deal]

213. I never felt it was that bad.

But then again, those posts don't stand out to me as much as you for obvious reasons. This forum has millions of posts. There is going to be all kinds of stuff posted. Don't let a few people speak for all of us. You have also gotten tons of support from here through the years. Does that not count for something?

[LizW]

218. Sorry to see you go

You have been a great asset here at DU.

However, I think you're painting all of DU as military-bashers, when the fault lies with a tiny fraction of posters.

You sound very hurt, and I am sorry for your pain and frustration.

[wicket]

219. I'll miss you vetwife!

Sorry to see you go :(

[shrike]

220. Everyone gets bashed sooner or later at DU

I won't mention specifics because that'll hijack the thread.

The only anger I've ever felt at the troops, and veterans, came out of the enthusiastic reception * and Rummy seem to get whenever they step among them. Sometimes I feel that if that many of them are "into" this war, then why should I lose sleep over them. (Please note, most of the time I don't feel that way at all.)

As for veterans groups, I can only observe what's going on in my area. The local VFW, etc., seem solidly pro-Bush and pro-war. They regard any dissent or anti-war opinion as near-treason. Again, I try very hard to understand, but it is difficult at times.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

222. I normally don't respond to these sort of threads, but I really hate to

see you go. It's the differing opinions that make this board what it is.

Take a breath and come back soon.

[shrike]

223. Amen n/t

[Deja Q]

224. Four things, madam (forgive me, but you're not going to like the TRUTH:)

1. I support the troops provided they don't do things such as the Abu Gharib "frat pranks". I do not support the people who deceived and manipulated them. (that doesn't mean that when one troop does something evil, I then hate the lot of them. That is not the case.)

2. Your excessive use of oversized pictures is unconsiderate for the DUers who do not have broadband. Nevermind the shallow ego you've just flaunted.

3. God bless the world. No fucking exceptions.

4. Free speech. That's a right given to us by the Constitution and by God. Grow up.

[elehhhhna]

229. Well put. And...

I think VW is stressed and pissed off and she pobably needs a break. As frustrating as the BA 's reign of terror is for all of us, it's got to be worse for people like her who are out there confronting it every day--face to face.

VW thank you for the hard work you do.
Come back when you miss us.

Elehhhna

p.s. cute Husband!

[Name removed]

226. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bling bling]

227. Yep. This is nothing but a "show and tell" thread. n/t

[Name removed]

230. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ohio_liberal]

238. With one post?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

239. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ohio_liberal]

241. I only looked at the profile

It says she joined on the 24th. I'll look around some more.

[ScreamingMeemie]

228. vetwife, I don't know you well, which will perhaps surprise you, but I

fear you have fallen into a trap set by those who have such a hatred for Dems and this website that they feel compelled to visit here everday. I don't know much of your "work", sorry, nor have I seen( and I post here daily) the intense hatred for the troops here. I have only seen that suggested on other websites. I am truly sorry that you feel this way, but it is truly your loss.

take care, Laura

[Mr_Spock]

232. Yeah, I almost never see anti-troops posts here - and when I do

those people are usually soundly criticized for their actions. No, you are falling for the troll traps - and I can only imagine it's because you are seeking them out - not a good plan. Sorry you have to go, but if you can't understand that their are trolls here from the other side who deliberately post this stuff to make DU look bad, then you probably shouldn't be here anyway.

[RetroLounge]

231. Before you leave, can you post more pictures

of YOURSELF????

Because it's obviously more about you than anything.

RL

[bush_is_wacko]

234. I'[m sorry you feel that DUer's of all people have engaged in military

bashing. I have not seen that here. As far as I'm concerned, and I believe MOST DUer's feel the same, the military isn't the problem, our Commander in Chief and Rumsfeld and other HIGH LEVEL officials who are not even engaged in actual fighting are the problem.

If you have read ANY military bashing on this site it would surprise me immensely if that bashing had anything to do with military personnel that wasn't involved acts of torture or abuse of prisoners.

I consider it a sign of support to ask that our government quit using our soldiers to fight their war for oil and greed. The troops are doing their job and that is what they are trained to do.

I support out troops and want to bring them home safe, sound and whole in mind and body. Unfortunately the "whole in mind and body" is not likely to happen if they have served time in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Please accept my apologies for any military bashing post here at DU that has not been defended on our military's behalf! It is appalling to me to think a DUer would call these men and women criminals!

[mzmolly]

235. Vetwife, I really hope you'll stay. We need voices like yours that

counter the BS. I don't know ANY liberals who trash the military, and we really should be leary of those here that do. Their motives may not be as they appear.

Many freaks pose as "dirty liberals" here and say inflamatory things.

By the way, my dad is a vietnam vet. He'll be the first to tell you that he fought for a worthless cause and the war was bloody unnecessary. He'll also tell you that he resents the fact that "poor" kids went off to die and be destroyed, while the majority of their wealthy counter parts went off to college.

Also remember, John Kerry served in the MILITARY, and received overwhelming support from Liberals/Greens/Inde's/Democrats. George Bush is a coward, and his worshipers are as well.

We have MANY people here who served posting as members here as well.

Don't let a few bad apples drive you off VW. If we all did that, no one would remain.

:hug:

I personally hope you'll reconsider. :hi:

[Career Prole]

237. Take care, Amanda. God bless you in your work!

I'll miss you.

[Q]

243. I've seen lots of DUers...

...bashing the Bush administration for being WAR CRIMINALS....but few suggesting the 'troops' are such...except for those who have actually committed war crimes and are being prosecuted.

It's too bad that you have joined with those who think wanting accountability for those fighting wars 'in our name' equates with bashing or hating the troops in general.

You have become an unwitting propaganda tool for the right.

[Moderator]

244. Locking.....

This has turned into flamebait and there
were many personal attacks.



DU Moderator