As a proud Vet, I'm the first to attack those who disparage the soldiers.

[trumad]

Oh sure, in a forum with a membership of 60,000 plus, you're gonna have a few idiots/trolls that will diss/BASH the individual soldier in the American Military. First off, they have the right to do that.... but then again, I have a right to smack them upside the head for doing it. (AND I DO!)

But you know, I can honestly say that in my 3 plus years of posting at DU, I've seen very little of DUers going after soldiers doing their duty in the U.S Military. Now...if that individual soldier posed for a Polaroid while giving a thumbs up sign as they stood over the tortured bodies of Iraqi's, well, that makes them fair game. They deserve the wrath of this forum...and they do get it.

Ya see...there's a difference when DUers attack the military. When we attack the military, we attack the policy of the military that has been generated by a regime that we throughly despise. If we attack an individual soldier or a group of soldiers here at DU, there's a damn good chance they deserved it.

As I said up above, It's a rare occurrence here at DU when a poster bashes the individual soldier.

[Solly Mack]

1. True

[kaitykaity]

2. Oh, it's here.

"Is it possible to be a soldier and be a good human being?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3115521

[trumad]

6. What I see is 85 votes to 15

that poll says a lot...

Again, to paint DU with a broad brush is silly... It's as if some forget what a troll is...

[kaitykaity]

8. This attitude is marginal here, sure.

But that one example was egregious enough (although
it did get locked) that I think it's a bigger problem
than you're suggesting. I've seen our kids called war
criminals or worse just for putting on the uniform.
much less following orders to do horrible things.

As a vet myself, I blast it whenever I see it, but
I can understand how it could get frustrating.

[WeGotBTK]

53. it sure is!

[Maraya1969]

3. How do you feel about the President's decision to invade Iraq?

And thank you for you service.

[trumad]

4. LOL

Wow...I've never been asked that here at DU....

It would be awful hard to be a contributing member here at DU if I was pro war. Nah..I've read to many Will Pitt books to be pro war.. ;-)

[CRK7376]

12. As a active duty soldier and DU member

I support what we are doing in Afghanistan. OBL came out of there etc...but Iraq...oil, threats against daddy and no nukes....Disgusting that we went into the quagmire of Iraq....

[diamond14]

30. and many who are LUCKY enough to get back, end up like this (PHOTOS)

homeless Veterans sleeping in Washington DC....over 9500 homeless Veterans now live on the streets of OUR Capital...no food, no jobs, no bathrooms, injured by OUR wars, shell-shocked, agent-oranged, depleted uranium damaged, amputations that need medical care, blind and deaf from explosions, war wounds that got badly infected, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)...getting older just makes war wounds (both mental/physical) get WORSE....OUR soldiers need rehabilitation counselors, mental health counselors, Veterans Administration HOSPITALS with good funding, career counselors, jobs, housing, and DIGNITY....


abandoned by the bushites, these are bush* DISPOSABLE HEROES...








and this...PURPLE HEARTS: BACK FROM IRAQ....
living in cars, trailers, and their parents house...badly damaged, needing medical/mental health care....it won't be long before these bush* DISPOSABLE HEROES join the others on the sidewalks of America...

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0412/purplehearts_intro.html


"I lost my left leg, just below the knee. Lost my eyesight, which is still unsettled about whether it will come back or not. I have shrapnel in pretty much every part of my body. Got my finger blown off. It don't work right. I had a hole blown through my right leg. Had 3 skin grafts to try and repair it. It's not too bad right now. It hurts a lot, that's about it. You know not really anything major. Just little things. I get headaches. I have a piece of shrapnel in my neck that came up through my vest and went into my throat and it's sitting behind my trachea, and when I swallow it kind of feels like I have a pill in my throat. Some stuff like that. And my left ear, it don't work either.

Spc. Sam Ross, 21, combat engineer, 82nd Airborne Division, was injured May 18, 2003 in Baghdad when a bomb blew up during a munitions disposal operation. He is blind and an amputee. Photographed in the woods near his trailer where he lives alone in Dunbar Township, Pennsylvania October 19, 2003.

[Deja Q]

37. Our wars. The last three of which caused by people WE HELPED.

Iraq 1. Iraq 2. "War on terror" (aka Afghanistan/OBL)

I pity the troops, whose lives have been ruined by oil-drinking neocons of the last 25 years. It's heart-wrenching, truly.

[Trajan]

32. Welcome to DU , CRK ....

Good to have you aboard ....

[Deja Q]

36. Wrong country and circumstances, please tell me why...

Please tell me why you believe Afghanistan is unequivocally a proper target in this "War on terror"? If 4 of the 19 came from Afghanistan then it's justified...

The OBL and GWB families have a history together:

While I support going after Saudi Arabia, which is where OBL and 15 of the 9/11 hijackers came from, nobody seems to want to question *'s ties with OBL, never mind how or why * had BL family members flown out of the US after 9/11.

That's a serious question regarding the morality of those in power. The actions don't add up. Why weren't the OBL family questioned instead of freely flown out of the country?

I'm sure Afghanistan and the proposed oil pipeline talks that failed before 9/11 have relevance in this "war on terror". But I'm tired of Americans not asking real questions about what's going on, and asking why any questions that had been asked had been ignored. Doesn't that bother you as well?

I am not denying OBL isn't a threat and that we need to properly defend ourselves. Ditto for Al-Quaeda (one-time Mujahedeen). But the US helped these same people during the 1980s. Add up the world history of the last 25 years and you'll see something's going on that doesn't make the US lily-white either.

And if we could get Saddam so quickly, how come OBL is still loose?

Why did GWB, on 9/13/01 say he'd go after OBL and such... but then on 2/13/02 say that OBL no longer interested in him?

I only care about the unfettered truth and our leaders being held accountable for ethical or moral decisions, or if those decisions prove to be unethical or immoral.

[mmonk]

5. No problem with the service people,

I'm the son of a WW II vet. I do have issues with certain members of the command that are part of this new outlook for US foreign policy and will say so.

[Demit]

7. "Supporting the troops", definition of: seems to me that's what is at the

heart of the discord here and in this country since the invasion of Iraq. What does it mean?

I am really interested to know what is supposed to be meant by it. There was a big push to "support the troops" right after the invasion. I remember yelling at the television (first of many times in the past 2 years) HOW? What do you MEAN by that? Send them canned goods? Write to them? Nobody on television ever defined it.

Even now--what does the phrase mean? What form does it take, or is it supposed to take, to people who exhort us to "support the troops"? Has anyone here ever challenged a freeper to explain what he means by it?

I am really curious to know. Has anyone here ever used the phrase, sincerely, in a heartfelt way, and can you tell me what it means to you? Can you tell me, if you support the troops, how it is that you do that?

[G_j]

9. good question

I do know those ribbons haven't saved a single life, not one.

[tsuki]

10. Here is what I posted last night, about support the troops.

It takes, on average, a year for a disabled vet to get his benefits.
One third of the homeless are vets. VA hospitals and benefits are disappearing. Now we are charging for "lost rifles" when they lose them because their hand is gone. There is a plan afoot to "self-insure" a soldier getting disabled by making it a payroll deduction. David Chu, Pentagon Spokesman, has nothing good to say about Vets. They are what is wrong with the military.

Going around loudly shrilling, I support the troops, while cutting and ignoring them when they get home is "trashing the troops." A favorite past-time of the Republican Party

[Demit]

13. I know! There's a disconnect there. People who are rabid supporters

of * don't seem to be disturbed at his treatment of vet issues--or active duty soldier issues, like the lack of armor. But I haven't read anything of any writer anywhere trying to get answers from people like that, in how they explain the discrepancy.

It drives me insane that this phrase is bandied about as if everybody knows what it means, and I don't.

[tsuki]

20. I sometimes wonder if Mom is not right. She says that a nation

cannot understand war and the effects of war if they are not engaged. During her childhood, WWII, the big one, there were few automobiles on the road. Many were in garages on cinder blocks for the duration. Gas was necessary for the war. Victory gardens were common. Food was needed for the troops. Chocolate and sugar were rationed. The girls used eyebrow pencils to draw a line up the back of their legs to make it look like they had on stockings. Everyone worked for the defense. Supported the USO. Bought war bonds. Everyone had members in the service.

There is such a disconnect between the war and the general populace. It is like, okay, I've got my yellow ribbon, I've done my part, that's all I am willing to do, now let me hop in my SUV and buy some Chinese crap.

It is driving me crazy. You write letters, you get a form letter back about spreading democracy. My county email list is full of retired veterans. They have, for want of a better term, a kind of cognizant dissidence about the treatment of the veteran today. It's like there are National Guard, not the real military.

I don't know what to do other than keep writing, and speaking out, donating to a good cause when I have some extra.

I will be in New Orleans on March 19th to protest. Bring our boys home.

[AnnInLa]

27. See ya in N'awlins on the 19th, TSUKI

When I go to New Orleans for the protest on the 19th, I will be marching against policy, not against individuals. Here in LA, many young people join the military because it is their ticket to a better life, economically. (similar to MM's point about youngsters in Flint, MI)

[tsuki]

44. Dad was from Alabama. Grew up in the 30's and 40's. It was his

ticket out, and a better life for his family. Son and I, and anyone else from my area will be there. Bring Them Home.

[MichiganVote]

58. National Gurad is the "real" military

[Solly Mack]

15. When my govt. says "Support the Troops", I hear "somebody needs to

because we are going to screw them"

When Jane or John Q Public say it? Well, depending on how they vote I either hear "I'm nothing but a hypocrite" or "Bring them Home. Give them Armor.Feed them. Give them water. Don't slash their benefits.No more illegal wars.Stop misusing the troops. Stop using them for lies."

When I say it? My husband is a soldier. I support him in many ways. My support is of a very personal nature...as is the support between couples in any relationship. When he was in Iraq my support took the form of care packages and a lot of worry and sleepless nights. In addition to food drives and fund raisers to help the families back home.

Everyone that's been here for more than a coupla of years knows how I feel about the Boy Blunder and his illegal wars. They know I don't support soldiers who commit war crimes....nor do I support their civilian chain of command. I don't support the "kill the ragheads" mentality in anyone.

I don't consider Iraq or Afghanistan a war to protect my freedoms. I don't blame the soldiers for that. I blame my government.

[kbm8170]

19. Without trying to sound disrespectful. . .

When I think about the soldiers over there, I think about a gay acquaintance of mine who recently was shipped overseas, knowing that he has to live in the closet the entire tour AND serve in a country that is even more hostile to people like him than this one seems to be this year. But I also think about how much courage it takes to support and serve a country where your commander-in-chief advocates a constitutional amendment prohibiting you from ever being recognized for loving anyone. There has been one estimate that there are likely up to 65,000 gays serving in our military - those who have partners are not allowed any kind of support from community groups (ya can't support a family that the military pretends doesn't exist) and many have to very carefully correspond with their loved one stationed overseas.

You compound that with the fact that the second largest military force in Iraq (the British) not only allow gays to serve openly but the nation has recently passed national legislation allowing civil unions. This means that partners can share quarters in the military and even have ceremonies performed that are recognized. So our gay troops get to watch their British counterparts living a "free" life while they remain shackled to an archaic and ridiculous policy based on nothing more than shower insecurity.

Given the fact that there has been at least one documented case in which an allegedly heterosexual married U.S. soldier has murdered an Iraqi comrade (in a gay-panic rage after having sex with him, of course), I see no problem at all criticizing both our military policy and any individual soldier who demands that "unit cohesion" is entirely dependent on what a peepee points to in everyday life.

[Misunderestimator]

23. Welcome to DU.... good post.

[Solly Mack]

24. That was not disrespectful in any way

I happen to agree. We have a lot of gay and lesbian friends in the military. Those that can (NCO and above)live off post with their partners. It's criminal that they aren't recognized as a couple, with full legal rights.

I criticize both military policy and individual soldier all the time.
I have no qualms about it.

Welcome to DU!!!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. That's a good question

as a person who marched against the war in the early months of 2003, I felt it was very important that I show that I supported the troops but not the Bush policy. In fact, at the last rally, I had a huge sign saying so. (It was funny-people driving by would start to give us the finger, then see my sign and stop, looking very confused!)

Soon after the war started, our local Guard unit was activated. They were NOT given proper equipment, and the families set about raising money. I contributed, told the folks I was praying for the soldier's safe return, and that I was against the war but not against the troops. I have contributed since then to help troops get proper equipment. I have written my congressmn about the lack of care for returning vets and have encouraged others to do the same. I have written LTTE in my local weekly on the same topic. Until recently, I had a yellow ribbon bumper sticker-this one wasn't purchased for 99 cents at Wal-Mart, but from the Guard families, and the donation was more than a buck as well. But since I've seen a proliferation of what I call "fake" ribbons (because the money didn't support the troops), I took off the ribbon.

I'm thinking of creating a flyer talking about how Bush hasn't supported the troops and placing it under the windshield of any car I see sporting a Bush sticker (and there are a lot of them here in Arkansas). Haven't gotten the information together yet to make it succinct. But I will continue to really support the troops.

[TahitiNut]

28. As long as "the troops" are "they" we're not a democratic nation.

Democracy is participatory, not a caste system nor a system of hirelings. Altogether too many seem to assume it's 99% "for the people" and less than 1% "of the people" and "by the people." We "let George do it." We have virtually all professional politicians. We have virtually all professional military. That's not even an approximation of "democratic."

[Stone_Spirits]

43. hear, hear!

That is something to seriously think about.

[DemBones DemBones]

61. I agree with that. Why shouldn't everyone -- girls, too -- do national

service?

[TahitiNut]

64. Male, female, straight, gay, abled, disabled ... everyone.

Fifteen to forty-eight months, depending on choice of service ... with possible reactivation (by lottery) in the event of a national emergency which requires a manpower increase.

Since virtually everyone would have basic military training and remain part of an inactive reserve until age 40, militarist adventurism would be anathema to the general public and true national emergencies would be met with a ready and trained force. I'd also call for active duty rotation of senior officers and NCOs and discourage 100% career militarists. The "total immersion" of a human being in an authoritarian subculture is a corrupting influence, imho.

[liberal N proud]

11. Never the soldier but the leaders that have commanded them from the top

Those who sit in an arm chair and order our young men and women into harms way with little regard to their well being. Those are the ones that deserve our fury.
The individual soldier is doing his job, he has been told to go and do what he is doing, it what he is doing is wrong, it falls on the shoulders of the man or men who told gave him his orders.
I come from a family with a long military history, I am the only member that has not served in the military and my brothers look down on me for that, never the less, I look up to them and what they have done for our country.
It is the so-called commander in chief and secretary of defense and those that advise them that are at fault in this illegal war, not the soldier.

[Padraig18]

14. It's rare, but the failure to condemn it bothers me a lot.

We're always screaming about 'speaking out' on all sorts of issues, and rightly so, but let some loon or troll make a post trashing our soldiers and the silence is almost deafening.

[H2O Man]

17. Well said.

I think it would be wonderful if we lived in a world where militaries were not needed .... a world perhaps best described by John and Yoko in their song "Imagine."

But we don't live there yet.

I do not support the Bush administration. I do not have any interests in common with Halliburton. But I never confuse them with what is great about America.

When military recruiters call to speak to my sons, I have no problem being polite to them, and saying that while I think it can be noble to serve in the military, that because of the current administration, I siscourage my sons from considering serving at this time.

That does not keep my family from praying daily for the safety and well-being of the American military. We also pray for the other victims of the evil of the Bush policies. And we pray for the light of the universe to open the eyes and ears of those people doing the evil.

The military should not be considered our enemy, and I think it is important to have posts & threads on here to remind people of that. The military is made up of the young people that were on our high school football and basketball teams a few years ago. Same kids, just a few years older.

Likewise, we need to remind ourselves that the United States isn't a bad place, while still recognizing that there is clearly a great deal of "bad" things going on right now .... both in and because of some of the people in power today. But America remains the great hope of human-kind, and every day, we have the opportunity to do the things that can help us reach our potential for good.

[Malva Zebrina]

18. See the problem here is

that 100,000 civilians have been killed, and many of them children, blown apart. We see the pictures often on DU.

Next logical conclusion is that someone shot the gun, dropped the bombs, aimed the missiles and that person is a soldier, most likely an American soldier, but could be a Brit also.

Next thought progression--But--American troops or Brit troops must be supported

reason: they are only following orders and often times we see adjectives such as brave applied, and we should support them.

That support the troops slogan was one of cleverest PR techniques ever to come out Rove's office and everybody jumped on without thinking but in an effort to distance themself from the accusation of being a traitor or un American. Bought right into Rove's playbook without stopping to think and now have to qualify their support the troops slogan with lengthy explanations.

But to get back to the reason--following orders. Here is where cognitive dissonance comes into play for me. We know Bush doesn't actually pull triggers, drop bombs or Rumsfeld or any of the others who caused this war to occur, and even though we can rightfully blame those war criminals, we still must grapple with the fact that someone does do the killing,and it is the soldier-- but we must find an excuse for that because our brains cannot work around it being patriotic Americans reluctant to appear ungrateful.

That is the dilemma--not so much a blame, but an actual dead end or barrier in the thought process.

I am not saying I don't want soldiers to come home soon, be afforded their rightful due, as far as compensation goes, have families be reunited, have empathy with the maimed and the families of the dead warriors, but trying to point out a dilemma that may give pause to some as they try to think it through and don't make much progress.

[Solly Mack]

21. Exactly. It's an very painful moral dilemma for a lot of people

Excruciating even.

My husband is a soldier. He served in Iraq.

I had to go through knowing in my heart I can't support the invasion of Iraq...just can't. Not won't support it....can't support. I can't support the death of people in an illegal invasion built on lies and not in the defense of this country.

I told my husband at one point I rather he died than to have him kill someone in an illegal war. I also told him I wanted him to survive this cluster fuck. I was in turmoil. I still am. I know a lot people who feel that same way. Finally, before he left, I said, "keep your honor, your integrity and cling to your humanity at all costs...to come home safely but not at all costs(death before dishonor and all that)." It was a bitter departure for the both of us. He didn't want to go (we'd discussed all our options..to include "leaving"...and then settled on what was best for us), he doens't support Bush, and felt the invasion was wrong on many levels...and he left a wife behind who could not put her heart behind what he was doing or where he was going. My heart went with him, the person...not with him, the soldier, the mission, or the "duty" some like to talk about.(he never did)

Bitter tears all around. There's a lot of pain and suffering in people because of Bush and his lies. I will not fault anyone living through this nightmare..we are all trying to cope and come to grips with it.

[i miss america]

59. Hopefully your husband is home safe and you and he won't have to

go through that terrible experience again.

Maybe one day soon we'll have a real president who understands right from wrong and the value of human life.

You, your husband and all military families nothing less.

[Misunderestimator]

22. I was too busy scratching my head while reading the other thread...

when you posted this. I couldn't agree more. Soldiers do not have carte blanche to act without humanity, and I will criticize those who do. A soldier is still a human being and has free will... to follow illegal orders is cause for disdain from us. That said, I feel for those soldiers who do not understand why they are there, those who are trapped by their circumstances and cannot leave, those who will forever be negatively affected mentally, and for the families of those soldiers who are maimed and killed.

I will not however, EVER support this war.

[bush_is_wacko]

25. Very true. However, EVEN the soldiers that were stupid enough to

allow their pictures to be taken got their orders from on high! Soldiers aren't immune to their own brainwashing techniques and those that participated in that carnage responded to the same technique they have been taught to use on their captors.

Who trained those soldiers? THAT is the person/people that needs to be exposed, investigated, and prosecuted. The soldiers that did the deeds are just pawns!

[Misunderestimator]

26. Those particular soldiers are not just pawns...

they are not required to follow illegal orders... if they had read the Geneva Conventions as they are supposed to (and as any soldier should feel it his duty to read), they would have known that what they were being asked to do was illegal. In fact, I believe it is required that they DO NOT follow illegal orders.

I don't reduce the individual soldiers to cogs... they each have free will, just as you and I... they each have a conscience and they each make individual choices.

You know the ones that I admire the most? The ones who are sitting in jail or standing trial for refusing to serve in this illegal war.

[lonestarnot]

29. Amen bother! Jail rather than fight this bullshit war for the chimp n/t

[bush_is_wacko]

54. Oh, I agree that those soldiers need to be prosecuted, in addition to

those that gave them the orders. it doesn't really matter to me if they themselves were victims of brainwashing. they did what they did and they need to pay the price for it. I was really just trying to make the point that they DID get orders from people higher up. They wouldn't have done it otherwise. We can't just stop at convicting those that were pictured committing the crimes though. That does EVERYBODY a disservice!

I too think those sitting in jail are to be commended! But you have to understand, most of them have had the benefit of time to know the decision they were making was a wise one and many of those men and women are also "old-timers" not gung-ho 18 year olds that have just been programmed as government assassins.

If you know any man or woman that has been through boot camp and/or served in the military you should realize 6 weeks at boot camp is the equivalent of years being spoon fed rhetoric by a cult. The military has the brainwashing down to an exact science. They do a great job at that task. Very few military men and women are ever able to recognize that they underwent a prescribed brainwashing procedure, but those that do realize it are usually the best advocates for peace.

I have two uncles that served, one is still completely brainwashed and doesn't even recognize when he's being made to look like a fool because of his beliefs, the other is a peace activists and has been since the day he came home from his third voluntary tour of duty in Vietnam!

[Trajan]

31. I totally agree, Trumad ....

We really don't see so much of this here .... it is false to assert that DU is ANTI-Military ...

If you compare the number of 'military bashers' to the whole of DU, there are very few here who 'hate' the military, perhaps under 100 total, compared to the 70,000 or so who have graced these forums over the years ....

I despise the party in power, and STRONGLY believe they are misusing the nation's military power .... Yet most of us advocate respect for our military personnel .... Our military personnel must go out of its way to protect innocent human beings in all of their actions, and I am sure it hasnt always done so, but most soldiers act within the confines of the law and moral standards of behavior in times of conflict

So many become confused with what is policy and what is instrument, and this is the intentional goal of the administration and their party .... It is a dirty political trick to wrap the policies of ONE party in government with the prestige and legacy of the NATION'S military services ...

George Bush is NOT america ... The GOP is NOT america ... Yet to dissent against either is defined BY THEM as attacks against our military personnel ... or worse, as attacks against our own country ... This is an utterly fallacious construction: The President is only a citizen, he is not a whole nation, the ruling party is only a percentage of the population, not the 'entire nation' ... The GOP is MORE than happy to hear Democrats or Liberals denounce the USA, since this fits their goal of enmeshing the image of their party leader with the trappings of nationhood and state identity ...

I am PROUD to be liberal ..... I am PROUD to belong to the great experiment formulated by the likes of Locke, Rousseau, Paine, Jefferson and the rest of the masters of the enlightened epoch ...

I am PROUD to be an American .... and I am PROUD to let George Bush and his GOP supporters know that THEY are wrong: THEY are misuing our nation's prestige and power .... and to detest THEM is NOT 'hating america' ..... To speak out against THEIR policies is NOT an attack against the nation itself ....

I do NOT 'hate america' .... I do NOT 'hate the military' ...

But I reject with the FULL MEASURE OF MY BEING, the policies and arts of the party in power in our great nation .... They form 1/2 of our nation's population ... They are NOT the WHOLE nation ....

We do NOT 'hate america' when we criticise them .... We do NOT 'hate the military' when we reject the dangerous and irrational policies of the leadership ....

Bashing the military at DU ? ... sure: some do .... but there are very few true haters of the military ....

DU, as a whole, does NOT bash the military ....

DU is proud, on the whole, to support our men and women in uniform ...

They are not the problem .... George Bush and the GOP are the problem ....

[UTUSN]

34. Agreed, and to Vetwife

I am one vet who doesn't want to be thanked.

As my hero Charlie RANGEL says, minorities are over-represented in the military because of economic circumstances. In many instances it is a form of indentured servitude, trading some years of one's life for future educational and employment benefits---with the gamble, that is, that one makes it.

As far as military bashing goes, I haven't seen much here, overtly. It's no secret that older Libs grounded in the anti-Vietnam era DID and DO have an anti-military bias ---AND IGNORANCE. It's no secret that CLINTON White House staffers treated military staff with contempt.

That said, my personal preference would be to continue seeing you, Vetwife, here. As far as your commitment and activism go, you are a gem. That said, I would hope that, outside DU (and the Dem party?), you would hold your fire about us and not give aid to our common enemies. If you have to choose between the occasional person who uses the phrase "baby-killers" and the Shrubbites, who would you want to win? I submit that that is the choice in its starkest form.

We are a conglomeration of many sub-groups---civil rights, social justice, labor, etc. Some of the sub-groups might have only a couple of things in common and not show much understanding of some other groups. I myself have been PC-slapped by individuals from a few DIFFERENT sub-groups. I don't believe something can be changed by abandoning it, only from within. Peace be to this house.

[Totally Committed]

45. This has to be the post of the week!

Well-said....

Thank you so much for your thoughtful, and well-thought-out post!

TC

[Deja Q]

33. Bingo. It's a shame that some are too obtuse to understand that.

I dare not speak for all, but as I said in one particular other message, I support any troops that are moral and ethical. And if there is injustice committed by a troop or group of, anything I say gets targeted at the wrongdoers only.

What I do not support is the * administration's decision, based on proven lies and deception, to send our troops to Iraq in the first place. I can no longer trust * for any military-related issue and Europe had damn well figure that out too because * will likely deceive us all again.

Nor do I support the * administration's desire to cut vet benefits and have even our active soldiers pay for food and medical costs. That is outrageous and, forgive me, bordering on EVIL. (evil is far more than just taking an aeroplane and crashing it onto a ludicrously oversized building, duh.)

So if anyone wants to leave DU for making glib generalizations based on a few words that they never bothered to get clarification on, go right ahead. Just be considerate of dial-up users who have to wait to see a nominal quantity of big pictures appear in the message for no appropriate reason while damning/accusing EVERY DUer of glibly hating all the troops. :eyes:

[Just Me]

35. I have read far greater substantive support of our military than not.

It is a very rare post, indeed, that holds our soldiers responsible for being sent to this awful war rather than the corrupt, greedy, arrogant neoCONspirators who are fully responsible for creating this mess.

I find a "DU hates our soldiers" post pretty outrageous and very suspect.

[bigtree]

38. folks are hurt by the killing and the deaths of civilians and others

Buffy St.Marie put it in a song

UNIVERSAL SOLDIER
Buffy Sainte-Marie
© Caleb Music-ASCAP

She writes:

I wrote "Universal Soldier" in the basement of The Purple Onion coffee house in Toronto in the early sixties. It's about individual responsibility for war and how the old feudal thinking kills us all. Donovan had a hit with it in 1965.

He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
He's been a soldier for a thousand years

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an athiest, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn't kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for you

And he's fighting for Canada,
he's fighting for France,
he's fighting for the USA,
and he's fighting for the Russians
and he's fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way

And he's fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
and he never sees the writing on the walls

But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on

He's the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can't you see
this is not the way we put an end to war.

There is great honor and courage in refusing to fight and kill. But there are those soldiers who can't deal with the prospect of a court martial and a stiff term in military prison. I thought to publish some of the accounts from inside those prisons, especially from dissenters (brutal stuff, to be sure), but even though I have committed myself to the advocacy of troops and vets, I don't really wish to trample on the hurt and outrage expressed by those committed to peace and who wish for a day when we no longer need warriors or weapons. Great wish. Not likely I'm afraid. Very discouraging prospects for peace with these military industrial warriors in power.

I want those who oppose war and violence to continue to speak out, even though I would rather they not paint all soldiers with a broad brush of condemnation. One day, I fear, we will need and encourage these troops to protect and defend us against a real and menacing threat from somewhere. I don't believe that a solution to such a threat will be to lay down our arms. Oppression can last for decades, centuries even. I don't think it would be humane to leave the field, the country, and our citizens to such an invader or antagonist. That's been the traditional role of our military. Defense. Bush has transformed that notion to one of a military bent on domination and imperialistic expansionism and has relegated the diplomacy of our state department to a mere PR instrument for more war. This, I also fear, has increased the chances that our nation will again come under brutal attack. I want to continue to support the brave, mostly selfless soldiers who will pick up and sacrifice their lives and their livlihoods on behalf of those of us who are unable to defend ourselves. When we do manage to get back to the original, sane role of our military as a defensive body, then I suspect that we will see more than enough gratitude and support for our nation's soldiers. Until then I will respect the feelings of those who would argue and rail for a world without war or warriors. We can dream, and our dreams sometimes help us to reality. A world without war or warriors. Wow. What a dream.

[seabeyond]

39. i was going to reply to vetwife, thread locked......so unfair and wrong

bush has done this war wrong every step of the way. taking advantage of troops, ignoring needs of troops, abusing troops

many many on this site recognize this and have great concern for our troops. vetwife doesnt get to be the only one concerned for them. during the election repug create dems as anti troops and vets post just validate that, and it is so wrong and unfair. i am offended and dont get offended often. i spent a lot of time trying to get bush out. WHY>>>>>>......

for our troops.

all the things bush was doing wrong, top on my list was the troops. and this unfair war and the wars in the future. who else put in the time during election for this exact reason. as we were being called unamerican, not supporting troops, unpatriotic. and then here another is confirming this once again, one of our own

the hypocrisy, the wrong in this. because we put in the time to learn what is up, following the news from all sources and thinking about troops. creating packages for troops not supplied

it isnt the democrats that dont support the troops vetwife. you are wrong

the few that raise your dander, you have to be better than that. we have them attacking everything and everyone about every subject, do you notice. it is not the whole, and it is not who i am. dont give it to me. i dont want it

dont give it to me vetwife. what you did is wrong. once again, because of your own anger. you pinned it on me and many others on this board. like repugs have been doing all along.

[IndianaGreen]

55. vetwife was tombstoned when it was revealed she was a mod at CU

Also fellow DUer NSMA found some quotes from her that really tagged her as a rightwinger, despite her pictures and protestations.

Like Cinnamon Stillwell, the self-proclaimed "911 Republican" who has never written a single column that was remotely liberal. yet now you find Cinnamon Stillwell writing a piece saying that she is not longer a Democrat because of their blah, blah about the troops.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cooley Hurd]

41. I've not seen a chronic problem of vet bashing on DU...

...however, I do see the rightful frustration by many DUers over the way the US has conducted the Iraq war - torture, civilian casualties, etc.

What I find very troubling is that the charges of vet bashing by DUers were initially made by someone who posts frequently (and is possibly a moderator?) on a website devoted to disrupting DU. Sorry, but this seems really stinky to me.

[trumad]

46. Yeah... I've been reading the thread about that,,

The thread is now locked... but if indeed it is true, then shame on her.

[Misunderestimator]

48. It's true...

very recently they removed most of their history, but I personally read posts of hers in January, and it was clear that she was welcomed there with open arms.

[seabeyond]

49. was interesting reading

i had been reading regularly too. it was sad. much of it was sad. havent been able to have the access i had in the past

[trumad]

50. Then what she has done is use her errr beloved military

for her own ideological purposes. That in my mind is far worse than anything that a DUer has done. As a matter of fact, it's sickening.

[Misunderestimator]

51. I agree.... It's very sad.

I still think her heart is in the right place... it's just that she seems to have a need for unconditional support of the military... and that is not going to happen here... it will there.

[MADem]

56. She needs to get a grip then

There does not exist unconditional support for the military WITHIN the military, most times. Service personnel bitch all the time, about their chain of command, the duties they are tasked to perform, the quarters, the chow, the orders, the duty stations, you name it. If she's so devoted to the damn service, why doesn't she waddle down to the recruiter and become a dual-service couple, instead of simply a vetwife? She needs to put her money where her mouth is!

And I've earned my right to bitch--I am an American, I vote, I pay taxes, and I've got over two decades of service that gives me that right!}(

[Misunderestimator]

57. You're right... unfortunately...

it appears that she did not get a grip. Instead she's bought the RW rhetoric hook, line and sinker.

[seabeyond]

52. it is

the first round of the to do with this a couple months ago, i personally reached out. and the sadness of her action and then here i see that it is a manipulation of the same creation of all the dems dont support troop

i have so had it on people telling me i dont support troop

when we first went to war, how many of us felt the pain of these people, humans, going away from family, placed in such fear, tiredness and all we wanted for these people to be ok

all this time a pain in the heart for their hurt. and so readily dismissed

all the effort to bring out truth to help these people, and family and friends,..........and so readily dismissed

[Bouncy Ball]

42. I was curious so I just asked my husband what HE thinks

supporting the troops means and if he wants to be thanked, etc.

He said, "No, I don't need to have my ass kissed just so someone can pat themselves on the back and say they support the troops or veterans or whatever. Mostly I just want to be left the hell alone."

Remember, his words, not mine.

When I asked him about the yellow magnetic ribbons on cars (I can't believe I've never asked him about this before) and his opinion of them as a vet, he said: "Someone's just making money, that's all. If they really are donating any of that to the troops, they better prove it and I've never seen proof of it. They're just to make people feel good. Doesn't help the troops."

[Misunderestimator]

47. Saw a segment on a news show about the company that started the magnet

yellow ribbons... the profit was supposed to go to the military, however MOST of the magnet ribbons are knockoffs of those original (and more expensive) ones from China... and are sold for sheer profit.

[MADem]

60. You have a sharp husband

Of course, you are no slouch, either!

But he's quite right. In the military, the mindset is the mission. Not the why, not the how, not the history or politics of the mission, just the mission. Get it done, and on to the next one.

I have to wonder about people who get so damn insistent about "supporting the troops." Personally, having an extensive military history, I always looked askance at those who do the flag waving, tear in the eye, ready to boo-hoo at the death and mutilation, but unwilling to either volunteer themselves, or even ask the big question: why are we sending these kids, these volunteers who defend our nation, off to die? Is it worth it?

I have to admit, I don't like it when people bash a badly educated, formerly unemployed 19 year old kid in uniform for not having the world awareness of an old fart, or even a mid-grade diplomat, but even though I don't like it when people go after the "instruments of policy"--either as a group or as individuals-- instead of those giving the orders. I acknowledge that they have the right to their opinion, though, however misguided it may seem to me. Free country, and all that....so far, anyway!

I feel that the fish rots from the head, and we have a long tradition of CIVILIAN control of the military. Don't blame the uniforms, blame the chimp in chief!

[DemBones DemBones]

62. Waving a flag or putting a yellow ribbon on your car is EASY, much

easier than asking questions about what the civilians are making our military do.

A Military Brat

P.S. Was Vetwife ever a military wife? Or did she just marry a veteran? It makes a difference in a person's attitude.

[Skittles]

63. you know it, trumad

I've seen the occasional post that pisses me off but overall the sentiment on DU is pro-soldier/anti-neocon bastards misusing them.

[ElectroPrincess]

65. I agree with you Skittles ...

I also wonder, considering the intense *mean spirit* of the radical rabid right wing on the Net, how many of these disruptors may have a hidden agenda?

However, for a huge message board community, I feel welcome here as an army veteran, and would encourage others to join and participate in the discussion.

[shadowknows69]

66. I will bash the war, the leaders and

soldiers that don't uphold the ideals of the majority of our men and women in uniform and make things harder on the rest of them (IE Abbey Grape)never the ones there doing a job becuase they have been ordered to. I support the troops by wanting them to come home and stop dying for the folly of our politicians.

[IrateCitizen]

67. This is an incredibly personal issue for me, for several reasons...

About 2-1/2 years ago, I was an officer in the Army Reserve. I also had become opposed to militarism over time after becoming an activist on trade issues, because as I conducted my economic and historical research, I began to draw the links between economic exploitation, authoritarianism, and military intervention. I had initially signed my contract as an ROTC cadet believing that the US was a force for good in the world, the "beacon of freedom" that stood unerringly on the side of human rights, democracy, justice, and against tyranny. I began to see more and more that my service in the military was not truly helping to further those ideals, but in many ways was working against them.

Prior to the invasion of Iraq, realizing that I was truly faced with a Hobson's choice, I finally decided to follow my conscience and filed for discharge as a conscientious objector. I was honorably discharged on Sept. 1, 2004.

Since that time, I have become VERY involved in the antiwar movement and the veterans movement against the war. I've joined Iraq Veterans Against the War. I helped co-found a CO support network, www.peace-out.com. I engage in regular speaking engagements and even have become involved with UFPJ on a national level.

However, I will NEVER criticize people in uniform as a whole, nor will I criticize individual soldiers for NOT refusing to fight. Why? Because I know how heart-wrenching of a decision it is. I know that even though I do not regret the choice that I made, I still think about it every single day, and it still fills my heart with anguish when I feel that I abandoned my fellow soldiers in some way. Because of the fact that I speak from experience on this, I would NEVER condemn others for following the path they feel they need to take. And I will not hesitate to denounce those who make proclamations from their ivory towers condemning soldiers who choose to deploy to Iraq without the slightest idea of what that decision is really like.

I find soldier-bashing to be a relatively fringe thing here on DU. Personally, I think that the majority of us on the progressive left realize the need to reach out to soldiers and veterans, because we as people affiliated with the military represent a group that has the ability to reach segments of the population that the broader antiwar movement does not. And I think that most of us realize that the best way we can "support the troops" is not through jingoism or magnets (as the RW does), but rather by joining the fight for veterans' benefits, and calling for our troops to be brought home NOW, and that they never be misused in such a way again. In taking stands like this, we can show that we are FOR the people in the military ranks, but AGAINST militarism.

[rman]

68. DU is pretty resilient to fake wedge issues, yet they must try

and they will continue trying. If it isn't wrt the military then it is gays, transgender, the South, progressive candidates and whatever else they can come up with.