Kerry-Cleland Is A Better Combo Than Dean-Clark

[THUNDER HANDS]

John Kerry - Vietnam veteran, long-time U.S. senator, staunch liberal, a man with grace, gravitas, intelligence and sensitivity.

Max Cleland - Vietnam veteran, left three limbs on the battlefield, former U.S. senator, a SOUTHERNER, socially and fiscally moderate, a man with honor, integrity, common sense, smarts and a warm smile.

contrasted with...

Howard Dean - Governor of the second smallest state in the union, fiscally conservative, socially moderate, arrogant, hot-headed, prone to foot-in-mouth disease and no foreign policy experience.

Wesley Clark - NATO Commander who presided over a air-bombing campaign, never run for political office before, known as an elitist general more than a foot-on-the-ground soldier, social and economic views have yet to be articulated on a national scale.

I think a Kerry-Cleland combo would trump a Dean-Clark combo.

What Dean and Clark have as problems is that they both are extreme opposites. One has no FP experience, the other has no campaign/domestic experience. It'll be a tremendous learning curve for both of them. And the question followers of these two have to ask is this...

Is the 2004 election the time for an on-the-job campaign education?

John Kerry and Max Cleland, however, compliment eachother very well as both have domestic and foreign policy experience. Plus, they would geographically balance eachother out as Kerry comes from Massachusettes and Cleland from Georgia.

In 1992 when Bill Clinton was looking for a running mate, he could have chosen someone a whole lot more liberal than him. Someone from the Northeast or West Coast. Or someone who would draw a different crowd than Clinton could.

Instead, Clinton chose his practical identical twin, Al Gore. A very similar comparison exists between Kerry and Cleland.

[meegbear]

1. They'd all make great candidates no matter which order

IMHO

[THUNDER HANDS]

4. well

both Kerry and Dean are already great candidates. But when assembling a ticket, I think its important to look at who has all their bases covered the most. And I think that's Kerry and Cleland, moreso than Dean and Clark.

[salin]

12. can you hear me now... can you hear me now

(was thinking that I was caught in a cell phone advertisement).

Did you really just say that ALL of the candidates... all four of the candidates are good candidates in any order? While I absolutely agree with you... I couldn't help but notice your pleasure in knocking one of those said candidates down at nearly every opportunity. Are we sure you aren't shilling for Sprint in the post ;-)

[blm]

2. The fact that Dean feels the need to do this tells you

that he is coming to the point in his campaign where his weaknesses will become more glaring and he is trying to downplay them with the compensatory heft of Clark. I don't think Clark will board that bus.

[chimpymustgo]

38. Exactly, blm. It's a somewhat desperate move to fill the gaping hole.

Why EVER would Clark go for it? Not to mention the size of both of those egos.

[stickdog]

62. It's a masterstroke that will keep Clark from attacking him directly.

Dean wins again.

How does it feel to continually get outworked and outsmarted?

Well, at least you have your continual spinning to fall back on. Right?

[CMT]

3. I've advocated Cleland as a running mate before

and agree he is a good man. I think he could be an outstanding running mate to many of our candidates. I also disagree with you on your descriptions of Dean and Clark. For instance, Dean was a fiscally moderate and socially liberal Governor of a state which is a model of how many other states should be. Dean has fire and spunk and while he speaks off the cuff at times and to some puts his foot in his mouth at least he tells it the way he sees it.

Kerry is a good man with a good record and deserves respect as well. Nothing good comes from knocking down one candidate just to try and build up another.

[kwolf68]

5. Kerry_Cleeland

Would rule.

[clar]

6. I hate saying this

but I think too many Americans will believe that Max Cleland's disabilities preclude him from being second-in-line for the presidency.

[THUNDER HANDS]

7. and we hit back with....

F.D.R.

[Kahuna]

25. FDR concealed his condition for years.

no comparision there.

[CMT]

10. he is in a wheelchair

but so too was FDR. I think it would wake some people up to what people with disabilities can do. He served his couuntry well as a soldier and as a Veterans Affairs director and US Senator--the last two positions after losing both legs and an arm.

[cjbuchanan]

8. I understand it is your personal opinion, but

You only point out the potential good things of Kerry and Cleland and the bad things of Dean and Clark.

One big point that you make about Cleland is that he is a "SOUTHERNER," but so is Clark.

Also, Clark and Dean are very similar on the issues (kind of like Clinton and Gore). In addition, people attacked Clinton because he did not have FP experience, which is one of the reasons he picked Gore.

I understand you really like Kerry, but you should not let it blind you to the good things other candidates have to offer (same advice to all the fans of other candidates).

Just my thoughts.

[Patriot_Spear]

9. To quote Kerry, " Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean..."

Sorry- I couldn't resist.

[THUNDER HANDS]

11. LOL

:)

[Andy_Stephenson]

37. the actual quote was.....

"Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean"

[Patriot_Spear]

43. Oh, Yeah... thanks.

LOL

[wtmusic]

13. Got anything to back those adjectives up?

'gravitas', 'intelligence','sensitivity', 'arrogant', 'hot-headed', 'known as an elitist'.

Did we discuss Clinton's FP experience?

Ooh John, I think Magic Rat's in lovvvvve....

:loveya:

[THUNDER HANDS]

14. heeeheee

It's the hair, baby, I'm a sucker for anyone with a $500 haircut.

:)

[DEMActivist]

15. Yeah, 2 wimps who voted for the Iraq resolution

and are still trying to justify it.

Kerry says he didn't give Shrub a blank check, but...

When Shrub went to the UN they said NO.

When Shrub asked the people they said NO.

The world said NO.

And John Kerry and Max Cleland did what?

They did NOTHING. NOT A THING.

They didn't even hold Shrub responsible for his actions, and still don't today.

Yeah, that's a team I'll be voting for in a hurry. NOT!

[THUNDER HANDS]

17. *resisting urge to engage in flame war*

I..........respect..............your...........opinion.........and........ feel..........you.........have........every........right.....to..... expresss........that.......opinion.......about..........John.....Kerry.

Thank you.

:)

[wtmusic]

18. Well MR, you set the stage...

[Trajan]

41. Resisting the urge ...

to start walloping EVERY damned Democratic 'candidate' every chance I get because THAT is what DUer's love to do, apparently ...

[Patriot_Spear]

19. Enough of that crap- No 'eating our own' here...

We've got some great candidates- let's be civil.

ABB

[DEMActivist]

21. Excuse me, the truth is hardly not civil

Perhaps the fact that you can't face it makes you feel that way, but that doesn't make it any less true or any less pertinent to the discussion.

I worked on Max Cleland's re-election campaign until the day he cast that vote. Max Cleland is a personal hero. But, that vote was wrong then, it's wrong now, and our troops are dying everyday because of it.

Sometimes the truth hurts - ask any mother who lost a boy in Iraq.

[Patriot_Spear]

22. Don't hyperventilate- I like Cleland just fine...

But do you have to build your candidate up by tearing other Dems down?

You and a guy named Phyrrus should get together.

[DEMActivist]

24. LOL, excuse me?

Did you see me mention a candidate?

In addition, it was you who was hyperventilating with words like "crap" and "eat our own" not I.

If you can't handle the truth, you really should find a different hobby - politics is a nasty game.

[Patriot_Spear]

27. Politics aren't nasty, but some people are...

"handle the truth"? lol- thanks Jack Nicholson, I'll take that to heart.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Yeah

It was a bad vote....



but I'd rather lose three limbs than call someone who lost three limbs in Nam a wimp for making it...


I don't think anybody can appreciate the courage it took for Max Cleland to go on...

[DEMActivist]

26. Right, so tell me....

when Max Cleland went back to the Senate to finish his term as a lame duck for 2 months, what DID he do to stop the war in Iraq?

And, I hope you realize how right wing you sound when you say "yeah, he voted the wrong way but you can't hold him to his vote because he lost 3 limbs."

Pull out all the stops. Divert from the issue of his vote with the "poor Max" rhetoric.

There's only one problem with this behavior - Max admitted it was a bad vote. Max says he was a wimp for letting them force him to vote for something he was against for political expediency. I believe his words went something like "Yeah, even when you vote WITH them they still attack you."

[DrFunkenstein]

30. That's An Interesting Spin On His Quote

Maybe he said something different, but that quote doesn't express any sense of remorse.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. If Giving Props To A War Hero

who lost three limbs in Nam makes me a right winger I'm frightened to think what makes me a left winger...

I try not to question folks character just their judgement...


It was a bad vote, imho, but not one totally absent of moral or intellectual justification...

[JohnKleeb]

57. DSB I am as left as they get and I like Max Cleland

Good man very good man, I remember when I first heard about him as senator, my grandmother, my political influence but I am to the left told me about Max. I was like wow thats so sad and I saw him speak. I also like the FDR example magic rat uses. This ticket is one I even though nothing would please me more than Kucinich :), would be a :thumbsup: ticket.

[Starpass]

16. just a couple points

I think a Kerry/Cleland would indeed be a good combination. I also think a Kerry/Clark (all red, white, blue and dangling with medals between the two of them) would also be great. I think Clark would be demeaning himself and tying himself to a dead horse if he went with Dean. He would become the Admiral Whats-His-Name who ran with Perot!! Clark (as Clinton said) is a rising star of the Dem Party. I think the combination of those two Kerry and Clark, is another great choice. But, point blank, I'm so hoping that we don't present to the voters of this nation Howard Dean. We will get no where. These other guys have a lot more to offer that the public will "get into" and identify with.

[CMT]

20. I don't see how Dean is a "dead horse"???

He is gaining in the polls, picking up endorsement, he is one of the top three finalists for the powerful SEIU union endorsement (Dean, Gep, Edwards--Kerry fell out of the top three according to a press account), He is gaining more money than anyone in the race--will break Clinton's record this quarter--and that is from small donations compared to what others received. He has huge turnouts at Meetups, He gets huge turnouts at his rallies. He was judged to have performed quite well at the Debate the other night. Yet after all of this some continue to be dismissive of him. He continues to surprise and will continue to.

[blm]

28. Kerry and Edwards just switched spots in that story.

There is a top three and a top four. The president of the SEIU even said that Kerry was still powerful.

[CMT]

32. yes

but as I said he dropped out of the top three--which is what the angle of the story is.

[DrFunkenstein]

31. Because He'll Hit A Brick Wall In The General Elections?

Something like 75% of Americans think Saddam drove both planes into the WTC. How do you think they are going to feel about Dean's fire-breathing?

He has an intense following - a mile deep and an inch wide.

[VermontDem2004]

39. It is time to correct the 75%

of Americans WHO TOOK THE POLL. We shouldn't keep the American people dumb and uninformed unlike Bush, if you want to pander and pretend that Saddam drove those planes into the tower so you can get that 75%, how does that make you any different then dubya?

[wtmusic]

48. Ahem...as compared to Sharpton's following, Funk?

[ScreamingMeemie]

29. I opened this thread with a feeling of hope, for clean, fair discussion.

Then I got to paragraph three. If you can't debate without slinging silly little nasty little remarks, go back to bed. Because you obviously haven't gotten enough sleep. Lacking the ability to do that, GROW THE HELL UP ALREADY!!!!!!

[THUNDER HANDS]

33. um..maybe you missed my point

It's hard to make a comparison between two potential tickets if you sing the praises of both.

Obviously, I'm in the Kerry camp. But I think my analysis of him is fairly accurate.

Dean isn't flawless. Neither is Kerry. And telling folks why I think one ticket would be less flawed than the other isn't immature.

What the hell type of discussion would it be if everyone said "Dean is nifty and Kerry is super-cool."

[DrFunkenstein]

34. I Think It Would Be Peachy Keen!

For ALL the candidates!

:grouphug:

[Trajan]

44. Yeah MR ....

Some here have decided to become 'professional' hit man .... wise guys who cannot resist using diminishment instead of praise ....

I have YET to find a SINGLE reason worthy of decent consideration that would tarnish Clark OR Kerry OR Dean OR Edwards OR Kucinich OR even Liebermann to the point where I would start bashing them, and their presumed supporters, who also happen to good DUers ...

[ScreamingMeemie]

56. Not what I am saying and you know it.

You can compare two candidates without personal opinions, as stated in your third paragraph. I quickly lose respect for people who constantly need to frame their debates in such a way.

That said, Kerry is nifty, and Dean is super cool. :P

[chaumont58]

35. Foreign Policy experience? what a canard!

Does anyone alive believe this crap?

"What Dean and Clark have as problems is that they both are extreme opposites. One has no FP experience, the other has no campaign/domestic experience. It'll be a tremendous learning curve for both of them. And the question followers of these two have to ask is this..."

"tremendous learning curve..."

One problem with the ole DU is that so much shit attempts to pass as learned discussion.

[THUNDER HANDS]

40. what's wrong with that

Dean is used to running campaigns in Vermont. Clark has never been in one before in his life.

The primary season is just starting to heat up now. It's going to be on-the-job training for Dean and his crew, and that especially includes Clark if he hops on board.

Is this wrong? Would you like to dispute this?

[chaumont58]

45. Your complaint had to do with FP experience and DP experience

What does that have to do with running a campaign?
The idea, though, of two running as a team, this early in the campaign, is a good idea. No other occurance in my knowledge of American History comes to mind, leaving aside the distinctly different situation of a sitting President and a sitting Vice President.

[MR. ELECTABLE]

46. And Kerry is used to running campaigns in Massachussetts...

I don't understand your point here--

By the way, for someone getting "on-the-job training," I think Dean is running a HELL of a lot better campaign than Kerry ever could!

So yes, I dispute this.

[THUNDER HANDS]

47. this is a primary campaign

there's a big difference between winning a primary and winning the general election.

Sure, both teams would have excellent support staffs. But Dean needs someone, prefereably older and more likeable (say Bob Graham) to balance his ticket more than someone like Clark. I just think he needs someone who has experience winning BIG races.

Dean hasn't won anything yet except the second and third quarter money primaries.

I'm not going to say he won't win, or that he's going to fall flat on his face....but we've got a loooooong way between now and when the primaries come...not to mention the general election, should he win.

Someone with campaign experience would be a plus to his campaign, someone who NO campaigning experience would be a minus...even if that minus is a 4-star general.

[pruner]

65. Dean's campaign is already miles ahead of Kerry's

n/t

[VermontDem2004]

36. I agree somewhat with your anaylisis

except arrogant and hot-headed. I don't use those attacks to describe Kerry and I disagree. Then you call Wesley Clark an elitist when he actually served in Vietnam as a soldier, not a general. Also, people won't vote for someone just because he is a retired vet, if that was the case then why didn't John McCain get the republican nomination? Or how come Bob Dole didn't beat Bill Clinton, or howcome George H.W. Bush didn't beat Bill Clinton?

[THUNDER HANDS]

42. to answer your questions

Also, people won't vote for someone just because he is a retired vet, if that was the case then why didn't John McCain get the republican nomination? Or how come Bob Dole didn't beat Bill Clinton, or howcome George H.W. Bush didn't beat Bill Clinton?

Because 9-11 hadn't happened yet.

And since this is the first presidential election, post-911, then we're all grasping at straws until we know for sure whether a trend like the one you described above will come true again.

[VermontDem2004]

49. Why does a retired Vietnam Vet

eases someone's worries about another 9-11? I am sure alot of people know a retired Vet from somewhere and they wouldn't want him running this country. Please tell me how a Vietnam Vet will be strong on national security? I am not saying Howard Dean is tougher, but you sure as hell don't know what is on the minds of 100 million people who are going to be voting on election day, and I am 100% confident if Clinton ran in '04 he would win.

[THUNDER HANDS]

50. well

A retired vet (two of them) against a deserter would probably be a good matchup.

Certainly, I'd take those odds.

[VermontDem2004]

51. You act like 100 million americans

don't care about policies or the positions they stand on, they just care if the candidate served. Plus, most people don't know that Bush deserted and alot of them probaly don't care, they just care about how he is keeping their trailor park safe from terrorist attacks. I hope you are supported Kerry based on his positions, not the fact he is a war hero? I like Kerry alot, but the only way to tell if a Kerry/Cleeland ticket is unbeatable is to look through a crystal ball.

[THUNDER HANDS]

53. I love Kerry for his positions on issues

His history of service in Vietnam is a bonus, albeit a very LARGE bonus.

[blm]

59. What in the world is NOT to like about

Kerry on policy? His are the most progressive policies after Dennis Kucinich and Kerry has an 18 year rating that shows he is closest to Wellstone of any candidate running.

[JohnKleeb]

60. because people are very and I repeat very judgemental on him

on account of the war. I am not sure, the man is my second choice, and I opposed the war, and also my grandmother has him at #1. Also Kerry/Cleland, would be pretty good. The Boston-Atlanta axis :) but I am looking forward to the Cleveland/?????? axis. Thats just my opinion, people tend to disregard Kerry's liberalism because he voted for IWR.

[mb7588a]

54. wtf is your problem?

"I am sure alot of people know a retired Vet from somewhere and they wouldn't want him running this country."

That's just about the stupidest thing I've heard in these forums. Be careful with stereotypes my friend. There are some Vietnam veterans who are absolute geniuses - Ron Kovic for one. Take a look at Plato's "Republic." Socrates has a very poignant idea on the soldier being the only one fit to run anything because the soldier has seen the very worst of the human condition. I tend to agree with him.

Anyway. Imagine in 20 years when we have someone running for President who served in Iraq Afghanistan and Iraq again. That'll be a sight.

[VermontDem2004]

55. Who said I was sterotyping?

Kerry is a genius imho, Cleland is a genius imho, but my friend's dad is a retired vet who gets drunk at the local bar every friday night. Vets are like normal people, some smart, some incredibely stupid, some right in the middle. But I am sure SOME people know a retired vet who wouldn't want them running this country, but to assume more then 50% of the population will vote for someone because they are a retired war veteran is not true.

[SweetZombieJesus]

58. Oh yeah, that foot-in-mouth disease is horrible

Like, remember when Dean said "get over it" in reference to the 2000 election theft?

And when he parroted a RW talking point about Gore as a "joke" to reporters?

And when he made an anemic attack on Bush AFTER voting for his bullshit, illegal war?

Yeah, DEAN sure does say stupid stuff sometimes ;-)

[w4rma]

64. Sen. Kerry said those things, not Gov. Dean … (n/t)

[RevolutionStartsNow]

67. Yep, that was sarcasm from Zombie (nt)

[arcos]

61. you forgot SOUTHERNER for Clark too...

he is from Arkansas.

[stickdog]

63. Cleland Gave General Myers his 9/11 Alibi.

Maybe he didn't know what he was doing, but he lied through his teeth on 9/13/01 to cover Myers' ass.

[mndemocrat_29]

66. Cleland would've been a great candidate

If he'd won reelection in 2002. However, he didn't, and therefore I don't see him on the ticket. I know he's turned down the race, but if Cleland would just RUN for SENATE in 2004, then all would be well!