This may or may not be my last post on DU

[nostamj]

This may or may not be my last post on DU

It is certainly NOT a 'farewell' post.

First, I want to apologize for my harsh tone today. I didn't set that tone, but, I succumbed to it. And, I am sorry for that. I've been here a long time now. 20,000+ posts (and only half of those were kicking a TOON thread). I hope my reputation is not for that kind of posting.

It's been an unusually stressful time. After a long period of unemployment, and the dismal prospects for a man of my age, I finally took the leap and started my own business. It's meant 12+ hour days of very satisfying and very exhausting work.

And then there's Andy Stephenson. I know most of you know what's happening with him from posts here. Well, I've been on the phone with him. That is not a bragging point. I just happen to be lucky enough to have him as a friend completely outside of DU or BBV. And, I'm very concerned and have spent a lot of time working to support him.

And, I'm hardly unique or even all that important in doing that. As Will Pitt said in his wonderful post for Andy, it's a 'friend in need' so you do what you can.

Which brings me to vetwife (Amanda) and what was done to her on this site today. Like Andy, she is a friend well beyond DU or any other place on the internet. And, today, she was a friend in need too.

It wasn't just the outright lies and the willful distortion, it was the glee, the giddy joy, the sneering, the hate. Was this DU?

How could this be the same DU that rallied to Andy's plight?
How could this be the same DU that rallied to Mari333's tragedies?
How could this be the same DU that sent roses to Byrd and Boxer?

I have a few questions for those who took such pleasure at pissing on a patriot today:

Is DU perfect?
Is it really a sin worthy of such hateful personal invective to question, challenge, address postings here that you don't agree with?

Have you ever said a negative word about DU? Doesn't have to be a posting that someone can search and re-post without context. Have you ever thought... if I see one more 'no Pentagon plane' post I'm going to hurl?

Should DU close down all discussion of I/P? 9/11 CT? Abortion? GUNS? Just because there is no defined DU lockstep to march to?

How many would be shocked to learn there is a misogynist in our midst?

A closet or overt racist? A Homophobe?

How many of you are so passionate, and so strong about an issue--that should be non-partisan-- that you'll even try to reach across the divide to make a difference?

Does politics automatically trump humanity on DU? If hatred wins, they win.

How many of you know why Amanda went to that place in the first place?

How many of you know that Amanda went there to stop the vilification of Mari333?

Are any of you interested in what Marie has to say about Amanda?



I am not defending Amanda's post last night. I haven't read it frankly.

But, I know Amanda, off-forum and off-line. She's passionate, forceful, and fight for her cause without hesitation. If she deserved to be deleted, locked or banned for her comments last night, that it the discretion of the Mods and Admins.

But, the attacks were hateful and wrong.

Most of the assaults on her today are not worthy of comment or repetition.

They were, however, perfect example of right-wing spin. Outright lies, slander, innuendo, and outrageous leaps of the tinniest conjecture. Repeated loudly until they had become 'facts.'

EXAMPLE: Much fuss was made about comments regarding Kerry's medals–even to the point of posting screen capture from 'that site'. (And gee, no tombstone there! DU managed to drive more traffic to that site they they could have dreamed. Bravo on that!)

It was spin worthy of the masters of Faux News. Never was it suggested that Kerry didn't earn his medals, only that the story of the soldier who had HIS Purple Heart stripped reminded her of the controversy over Kerry's medals.... With Rovian joy, they made their own story.

And, members lined up to kick and take a self-congratulatory piss on this woman.

Well, you pissed me off big time.

How, how could you assume the worst of a woman with a record like this? HOW COULD YOU?

I am disappointed with the Mods and Admins who allowed this. It could and should have been stopped–my worst posts were deleted today. Why was this allowed to fester? I can't believe that the mission of DU is to shovel raw meat to our enemies. I can't believe that the mission of DU is to vilify those who would *try* to find common ground. But, that is what you did today.

They rejoice. I don't.

Hey, if I vanish, some might go: Hey, where are the TOONS? But, I have no illusions, if I were dying or died... I sure as hell won't end up in any sig lines.

Again, this is not an 'I'm quitting' post. (I hate them too.)

It's an 'I'm sorry (very sorry)' and some context post.

And please, get back to thinking good thoughts for Andy. Enough hate. Enough hate.

[NeoTraitors]

1. Along with the numerous rips on Vetwife there

were even more posts in her goodbye thread that asked her to stay and wished her well either way. Mine was one. I think that there are tons of DUers who are like me right now- what are we supposed to believe?

[nostamj]

2. "what are we supposed to believe?"

how about her YEARS of work and not one ill-considered post?

wouldn't YOU want the same?

[Warpy]

18. I've only seen a couple of her posts

and, while I didn't agree with everything she said, I saw no reason to start some sort of vindictive campaign against her. I have no clue what set people off today, so I stayed out of it.

This petty crap with longtime posters (and even new posters when the intent isn't obvious, like it was with that infmaous post after the suicide of a member) has got to stop.

Longtime DUers and most newbies are not the enemy, folks.

Remember, factionalization and the insistence on ideological purity are what generally keeps the left out of power.

We don't have to agree with each other on every point, and life would be unbearably dull if we did.

[Walt Starr]

3. Some of us were extermely pissed off at her spitting in our faces

both in her Opus thread and her posts on the site we shall not name.

[nostamj]

5. and some of us are pissed off at attacks on her.

oh gee! all DUers aren't marching in lockstep. oh my! someone criticizes posts on DU...

it's the END OF THE WORLD! <feh, repeat, feh!>

edit: typo

[Walt Starr]

9. You're entitled to your opinion

So am I.

She was tombstoned for her actions. She could get back on. All she has to do is email Skinner and make her case.

[Nite Owl]

19. I don't understand what her case

could be at this point. She betrayed DU. She wasn't just posting at a site like that she was a mod. She didn't defend liberal ideals she bashed them. She needs to apologize to all here who have worked to get rid of the ones in office that don't support the troops. She's doing just what they do now and she can talk all she wants about veterans but anyone who condones this administration does not support our men and women who are in harms way. She's one sick lady.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nite Owl]

27. And how many DUers trash

the troops? I don't see it happening. You are seeing what you want to see in her. She needs help or she is a phoney. She needs to explain herself and apologize to DU.

Do you have any examples of her defending DU on those sites because all the ones that I have seen aren't and she made no defense of Senator Kerry.

[Walt Starr]

23. Her case is between she and Skinner

:shrug:

If she emails Skinner and Skinner reactivates her account, I would not be able to argue against it and would apologize to her.

[liberalhistorian]

4. Thank you,

I may not agree totally with everything you're saying but I certainly understand most of it. NO ONE can accuse you of being a troll or a closet conservative or anything like that, if they do then they have their head screwed on wrong. It took a lot of guts to post this, and I thank you.

I'm also very disturbed by a lot of what's happened today, and I'm disturbed that people are doubting my liberalism because I dared to express that in a thread. I very much hope this is not your last post, as you've been such an important part of this board for a long time now.

[CatWoman]

6. Jeff

I love you.

Don't go.

Please.

[bloom]

7. I think she got what she wanted.

“Well, Its easy to say I'll pray for you. , those professing faith. But where are they when God is attacked? Wouldn't trust those prayers to get any higher than the ceiling.

This is crazy but I actually believed Most conservatives were followers of Falwell and Robinson. I will say this, ALL conservatives have been tolerant of my faith here. See how things are so misunderstood. I bought into a lot of propoganda and I feel pretty stupid ! I am talking about DU..not here.
Last edited by Vetwife : 01-14-2005 at 02:58 AM. “


“I only recognize three people on that board. I have no idea who all of these folks are. NSMA and Texas and AZ. Same thing as last thread I posted..barely knew anyone. Who are all of these people? Well I get tired of seeing things blamed on election losing and then not face what is really happening.” Vetwife

People make choices.

[1monster]

8. Hey, nostamj, there will always be those who are ready to spit on another

person when they are down, and those who will join on the bandwagon to feel that they are part of the "in" group.

But there are over 60,000 registered members here and I'm willing to bet that the majority of those members not only didn't post anything negative about Vetwife, but they don't know what the heck is going on regarding the same.

I know I sure don't. I only came across one reference in my skimming of the board today and that said she had been tombstoned which greatly surprised me. Others who were regulars here for a long time have also been tombstoned for one reason or another and that didn't make them bad people. It just meant that they stepped over the line somewhere or somehow...

On the other hand, perhaps if you did read what she wrote, you might have a little more understanding as to why people got angry at her. I don't have a clue as to why, but if you are considering leaving DU, perhaps you should.

[Erika]

13. I've been here for 4 years

and don't have the slightest idea of what's going on with one or two posters. If they choose to leave, so what.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CatWoman]

11. you're not fucking helping

how dare you talk to him like that.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oasis]

51. Please show respect to one of our most treasured members. I wish

him well, whatever his choice, and you should too.

[PassingFair]

62. Respect? I don't disrespect him!

Guy posts a "Maybe I'm gonna leave, maybe not post".
WTF? Where are we, nursery school?
And don't tell me who to respect.

[oasis]

83. Then you'd agree that impish behavior belongs in "nursery school"?

Since you brought up the subject.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

12. I still don't see how anyone could defend her after seeing this....

vetwife
Moderator


Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 75
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Feb 14 2005 05:34 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I do apologize for that Undercover Brother. Thank you for your service. I had a Zeal without knowledge. I am honored to meet you. Attitude is something I would imagine that would be second nature after three tours of Nam and I certainly don't fault those who have one.

Three tours? I have only met a few that served three tours and they have my sincere respect. The ones who served period do but three tours? That is a lot of courage my friend.

I saw and am seeing what has happened over at CU and jumped the gun, I do so sincerely apologize.

My husband said that when he landed in Washington State coming back from overseas. He went to Germany after Nam, that the hippies were throwing tomatoes and getting up in the returnees face. He punched one longhair down and stomped him. He said that he knows the way he was treated when he got home affected him. And he too has an attitude....I think all soldiers who saw battle up close and personal do.
I think the hippies just flamed that attitude. I was so ashamed of our generation and how those hippies treated our men and women. The nurses returning didn't get much better treatment upon their return either.

I had an experience in 68 about the hippies and the vets.
I had gone through school with several people and remained friends until one day this girl I had started out in grammer school with approached me at my home all decked out in braids and scandals with the local football star who also was decked out in Love beads and long hair. I had not sen them in about three months and was doing some work on the terrace and I still lived at home, going to college.

They approached me and I nearly did not recognize them. My true best friend and is so today was there. Her husband, she was very young, was on his way to Vietnam. He had enlisted in the Marines with three other friends of mine. The hippie folks I THOUGHT I knew all those years said, "Pick who you want to be friends with"! Right there in my house. I barely looked up and looked at my best friend whose husband was heading overseas and said, "You just did" ! I don't hang out with dirty filthy people and I don't know you at all anymore. See ya. You may leave now. My best friend hugged my neck.

I think that was the very first time I ever really knew what supporting our troops and vets was all about. I have not seen either one since that day but my friend who was on the porch, has remained my close friend throughout the years. Good call for a youngster., I would say. She was with me today, as we buried my brother in law, a Navy veteran. Ithought about those hippies Cheba and Dale as we looked at the casket with a Flag draped over it. We both talked about that day in 68. We still shake our heads in disgust.
_________________
If you are reading this, Thank a Veteran
for your freedoms !

I did not edit this at all except for emphasis, I don't care about her politics, I do care that she would associate with someone like this, who would do violence against others over politics. Its either that this happened as she said, or she lied to fit in with the crowd over at American Conservative, either way it makes her look bad. I also do not like the fact that she would slander an entire message board over a few comments by very few posters. She slandered us over a freakin' vanity post, that also does not make her look good, so why defend her at this point?

[Erika]

Interesting but what has it to do with today?

My most memorable thoughts on Nam vets, was when I lived in college housing, above a vet who was severely wounded and suffered from injuries and emotional trauma. He would wake me up between 1:00 am and 5:00 am with his yells and moaning. Anther memory was a Nam vet who freaked out and almost strangled his mother, he hallucinated she was Cong. Another one was my brother's friend who was severely injured and came back to lead our local disabled veterans chapter.

No one called THEM any names, but we sure as heck told the government that the insane war in Nam had to be stopped.

How anyone can support the Iraqi war is beyond me.

[Solon]

33. They had Post Tramatic Stress Syndrom...

and that is perfectly understandable. But to brag about what a veteran has done that was wrong, as in third grade morality. To do that, just to fit in, whether the truth or not, makes me wonder just where her values lie.

[liberalhistorian]

41. My uncle served as a Marine in Vietnam

in the late 60's, when I was very young. He and my grandmother have told me that for weeks after his return he would sleep with his hands around his throat. When my grandma would go to wake him up in the morning, he'd jump up and grab her throat before he even woke up, she had to have my grandpa wake him up after that.

He said he never experienced any jeering or spitting or anything like that and he doubts that that happened much. One friend apparently told him that there was an older man at the airport when he returned who called them "candy-ass losers" who "couldn't do the job right", but he never knew if that was actually true or not. None of the Vietnam vets I've ever known have ever experienced anything like that either.

[timtom]

79. There! There it is!

"How anyone can support the Iraqi war is beyond me."
This HAS to be the litmus test. This has to be what it's all about, right now, immediately.

How, indeed, can anyone support the Iraqi war?

And, of course, there is NO defensible answer.

[Warpy]

24. I know a Vietnam vet

who is one of two I know who claims he was jeered at and spat on.

He rearranged the longhaired spitter's face.

As soon as he got his discharge, he joined VVAW and demonstrated with the longhairs.

Judging people on the basis of one incident is self defeating.

(the other guy couldn't punch through a chain link fence, but he too was a VVAW member)

It was a different time, and I really do think you had to be there to understand it.

[Solon]

29. THAT IS NOT THE POINT!!!!!!

The fact that she would glorify it, or even mention it, on another board is disparaging. He could have then been anti-war or what not, hell, I don't even know if it took place at all. The fact that it was mentioned at all would, coupled with her other comments, make her seem less than trustworthy.

[UdoKier]

30. What a disgusting mischaracterization of "hippies".

As many of us know, there is NOT ONE DOCUMENTED INSTANCE of a "hippie EVER spitting in the face of a returning veteran. It's an urban legend that became amplified into a false truism around the time JOHN KERRY was helping to try and find MIAs in SE Asia in the early '80s. "Filthy, dirty", etc.? And that is such bull that all hippies hated or vilified soldiers. Many of them exhorted them to quit their posts and come over to the right side.

I'm sorry, LiberalHistorian, but you've hitched your wagon to a woman with a very strange military obsession and fetish. It's one thing to admire our soldiers, their service and their sacrifice. It's another to think that they can never, ever do any wrong, and to obsessively post about them and nothing else. Hell - she doesn't even define herself as a person, just a "vet's wife".

I've been disgusted by much of what she's written both here and over there. "Troop-bashers" here at DU are truly few and far between, and guess what - they are entitled to not support the troops, if that's their convictions!

I've never read any troop-bashing here that was a vile or untruthful than that "hippie"-bashing post there.

[liberalhistorian]

36. I have NOT "hitched my wagon to her",

I was simply trying to point out that she might have had a good point in a couple of areas. I totally agree that we shouldn't think vets can do no wrong or that any criticism of the military is automatically "anti-American", that's bullshit.

[UdoKier]

40. Or that most "hippies" were "filthy, dirty" thugs as she described.

I'm sorry, but I have WAY too many hippie friends who were around at the time, and have immersed myself in way too much of the literature and films of the time to buy into that crap she's selling.

The "hippies" may have been prone to excess, but the VAST majority were not as she described. I thank God for the hippies, flower children, the free speech movement, all of it. They were right then, and we're right now. I couldn't be more certain.

[G_j]

52. I was/am

a hippie who was involved in the peace movement back then. All I have is my own experience, but I NEVER ONCE heard a fellow activist attack or vilify the soldiers as a group. It seems I've had to repeat this far too many times over the years, but these people were our family members and friends!!!!
I guess I'll just keep repeating it until I'm blue in the face: They were us!

[UdoKier]

53. Thank you, and I believe you.

I was pretty young when the war ended, but I know enough people who tell me the exact same thing, and a LOT of those "filthy longhairs" were vets who came back from Vietnam themselves.

I'm sorry you have to endure this slander all the time.

[G_j]

60. it goes way beyond me or any individual

it is a deliberate RW myth created to slander ALL the people, that is everyone who works for peace and against aggressive war.
It is alive and well today as we are witnessing, and unfortunately it works. :-(

[UdoKier]

61. Well, I've been anti-war for some time now...

...and people assumed I wasn't because my hair was short, and I dressed really boring. I started growing my hair out last fall, and I'm thinking I won't cut it until this country is a democracy again, or at least until they FORCE me to....

[G_j]

68. all power to ya!

you gave me a smile when you described dressing really boring.
I don't know it just made me smile, I needed that. I'm sure you aren't a boring person.

I had my hair short through much of the eighties and ninties.
Haven't cut it for about five years now, feels good though a bit thinner. :-)

[Enquiringkitty]

73. You just hit the nail on the head .. propaganda! Some of the returning

Vets did join the anti-war movement and the government could not have that. People like my parents just overlooked us as stupid kids who did have a clue but when a few GIs came home saying the same thing, they had to stop and think about it. We are still suffering under the misconception spread back then. Have you looked at your kids history books about the 60s? It will make you sick! I couldn't even finish reading my sons history book's chapter on the 60s/ section on Kent State and the Democratic Convention in Chicago. A pack of bull-shit! I tore the pages out and told him he would just have to fail that test because I didn't even want him to write out answers on a test with that crap.

[G_j]

78. you tore the pages out!

good for you! No I haven't read those books. I am so sorry to hear about them, but not surprised.
I have heard many of the same myths repeated here also.
I try to correct them at times but it is exhausting.

[Desertrose]

59. me tooG_j... and most of my friends were DRAFTED....

and most served if called...a few opted to head north, but everyone I knew had compassion for what the guys went through over there when they returned...even if they didn't really understand how bad Nam was, many remembered how rotten war was....

This whole thing with vetwife is getting stranger as I read more of what she said....

:hug:G_j
DR

[G_j]

65. although this conversation has developed around

Vetwife, it occurres to me that this may be one of those "teachable" moments, a time for soul searching. In a sense Vetwife is irrelevant because we find ourselves talking about a larger more important issue.
I feel the ghosts of Vietnam, of friends, schoolmates, of the three million dead Vietnamese. We have not healed those wounds. With tears in my eyes I see their faces. We are in denial and Bush's war is the ultimate lie and denial.
We still have not healed those wounds and now we are creating more upon more.
I can hardly bear it anymore.

[autorank]

42. Don't know the controversy but the post quoted above is pathological!

I was in SoCal and anti-war during the Viet Nam days. I never heard of one single incident where a veteran was disrespected. I'm not saying that something like this didn't happen but I never heard about it. We had friends drafted who ended up in Viet Nam. We gave them a send off and a welcome home and just listened. And the stories varied from sad to horrifying. There was no bull shit like described in this post. In fact, the returning vets were treated with real respect as people. I never heard about anything like this ever happening. I think the post quoted above is ONE HUGE LIE. It's the type of camp fire, bull shit story you hear from people who need to see themselves as victims. Like I said, I have no knowledge of the controversy, just what I'm sure is an accurate analysis of this particular post.

[UdoKier]

43. Yes, it's urban folklore.

There are no documented cases of hippies spitting on vets.

[autorank]

45. Thank you. This stuff is so crazy it makes me sick when I hear it.

Or to invert the saying, "Hate the game, not the player."

[WI_DEM]

75. I don't know if she should have gone or not, and frankly don't

know enough about her to make any judgement, but I will say this, it was more than "hippies" who opposed the Vietnam war. To think it was just "hippies" (what are hippies?) is a glaring lack of knowledge about wide spread opposition to the war in Vietnam.

[Pithlet]

14. I don't want you to go, either.

But, I do think you should actually read the post before you blast those who were hurt and offended. And, I do think that her behavior on other boards IS relevant.

This is just one brouhaha on DU out of many that have been, and many more that are to come. A very small percentage of DUers have participated in this particular one. I don't think it is worthy of leaving DU. This one incident is hardly accurate as a picture of who DUers are.

And, I do disagree with your assessment about the comments about Kerry. It seems very clear that whoever posted in that screen shot didn't think Kerry earned those medals.

[havocmom]

16. Please know I say this as a real fan of yours

Read her post, then get back to us on the subject.

She was WAY over the line and asked for everything she got. Perhaps she needs to consider a different sort of group for the help she apparently needs.

I mean this in the kindest, most honest way. She needs to talk to someone one on one.

[kentuck]

17. At times, we have all needed some time away from DU....

I have taken a week off before myself and I know others that have taken some time off. Perhaps many of us need to take some time to put things in perspective. Yes, we make mistakes at DU...and I will apologize to those I have offended. However, DU is the most honest, even with our faults, of any site on the Internet, in my opinion. I agree with you, we should not hate.

[Goldmund]

22. I haven't really followed this controversy

as I generally am not that fascinated with these kinds of personal dramas, unless it involves someone I know -- and in this case it didn't. I don't really know much about the whole case, other than that it's inspired threads that take a half minute to load with a broadband connection. So I don't have an opinion one way or the other...

But I really love your post. That's some sincere shit.

[Blecht]

25. Your loyalty to your friend is admirable

I'm sure that means more to her than 1000 nasty comments from people who don't know her.

[nostamj]

31. thank you. the perfect post to leave this thread, the forum

and this site tonight.

NOT that I won't be back in the morning.

p.s. without Blecht, you'd never see a TOON thread without his kicks!

[merh]

28. How can you judge the reactions of others when you haven't

read the thread that started it all? :shrug:

I am not defending Amanda's post last night. I haven't read it frankly.

Defend her all you want, but be fair to those that were offended by her farewell vanity thread and go read it. It was the tone of her thread that caused people to search to see if she could possibly have ulterior motives, folks didn't wake up this morning and say "who can we out today?" She brought it upon herself.

If you haven't read her comments in those other forums and have just taken her word that she was there to defend DU, then you are wrong in attacking those that have read her posts and were offended by them.

Be her friend and as her friend accept the fact that she chose to leave DU and continue to moderate at conservative forums. Accept her choice and stop being mad at people for being offended by her negative, farewell post.

Your loyalty is admirable, but your anger at us for her actions is unfair, especially since you did not read the thread and the comments from many who asked her to reconsider.

[trumad]

38. She moderates at two conservative forums

one in which their sole purpose it to disrupt DU.. She allows and even comments in the negative against John Kerry's Purple Heart medals.....

And of course her insulting post this morning. Defend her all you want... Leave DU as a protest... Your move.

[detroitguy]

32. Deep breath time

And, as one who is pretty new to DU, I just want to say that I hope this kind of "flare up" is rare. And I'd encourage all parties to take a deep breath here. People get pissed and when they vent, they sometimes come across in writing more harshly than they really intended to be.

My hope is that DU can be a "big tent" that can accommodate Democrats of all stripes. I also hope DU won't succumb to the kind of paranoia and suspicion that causes some people to be chased out and others to self-censor out of fear of being chased out.

Vetwife is right when she says that we owe the military a lot. My grandfather won a Purple Heart in the Pacific during WWII. That medal is considered to be a prized family artifact. And my grandfather's service is something that inspires awe in us.

That said, I also know what an ugly think it is to misuse America's military power. And the neocons are, in my view, are dishonoring the spirit of military service.

They have, under Bush, managed to completely re-define the mission of the military. Instead of being there to defend America, they now openly boast about being "on the offensive" to remake the world. This is lunacy. Not only does it mock the good intentions of the troops who sign up, it is a philosophy that could be our undoing. Great powers are brought down in many when hubris like this leads ruinously expensive to military adventurism and imperial overreach.

It is silly, however, to blame any of that on the young kids who serve - either out of economic necessity or idealism. But then, I also know that most of you do NOT blame them. And I am not sure Vetwife really thinks otherwise.

Group hug time.

[manic expression]

34. She expressed herself

And those who disagreed with her should be allowed to express themselves as well. I did not read her original statement, but I am quite sure I got the gist of it. If people saw fit to respond the way they did, why should they hold their tongue when almost everyone saw her as completely wrong? There is no DU "lockstep", but if someone promotes a view that virtually everyone disagrees with and actively opposes, do not expect people to hold back their true feelings; the response to such an action will be strong and honest and I see nothing wrong with that.

[Toucano]

37. This is true.

"If she deserved to be deleted, locked or banned for her comments last night, that it the discretion of the Mods and Admins.

But, the attacks were hateful and wrong.

Most of the assaults on her today are not worthy of comment or repetition. "
________________________________________________________

It turned into a troll hunt and now too many are pointing fingers, which is counter productive to our mission.

I've seen more than one "farewell" thread turn ugly, and maybe there should be a rule against them. They always bring out the worst in people.

I know a few people commented that they were "letting off steam" but it's gone way beyond that.

Hope to see you back here in the future. Good luck with your new business.

[depakid]

39. Hey, you know how some people here get

they go off half cocked without knowing their head from a hole in the ground. It's been like that around here since I found this place, at least, in spring of 2001.

You can't expect most people to have much memory of past postings or have the insight to sit back and consider all the circumstances. Even if they might do so in real life. The forums are too reactive for that. That's the nature of the medium.

Plus, vetwife really did go off- and while I think I might be able to understand some of the potential reasons for that, it's not unreasonable that a lot of people felt betrayed and got "triggered." Not at all!

It's totally to be expected, and if vetwife was in a rational frame of mind, I'm sure she would have expected it. I mean, wouldn't you?

That was one of the more, shall we say- exuberant- swan-song vanity posts I've ever seen- here or anywhere.

And to top it off with with people googling her up and finding her on a right wing forum, with her MSN site saying she's switching her party affiliation- hell, I'd wonder about DU's (and my own) sanity if the place didn't ignite!

At anyrate, this is the last I'm going to post on the matter. Like you, I won't end up in any sig lines, but I remember what you've written while you've been here, nostamj and you've given me things to think about- just as vetwife has here and over at the Smirking Chimp... so try to keep it all in perspective and not let a little drama on a message board stress you out to much. It ain't worth all that.

~Depa

[seabeyond]

44. nostamj this is not the first time, and not just with the troops

she did this with christianity too. it was abrasive and pointed at all du'ers, including the christians. it was offensive. and i patiently chatted with her. sent an email. and she responded. this is how i found out she was at this other site. i read what she had said about us. here is a piece of my email to her that day

"but i would like to ask. i went into this site and was
>surprised to see a whole forum on du. kinda gave me a sick
>feeling. i dont particular care to read thread after thread
>dismissing denigrating other peoples thoughts and opinion.
>not my favorite threads when they talk about what freepers are
>saying. but to see a whole room of threads on things being
>said on democratic underground was creepy. anyway. not my
>thing, has little to do with me. but going thru the many
>threads, i saw a lot you posted.
>
>you arent hiding that is for sure. but to suggest you motives
>are pure and of Christian spirit, i beg to differ. your sole
>purpose coming onto the board today was to entertain your
>friends on another board. i personally spoke from the heart.
>on my beliefs in Christianity, and the loss of humanity and
>kindness today. i spoke sincerely. i shared, took the time
>and effort. yet you used it in an ugly. this is the beginning
>of where we start. we dont do this to each other
>
>if you had gone on that board, and shared and expressed and
>been a part of the community, nifty. but that isnt what you
>did on that board. you have had a lot of people support you
>at du. you gave em all the finger. and then you are outraged
>at us.
>
>sincerely
>and the best in your quest to find peace.
>i have found it. i dont have to hunt anymore.
>the peace is within.
>seabeyond"

this was another she is leaving the board post. i wanted to find it to share. i guess they are all wiped out. just have the email. her response to my email is incredibly strange, though i totally embraced the response and gave her the benefit of the doubt.

with this experience, i am just not willing to buy what you are saying. she is your friend. honor that. love her and support her. you have every right. but really you cannot expect me to. nor can you expect others to, who feel a betrayal

[sweetheart]

47. The macrocosm is our family

There is no enemy outside of ourselves. The fractured, american left
reflects its colours on to DU in such intensity, that one might be
misled in to believing its voices to be real.

When the truth is that we are all born in silence, and will die silent,
that DU is but the screamings on Horton's dust speck... inaudible
and yet so very loud.

I see nothing but unity amongst the flames. Others see separate flames
mutually exclusive in their views. Yet we come for the heat, and
revel in its transformative power.

Too much individualism and personality "ego"... sadly, for all the
benefits of having the great and good posters named and elevated, we
succumb to the trap of egotism and a limited concept of self, when
the natural silence is infinite; deafening beyond words.

There is no peace in concepts, words, egos and disagreement... rather
in surrendering these tools of war, to realize we are all misunderstood
speaking with words about unity and love.

namaste,
-s

[seabeyond]

49. you are good

bow and embrace

[latteromden]

48. Man, I just want to know what the hell happened... I missed something,

sleeping from 1:30 PM to 5:30 AM, I guess. *head spins*

[jonnyblitz]

50. you might want to read her post before you are so quick

to judge those of us who are rightly angry. I can't believe you have been hurling insults at those of us angry with her and you haven't even read her post that started it all! I don't know why you feel we have to cut this particular person slack just because she happens to be YOUR friend and she did nice stuff for somebody else once. she wrote one of the most insulting threads I have ever read on DU and I am so glad she was tombstoned. she apparently has found a home with people more to her liking : http://groups.msn.com/FocusGroupNow/_whatsnew.msnw

Good Riddance to her!!

[Nite Owl]

54. Geez, it just gets worse

So it seems that there is no doubt about where her allegience lies now. She joined up with the party that doesn't support the troops.

[jonnyblitz]

57. all this doesn't matter to her apologists.

:eyes:

[merh]

72. Well, let's be sure that we quote that post from her msn group

..........................................................................................

I will change my party affiliation.

Dem no more. I feel we were duped by Sen. Kerry and

at this point and time if this country does not come together

then we will be forever lost in a sea of polarazation.

.....................................................................................

We are all Americans !

Love thy Neighbor and Pray for your enemies !

Love your country and remember We are the People

------------

[e-mail]

[fooj]

55. Nostamj- here's my post on that thread last night. I think it's important

for me to share this with you...Truth is our most powerful weapon. Here it is:

Wow. I'm really sorry you feel that way...
I've been posting here for a while now and sure, there are jerks lurking around. I won't deny that. The majority of us, however, are spending our time here trying to figure out just exactly HOW we can protect and honor those freedoms you speak of. Many of us are angry at the way this administration has manipulated and used our military for their own personal gain. We have spent many an evening trying to coordinate e-mail blitzes so that our soldiers are properly equipped and protected. I hang my flag daily and take it down in the evening as a sign of respect for those who have fought for this country.


"Did you openly express your discontent with policy makers and have a debate and discussion about our changing world without fear of being shot or locked away? If you did, thank a Vet. That troop insured your freedom to do so in this United States of America."

Unfortunately, open discussion isn't on the administrations agenda this time around. Our president has done his best to erode all of the HARD WORK and SACRIFICE that our troops have so unselfishly given to this country. Decades and decades of sacrifice.

I don't know what your experience's have been like here so I cannot question the validity of your complaint. All that I know is recently, the Veterans of this country have taken quite a hit. It hasn't been from DU. It has been from the 43rd Pres. of The United States of America. You will never find a group of patriots (aside from our servicemen and women) who love their country more than the people here at DU! Peace!
********************
I wrote this last night before going to bed. I actually slept rather well. I'm proud to be a part of a group that trys to honor and defend our Constitution. So- my question is...HAVE YOU HUGGED AND THANKED A DUer TODAY? After countless insults with demeaning and degrading comments, WE ARE ALL STILL HERE TRYING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. I, for one, am sick of the constant barrage of innuendos in regards to our PURPOSE and our PATRIOTISM! Soon, there will come a day when the light of truth will shine brightly upon us all. Until then, our work continues...

Peace!!!

BTW Nostamj- Vetwife (Amanda) never responded to my post. I assumed she was not open to an honest message communicated respectfully. She apparently CHOSE a different path. I guess what I am trying to say is that WE ARE ALL PASSIONATE about preserving our democracy. Patriotism is not exclusive- it is inclusive! I'm hoping that you will decide to stay on here. We are in this together! :hi:

[Must_B_Free]

56. Good luck in your business! stop in once in a while

[Catherine Vincent]

58. That first sentence in her post is what pissed off a lot of us.

I told her she shouldn't go but I am sorry I said that. I didn't know all what she did. Besides, she was tombstoned. So we shouldn't worry about her. I am sure she'll be fine.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. I would hate for it to be your last. You are appreciated.

So is Amanda. The thing that angers me is that she participates AND moderates on a site that had a thread NUMEROUS pages long on how to troll at DU. Some of the suggestions on that thread included piling on in anti-military threads.

Therefore, the thing she deplores on DU is being fed by the very people she's associating with.

I don't hate her. I don't feel betrayed by her OPINIONS. I feel betrayed by her actions.

Beyond that, I don't think she is the devil - I think many things being said about her are untrue.

I would further suggest, and you know it to be true, that DU'ers were ALSO very supportive with their generosity where the troops are concerned.

And this thread is NOT about events of today. This thread is about events over time for her, as she posted about her angst at DU many times..with people who have been tombstoned here SEVERAL times for disrupting. She fed it and she made sure it erupted today. She said she would. Many people followed this over time.

So take all of it and add it together:

1) She was supported and promoted and respected here

2) She not only participates on a website that has a forum dedicated to disrupting DU (something we do not dedicate ourselves to here with other sites), but moderates as well WHILE being hypercritical of DU over a period of time.


That said, I hope she contacts admin. I'd love nothing more than for her to respond. We do support the troops and each other. We've done it many times.

We aren't hateful. She started this. She authored it, not us.

[ScreamingMeemie]

92. No need for me to post anything here. Excellent, nsma.

:hi:

[punpirate]

64. I'm probably coming in to this...

... far too late, and with far too little information, but I believe that the nub of the problem is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3176259#3181113

In this thread, johnnie posts the names of many of those killed in the Iraq invasion and occupation. There are several following posts thanking johnnie for the post. #3 of this thread is from Roland99 who asks "Did you put this together or is this from a site online?"

Vetwife posts in reply to this post, in part: "These young men and women followed orders and paid the ultimate sacrafice. Who would want to not wish anything but the best for their families and to honor the Fallen men and women?

"These men and women follow orders and have no say in policy making decisions.

"I will not compare these children of neighbors, loved ones, and school mates to Nazis."

Clearly, vetwife is reacting to post #6, from tom_paine, who says in subject and in part in the message: " But...Freepers don't feel shame unless THE PARTY tells them to! Wasting your breath. Like trying to get a Nazi to feel shame."

Vetwife has apparently confused tom_paine's remarks about freepers being Nazis as applying to the original list of dead soldiers, even though her reply is directed to the #3 post in the thread.

She's confused about who's being called a Nazi here. tom_paine clearly intends to describe freepers as Nazis, but vetwife thinks tom_paine is referring to the dead soldiers as Nazis.

Does vetwife make this mistake because she's posted on freerepublic.com, or because she's simply confused? I can't say--I don't read minds.

But, it seems clear that she misunderstood a post and reacted in accordance with that misunderstanding. If she thought that someone were comparing all soldiers to Nazis, that might explain her remarks.

Cheers.

[Bluebear]

67. Wow.

Just wow. Talk about an inappopriate reaction on her part...is THAT what started this whole 24 hours into motion? Sheesh.

[punpirate]

71. I don't know...

... it's just my best guess in looking over recent posts.

People who get caught up in what they are doing don't always check the details and may make hasty assumptions.

[Catherine Vincent]

70. delete

[checks-n-balances]

82. I think you just found the K*E*Y to all this misunderstanding

She totally went off on that thread...did she misunderstand on purpose or was her hearing totally clouded by emotions?

I say purposely because it sounds like the way that many RW talking points are formed - i.e., claiming that "left-wingers" equate our troops with Nazis" or "Left-wingers hate the troops" or "Lefties hate the troops because they think our troops are Nazis", etc.

It's called RW spin. It's created to advance propaganda and to divide the electorate.

So she was giving DU a RW spin, characterizing us as not supporting the troops because she twisted what another poster was saying - not about the troops, but about freepers. Somehow it hit a nerve.

I'm just posting this because I'm trying to understand this bizarre behavior.

Ben, the guy from the White Rose Society, was defending her on DU last night but then admitted an opinion change after he had read the facts.

I've always said that many who believe all the trash about liberals simply DO NOT UNDERSTAND our point of view - either out of ignorance or their deep emotions are being manipulated.

We've got to understand more of what's going on emotionally and psychologically with people before we can help people see what's happening to this country.

[IndianaGreen]

85. She is a Republican, she is an America First type of person

I walk in lockstep with no one. I am a dem no more but it is not party affiliation that makes a person. I am an American.

http://forums.therightsociety.com/default.aspx?f=22&m=101684&g=102371#m102371

[KoKo]

86. Good Points...lot's of misunderstanding there which led to other

misunderstandings...

[qanda]

91. It seems like you found the key

She made a mistake! She owes DU an apology.

[bpilgrim]

66. have you seen her posts on the reTHUG board?

i just did tonight and i am still in shock :crazy:

no wonder she doesn't like DU.

peace

[DianeG5385]

69. Whatever your feelings, you are valuable to DU

Sometimes this forum descends to the depths of irrelevance and I believe the vetwife threads are included in that. It is divisive and intended to destroy substantive discussion which I must say has been sorely lacking lately. You decide. If your pique over the vetwife issue leads you to "change parties" or "leave the forum" because you have hurt feelings or feel we don't understand vetwife's true motives, then on your way. I will miss your TOONS though and wonder at your motivation, in fact I'm beginning to question the motivations of alot of posters on this board, but I'm sticking with it and might post more often.

[sandnsea]

74. She pissed on DU

I don't get what there is to defend, I really don't.

Vetwife has made some posts in the past that have caused me to steer clear. At the same time, I agree that the military bashing around here gets a little over the top. So I see both sides.

I've read DUers posting trash about me on other sites. Whatever turns their crank. I'd never do it. I don't understand it.

But she went to a conservative site, posted some trash, and decided to stay there. As I've said elsewhere, that's below zero in my book. It's totally irrational and a complete betrayal. People have every right to be hurt and angry and if vetwife can vent all over conservative sites, DUers can at least vent here.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

76. Original poster has not read the "swan song" thread. Totally unfair

to react as they have done considering this. I don't care how good a friend you are with someone. If they make a post that causes a problem it would be reasonable to check it out before responding to others.

If they are said to be moderating two other boards that are at cross purposes to this one, instead of automatically accepting the contention that she was there to "defend the Dem viewpoint" there, it would seem reasonable to check it out a bit before swinging the scimitar.

[Bluebear]

77. Well she wasn't even a Dem

So how could she portray our point of view? :shrug:

[mmonk]

80. No people are not in lock step here

Debate should be welcome. Though I didn't read all the posts when that stuff started, I didn't reply much. They seemed like posts looking for argument for arguments sake. I also try not to respond to negative "brush strokes" aimed at provocation. I look for real points and real debates, nothing contrived or too emotional. That being said, I dislike thoughts of people speaking in various ways and going to polar opposite people to speak ill of people who's trust one has garnered.

[Speed8098]

81. "what was done to her on this site today"

Honestly, she did it to herself.

When you are a moderator at a right wing website, you have no business coming here pretending to be someone you're not.

You might want to look back at your conversations with her and see if you were being used.

Sounds like she had you snowed but good.

[qanda]

84. I love your posts nostamj

I hope you plan to stick around. You seem to be a wonderful friend and vetwife is lucky to have your friendship.

[ScreamingMeemie]

87. Here's the thing...the difference between Andy and vetwife....

Andy is working for change, most times quite silently. vetwife, in my opinion, puts on a big show, posts tons of pictures, of....herself. Meeting people, getting awards...Andy truly wanted to better the party. Vetwife wanted that spotlight shining on her. I'm sorry..no pity here.

I've seen the outpouring of care and concern from DUers from one of our own...I've even felt it. vetwife abused that. And there's a lot of hurt people right now.

[cally]

88. I hope you stay

and I'm sorry for the entire episode. DU will lose a great person if you choose to leave.

I hope your business is successful. Is there anything we can do to help you in your new work?

[seabeyond]

90. i too would love ot hear about your new

business venture

[Riding this Donkey]

89. The histrionics on this thread are unbelievable.....get to the facts...eom

[Moderator]

93. Locking

These threads have gotten out of control. This is now a private matter between the admins and the banned member. If anyone has questions or comments, they can post in the Ask the Admins forum.

Thanks for your concern.