Boy Scouts: Fundie serial killers OK, gays need not apply

[Proud2BAmurkin]

PARK CITY, Kan. (Feb. 27) - Dennis Rader, the man police believe is the BTK serial killer, hid for more than 30 years in plain sight.

He lived in this suburb of Wichita, the city he is suspected of terrorizing, with a wife and two children. He led a Cub Scout troop and was active in his Lutheran church. As an ordinance enforcement officer for the local government, he could be seen measuring grass in a front yard with a tape measure to see if it was too long, a neighbor said.

[hippiechick]

1. That was my first thought. too - sadly.

GMTA :evilfrown:

[tx_dem41]

2. As much as I dislike the Scouts' stance on gays....this isn't really..

an apt or fair comparison.

[Padraig18]

3. Agreed.

:thumbsup:

[wolfgirl]

4. True...BUT

the hypocrasy of their stance regarding kids who are gay or athiests definitely comes to mind.

[tx_dem41]

6. Can you show me where they knew prior to yesterday that Rader...

was a serial killer??? Until, you can show that, there is no hypocrisy.

[kbm8170]

8. Nonsense

The comparison, to me, is obvious. The man had been murdering people over many years, and the whole Boy Scout argument is that it must insist it's leaders abide by a creed. Apparently, unless you are "gay," they'll accept the word of anyone who applies to be leader, just as we accept anyone who claims to be "christian" as such.

[tx_dem41]

11. I see your point....

the only problem with it is that to the Boy Scouts, being gay is a crime in itself.

But, you do make a very good point.

[forgethell]

19. Ridiculous.

It can insist that its leaders abide by a creed, but unless it can find out that they don't, how can they get rid of them?

Gays, too, could serve, if they didn't insist on publicizing their sexual identity. How would the Scouts know? Not that I am trying to agree with them, but this is totally illogical.

Golly, no wonder we keep losing.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

23. So gays who marry/live together are "publicizing their sexual identity"

what a pantload

[forgethell]

25. Don't change the subject.

We're not discussing gay marriage at all, but whether the Scouts should have known he was a serial killer, and your silly statement that they allow serial killers.

As for gay marriage, well what is marriage but a public statement of your commitment. Learn to think is the advice I would give.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

29. So you oppose gays making "public" statements of their commitment

?

[forgethell]

32. Not at all.

After all, it's nothing to me. I'm neither gay, nor have any desire to be associated wiwth the Scouts. But other people have the right not to associate with anybody else for any reason whatever (we're not talking about employment here, but private social association). And even if they don't, they won't. So why give them a reason, if you want to be with them? And if they don't want to be with you, why the fucking hell do you want to be with them?

All actions have consequences. One of the ones of "coming out" is that, under current circumstances, you don't get to be a Scoutmaster. It's too bad, of course, but a well known fact, which neither my opinion, nor yours, is going to change.

However, I'm pretty sure that a known serial killer would not be allowed to be a Scoutmaster, either. Which is what this conversation is about. I'll be glad to contribute to another thread on whether or not this is the correct policy.

[AngryOldDem]

36. How could the Scouts have known he was a serial killer

when no one else did?

This thread is surreal.

[Pithlet]

34. The thing is

Their stance on not allowing gays in the boy scouts was under the pretext that it was safer for the boys. Then they find out a leader is a suspect for serial murder. Hypocritical might not be the right word because I'm sure they were not aware, but ironic sure is.

[forgethell]

37. Ironic it might be.

hypocritical it is not. I'm not sure whether or not their policy makes the boys safer, or not. After all, looking at all the women teachers out there that are heterosexual, and making it with young boys, I don't know who can be trusted.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

9. They don't ask people if they're killers, only if they're gay

They're not concerned about anything other than whether someone is gay.

[dsc]

28. some run backround checks

which would be asking. I have no idea if this troop did that or didn't but the one in Ohio where my nephew went did ask for backround checks of leaders.

[mim]

42. How much would a background check reveal ...

before the police concluded that he really was the killer?

[dsc]

43. Nothing in this case

but the person was saying the BSA didn't ask when they well might have. Unless he was taking the position that a serial killer would have honestly answered a BSA questionaire. I don't think anyone should have to be clarivoient.

[RoyGBiv]

5. Correct ...

This is the sort of comparison the right-wing likes to make, and I'll have none of it.

There are plenty of reasons not to like the Boy Scouts. This is not one of them.

[mim]

12. Not a fundie

AFAIK there's no reason to think Dennis Rader is a fundamentalist. The church he belongs to is a congregation of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which despite the first word in its name, is a "mainline" church body. See my post on the subject a few threads down.

This is painful for me because I belong to a congregation of the ELCA. What if a lay leader in my congregation turned out to be a serial killer?

And when a Jewish slumlord is arrested, is that a reflection on all Jews?

[CBHagman]

7. You're really being unfair.

For all that I object to the exclusion of gays from the Scouts or the military, you can't make the case that the suspects' family, neighbors and associates, including Scouts, co-workers, and members of the church, knew of his double life. If you read the news stories, you will learn that neighbors have reacted with sympathy toward the man's wife. They assume that she, possibly the person closest to him, didn't know of the crimes.

Secondly, affiliation with a church does not automatically mean adherence to a fundamentalist doctrine. Do you automatically assume that all Muslims are fundamentalists, too? How about Roman Catholics at the Catholic Worker? Reconsider how you're reacting.

[Misunderestimator]

10. LOL... Great thread title!

[Walt Starr]

13. I wouldn't exactly call him a "fundie"

The Lutheran church is not known for its fundamentalist doctrine.

Of course the fact that its doctrine isn't fundamentalist might have something to do with that.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

17. the doctrine is don't ask don't tell n/t

nt

[seabeyond]

14. took my boys out of a fundies christian boyscout troop

concerned for the health and well being. a wow on that

[wolfgirl]

15. I don't blame the Boy Scouts (or the Lutheran Church ) for

this man's actions. I do, however, have problems with thos who denounce gays or atheists as somehow being bad or evil or whatever other negative name they want to come up with. Y

ou and & know if this guy was found to be an atheist or was gay, he would never be referred to without mentioning it....

[forgethell]

16. Do you have any

evidence that the Scouts knew he was a serial killer? Without it your whole argument fall apart. I'm sure there are any number of gay Scoutmasters who somehow managed to keep their sexual identity hidden.

Not that I am necessarily agreeing with the Scouts, but nonsense is nonsense and can only weaken our positions.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

18. The scouts didn't know because the scouts didn't bother to ask

too busy crotch sniffing

[forgethell]

20. Right you are!!

They should ask everyoneif they are a serial killer.

And, of course, they will be answered honestly. Then they will decline his services, and he can write a LTTE complaining about discrimination against serial killers. Naturally, the police will take no notice of this.

I repeat, Golly, no wonder we keep losing elections.

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Confused

What does any of this have to do with us losing elections? I am not following your logic here.

[forgethell]

40. This is just

an example of the pitiful excuse for thinking that we are using, and that keeps us from looking at the electoral situation with clear eyes.

The fact that this serial killer creep was a cub scout leader simply does not indict the Boy Scouts in any manner whatsoever. To say otherwise, and to jump on them for hypocrisy is just pathetic. Their policies can be attacked, but we should use real facts and real logic to do it.

This wasn't it. It was just a rant, an emotional scream that only shows intense frustration on the part of some Democrats. What is it they say, "Never let 'em see you sweat"? We're sweating for the entire world to see and it is affecting our reasoning.

I'm personally tired of losing elections. Aren't you?

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Much clearer now

I just couldn't get how you jumped to the conclusion you did. It seemed as silly as the premise of the thread. Now, I get where you are coming from. I see this thread as a minor vent in some ways. Sometimes, things seem so dour, that anything that comes along makes a good target.

I am tired of losing elections, but I am more tired of having candidates that can't state a damn position and stick with it! Sometimes, people can be too smart for his/her own good! :)

On edit: I forgot to say "thanks" for the answer! :)

[forgethell]

44. You're welcome.

I don't know. I vent too, sometimes, but only about things that I cannot help. It seems to me that we can help ourselves electorally, but not if we don't think clearly about why we are losing. I don't think for a minute that * stole this election. I think he whipped our asses.

As long as we refuse to face the fact that we are not resonating with the majority of American voters, for some reason, we will not win. Since 1968, 38 years, only 12 of those years have belonged to the Dems in the WH, and we've lost Congress, and are about to lose the SC, probably within 2 years. This is just too big to be a conspiracy. You know what they say: 3 men can keep a secret if 2 of them are dead. We would have something besides shaky statistical inferences if something was there.

But you are right, we need candidates that can and will take a stand. If we get beat, fine. At least we will know where we stand and can take the necessary corrections

[Astrochimp]

21. And the scouts.....................

should have caught him, even though the cops and FBI didn't (till now?)

I am sure when you become a scout master, one of the questions is- "Kid, are you now or have you even been a serial killer?"

DU is getting fuller of these stupid 'links' day by day, first the air force, now scouts. No wonder someone as ignorant as Rush always has material.

[elfin]

22. I underlined the same passage

and clipped the article and added my own "I bet he voted for Bush" alongside it.

Ever since the election I have been clipping articles, or parts of them, every day with my snotty comments to make "scrapboooks" for any future grandchildren I may have to use for history projects.

Will have one on environment, Iraq, etc.

They can see history and their grandma's sense and sensibilities and sarcasm.

Strangely therapeutic - and it forces me to read the papers more closely.

[paineinthearse]

24. Boy Scout leaders, at least in Massachusetts, need to pass a background...

...check.

These are called CORI - criminal offender record information & SORI - sex offender record information.

I am not sure if this is one-time or annual, but thanks for posting this information so I can look into it deeper.

If similar programs are not required in your state, get more information at http://www.mass.gov/chsb/cori/cori.html

[Heyo]

26. It's not as though...

...they knew he was a serial killer.

:hurts:

Heyo

[GreenInNC]

27. Eagle Scout here

I am an Eagle, camp counslor, and Scoutmaster. I truely believed the mission of the Boy Scouts for many years. I quit all this several years ago when the scouts went hardcore on the anti gay stance. I know many gays who have been wonderful leaders and there are several in my community who are still leaders. The scouts are messing up here.

[resultswithstyle]

39. Eagle Scout too

I was an Eagle Scout in the small town. I started as a Tiger Cub and work up the ranks. The Boy Scouts of America are just going to have accept the fact that men of different races, nationalities, and sexual preferences are going to join. Unless they plan to become more of a fraternal organization where they can pick and choose their members. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

-Resultswithstyle

[paineinthearse]

31. See related thread about Massachusetts child-protection laws.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3189664&mesg_id=3189664

[Bluzmann57]

33. Even if he's the guy

Where's the comparison? Are you saying that just because this ONE guy was arrested for being a serial killer that the Boy Scouts are to blame? I think thats a bunch of shit. I suppose you think that all members of one race or another are all lazy or stupid just because they are of that race. Get fuckin' real! Not all Scouts are killers. No one group of people are perfect, including homosexuals. You need to get real now.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. I think the point is...

...here this group is all worried about the "evil" homos, yet they had a serial killer in their midsts. I don't think anyone is advocating that ALL scouts are killers, or even that ALL scoutmasters are killers. What is happening is they are pointing out a discriminatory policy enacted to "protect" their kids fell short because a serial killer passed because he was not gay.

[bush_is_wacko]

38. There those "moral values" for you!

I still find it very difficult to stomach the thought that the Boy Scouts can't read the research on pedophiles and realize that the vast majority of them are MARRIED WHITE MEN WITH CHILDREN! I have had to explain to my son why he cannot be a boy scout several times and it breaks my heart that he can't be a part of boys bonding that way(as boy scouts do,not pedophiles!). Well, at least he has football and friends!

He's old enough now to really understand my reasoning and agrees with me about my sentiments, but I can remember several years from kindergarten to about third grade when he'd ask every year and I'd have to tell him no. Back then I just told him it was against our religion. Since we don't really attend church anymore he was a little perplexed. I was glad the day finally came when he quit asking, but I felt the need recently to tell him EXACTLY why and it has lifted a little of the burden of inventing a reason from my shoulders.

[lonestarnot]

45. Took my kid to the boysprouts twice when he was interested...made

those derby cars with a gay friend LOL, we won the first heat and then lost and never went back due to the first stretching exercise by a perv in the neighborhood (one of the leaders) had the boys do. I said fuck this! Kid didn't care, thought the guy was a perv too.

[bush_is_wacko]

46. Sad to think all the havens we had as kids have been overrun

by fundie-style Christianity! Oh well sports is a male bonding experience I can even watch over as a Mom and my son doesn't seem any worse for NOT having been a participant. He in fact is growing into a boy that a Mom can't help but be proud of. Just the right amount of machismo with a healthy dose of soft-heartendness thrown in. I have insured one more child will never grow into a HATER and that is was my intention all along!