No whites need apply

[alwynsw]

<snip>"Please be advised that effective immediately the Ontario region of the Correctional Service of Canada is no longer maintaining an inventory for parole officer applications from the general public," the Feb. 19 letter reads.

"Due to staffing resources we will continue to accept applications from aboriginal and visible-minority candidates only."

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2005/02/23/939636-sun.html

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. Without going into the article...

I do know that Canada completed an extensive sociological study of its criminal justice system. They recognized that racism existed in the system. Possibly, this edict may very well be an attempt to remedy years of hiring whites only

[Jonathan_Hoag]

3. Two wrongs don't make a right ...

[tx_dem41]

5. How quaint.

[Jonathan_Hoag]

12. So things like

"eqality before law", "equal oportunity employment" etc. are quaint?

[tx_dem41]

15. It's Canada. I only know about U.S. Constitutional Law.

If you are a Canadian Constitutional Law expert, I apologize.

[Jonathan_Hoag]

33. It's not only about the constitution

Discrimination based on race/ethnicity/sex etc. is wrong regardless if the constitution allows it or not.

Being against discrimination, no matter which way it cuts, is anything but "quaint".

[tx_dem41]

40. Well, if we ever have a system where the most qualified person can...

...get the job, I'll be all for it. After 20 years in private industry, I have yet to see it happen. People usually hire people thru connections. It can end up being a miserable failure.

[TN al]

23. Hi Jonathan...

...I see you are the champion of opponents of reverse racism again. How is this for a solution. Fire everyone currently holding the job but allow them to re-apply for the position. Throw the application process open to applicants of all races. Under rules that are fair to every job candidate most would be re-hired but some would not. The racial makeup of the new hires would then more accurately reflect the racial makeup of the job candidate pool. This would eliminate all of the remnants of previous discrimination. Of course all of the fired workers would have to lose all of their seniority. This would certainly be fair and under the new rules everyone would know that no favoritism was given because of race. I would think that anyone who would disagree with this solution would have a hard time arguing that they are in favor of fairness to all. I would think that opposition to that plan might indicate a preferrance for the good old boy network and the residual institutional racism that it has left.

[Orangepeel]

34. !

:thumbsup:

[Jonathan_Hoag]

37. I am against any form of race or sex based discrimination

Only you will not find any proponents of anti-black or anti-women discrimination on DU so there is no reason to attack it, at least not here. Unfortunately many people here think it is perfectly acceptable to discrimnate against white men. And so I will continue to speak out against it.

And firing everyone is not a practical solution. But eliminating institutional bias in hiring is and that includes pro-black, pro-Indian bias.

[The Backlash Cometh]

47. White males are doing alright for themselves.

Of course, the ones that keep screaming are usually the ones on the lower echelons since the competition is stiffer. They really have a class warfare problem, but I doubt they'll recognize it.

[angee_is_mad]

49. Whine, whine, whine

That's what the power structure say about blacks (who are legitimately being discriminated against) who seek to address discrimination .

I am sure there is the odd white man who has been the victim of reverse discrimination(aand?)but at the end of the day that white man is able to get another and possible a better job quicker than the poor black(minority) man or woman who supposedly has taken his job.

So Jonathon, please give me a break with your white man privilege rhetoric, because at the end of the day this country is run by white men who hire those like themselves.

Lord help the uppity Negro who has undeservedly taken some white person's job!

[Jonathan_Hoag]

55. It's noty whine ...

It's basic equal oportunity.

If you can't understand that than you are no better than people who enacted Jim Crow laws way back then.

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. Maybe you should read the sociological studies before opening

your mouth. What they showed was that prejudice against these Canadian Indians were so ingrained in whites that prison guards (among other public servants) were abusive and created a self-fulfilling prophecy. The only way to break it immediately, was to allow the aborigines a chance to be in positions of power where they could monitor the situation and fink on those whites who don't seem to get the memo.

I'm being a bit brusque, but too tired to use kid gloves with this one because it is so dang obvious.

[Jonathan_Hoag]

36. So your solution for abusive white guards

is not to hire any white guards any more (i.e. collective punsihment)?
I am sorry, Mr. Sociologist, but how is that fair or even justifiable in a free society? Or is Canada not a free society anymore?

[The Backlash Cometh]

45. The perfect solution, as someone mentioned to you earlier, is to

recognize you have an endemic situation which can best be remedied by firing everyone, then start all over again. You have a critical situation that involves basic human rights. There is a far greater damage than keeping white workers, who have proven to be untrustworthy in fixing this problem, from a paycheck. What is more urgent is to stop the physical abuse that studies have identified.

Of course, there is another way to raise the consciousness of whites in a society if you insist on equal treatment. We can begin hounding them and applying the same focus of our criminal justice system on them, as we do to minorities in our society. How would you like that? Can we begin collecting all the white boys that drive around college campuses and use the new Scalia laws to test for drugs without probable cause and reasonable doubt? Wouldn't we be living in an equal society if we did?

You can't have it both ways. But if you persist, expect minorities to push back and DEMAND that the laws apply equally to everyone. I am most curious to see how many professional careers we will destroy if we were to do just that one change.

And, btw, it's a bit hysterical to assume that these laws that encourage the increase of aborigine workers are permanent. It's a red herring to suggest they will. It's probably only going to last until they get the numbers up to an acceptable level.

[Jonathan_Hoag]

56. Racist bullshit

"There is a far greater damage than keeping white workers, who have proven to be untrustworthy in fixing this problem, from a paycheck."

This is a racist statement. I hope you realize that.

Perhapt this is meant as a temporary thing but these things have a way to remain very permanent. Just look at the so-called "affirmative action" (really legalized racial discrimination) in the US. It is also meant to be temprary, but after 40 years, it is still widely employed.

[gollygee]

58. Why do people think 40 years is so long?

How long did we have slavery? How long have we had discrimination? A generation is generally classified as about 30 years, so affirmative action has been in place for not much more than one generation. How on earth does that seem like a long time?

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gollygee]

63. It has nothing to do with revenge

the misunderstanding you have is that without affirmative action there is no action. That simply isn't true. Without affirmative action there is negative action, often called something like, "last hired, first fired." Affirmative action balances negative action. When there is no more negative action, we won't need affirmative action to balance it. That is sadly not the case yet.

[Jonathan_Hoag]

67. Prove it ...

that there would be discrimination against blacks/hispanics if say University of Michigan did not give 20 poingt sjust for being of a certain race.

You can't and it is all about revenge.

[gollygee]

69. I don't work at the U of Michigan so I don't have proof

but I know that most universities also have "legacy points" or some related system of rewarding those whose parents, grandparents, etc. went to that university. Almost all of those people would be white.

[Jonathan_Hoag]

70. Most universities abolished those

and this is not racist discrimination as legacy can apply equally to black and white students. Also legacy does not account for nearly as much as race does in universities emloying race based admissions.

[gollygee]

71. *can* apply in theory

but the fact is that due to our history of slavery and discrimination, white people have been historically much more likely to go to college. Therefore is legacy points are available, they are much more likely to go to white students.

Affirmative action in universities is also an attempt to change that statistic - that historically there have been proportinately many fewer black students going to college than white students for a number of reasons: black families are disproportionately poor in this country and therefore have historically been less able to afford higher education, and kids of college-educated parents are more likely to go to college. Therefore, if parents were less able to go to college due to racism before affirmative action at universities, or due to financial reasons, their children are less likely to go even if the money is available and affirmative action is in place.

You continually assume that things are level without affirmative action.

[Orsino]

32. Too early to tell...

If the current discrimination results in more diversity, easing ethnic tension, must it be another "wrong"? If it moves us toward a world in which there are fewer racial divisions, isn't it also a "right"?

[Jonathan_Hoag]

38. It bars people from applying to certain positions

on account of their race. That is a wrong. No matter what lofty ideological social engineering goal you might have, it harms and disregards the individual.

I also cannot fathom how a policy to restrict hiring to a certain racial group, any racial group, can ease ethnic tensions. If anything it will make the situation tenser still.

[Orsino]

62. How about...

...if the result is a more diverse group of employees in positions of authority, which perpetuates itself through their willingness to hire similarly diverse replacements?

I'll ask again: can that not also be a "right"?

[Jonathan_Hoag]

68. By that "logic"

Should NBA stop hiring black players for awhile? Just to increase diversity?

Just askin ...

[Orsino]

73. When Whites become an oppressed minority in the US...

...perhaps. If it can be shown that whites are not making the teams because of the color of their skin, maybe. When the NBA becomes a stepping-stone to better-paying jobs, probably. When the NBA begins hiring a significant fraction of the country's population, almost certainly. But I'm uncomfortable with ceding pseudo-federal power to a corporation.

[ultraist]

46. Bush is also ANTI Affirmative Action, The Democratic Party is PRO AA

[Jonathan_Hoag]

57. One of the biggest mistakes Dems are doing

And a reason why they keep losing support among white males.

[mark414]

48. irrelevant statement

this is one wrong

wrongs against non-white people are somewhere up in the thousands

you can't call for equality when it doesn't exist...

[Jonathan_Hoag]

59. All unequal treatment should be combatted

But there is a big difference between individual racial discrimination and institutional, government enacted racial discrimination. Jim Crow laws and this Canadian policy are both examples of the latter.

[applegrove]

2. Do you want these people to be good at their jobs or not? Do you want

them to be effective? Then for Christ sake - hire people from the community and have your workforce somehow resemble the people you are serving (or trying to get to not hurt anyone).

You just have to decide if you want to actually make a difference with a position like parole officer. Or if you think just 'anybody' can do that important job. Community jobs should be held by community people. Universities too.

It is the elites who do not need to see themselves reflected in every mirror. But somehow they are the ones who get their drunken, cocaine dependant, sadistic, adolescent son's into the National Guard during the war, Harvard, business, baseball team, governor, & president.

I you do not think that 'networks' make a huge difference - then what are you doing online?

[mim]

10. Community people

"Universities too."

Does that mean no white scholars need apply for academic positions?

[applegrove]

20. It means that if millions and millions of dollars go to Universitites and

that they are subsidized by the people coming from public schools that the Universities should reflect the needs of the state to a degree. I mean how many doctors do you want who can do breast surgery and move to California? Why not work things out so that your med students look a little like the community you hope they work in. And you look on everything in the application. That is what it means.

I mean would you have the universities not teach science because it is much more expensive to teach (what with the labs)? You already make choices every day that have nothing to do with ranking of grades but the needs of the community & the country.

You try and reach goals. When goals in your community are reached, or the need is less, you focus on some other program. Then someone could actually do some research into the alcohol metabolizing enzymes typical of people from northern China in the last 50 thousand years and what it means when descendants (in the Americas, northern China & Russia)of those people go drink grain based alcohol rather than milk based alcohol. And somebody studies that in the 19th Century rather than in the year 2005 because the history of that culture was the norm on university campuses rather than not.

Are you not aware that it was two rich women who put up the funding to develop the birth control pill? They were not even in Academia or involved with a University. Do you know what the leading cause of death was for women before the pill? Chilbirth. The biggest cause of death for women throughout history. And nobody at a university tried to solve the problem on their own. Same thing with breast cancer research. As more women entered the field - BOOM! Breast cancer research EXPLODES.

You use regulation to fix things the market (or whatever structure) doesn't solve and are considered issues in communities that make up the residents of the government that does 80% of the subsidy & funding of an education. When the problem no longer exists, you relax the regulations.

[David Dunham]

4. In the US, this approach would violate the US Constitution flat out

The equal protection clause would be specifically violated.

[TrustingDog]

7. and what year exactly did that start?

[David Dunham]

13. In 1873, when the 14th Amendment took effect.

[tx_dem41]

16. Did it take effect in Canada as well? n/t

[TrustingDog]

19. hmmm, when were black people allowed to vote?....

and when are women going to be paid the same as men for the same jobs?

[TrustingDog]

21. who exactly did it 'take effect' for again?

curious yellow here.

[TrustingDog]

31. I see you don't have an answer, perhaps because there is none...

that makes any sense?

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. if you're talking about non-discrimination

couldn't it be argued that not hiring based on racial or ethnic equivalence to the populations the hirees are supposed to serve would be discriminatory against that population? What is the purpose of the position being hired for -- to give somebody a job, or to provide a service to that population?

just a thought...

[Jonathan_Hoag]

64. A black prison guard can restrain a white criminal as well as black one

No reason to restrict hiring of prison guards to whites only. A black doctor can diagnose and treat a white patient as well as as black one. No reason to restrict hiring of doctors in hospitals with predominately white clientele to whites only.
And of course that equally applies in the reverse.

I just wanted to frame the examples in the reverse to make you see how problematic your statemnet is.

[Lexingtonian]

9. not true

In U.S. you just don't announce this sort of thing in this way. And it's not an equal protection problem- anyone can apply and be considered, no problem. There is a due process issue, of sorts- but you can't hire a person who can't speak Chinese to be a Chinese/English translator and the implication of the ad is of that degree of problem, so it's moot.

Ontario has a prison population that is strongly disparate from its overall population- relatively high rates of Indian and Francophone incarceration compared to the Scottish/British majority and immigrant population. The cultural problem involved is rather severe due to cultural segregation and Canadian provincialism/postcolonial.

[David Dunham]

14. The US Supreme Court has squarely held stict racial lines are illegal

The current US Supreme Court has held that strict racial quotas or lines violate the equal protection clause.

[tx_dem41]

17. Does their jurisdiction reach into Canada these days? n/t

[David Dunham]

24. Nope. But in the US such a policy would be unconstitutional. No question.

[Lexingtonian]

26. it's an amusing interpretation

and a corrupt one. You can't have strict a priori quotas, which I am fine with, but the country only works because everything ends up having functional, a posteriori, racial or gender balance relative to the customer dealt with and service delivered. It's hypocrisy to pretend that lines and quotas aren't the way things actually work.

I dare you to actually look at the reasoning of the verdicts. Integrity and scope in dealing with the 14th Amendment is exactly what distinguishes the two sides of the court and the two political sides in the country.

[ChairOne]

6. YAPOWPT...... /eom

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. huh?

please translate for the acronym impaired.

[slor]

18. Yes...what does that stand for?

[Syrinx]

25. just a guess

"you are a piece of white power trash." If that's correct, it wasn't very nice.

[ChairOne]

27. Ooops - sorry - thought people were willing to use the search function...

Yet Another Poor Oppressed White People Thread

[mark414]

44. good acronym by the way...

in case you haven't seen it...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x1337

[ChairOne]

78. lol - nice ideas there, but I'm too much of an asshole to do em.... /eom

[mark414]

41. Yet Another Poor Oppressed White People Thread

[Karenina]

74. Your guess is revealing.

Funniest.thread.today.

Lemme see if I got this right, y'all. Some guy from Kentucky posts a link about a solution Candians will apply to a problem they've identified in Canada, OP disappears (where IS that siren sample I saved :freak:). Enter outraged white male and it's off to the races we go.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[ChairOne]

79. It's always good to know who one is talking to....... /eom

[pretzel4gore]

22. it's a rightwing provocation....

for jobs in government etc an applicant gets rated for things like edjumacation (SP) age, experience etc....to offset problems faced by minorities, aboriginals, nonwhites etc, higher numbers would be given to applicants from those communities: in extreme cases, the number could effectively bar anyone BUT whoever it was the personnel dept wanted.....this 'white only' scam by the correctional service, who are the most politically correct gang of rightwingers in the province (next to police, the media and the hells angels) must be an effort to create outrage in the dominant white community (a great deal of questionable stuff goes on in the jail system anyway, mostly related to parole and 'faint hope' ie parole hearings allowed after 15 years for lifers if they now fine uptanding BORN AGAIN xians etc....prison guarding is a notoriously dreary job, and while the union protection is ok, demonising the entire system has been a long time mediawhore bread/butter issue)
like the same sex marriage issue, it looks designed to provake outrage in the salt of earth types who are the real conservatives/liberals in a society; making them feel that bush and the neocon nazipoo party MAYBE the only way to STOP THIS MADNESS....fortunately, most salt of earth type people have seen this kind of crap going on for too many years, and react disgustedly to it....bush helps, believe me, geebush helps ALOT!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. Another way right wingers provoke outrage is to

tell all the rejected white applicants "Sorry, you were the best qualified applicant, but the government is making us hire a black person for this job."

I know someone who was told this, and he didn't figure out the scam until he happened to run into someone who had been rejected for the same job, and who had also been told, "You were the best qualified applicant, but the government is making us hire a black person for this job."

Still another way to encourage white racism is to hire a black/Latino/Native American/whatever candidate who is clearly unqualified for the job. When the other workers complain, the boss says, "The government doesn't let you fire a ______________, so we're stuck." (I've heard that complaint several times from people in various workplaces. But of course, it's not true that you can't fire a person of color. It happens all the time.)

[pretzel4gore]

30. and there's no way to fight it....

except by individually teaching them, through life experience and so on....popular myths are the main item in every newspaper, and each lie take vast energy to counter.....it was liars that crucified christ, and they still rule the roost:(

[HEyHEY]

52. The Canadian justice system is rife with liberals

[shadowknows69]

35. at least they're up front about reverse discrimination n/t

[depakid]

39. Just goes to show that conservatives have a race problem

everywhere.

While some of the responses here don't surprise me (I'm used to ethnicentric Americans) I can't say that I'm not disappointed, given that this is a progressive board.

I mean, how much clearer can CSC make it:

"Representation is an integral part of today's public service, as is education, experience and linguistic capabilities."

Would people prefer that they were up front about it- or just dealt with the problem "quietly" under the table?

[ultraist]

43. exactly! Any who opposes leveling the playing field is racist

If pro active measures aren't implemented to level the playing field, it will never get leveled.

excerpts:

Conservative MP Myron Thompson called the policy "unbelievable" and "craziness" and suggested CSC is putting political correctness ahead of merit.

CSC spokesman Michele Pilon-Santilli said the pool was narrowed because a high number of applicants were competing for limited openings and it was proving "costly" to maintain the inventory. Aboriginal and minority candidates must meet all requirements for the job, she stressed.

"They are under-represented in both of those areas, so those are the only CVs they are maintaining right now," she said.

"We do have a diverse population and we need to serve Canadians.

"Representation is an integral part of today's public service, as is education, experience and linguistic capabilities."

[Jonathan_Hoag]

61. So not hiring whites

as a matter of government policy is "progressive"? No, it is as regressive as not hiring blacks as a matter of government policy.

You can't switch colors and call youraself a progressive. It's about ideas, not what race you like to discriminate against.

[depakid]

75. That's a very simplistic "black & white" view

and simplistic views don't lend themselves to solving complicated problems.

Complicated problems- like decreasing expensive aboriginal (you'd call them "Indians") incarceration rates and economic dependence- and encouraging rehabilitation and integration into society through among other things, productive employement- require well thought out and coordinated solutions.

Canadians have studied this problem extensively, and determined that the best- and most inexpensive- way to deal with it is to have:

"More Aboriginal people need to be involved in every aspect of the justice system. We need to see the appointment of more Aboriginal judges, justices of the peace, police officers, prison guards, corrections officers, court workers and administrative staff."

http://www.ccja-acjp.ca/en/abori6.html

Where progressives differ from conservatives is that progressives use scientific, evidence based, results oriented approaches.

Conservatives rely on simplistic ideology, slogans and unsound methods.

Conservatives oppose honest sex education- just because they don't like it- even though the evidence shows it works. Instead, they impose 'abstinance only' programs- even though no scientific study has ever demonstrated that they are effective and there is considerable evidence that where they are used exclusively, teen pregancy and STD rate rise (talk about a waste of money).

Progressives are the one's who got mankind to the moon- conservatives (largely because of their inept management practices and misunderstanding of basic microeconomics) are the one's who crashed the space shuttle. Twice.

[mark414]

42. so what?

white people control everything in america and white people control everything in canada, but people here are actually upset because a handful of white people aren't eligible for some jobs?

at least those white people still have a better chance of finding another job, of making thousands of dollars more per year over the average lifetime, of having a LONGER lifetime, being less likely to live in poverty or crime-ridden neighborhoods, and so on, and so on, and so on.

the children of these white people will go to better schools, are more likely to go to college, are more likely to be able to AFFORD to go to college.

and people are complaining because a few white people can't get one specific job.

pathetic.

[HEyHEY]

50. "white people control everything in canada"

Canada is more complex than that.

[mark414]

53. this coming from someone who

calls this program "disgusting" and "racist"

i'd say you still have a lot to learn...

[Jonathan_Hoag]

65. How would you feel if ..

Blackes were "upset" because government barred them from certain jobs?

This is not about playing field, this is about keeping the playing field permanently tilted to keep/get minority votes.

[Wat_Tyler]

77. As far as I am aware, Canada is the most ethnically-diverse country

on the planet. You're sailing pretty close to racism with your post.

[mark414]

82. far from it my friend

why is this something that's so hard for people to understand?

a few white people can't get a job and all these folks scream racism?

any white person who loses out on this job has a much better chance than ANY black man (or any other non-white) of easily finding another job, hell even a BETTER job, and has a better chance of making more money doing it while rising faster in the ranks.

it is NOT racism and you are extremely mistaken. the method you are employing is the very same method used by the right to rail against affirmative action. "oh look, they won't hire white people now, dark people are taking our jobs, this is racist!"

it's a bullshit argument from a made up problem.

these measures are absolutely essential, because as history has shown, equality between the races isn't something that most people strive for voluntarily, whether consciously or otherwise.

read some of this guy's articles and maybe you'll understand

http://www.zmag.org/bios/homepage.cfm?authorID=96

[HEyHEY]

51. It's disgusting

I understand the ideal they speak of, but it's flat out racist.

[tinonedown]

54. What is a visible minority?

Are they taking the tone of a persons skin into account? What do they mean?

[Jonathan_Hoag]

66. I would say ...

that European immigrants incl. European Jews etc. need not apply either. Even though Jews or say Swedes are an minority also. Just not the one left loves to give preferential treatment to.

[Vladimir]

72. Law enforcement needs this

perhaps more than any other area of employment. A police force exists to reassure citizens that their well-being is looked after and that they will not be victims of criminal activity (and obviously to catch criminals and so on...). It absolutely cannot do this job if it does not have a proper representation from minority communities, and that sort of representation isn't just gonna come about throguh waving a magic wand around the place...

[Wat_Tyler]

76. Well, if that's what they need to do to boost visible-minority recruitment

They've fucked up. These things cannot be legislated or enforced - greater representation should be a goal, but it should not be a goal reached at the exclusion of others.

[Tyler Durden]

80. Threads like this make me glad I'm 52 years old...

...so I won't have to listen to White Males whine about their priveliges being shorted for more than another 30 years or so.

Pop quiz for my fellow white males:

Which race is vastly over represented in the Government, Police, everywhere in fact EXCEPT in the MILITARY, and then over represented in the Navy and Air Force (this extends to Canada as well)?

Right.

And which race is vastly over represented in the highest halls of learning (largely due to shitty schools and schooling where non-whites predominate)?

Right.

And which race is vastly over represented at the highest levels of Corporate office? (This one could include Women, too, but we won't go there at the moment)?

Right.

I rest my case.

This is NOT going to be solved in our lifetimes, but the WHITEOUS INDIGNATION would be more plausable if it were accompanied 100% of the time with a DEMAND for better education for POOR, NON-WHITE MINORITIES. Until you are ready to work toward THAT side of your "equal access" argument, then, please don't take this personally, but your argument is full of shit.

[ChairOne]

81. ROFL - "whiteous indignation" - LMAO /eom

[Moderator]

83. Locking.....

This is flamebait.



DU Moderator