Christian Serial Killers

[bloom]

Someone defensively mentioned on an earlier thread that pagans and atheists can be bad people, also. Someone had posted that a Freeper was worried we were going to have a field day over the BTK guy being a white, Christian, male, cub scout leader.

I have quite a bit of sympathy for the members of BTK's church and town. It's very creepy. I don't wish that on anyone.

Nevertheless - pagans and atheists have to put up with this notion - esp. in "red" areas - that Christians are automatically good people and non-religious people are not good and are, in fact "bad". Some of those same people who think that Christians are automatically "good" are racist bigots. While most people seem to have enough sense not to mention it - I've heard things slip out. The principal of a high school condemned Hindus, for instance of being "godless" as if this meant they were evil and he said they were all going to hell.

I think it's good for people to think they are good - to have a positive self-image - I don't see it a positive for people not to care or to think of themselves as hateful people. But this business of Christians thinking they are good and everyone else is bad is really annoying. And I think they should get over themselves.

[eallen]

1. It's important to distinguish when crime is committed for a cause...

The BTK kill wasn't driven to kill because he was Christian, and Christianity doesn't get any particular blame because one Christian turns out to be a serial killer. James Kopp was driven to kill because he was Christian, and Christianity does get some blame for fetus fetishists who are driven to violence.

Pretty simple distinction, once one thinks a bit on it.

[bloom]

5. Trouble is....

a lot of people have the notion that just because someone goes to church, etc. that this automatically makes that person "good". So you have the phenomena in a small town - or even bigger towns that a person is only respectable because they are doing all of the typical church-going things.

I'm just saying that is BS.

I'm not saying that Christianity did anything to make the person do this - although as a society there may be things that precipitate violent behavior. I could just imagine someone thinking that Church is supposed to "cure" that. It obviously doesn't.

[ultraist]

11. I agree. Many people do have a preconceived notion about church goers

That they are "good Christians who wouldn't break the law or do bad things." And it's a MYTH.

The fact is, some churches create and perpetuate hate that leads to social violence. Misogynistic, Racist, Homophobic teachings lead to hate; hate leads to violence.

Some people believe that if something is cloaked in a Bible quote that it is "good and right." Not so.

Some of the most atrocious crimes we've seen have been seeded in fundamentalist "Christian" beliefs.

[smoogatz]

6. The pathology of serial killers

Is all about repressed rage being manifested in really ugly ways. The idea of living a secret life is there, too--and often there's a lot of weirdness about good and evil. Serial killers tend to have been abused as children, and such practices are common in extreme fundie households (the rod of correction and all that). Shame and violence associated with sex, repressed rage, obsession with good vs. evil, fascination with living a secret life--these are all phenomena that occur in verying degrees in LOTS of kids that are raised in extremely strict religious homes. There IS a link--a number of serial killers were the product of fundie households.

[Democrats_win]

2. "christians" are subsidized via tax exemptions unlike pagans.

Democrats still have a tolerant view of "christians," but one day, people will realize the truth: false christians are the greatest evil in the world today.

How much proof do we need? BTK, WMD lies leading to war, RW "ministers" supporting a lying thief, military spending at the expense of helping the poor, Enron and numerous corporations reneging on promises to pay pensions, corporations dirty dealings on Wall Street, RW trying to steal people's SS, and worst of all, false christains claiming tax exempt status while campaining for this monster.

[Bluzmann57]

3. Wasn't goingto post about religion anymore but

Real Christians are tolerant, although not tolerant of a guy like BTK. The people you speak of aren't real Christians. How do I know? Extensive religious education as a child. And the principal you speak of isn't a true christian either. Now don't get me wrong, I've had more than one person "inviting" me to come back into the church fold. I just don't believe that a person has to attend church and go through a structured service to prove his or her christianity. Once again, these so called christians of which you speak aren't christians at all, just self serving types who need to rip others in order to make themselves feel better.

[bloom]

10. I'm afraid that it is more typical

than people want to admit.

The principal said that at a church dinner.

I also heard Christian old ladies at the book club spout off racist nonsense. I quit going.

It would be interesting to know how many Christians are racists compared to the rest of the population. And to know about Republicans/Democrats, too, for that matter.

It's pretty obvious that Republican Christians are using the "we are better" meme.

Ann Coulter summed it up on Cspan - "Republicans believe in God, Democrats believe they are God." With the assumption that people who believe in God are of course superior and good.

[ultraist]

13. The KKK is a "Christian" group, Fundies are watered down KKKers, IMO

If you look compare the KKK platform to the Repuke platform, you will see a lot of parallels. Same goes for the KKK and some of the Fundie churches. It's a similiar worldview.

[displacedtexan]

4. Serial Killer Robert L. Yates, Jr.

Note: I googled "Christian Serial Killer" and found references to lots of serial killers!

During the 5 1/2-week trial, prosecutors told jurors this was Yates "his evil hobby." He killed for thrill of it and because he enjoyed sex with his dead victims. The death penalty was sought in this trial. Robert Lee Yates Sr. talked about his and his wife's joy at their son's birth, and his pride as Yates became a boy who never "sassed" him and always obeyed. Yates played baseball and football, and fished and hiked with his father.

Attorneys showed photos of Yates as a baby, in a tiny suit, with his little sister, and through the years in a military uniform and later with his children. The elder Yates acknowledged that his son didn't confide in him and that he married his second wife before divorcing his first.

Recently, Yates Sr. said, his son has returned to his Seventh-day Adventist faith.

"He fell away from God," the father said. "He went to the depths. But he's come back, and I really feel it's sincere." Crying, he continued, "I love him so much, and I've told him a good many times. I abhor what he's done, but I love him just the same."

http://www.karisable.com/skazyates.htm

[mrsadm]

7. Connections between religiousity and killers?

This does make me wonder about the connection between religion and people who kill. Psychologically speaking, are religious types more challenged mentally and become psychotic? Or the other way around, are psychotics somehow comforted by being religious?

Time for NPR to interview some experts!

[Roland99]

8. Mental illness knows no religious boundary.

[bloom]

38. I'm talking more about self-righteousness

I was going to write that pomposity knows no religious boundary either - but you know what - it does.

The Christian Fundamentalists, just like the Islamic Fundamentalists - get on a power kick and think that the are ordained by God and that gives them the right rule the world or the town as the case may be.

[msongs]

9. adolf hitler is heaven too ya know......he accepted JC on his deathbed...

as we know everyone...EVERYONE...who accepts JC as his saviour goes to heaven no matter how naughty they were. this is the out clause for the Xians. the money grubbing power mad priest class realized regular people would never get to heaven (and contribute money while alive) if they actually had to live up to the beliefs of the religion, so they let em into heaven with the get into heaven free card..confession.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[shrike]

24. Hitler committed suicide

So it must have been a split-second conversion. Have any references for that? I remember reading a bit about Hitler's last days, and don't recall "born again" being among them.

And hadn't he been a churchgoer anyway? A baptized Catholic?

[hfojvt]

26. ya make it sound so calculated

Perhaps the story where one of the people being crucified next to Jesus is told that he will be in paradise after death was put in there to justify salvation by confession.

[mzmolly]

12. I agree. But, let's not confuse 'Christians' with "Pseudo-Christians"

;)

[bloom]

20. Of course a lot of the "Pseudo-Christians"

think they are the most Christian of all.

I think a good many of them (most of them) mean well.

But they also want to think they are better than everybody else.

[mzmolly]

29. They do appear to think their "proverbial" shit doesn't stank.

;)

[Padraig18]

14. There's no connection between mental illness and religion.

:eyes:

[bloom]

16. There is also no connection between mental illness and non-religion

But some Christians think they are "driving out demons" or something.

And I think some people think they are improving their mental health by going to church. (Some might think they are improving it by staying away :) ).

[Padraig18]

18. Exactly.

This whole thing is a non-issue, IMO.

:shrug:

[bloom]

22. Not exactly

just because anyone can be mentally ill - does not mean that (some) Christians don't think they have a monopoly on goodness.

I think it's one of the reasons people go to church - to work on their social acceptability. To think they are in with the good crowd - and to think that everyone in that crowd tries to follow certain behavioral, societal norms. Many churches I've been to seem to be all about conformity of a social/behavioral nature.

Not that that means that it works for everybody - obviously.

[Modem Butterfly]

15. Most criminals in the US are Xians

Probably because most people in the US are Xians.

That being said, I think that religion would be appealing to someone who likes to have control over his life and the life of others. BTK is a control freak, and religion is one more way of maintaining control. Religion has an appeal to the insane.

[NC_Nurse]

17. I agree with that

if you've ever worked with the mentally ill you know that religion tends to be a favorite obsession with many schizophrenic/psychotic patients. Not restricted to Christianity, of course, but since it dominates this culture that's what you hear most.

[Modem Butterfly]

19. I guess it's the "unseen world" aspect of it all

Religion and other supernatural beliefs are ways of making sense and manipulating the real world without actually doing something physical. You can say a prayer and someone will get better, you can not step on a crack and your mother will stay healthy. You can make a small doll, stick pins in it, and your enemies with suffer.

The sane can keep the unseen world balanced with physical reality. The insane can't.

[eallen]

21. Well, there is a correlation between crime and religion.

Religious believers are overrepresented in our prisons. Prisons are one of our most religious institutions. But be careful. Correlation does not imply causation, and I seriously doubt -- with the exception of a few cases of Christian terrorism -- that religion causes crime. My own suspicion is that this correlation is a side effect of two other correlations: (a) the inverse correlation between education and crime, and (b) the inverse correlation between education and religion. In other words, my suspicion of the cause is that education both depresses religion and lessens the likelihood of criminal behavior, the former because religion is a variant of superstition, and the latter simply because education opens doors to other opportunity.

[shrike]

25. But were they believers before they went to prison?

I've heard of many becoming converts (Christianity or Islam) after they went behind bars. Do they think it will give them strength to survive the ordeal -- lead to a reduction in their sentence?

[eallen]

28. Interesting question. Personally, I'm skeptical of most conversions.

I suspect the vast majority of conversions, whether due to prison or a tent preacher, are simply people who already believe making some sort of psychological commitment, rather than unbelievers who suddenly adopt belief. As you point out, there can be a lot of motivation to practice religion under some circumstances.

[Modem Butterfly]

33. I think most were Xians before they committed their crimes

I imagine many who weren't religious but who join in prison do so out of boredom, stress, and peer pressure.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. There's a story about that

A Lutheran prisojn chaplain here in Minnesota was concerned because so many inmates in the state prison had been raised Lutheran. He wondered if there was something in the religion that turned people to criminality, so he decided to write to state prison chaplains all around the country, asking for the percentage of Lutherans in their population.

One of the first letters he got back was from a prison chaplain in Mississippi, asking, "What's a Lutheran?"

[liberalitch]

23. His opiate wasn't strong enough....

[manna]

27. since we're on the subject of serial killers

Is it possible that the phenomia is created?

---

1. True or False: During his tenure as Governor of the state of Texas, George W. Bush signed off on every execution order that crossed his desk.


2. True or False: Serial killer Ted Bundy once worked as a spy for Washington Governor Dan Evans, gathering intelligence on political opponents; Evans later wrote Bundy a glowing letter of recommendation to attend law school.


3. True or False: Aspiring serial killer Richard Ramirez once demonstrated his high-level political connections while on a high school trip to Washington, D.C. by arranging for his friends an impromptu private tour of the Vice President's office.


4. True or False: Serial killer Edmund Kemper's service records reveal that he was the subject of MK-ULTRA experiments while he was stationed at a U.S. military hospital in West Germany.


much more here

http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr65.html

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[0007]

32. Wanna bet that the Dennis Rader show will go as quietly as

the Ted Kaczynski show and indeed not hardly a peep out of the Eric Rudolph show.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ScaRBama]

34. There are always some bad apples....

in any religion or faith. I've said it a hundred times{Just because someone claims to be a Christian does that mean they are a Christian?}
If I were the Devil himself where do you think I would want to hide?
I wouldn't want to stick out like a sore thumb. I would be the old wolf in sheep's clothing. Very few people would ever see my true nature until it was too late.
There are good people in every faith and there are also good people who have no faith at all. Then you have the flip side of the issue and there are evil people in the mix.
You can't condemn and cut down the whole Apple Tree just because you have a bad Apple or two.

[bloom]

36. My intent was not at all to condemn

all the Christians.

I just condemn the idea that Christians are better than other people and the pressure in Christian communities for everyone to follow along. And that people should not make any assumptions about anyone just because of their so called faith or not.

It's the Republican meme these days. And I reject it.

Republicans would like nothing better IMO than for non-Christians to be excluded from public office for instance. Excluded from being a school teacher perhaps. Etc.

[ScaRBama]

37. I understand your point.....

I don't care if a person is or is not of any faith, that should have no bearing on how we treat them.
We people are very bad about turning on others because they choose a different route.
I don't think anybody should be kicked out of any job for their faith or not having a faith. This is our big problem in this WHOLE world.......SOME LOVE TRYING TO PLAY GOD.