How's this for an activist group, Citizens for Medical Bankruptcy Reform?

[liberalhistorian]

I am absolutely infuriated with the bankruptcy "reform" currently being considered by the Senate. I have informed both of my senators and my congressman, all repukes, of my extreme displeasure with this so-called "reform", but I'm not too hopeful that they'll even bother to listen to those of us who disagree with them.

I'm a paralegal who is thoroughly knowledgeable about bankruptcy law, the causes of bankruptcy, the Fair Debt Collection Act and the Fair Credit Reporting Act. The majority of bankruptcies are filed due to job losses, divorce, or overwhelming medical bills due to a serious illness. There was a study that was just released showing that more than half of all bankruptcy filings are by middle-class families hit hard by medical bills, even those who had insurance. Treatment for most illnesses now, especially cancer and other serious diseases, is so expensive that having insurance is no guarantee at all since there's so many co-pays, deductibles, and most insurance doesn't pay full amounts. Therefore, families hit by these illnesses are having to file bankruptcy after exhausting their savings and most of their other assets, in order to avoid losing their homes and what little they may have left.

To say that that is despicable and unconscionable is quite the understatment. We are the ONLY industrialized country that has to put up with this shit. The last thing we should have to worry about when we or a family member becomes ill with cancer or another serious illness is worry about financial matters and losing their homes, jobs, assets, etc., to the goddamn ever-greedier for-profit health care system. My uncle is suffering from terminal cancer and he and my aunt are having to deal with medical collectrolls and financial ruin instead of focusing on him. Their carefully-built-up good credit sucks now thanks to that, which is also unbelievable bullshit. There is more and more statistical and anecdotal evidence of the impact of medical bills and the financial aspect of serious illness on more and more Americans, especially those in the middle class who never had to experience that before. The uninsured and lower-income people have always had to deal with this shit, but now it's affecting millions more people. My best friend fought cancer for seven years, the same kind that killed her father, and won, but at the cost of being totally ruined financially and employment-wise, since she was unable to work for a very long time.

And now the fucking congress and senate want to screw these people even more? The very senators and congressmen who have the best health insurance in the country, are now gleefully making it so much harder for those who pay their salary and who do NOT have the luxury of that kind of insurance, to keep from losing their homes and everything they have because they have the nerve to get sick or have a sick spouse/child. And yet they have the nerve to call these people "irresponsible" and "deadbeats." Misfortune comes to even the most hard-working, responsible people, I've seen it myself time and time again.

So, I'm considering forming a new activist group that will address this particular issue should this damned "reform" actually be passed and I'm afraid it will be, given the current crop of congressional corporatists and Dems who are too chicken and also beholden to corporate interests to stand up for us. This legislation will potentially cause unbelievable hardship for hundreds of thousands of people who do NOT deserve it. Making an exception for medical bills in the bankruptcy "reform" would be the primary focus of this group. The secondary focus would be making it illegal to put medical bills on credit reports, where they most assuredly do NOT belong and never have. It still boggles my mind that they were ever allowed to be put on credit reports in the first place, and I delight in telling medical debt collectrolls that.

So, what do you all think? Do you think this is a good idea? Anyone who wants to help, feel free to email or PM me.

[madmark]

1. I Agree As To The Bankruptcy Causes

I have practiced in the area for 12 years and the causes of bk that I see are in descending order divorce, illness, injury, job loss, and entrepreneurial risk. Only about 5% of the cases I have seen (both on the debtor and creditor side) could be characterized as abusive and there are already tools in place to deal with them. The current proposed bill awful and will drive hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of American out of the above ground economy.

[liberalhistorian]

6. And the so-called "reform"

will make thing so much harder on attorneys who represent debtors, to the point that many I know are planning on simply going into another area of the law rather than deal with the bullshit. Of course, the "creditors rights" attorneys (what a misnomer, since creditors already have all the rights in the world) aren't touched, naturally.

[Enquiringkitty]

2. Bush is taking away any safety net the public has against the demands of

Corporate America (his "base"). He is protecting his buddies! I have had two relatives who sued their doctors due to stupid things that were done. One took out her ovaries when he was to take out a polyp on her colon. The other died because the doctor left a 5oz sponge inside, then told her family that the fever was normal right up to 20 mins before she went into shock. She died a couple of hour later. Doctor are over worked, suffer from lack of sleep, take their own drugs and have emotional issues of their own. These things lead to lack of attention and mistakes. Someone should answer for those mistakes, if they are blatant.
Bankruptcy is the replacement for "Debtor's Prison". Are we looking at a return of debtor's prison? With no safety net, what will be the result of the inability to pay promptly without bankruptcy options?

[liberalhistorian]

4. The result will be people's lives

becoming pure hell, that's what. Even if they have nothing to take and all they can find is a shit job, they will be endlessly, relentlessly hounded and their wages from said shit job will be garnished, leaving them with even less than they already have. And that will also happen to middle class families as well, as it already is with the current health care system and employment situation. I really believe we will see some form of debtor's prison in its place.

[Enquiringkitty]

7. My son just brought up "Work Farms". He says that debtor would

probably be made to repay their debts by working it off at government projects just like the system we have for underage offenders .... "Community Service" except on the federal level on behalf of corporations. Never thought of that. He is 23 and this shows where the mind set of his generation is. They fear the future on many levels.

[liberalhistorian]

12. Ugh, what a chilling thought,

but all too possible, unfortunately. Corporations are the modern gods and they're sticking their tentacles in more and more of our daily lives, at the behest of their slavering lackeys in the congress and senate. Corporate "personhood" was perhaps one of the worst Supreme Court decisions EVER, next to the Dred Scott decision. If we don't do something about this now, corporations will become all-powerful in all of our lives, even those of us who don't work for them. Their overreaching into our personal lives alone (demanding employees quit smoking even in their homes, keeping tabs on everything they do, including medical history, etc., etc.) is chilling enough. Enough is enough!

This is exactly the way things were a hundred years ago with the "robber barons", and it took a populist movement to bring them down. It's time for another one, people.

[madmark]

10. Payday Lenders Are Using Criminal Law Coercion

Payday lenders require post dated checks at the time of the loan then can threaten a criminal prosecution if there is ever any default using state nsf check criminal laws. Payday lenders are funded by, and I believe as a practical matter are, fronts for CC companies. Payday Lenders lobby for and obtain state usery law exceptions. This is an explosive area of growth for the CC companies, and coupled with this new awful Bill, well obviously it will be as you put it pure hell on the middle class.

[liberalhistorian]

13. Oh, yeah, don't even get me started

on those modern-day Shylocks. There's a reason why they tend to be concentrated in poor neighborhoods, especially those that aren't served by banks or other financial institutions. But they're actually popping up everywhere, even in my middle-class town. Absolutely sickening.

[solinvictus]

16. Payday lenders

The whole scheme is a racket: it's agreed that for all understood purposes, the lender is accepting a bad check as a deferred security on borrowed money. It seems like legalized check kiting to me.

[EVDebs]

3. In California at least in prison they have complete healthcare that

the state is paying for, I don't know if this is nationwide or not.

If things keep going the way they are, they'll be bringing back 'debtors prisons' like in the 18th century.

What really needs reformed are the usury law exemptions on credit cards etc. but the banking lobbyists seem to have a lock on our congressmen.

[liberalhistorian]

5. The health care industry is already

attempting to bring back debtor's prison in modern form. A Wall Street Journal (of all papers!) expose last year detailed how hospitals are now among the most aggressive bill collectors in the country, not hesitating to garnish meager wages, foreclose on homes, place liens on assets and property, etc., etc.

But the worst and most chilling tactic of all was their use of a rarely-used, but unfortunately legal, extreme collection tactic known as "body attachment", whereby people who didn't show up in court for their medical bills cases or who couldn't meet the outrageous payment plans insisted on by the hospitals (plans that had nothing to do with how much the person could actually afford and what other expenses they had) were actually arrested and thrown in jail. It was an unbelievable read, but all too true. And the uninsured are the ones getting soaked the most, since they're charged so much more than insured patients and they're less likely to be able to pay.

[davsand]

11. Lucette Lagnado wrote that article.

It was the front page article in the WSJ sometime around Halloween 2003.

THAT article was the beginning of the media focus on hospital billing and collections practices. there have been many more since then--but none quite as deeply personal to me. If you want a REALLY fascinating read, take a look at the report the Minnesota AG just put out in the last month.

That report is, without a doubt, one of the most extensive collections of patient abuse stories I have ever seen. The hospital industry KNOWS that the media is just waiting to tell those heartbreaking stories, and the lawyers know it too.

Last week at the ABA conference, the health law group had a panel discussion about hospital billing and collections practices. One speaker actually told hospital lawyers to "treat every patient as if their story might end up on the front page of the WSJ or the local newspaper."

Some of the hospital industry gets it--others have not figured it out yet. Some of the hospitals have begun to work on pricing changes and on establishing safe harbors for the medically indigent/under insured. There are a few papers out recently that are discussing how they can provide sliding scale charges and still comply with Federal regs. The health care finance guys are telling the hospitals to clean it up or risk investors running away to less "dangerous" investments.

Make no mistake--changes are coming but it isn't going to be here overnight. One thing you can do is to organize locally and take on the hospitals and shitty collection practices. Make a big stink about it and start working on STATE level regs to control behaviors that are disgusting.

Make a huge stink about putting medical bills on credit reports--that is a good one and that can be done at a state level as well. (I doubt you will have much luck on that issue at a Federal level given the obligations that hospitals have to attempt to collect unpaid balances (its part of the whole federal program guidelines.)

Work on making a point in public about the local hospitals and WHAT exactly your community REALLY gets in the way of community benefits. you'd be surprised at what hospitals attempt to pass off as a community benefit, and it should make you hurl if you take a hard look at it.

I'm talking about MARKETING programs for hospitals that are written off as a "Community Benefit." I'm talking about hospitals writing off volunteer hours done by employees on their own time (like service on a church board) as a "community benefit." I'm talking about hospitals writing off amounts in the millions of dollars--patients that are STILL being hounded by collection agencies--as a "Community Benefit."

I am delighted to see you organizing. Go for it and kick ass!!!

Let me know if you need links to stuff or more info!


Laura

[liberalhistorian]

14. Thank you, Laura, I have always

appreciated your extensive knowledge and experience in this area. I believe you were the one who first brought DU's attention to the WSJ article, since you were interviewed by the author if I'm remembering right. Things have gotten steadily worse since then, frankly.

I was recently sued by our local hospital; fortunately, my former boss, an attorney, took care of it for me at no cost and was able to work out a better payment plan than normal because he was friends with the hospital's attorney. He and I share a strong, visceral disgust for and dislike of collections, creditors rights, and hospital attorneys; frankly, as a paralegal, they make me sick. Using your knowledge and talents to screw people suffering misfortune and misery is just unbelievable.

Focusing on state laws for medical bills on credit reports is an interesting idea, but since credit report law is federal and not state, I'm not sure how that would work. Any info or help you could give would be greatly appreciated.

[davsand]

15. I am firmly convinced reform will come locally.

I think any changes we will see in the hospital industry will be forced ones--created locally. (Lord knows guys in DC like Frist could give a shit about anyone except the ones with money...)

My suggestion is that you look into the idea of making it a STATE law that prohibits medical debt being reported by hospitals in your state. I was working off the cuff there--so bear with me--but if your state had ANY control over hospitals and the licensing of them--or of the accreditation of them--they CAN put some teeth into this.

Maybe it is a matter of attaching it to the property tax exemptions, maybe it is a matter of putting it on as a requirement for participation in any of the state medical programs. I dunno--maybe it is a matter of CITY ordinance?? Really--you are limited only by what means you have to grab them by the...er...attention getting body parts.

What I have come to see is the need for all of us to step OUTSIDE the run of the mill. Where can you get some control and HOW can you use it? THAT is what you look for when you are trying to force a change.

Let me chew on it--and let me chat with a few of my buddies. This has potential--and I think it can work.


Laura

[liberalhistorian]

17. Thanks, Laura, any

help or advice would be appreciated. And I see what you mean about medical debts incurred within the state, that would certainly be a good way to get things started. Every single person I know, no matter the political affiliation, is infuriated by the fact that medical bills go on credit reports so I think that's something that almost everyone can relate to.

[davsand]

18. Medical Debt is a visceral thing. People GET it.

What makes this all so amazing to me is the fact that the people they target for most of the predatory collections actually only end up paying less than 10% of the bill when it is all said and done. The stats on that are staggering.

What is even MORE horrible is the realization that most people WANT to pay until the hospitals get overly aggressive with collections--then they just give up and say "screw it."

The hospitals are CREATING this.

One CEO admitted freely that he had no idea who or even HOW MANY people his hospital sued in a year. (Remember--they routinely pay these guys salaries that exceed $100,000 a year.)

We buried an old friend between Christmas and the New Year. He was what a lot of people see as "disposable," I guess. He was gay, over 50, and had worked retail for most of his life. He had no insurance and he died in the waiting room of his local hospital.

He was at home for several DAYS with horrible chest pains and only went to the ER when his brother FORCED him to. He kept on arguing that he couldn't afford to get treatment, and that he just wanted to die at home where it wouldn't cost anything.

Sometimes I've wondered why the hell I ever started down this path. It has had moments where I seriously doubted my sanity for ever picking it up. Other times I know damn well why I'm here and why I refuse to sit down and shut up. After Brian died I was sure I could never let up again.

We can't afford to sit down. Too many people will die if we do, and every DAY somebody out there has to sit at home and decide if they are SICK enough to consign themselves to indentured servitude. In some cases those people will die because they didn't seek care.

I find it morally repugnant that we live in a nation with so much--yet so many have no access to a basic right like health care.


Laura

[liberalhistorian]

19. I'm so sorry about your friend.

Unfortunately, that's the reality for far too many people in this country now. What I do not understand at all is why more people aren't up in arms in outrage about this to their reps so that Congress actually hears us instead of focusing on the phoney-baloney bullshit so-called malpractice "crisis".

I know how frustrating it must be at times, but this is a critically important issue affecting almost everyone in this country and I'm determined to help however I can. That's why I want to get serious and really start doing something instead of just bitching.

[flaminbats]

8. watch as Republicans slash their political necks..

many of those who back the "Christian Coalition" also spend much of their time tending to the needs of those who have declared bankruptcy due to Cancer, Diabetes, or kidney failure. I personally know many such Republicans who still would be millions of dollars in medical debt if not for the ability to declare bankruptcy.

None of them believe in national healthcare, but all view Chapter 7 and 13 as just another part of the free market which could be taken for granted. If the Republicans sabotage the only way for many to get basic medical care without leaving behind massive debts to their children and grandchildren, Republican leaders nationwide will draw the wrath of many neocons in the bible belt who now call themselves pro-life!

[liberalhistorian]

20. I think things are going to have to get

much worse before that happens, before people start really opening their eyes. That's where this group would come in, because I frankly think that this bankruptcy "reform" will pass and that's when we will really have our work cut out for us. But I'm ready, willing and more than able!

[NVMojo]

9. I'm with you, man. I have taken on for-profit greedy medical corps before

and you know that Frist's family was from one of the orginal, largest for profit healthcare chains in America? That means healthcare to him is about stockholders just like credit cards. These are sick bastards who think we all exist here to give them more and more reasons to shake out our pockets for their corporate profits. I hate these repuke fuckers.