Terri Schiavo's parents are now attacking marriage itself

[Modem Butterfly]

I am utterly freaking amazed at these people. They are so concerned with keeping their daughter's body alive at all costs that they're now attacking marriage itself. Check it out:

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/030105/met_18094997.shtml

Also Monday, Schiavo's parents asked a Pinellas County circuit judge to allow her to divorce her husband. They accused Michael Schiavo of adultery, neglect and "not acting in the best interest of Terri."

Their daughter is in a permanent vegetative state, and can't do anything anymore, let alone divorce her husband. But her parents are unhappy with her husband and want the marriage dissolved. Talk about a dangerous precedent! They're so obsessed with keeping their daughter's body alive that they're willing to basically destroy marriage to do it. If this line of argumentation were to be successful, the ramifications would be stunning. Any third party could demand a divorce. "We don't think our son should be married to someone of a different race," "Our daughter didn't intend to marry someone Jewish," "My mother may seem competent, but what sixty year-old in her right mind would marry a thirty year-old man?"

I'm just freaking aghast at the gall of these people.

[gWbush is Mabus]

1. i bet they are on the religious right's PAYROLL

[Modem Butterfly]

3. I'm sure of it

I'm thinking TV rights, books, the lecture circuit, maybe even a major motion picture (Mel Gibson's company could do it). These people are on the make in a big way.

[KittyWampus]

21. Indeed, Their Lies About The Husband (He's In It For Money) Reeks

of typical rightwing projection.

The money, as regards insurance, is nonexistant.

[FreedomAngel82]

Isn't it always

about money? :shrug: :eyes:

[barb162]

122. here's something that says the opposite; he got a nice $$$ amount

"Schiavo began seeking court permission to remove his wife's feeding tube shortly after receiving a $1.2 million medical malpractice award, $700,000 of which was to be dedicated to Terri's care and rehabilitation. If the feeding tube is removed, doctors predict Terri would die of dehydration within a week to ten days. If she survived longer, they believe starvation would kill her within two weeks.

To view CNSNews.com 's long-term coverage of the Terri Schindler Schiavo case, click here."

Now I don't know if this CNSNews is some right-wing media outlet, but this is a real hunk of change in my book.

[yankeedem]

131. CNS is very right wing, right from the mouth of Scaife

just FYI, not accusing you of anything. They make O'Reilly and Hannity look progressive.

[WoodrowFan]

284. he got only $750,000

He got $750,000, the rest went to lawyers. It's almost all gone on medical bills, besides, as her husband he ALREADY controls the money.

Sorry, the "he wants the money" thing is just another RW distortion.

[rox63]

4. No, I think they are just desperate

Personally, I think they should finally let her go. But it looks like they can't bring themselves to do that. It must be very painful for all the parties involved in this case.

[Donailin]

108. I think you're right.

As I watched my 12 YO daughter get on the bus today, I was overcome with emotion at how much I loved her, and how much tender affection I feel for her. My kids are my life, and the thought of any one of them going before I do is . . . unthinkable. I can totally sympathize with the parents, they don't want to face the heartbreak. I wouldn't either. Having said that, if it were me on the life support for 15 years and my kids wanting to keep me alive, I wouldn't have that for a minute. I would want my husband, my kids, my mother -- whoever -- to let me have a dinified life, and a dignified death. If there's no discernable consciousness, then there is no life anyway.

[Kber]

140. When my step-cousin was diagnosed with AIDS in the early '90's

he made a very clear living will. One of the smarter things he did was to make sure his father did not have to make the final decision to pull the plug. He was also clear that if the person he asked to make the decision, in this case my aunt (his step-mom) didn't act within a fairly short amount of time after he bacame brain dead, she lost her power to make a desision and it passed to his partner.

At first my uncle was a bit hurt that his son didn't trust him to carry out his final wishes, but in the end, he was greatful. Even knowing with painful clarity what his son wanted, in all honesty, it would have been extremely difficult. I don't want to give you the impression that it was easy for my aunt - far from, but it's different when it's your kid. As a mother, I can appreciate that.

[Donailin]

179. I appreciate it too

Personally, I have reached the age that my understanding of mortality is painfully clear. We are all going to die and leave the people we love. Sometimes you know this, but don't really think it applies to you, and then comes the time that you know it and it saddens you tremendously .

[pauliedee]

112. The parents havee every right to keep her alive!!!!

They love her....the husband is a repug creep.

[AZCat]

115. Actually, they don't.

See all the previous court cases.

And it's interesting that you call Michael Schiavo a "repug creep" when it is the parents that have enlisted the aid of Randall Terry.

[China_cat]

10. Randall Terry and Operation Rescue

have been bankrolling the parents.

http://operationrescue.org/schiavo/
http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/press/press/031021or-osa-giving-a-voice-to-terri-schiavo.htm
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/161/story_16117_1.html

[LynneSin]

2. If I was Terry's husband I'd ask the courts to emancipate Terry

from her parents.

These parents are in a desperate need of reality. Anyhow, if they're such fundies - would death be the better option since Terri would end up in heaven?

[Modem Butterfly]

5. She's already emancipated though

She's an adult and married.

What kills me is that their line of argumentation is that allowing Terri to die would be contrary to her Catholic beliefs. But isn't divorce a mortal sin?

WTF is wrong with these people?

[KittyWampus]

23. Terri WAS An Adult & Married. The Brain In The Body Being Fed Thru

tubes doesn't contain the part which would seat Terri's personality or soul.

All that's physically left of the brain is the base. The part which can keep the physical system operating to a certain extent.

[ArkDem]

45. Divorce is not a mortal sin. It's not a sin at all if it is for a good

reason in the Church's eyes.

[FreedomAngel82]

53. Exactly

It has to be something like adultry or abuse.

[Dorian Gray]

62. Yep...

And since Schiavo lives with another woman right now, they can argue adultery as a cause for divorce.

Personally, I'm on the fence on this one. I'm actually appalled that they would allow her to starve to death. (Why couldn't they at least give her a lethal dose of morphine? That would seem kinder in my eyes.)

I understand where both the parents and the husband, however, are coming from. It's difficult to let go, and it's difficult to take care of someone in that condition.

[DearAbby]

101. So When is Terri going to file for a Divorce?

Parents are not married to Michael, So when is Terri going to file?

[mondo joe]

234. Because a lethal dose of morphine is illegal.

Would it be more humane? Yes.

Is it legal? No.

But the food line is life support, same as a respirator. If you shouldn't be allowed to remove one you shouldn't be allowed to remove the other.

[LostinVA]

66. The Catholic Church Allows

Being taken off of life support, INCLUDING STOMACH TUBES. So, that's one argument they can't legitimately use. The Church's teachings are very clear on less, no matter what individual Catholics and priests might say.

[Modem Butterfly]

70. Wow. I did not know that

One of the arguments for keeping this poor woman around as a vegetable is that it would violate her right to freedom of religion.

[LostinVA]

74. Maybe other denominations and religions

But the Catholic Church allows people to be taken off of legal and medically recognized life support. Down thread I mentioned I had talked to a priest about this case, and googled some information.

[LisaL]

221. Well, didn't the pop recently say it should not be allowed?

[LostinVA]

224. It was an opinion he gave

It is not official doctrine. Also, to keep this from becoming an issue (or so he thought), Michael Schiavo got his diocese's Bishop's "permission" to remove the tube.

Also, just because the Pope says something doesn't mean every Catholic in the US will follow the directive. Birth control, etc. American Catholics are an ornery bunch!

[LiberalVoice]

11. Now how many RW assholes do you know that follow...

a continuos logic?

I dont know a damn one.

[ArkDem]

83. Like how can you be for the death penalty and against

abortion.

[ktowntennesseedem]

19. Often wonder the same thing myself.

People of faith (and I consider myself in that category) will often pray for the healing and restoration of friends and loved ones. But for the terminally ill with no hope of recovery in this life, isn't death in fact the ultimate healing? If they truly believe that we will live in heaven for eternity with a perfect body in perfect surroundings, then keeping her alive all these years because of false hopes is actually preventing her from the very thing they are praying for!

I know its hard on them to see their daughter like that, but life itself is not the only issue; the quality of that life has to be considered. And if they are truly people of faith, and they truly believe that the quality of life in heaven is perfect, then examining the quality of life becomes even more central to the debate.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClintonTyree]

14. Yes, so well said................

I smell the likes of a troll. I think you're looking for a different site, you seem to have wandered here by mistake.

If it was murder people wanted, george bush would be the first in line. He LOVES condemning people to death.

Go away, far away.

[trumad]

17. Let's see..

Your for SS Privitation, you agree with Charles Kratheimer, and now this.

[Beer Snob-50]

7. While they have been firmly embraced by the rw of the repub party

we have to feel some kind of sorrow for these people. Mercifully, I have not had to deal with a loved one in this state, but I know that many deny that their loved one would be better off dead than in their current state. They cling to the irrational hope that they will improve. I hope that if I am ever in this state, people will have mercy on me and pull the f**king plug!

[Modem Butterfly]

13. Put it in writing now

Look how far they've gone to keep Terri in this state of living death. They even got state legislation! This poor woman is nothing but a football now.

Make sure your wishes are clear and in writing now. Hopefully you'll never need it, but it will spare everyone a lot of pain if you ever do.

[Beer Snob-50]

20. my wishes are very clear in this matter

I have it in writing.

I find it funny that the republican party is the party of "Only God can end a life" yet supports this case where they are usurping Gods will by artificially keeping this women alive.

[FreedomAngel82]

55. Very true

Maher talked about this last week and he was right. He said it was playing God and it is. :(

[Dorian Gray]

63. The only artificial life sustaining in this case

(unless I'm mistaken) is feeding tubes. She breathes on her own. It's all about the food. And it's the withholding of the food that I have the biggest problem with in allowing for her death. Like I said in another post, I would rather see them give her a lethal dose of morphine so she could go quickly and peacefully. (And painlessly.)

[Modem Butterfly]

65. Not a possibility in Florida

The only state where she could have physician-assisted suicide would be Oregon, but even then, she wouldn't be able to take advantage of it since she's already gone. It's not fair, but at least she won't feel any pain.

[ultraist]

147. It may not be a "living state of death" medical diagnosis are NOT 100%

Neurology is a relatively new area of study. There is a LOT they don't know yet.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0D17FF345F0C7B8CDDAB0894DD404482

New Signs of Awareness Seen In Some Brain-Injured Patients

By BENEDICT CAREY (NYT) 1043 words
Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 1 , Column 3

ABSTRACT - New brain-imaging study suggests that thousands of brain-damaged people thought to be completely unaware may hear and register what is going on around them but be unable to respond; findings, if repeated in follow-up experiments, could have sweeping implications for how to care best for these patients; study could also have consequences for legal cases in which parties dispute mental state of unresponsive patient; study appears in journal Neurology; research shows that magnetic resonance imaging can be powerful tool to help doctors and family members determine whether person has lost all awareness or is still somewhat mentally engaged; experts warn that new research is more suggestive than conclusive, and that it does not mean that unresponsive people with brain damage are more likely to recover or that treatment is yet possible; estimated 100,000 to 300,000 people are in what is called minimally conscious state: bedridden and not able to communicate or feed or care for themselves; they typically breathe on their own (M)

***
This is not as much about marriage as it is advocating for the disabled. There are cases where husbands are neglectful or abusive to their disabled spouses and it is warranted to give legal custody to another family member. Keep in mind, that there is an Adult Protective Services just as their is a Child Protective Services that investigates abuse and removes individuals from abusive/neglectful custodians.

I'm not stating that this is what is happening in this case, I don't have enough facts. I do think there is something fishy about that husband. I also understand that the fundie activity is suspicious.

[mondo joe]

257. By your rationale no treatment could ever be conducted...

... because no diagnosis is ever 100%.

Chemotherapy? Forget it - no diagnosis is 100% sure.

Antibiotics? No way - what if the diagnosis is wrong.

For goodness sakes, don't even consider amputation - a cure might be around the corner!!

The fact is all patients and families can go on is the best medical science known at the time.

And your article fails to address people who no longer have a cerebral cortex.

[ClintonTyree]

8. They're more interested in self promotion now................

than any aspect of their daughter's life, or death. They love the attention this brings them and don't want it to end. They won't be famous, or infamous, if she's allowed to die. I imagine there will be all sorts of book deals, mini-series, movies etc. to feed their egos for a while. But then...........what? Back to being just regular people with no cause to keep them on the front pages and hobnobbing with politicians, activists etc. We wouldn't want that, would we? :eyes:

[asthmaticeog]

12. I doubt they're thinking that far ahead.

This isn't about marriage qua marriage, it's about finding any means possible of consolidating their control over the situation. They won't likely get away with it, anyway; can a third party initiate the dissolution a contract they're not even in?

[CoffeeCat]

15. My guess is that they feel guilty...

...maybe because of the eating-disorder element to this.

Shiavo had an eating disorder didn't she...bulimia?

I'm wondering how the eating disorder progressed to such a severe level--without anyone getting help for her?

I haven't followed this like many of you have--so maybe I'm off the mark here. Maybe they did try to help her.

However, if her bulimia caused cardiac failure, it's almost certain that she had this eating disorder for many years--maybe even decades.

Someone close to me has bulimia. Her disorder is so acute that she lost all of her teeth a couple of years ago. They were all pulled, due to corrosion from years of doing this to herself. She's only 30. She has just begun complaining about her heart skipping beats. It's very, very tragic. She's been bulimic since she was 15.

I feel for everyone in the Shiavo case. Obviously, her parents are not making rational decisions at this point. Possibly they feel guilty for not doing more to save her, when she was alive--so they're attempting to do something now.

[KittyWampus]

24. I Read A Study Which Noted That It's The Estranged/Distant Relatives

who usually insist on a body being kept alive even when there's brain death.

The ones closest to the brain dead person want the body to be let go of.

It's a matter of unresolved issues & guilt.

[kalibex]

38. Sounds about right to me.

I was just thinking, reading this discussion, that that's about the only logical reason for how long this drawn-out, protracted court-mediated battle has gone on.

There's no way that her parents et al can escape that eventual feeling of loss, and all the other negative feelings that will bundle with it.

But they'll hang on, to the Bitter end. And feel it all, anyway.


In the end, they're only punishing themselves more by drawing this out.


-B

[neebob]

16. How are they attacking marriage?

They want to keep Terri alive and take care of her; her husband wants to let her die. Why can't he just hand her care over to people who want to do it? I don't get why people side with him at all. And you'll have to explain how the parents are attacking marriage.

[Modem Butterfly]

18. They're trying to get third-party dissolution of marriage allowed

Terri's parents don't want her to be married anymore, but Terri is incapable of filing for divorce. Her husband doesn't want to file for divorce because he knows Terri's parents won't honor her wishes to not be kept alive as a vegetable. So Terri's parents want to file for divorce on their daughter's behalf. Think about what a dangerous precedent this would set, if third-parties could decide when someone else's marriage should be ended!

[Walt Starr]

22. Sets a nasty precedent. Opens up divorce court to all sorts of mischief

Her parents are MONSTERS of thw worst order.

[Renew Deal]

39. Monsters of the worst order?

So they are worse than BTK? I don't think BTK is the worst, but are they worse than him?

[AZCat]

59. of course they are not monsters

They are just people who, when on the wrong side of a legal argument, made a faustian bargain with those who could rightly be called "monsters" (Randall Terry, I'm looking at you).

I don't think they have ulterior motives in this case, I just think they are wrong.

[bettyellen]

114. it's their way or the hiway- they never cared what terry would want.

they have admitted they don't care what terry would have wanted. they have spread lies about their son-in-law, again, just to have their way.
yes they are selfish monsters.

[neebob]

25. I don't believe he's just trying to honor her wishes

or understand why anyone thinks that about him. Everybody's all over the parents instead, trying to get inside THEIR heads and assign all kinds of guilt and fame motives. I think they just honestly believe Terri's still in there and are doing whatever they have to do to get control, and people with another agenda have jumped in to help them.

So it'll set a precedent. Why can't the husband just hand over responsibility to the parents? A decent person would have done that a long time ago, in my opinion. I have a hard time blaming the parents.

[Walt Starr]

26. Her parents are MONSTERS!

If Michael Shiavo were not a hero, he would have walked away from this ages ago!

[neebob]

28. I saw where you said that before

and I think it's pretty ridiculous to say one party's a monster and the other a hero. Why can't he just walk away and get on with his life? Why's he still fighting? Why do you assume his motives are so noble and pure?

[Walt Starr]

33. He's actually losing money by still fighting this

there is only one explanation. He loved his wife very much and is fighting to see that her wishes are carried out. He's a true American hero!

[Renew Deal]

36. Here's another explination

He wants to marry another woman, but can't while he's "married."

[Walt Starr]

56. If that were the case

He would have divorced her years ago.

[LostinVA]

69. Of course he can get a divorce... easily

If he wanted to abandon Terri, any judge in the land would grant him a divorce.

[neebob]

61. Oh, please

What if he put her in the vegetative state and doesn't want her coming out of it? That's the only adequate explanation for his actions that I can see. Call me cynical.

[Walt Starr]

71. That's a bullshit argument that was already addressed by the courts

and thrown out because it's bullshit.

[GiovanniC]

84. She's Not Coming Out of It

There's nothing left. Her brain is mush.

[neebob]

93. You and I may believe that

but her parents believe otherwise and want to take care of her. They contend she's been denied treatment. The only logical reason for Michael Schiavo to still be in this that I can see is he has something to cover up. Or he simply enjoys torturing the inlaws. Either way, he's an asshole.

Why people question the parents' motives and not his is a complete mystery to me.

[GiovanniC]

95. If I Was In His Position

And my wife had told me that she did not want to be kept alive under those circumstances, I would fight her parents to ensure her wishes were upheld. I want to think that I would persevere through as much adversity and time as he has, to give her that one last gift.

[mondo joe]

201. The court record shows that he has behaved admirably

The parents, however, have not.

I've known people with great parents. I've know people whose parents have no respect for their choices.

My parents wouldn't likely do what Terri's parents are doing - but if they did I'd expect my spouse to fight them every step of the way.

[LostinVA]

180. She had cardiac arrest caused by electrolyte inbalance

A medical fact. No way Michael could have caused it, and this was proven in court ad nauseum.

[Renew Deal]

30. Her parents are monsters because they want to keep her alive?

Ooga booga

[Modem Butterfly]

31. She's not alive

Terri Schiavo died fifteen years ago, only her body hasn't caught on yet.

[Renew Deal]

34. If she wasn't alive

we wouldn't be talking about this.

[Modem Butterfly]

37. We shouldn't be, but the anti-choicers have spread so many lies...

...this non-story has become a big issue.

[Renew Deal]

41. What are the lies?

Is saying she's dead one of them? Are you anti-choice?

[Modem Butterfly]

44. Here's a short list

1)Michael caused Terri's condition (No one raised this allegation in the fifteen years since Terri's collapse until very recently)

2)Michael is in it for the money (The money is gone)

3)Terri could recover (Terri's brain has atrophied and been replaced by spinal fluid)

4)Michael has always wanted to "pull the plug" (Michael sought treatment and therapy for seven years until he realized the futility of the situation)

[Renew Deal]

49. One is a lie

2 may not be, though I read that he's willing to donate whatever money.

3 Some scientists believe that. I feel that the courts have been correct on this.

4 is tough one. We don't really know what he's wanted. He does currently want to remarry.

[bettyellen]

107. thay are all anti-choice, but loathe to admit it. the parents disregard

completely what ever terry's wishes might be. they testified to this that they don't care what terry wanted!!
same as everybody on this thread defending them..

[WoodrowFan]

286. no but they sure spread lies

no, but they sure like to spread lies about their son-in-law. Many of those same lies seem to be repeated here a LOT!

http://www.pandagon.net/mtarchives/004689.html

[gnofg]

40. Her parents

are not monsters. They care for their daughter and they feel that her husband doesn't. It is a terrible situation. I can't believe you have no feelings or their distress. I actually side with the parents. If they want to care for her, let them. I can't see why he has a vested interest anymore. He has moved on and in my opinion he lost all rights once he started another relationship and fathered two children.

[Modem Butterfly]

47. His wife died, he didn't

Did you really expect him to join her in this state of living death?

[Renew Deal]

51. She's not technically dead.

Like I said, we wouldn't be talking about this if she was.

[LisaL]

218. Have you ever even met her? I don't think so.

He parents who visit her say she responds to them. Other people who visited her with the parents say she responds to her parents. And yet you, who have never even met her, say she is dead. How can you know?

[Modem Butterfly]

241. The parents and their friends are not objective observers

You need to read the court documents and the objective doctor's documentation. Of course Terri's parents say she's responsive. They look at what's left of her reflexes and see what they want to see.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

68. I agree with you 100%. n/t

[Norquist Nemesis]

76. Just out of curiosity

but how old are her parents? (I honestly don't have any idea) This is one of the things I've been wondering about with her parents continuing this. They say they want to take care of her, and from what little I've heard, she could continue in her present state for years as long as the 'food' is poured into the tube.

What I'm wondering about is in the long term. What happens when her parents are no longer able to care for her either due to health or death? Whose responsibility will Terri become?

I feel for her parents, deeply. Having two children myself, I cannot fathom the agony they must feel. But, from what I've learned, extremists on the religious right have wormed their way into this situation. And unfortunately for all concerned parties, the parents are being used and abused, IMO.

[LisaL]

118. She has a younger brother.

[Tomee450]

103. I agree totally.

The husband has started a new life with another woman. He could always say that he tried to honor his wife's wishes and then wash his hands of the matter. We really don't know if Terry told him she did not wish to be kept alive. We have only his word. I believe there is some other reason why he continues to fight for her to die. I can see no reason why he doesn't let the parents assume responsibility and get on with his life. I feel very sorry for the parents.

[bettyellen]

124. they are imposing their will and do not care about terry's wishes.

i would hope every husband would fight for doing the right thing, i believe that's why he has stayed married. the parents don't care what terry's wishes were, and ( if they are not ignorant of the parents' testimony) neither do the people here defending them.
it's being anti-choice. y'all are not all of a sudden anti-marriage, it's just an excuse to shove your choice down someones else's throat. by any means neccesary. yep, monsters.

[Kingshakabobo]

42. Michael Shiavo is hardly a hero.

I would say he is a human who has moved on with his life. He IS shacked up with someone else after all.

Without having any first hand knowledge of the situation, which no one on this board does,I would tend to give parents the benefit of the doubt. Too bad they are so desperate they are in bed with the fundies.

It's a sad situation no matter which way you slice it.

[ProfessorGAC]

87. Why The Parents and Not Him

Shacking Up, huh? A little anachronistic. His wife has been a vegetable for 15 years, and he looks to get on with his life and he's in the wrong? Interesting take.

Look the logic for him not getting a divorce is eminently logical: He knows what his wife wanted. Her parents will not honor those wishes. He gets divorced, he has ZERO control over what happens to her. His only option is to stay married to assure that Terri's wishes eventually get honored.

You want to give the benefit of the doubt to the parents. Why? What's in it for Michael? I'd give the benefit of the doubt to him. He knows what she told him.

I see no reason to doubt the word of a guy who was loyal to a bullimic wife until she virtually died. There is no indication he was not by her side every day until 7 years after she was not longer savable. Why do you doubt his side of it, and give the benefit of the doubt to the parents?

The facts that we DO know point to nothing other than he has nothing to gain except the ability to fulfill his wife's wishes.
The Professor

[Kingshakabobo]

96. Again, not knowing any more than what I read,

I'll side with a mother's love over the word of a guy that has already "moved on" with his life. Just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions- they're like a--holes.

I don't blame the guy for moving on because I don't know what I would do in a similar situation. It would be really hard to stand by your partner but I have known some people that have done just that. I guess I have a problem with him having another family before she is in the ground.

If anything, this situation has set the wheels in motion for my partner and I to make arrangements (in writing since we are gay). He has instructions to use "the pillow", if necessary, ala "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."

Peace

Eric

[ProfessorGAC]

102. Fair Enough

But, the mother's love thing leaves me cold. The woman in Texas had "mother's love". So did Susan Smith. That did what for their children?

We disagree because your default sensibility is something i don't find absolute. You see a Mother's Love much closer to absolute than i do, obviously, so you've concluded the opposite way. Understandable.
The Professor

[Midlodemocrat]

135. I disagree with your premise.

Although both my folks have passed, I never spoke to them about my wishes in case something like this were to happen. I did, however, tell my husband what my wishes were and after a close call, put them in writing.

I think most parents would hold out all hope that their daughter or son was going to recover, and would be reluctant to extinguish that hope. I also don't think the vast majority of married or committed couples express their death wishes to their parents, it just doesn't resonate well with me.

I don't think parents would want to hear it, or would remember what was discussed in a time of crisis like this. Just speaking for myself, it was very, very difficult for me this summer when my dad was dying not to tell them to use all available measures, but those were my wishes, not his.

[LisaL]

174. Do read his testimony during the malpractice trial. He never

mentioned her wishes to not live "that way" back then. He was saying how much he loves her, how he wants to spend the rest of his life with her.
I mean, come on! How am I supposed to believe that some 8 years later he realized she told him she wouldn't want to live "that way". But when he was trying to get $$$$$ out of her Drs, she was going to live a long life.

[Princess Turandot]

185. Why do you think that is at all relevant?..

You sue a doctor for malpractice because you believe he acted negligently and as a result of his negligence, caused harm to his patient. The facts being tried have nothing to do with the injured parties view on artificial life support. Even if she had immediately died as a result of her cardiac event, her husband could still sue the doctors.

[LisaL]

219. He could sue, but he wouldn't get as much money.

Normally, if the patient is alive and need care, more money is awarded than if patient is dead. In her case, I don't think the malpractice suit was particularly strong one, as she knew if she had bulimia or not. So, it's partially her fault she didn't inform the Drs. about her condition . As for my point, if he feels that strongly about her wish to die (15 years after the fact he refuses to divorce her just so he can carry out her "wishes")-why didn't he mention her wishes during the malpractice trial? Surely, even if there was a chance she would improve or recover, it wasn't a certainty?

[Cronquist]

137. hero is such a strong word.

I cant view a man that has 2 children with another woman without taking care of his wife a hero.

I just don't see it.

As a married man, there are somethings I just won't do. This is one of them.

[LostinVA]

181. He has taken care of his wife, read the court testimony. n/t

[Cronquist]

214. Why?

Assuming that they used the "standard" vows.
(In sickness and in health)

I feel that by entering into a relationship while still taking care of his wife he is not fulfilling his vows.

I cant use the word "hero" to describe such a man.

[Pithlet]

148. A decent person would see that their spouse's wishes

are met. Why should he walk away from that? I hope my husband doesn't do that to me. Why should her husband just walk away from her, instead of fighting for what she wanted? He is her legal next of kin. They are married.

[Modem Butterfly]

243. He's stood strong against their slander and harassment

Ask yourself who's all over the media, getting mixed up with con-artists like Randall Terry and trying to get some kind of media deal with Mel Gibson? It sure isn't her husband. He could have walked away years ago but for his promise to his wife.

[samiam1972]

176. "Dangerous precedent"?

What kind of "dangerous precedent" would we be setting if we let a man (possibly abusive) kill his wife by denying her FOOD AND WATER according to her "wishes" that were never legally recorded but may or may not have been mentioned in a passing conversation with friends? THAT is more dangerous to me! It's absolutely insane!! I don't understand why he won't allow her to have the rehabilitation that she was supposed to receive with the money he won in the lawsuit. How hard would it be to give her one year to learn to eat by herself? I choose to side with life on this one.

[LostinVA]

188. She CAN'T learn to eat -- she has no cerebral cortex

In reading all of these Schivao threads, I really can't understand why this can't be grasped: she has no higher brain function. Her cortex is MELTED. She literally can't chew, swallow, pick up stuff, nothing. She has no sensation of hunger or satiation.

Jesus, Mary, and Jospeh... let her body rest as hopefully her spirit has.

No more Schiavo threads for me. Good luck hashing it out people. And, I REALLY hope neither you nor any family is ever in this situation.

[Dookus]

195. There is absolutely no evidence

he's abusive. Only a claim made by her parents, with absolutely no evidence to back it up.

We already know her parents are liars. There's no reason to believe this claim.

[Modem Butterfly]

242. Allowing uninvolved third parties to terminate marriages...

...is the ultimate dangerous precedent.

What happens if you decide, in your old age, to marry someone nearly thirty years younger and your children, who don't want to lose their inheritance, have you divorced against your will because they consider your marriage unwise?

I don't understand why he won't allow her to have the rehabilitation that she was supposed to receive with the money he won in the lawsuit.

She had years of therapy.

How hard would it be to give her one year to learn to eat by herself?

Very hard. She has no brain left to learn with and her muscles have so atrophied that her hands won't open anymore.

[samiam1972]

288. Have they tried?

And her muscles have atrophied because he stuck her in a home to die instead of a clinic where she could get rehabilitation. She is not brain dead. She breathes on her own. She did not have a written will to die. When she was receiving the therapy she was in better shape. It frustrates me to no end that people would rather see this girl killed than let her continue on her own. Who dictates whether someone can receive food and water? Makes me sick. You know, there are other reasons for this girl's life to be saved. Look at how many lives she has already touched because of this fiasco. I have definitely learned more about myself because of her. I'm glad she's still alive. I see the importance of having a living will as I'm sure countless others have. I will never believe it's okay for us to kill people just because we as a society don't see any benefit from their life.

[WoodrowFan]

285. the money is gone and so is her BRAIN

the money is gone, spent on her medical care, and her brain is GONE! why is that hard to understand? It's like hoping Max Cleland's legs will grow back.

[The Straight Story]

226. Or their life ended.... (n/t)

[Renew Deal]

27. That's my question also.

Why not let the family deal with her if they want that? It would probably be easier for him. I think that I read that it had something to do with him wanting another church wedding, but I don't remember.

[Modem Butterfly]

29. Because he's trying to fulfill her wishes

He could have walked away years ago. He didn't have to include her parents in the decision to allow her to die. And her parents have offered to give him whatever little money she has left if he would divorce her and let them take care of her. But it's not about the money and it's not about the "burden" of her care, it's about honoring his wife's wishes. Michael Schiavo has not only stood strong in the face of screeching right-wing harpies, but he has also not stooped to the level of the Schindlers (Terri's parents).

I hope my partner would do the same for me given a similar situation.

[Renew Deal]

32. Or it's about marrying another woman

and he can't do that while she's "alive"

[Modem Butterfly]

35. He could always get a divorce

But then, Terri would be at the mercy of her mercenary parents.

[Renew Deal]

43. Or his new wedding wouldn't be sanctified by the church

and/or he wouldn't be able to collect any money he has on her.

[Modem Butterfly]

46. There's no money left

And what makes you think he's still a practicing Catholic anyway?

[Renew Deal]

50. I read somewhere that he wanted a legit (in the eyes of God) wedding.

What makes you think he's not a practicing Catholic?

[Modem Butterfly]

52. The parents have been all over the media spouting this bullshit

I'm not surprised you've read that.

Considering the church has threatened to excommunicate Michael Schiavo if he ensures his wife's wishes are carried out, I find it hard to believe he's a very rigorous Catholic.

Can an excommunicated Catholic get married in the Church?

[Renew Deal]

54. Probably not

[LostinVA]

77. Modem, when did the Church say that

About excommunicating him? I'm just curious -- I had a Jesuit priest tell me the Church allows people to be taken off of life support -- including stomach tubes. I totally believe someone said that, I was just wondering who.

[Modem Butterfly]

79. I have the article on my computer at home

It was in the Tampa Tribune earlier this winter, and it wasn't the Church per se, but a couple of priests acting independantly. It could very well have been a gambit from the parents as well. I'll dig it out tonight, post it, and send you the link.

[LostinVA]

189. Great! Thanks!

[kskiska]

57. I've read that he's a Lutheran

It's possible his intended is a Catholic.

[LostinVA]

72. The Church would grant him an annulment

A friend of my father's is a priest, and I asked him this question about this very case. He said the Church would grant Schiavo an annulment, becaus per Church teaching, Terri Schiavo is being sustained through life support. And, before you start arguing stomach tubes aren't life support, they are legally, medically, and religiously (per the Church) considered life support.

[Renew Deal]

75. OK

so why doesn't he go that route. He's out of the marriage and the parents get to do whatever they want.

[Modem Butterfly]

78. Because it's not about that

He wants to make sure Terri's wishes are fulfilled, and he knows her parents won't honor them.

[Renew Deal]

81. People keep talking about her wishes.

Did she have some sort of will?

[GiovanniC]

86. Would You Want to Be Kept Alive in a Permanent State of Vegitation?

I personally wouldn't. Now, I have never gotten around to having a living will made up, which I grant that I should, but my wife knows my wishes. So do my parents.

If by some cruel twist of fate I was lying in some hospital, a vegetable, I would want the life support pulled. Now, what if my wife says, "Pull the plug, it's what he wanted," and my parents say, "Bullshit, keep him alive forever!" What would be the more respectable thing for my wife to do? Say, "No, we will respect Giovanni's wishes"? Or for her to say, "Fine, to hell with what he wants, as long as I don't have to deal with him"?

[Renew Deal]

89. Thanks, but that didn't answer my question.

Anyone else want to try?

[GiovanniC]

92. Is Your Question Whether She Had a Written Will or Whether She's Made Her

wishes clear to her husband?

Obviously, if there was a written legal document this whole scenario wouldn't have stretched out as long as it has, but in all honesty there are plenty of people out there who do not have these legal documents but have made their wishes clear to their spouses. Are you saying that those wishes should be ignored without those legal documents?

In a case like this, the decision is made by next of kin and in that case it's her husband, who has been attempting to ensure that her wishes are upheld. The guy's name gets dragged through the mud, there's no money in it, he has to deal with headaches with the legal system, organized religion, the community, right-wing hate, et cetera. Deciding to abandon Terri's wishes and let her parents keep her as a pet rock would have been the easy way out, but he hasn't done that.

Now, answer MY question. If I am in a car accident later tonight, should my wife be allowed to ensure that my wishes are carried out, or should my parents be able to veto us both?

[Renew Deal]

119. Thanks

God forbid anything like this happens to any of us, of course your wife should be allowed to ensure the wishes are carried out. I think that part of the problem with this case is that it's not clear what her wishes really are. That could be because the family has muddied it up.

[mondo joe]

233. She did not. She was young. But there are witnesses who corroborate

her statement that she would not want her body to be kept alive in this way.

All in the court record.

[Maat]

230. Modem Butterfly, you and I usually agree.

But not here.

The only evidence we had of 'her wishes' is a statement by Michael made under very questionable circumstances, in addition to another oral statement by a relative.

These certainly do not represent adequate evidence of her intentions.

Only written expression of that should satisfy.

I have to say that I also sit on the fence.

I do not understand why, in the face of such doubt, he cannot just divorce her and permit her parents to enjoy what time they can with her, under whatever circumstances.

Most respectfully, I cannot agree with the contention that he is still fighting them out of dedication to his wife. He doesn't appear to have any.

[mondo joe]

231. The Court Found the Witnesses Credible

You may feel it was questionable but the courts have REPEATEDLY upheld the decision of the first court.

It'shard to know how you can read Michael Schiavo's mind to know if he is honorable or not.

You've already assumed the parents are right - despite their repeated lies and scams - and that he should just yield to them.

I can only hope if I were in Terri's place my partner would NEVER stop fighting for me and NEVER yield to them.

[Bunny]

232. What was questionable about Michael's statement?

He, along with his brother and the brother's wife, said that Terri expressed to them that she wouldn't want to live on life support. This occurred after the funeral of a family member who had been on life support. The guardian ad litem for Terri deemed their statements to be credible, and presented such to the court.

One other thing I found out about Terri and Michael: they had apparently undergone fertility treatments for an extended period of time in an attempt to get pregnant. This was documented in her medical records. Her parents told the court that they had absolutely no prior knowledge of the fertility treatments. This was one area where Terri apparently did not confide in her parents. I am not surprised that she didn't convery any advance directives to them either.

[Modem Butterfly]

237. Terri may have told them of her wishes, but they've chosen to ignore them

When I was a kid, my mother's mother developed Alzheimer's. It's a terrible disease. One of my responsibilities growing up was to take care of my grandmother, and by that I mean feed her, help her dress, help her stay clean, and keep her from harming herself. And not just on accident.

You see, my grandmother did not want to die of Alzheimer's. She asked my mother and I, alone and separately, to help her kill herself, beginning about the time I was twelve. My mother hated that she couldn't do anything for her, either to make her well or end her suffering. She made me promise that if she were ever incapacitated, such as after a car accident or with a degenerative disease like Alzheimer's that I would do what she felt she could not do for her mother. I agreed. I was fourteen.

The day came when we could no longer care for my grandmother at home and had to put her in nursing care. She lingered there for about a year and a half, and finally the day came she could no longer swallow. The doctor told my mother and I that we had the choice, to use a feeding tube or to allow nature to take it's course. The doctor asked us what she would have wanted. My mother went blank and said, "I don't know, we never discussed it. Modem, what do you think we should do?" I was sixteen.

I still have not entirely forgiven my mother for putting the decision to end her mother's life in my hands. Years later I asked her what was happening in her mind at that point, and she apologized and told me that she simply couldn't be the one to say that her mother's life should end, that at that moment her need to have a mother outweighed what she felt was her responsibility to save her mother from suffering.

My mother knows my wishes and she has no objection to them. I've got a living will and a durable power of attorney. We've been down this road before. It is absolutely clear in my mind that, should I end up like Terri, or like my grandmother, my mother knows that I would not want to live like that. It's equally clear that at the moment of decision, my mother would fold like a house of cards. I love her, but I don't kid myself that she would follow my wishes. I suspect Terri Schiavo is in that position herself.

[Bunny]

239. That is quite a story. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Is someone other than your mom your power of attorney? I seem to remember that you have a spouse or S.O.

I wish that the people who pray so hard for Terri can also pray that God opens her parents' eyes, so that they can see what is really going on here. And let Terri go on to her reward.

[Modem Butterfly]

240. My SO has durable power of attorney

My living will also designates my father in the abscence of my partner. I don't think my mother would go to nearly the extremes that Terri's parents have (and anyway, my father would put the breaks on that) but I know that if it were up to her, I'd be in that same, sorry state ten, fifteen years down the line. I love her, but she's not one for the hard decisions.

[Modem Butterfly]

235. It's his dedication that convinces me

Terri is gone, and Michael has moved on, but he doesn't want to see her used and abused against her wishes. Her parents and the extreme right have slandered him all over the press and the net, and still he stands strong. I find that persuasive. He could walk away from her but he has chosen not to. I hope if I'm ever in that position my own partner would fight for me the same way.

Most people don't put their wishes in writing. That's a rare thing. But intimate partners do discuss such things, which is why, when medically incapacitated, we look to the spouse as next of kin (we should, of course, consider same-sex partners as well, but we don't currently) and the blood kin secondly.

[LisaL]

121. It's my opinion that he is now doing it just to spite the parents.

[Dorian Gray]

67. True..

self-delete... Untimely argument! :)

[Padraig18]

48. Mr. Schiavo has hardly been a paragon of virtue.

How about let's save some outrage for someone truly worthy of it?

[AZCat]

58. Does he need to be in order to earn our defense?

John Adams defended the British troops involved in the Boston Massacre not because he sympathized with them (quite the opposite), but because it was the right thing to do.

He told the jury, "Facts are stubborn things, and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictums of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

Michael Schiavo may not be the greatest person in the world (I do not know him so I can't say for sure) but he deserves our defense as much as any when he is innocent of the charges levelled against him.

[Padraig18]

60. This isn't that clear-cut.

Sorry, but this is a far murkier proposition than Mr. Adam's case was, and the 'clean hands' of the various parties involved DOES matter.

[AZCat]

64. You miss my point

The accused in John Adam's case were British (and hated by the Bostonians) but Adam's defended them because they deserved it (they were innocent).

The court has consistently sided with Mr. Schiavo throughout the case. His personal life has absolutely nothing to do with his legal obligation to carry out what the court has decided that Mrs. Schiavo's wishes were.

[Cuban_Liberal]

73. Actually, you're both right.

On the one hand, this whole thing is an equitable proceeding, rather than an 'at law' proceeding, so the legal doctrine of 'clean hands' does indeed apply. On the other hand, Mr. Schiavo has prevailed, ultimately, at every stage of the proceedings.

What is MOST important about this case, however, is how perfectly it illustrates the legal maxim that "bad cases make bad law".

[AZCat]

80. Interesting

After reading your post, I spend a little time reading about the differences between equity and law. It is very interesting (at least to a legal layman) and I wonder how this case would have been different had it been in front of a jury.

I was incorrect - his personal life is important in this case. I didn't understand the distinction between the different kinds of cases and it won't kill me to admit that I was wrong. :)

[Cuban_Liberal]

82. Cool.

This is just an awful case, and I actually feel sorry for everyone involved. There are equities on both sides, i.e., it's not a 'black-and-white', clear-cut case, and it's just a crying shame that medical technology outpaces our ability to deal with its consequences on both legal and moral grounds.

[AZCat]

85. It is an awful case.

While there are those involved peripherally in the case that I do not sympathize with (Randall Terry, for example), the family members (and Terri, of course) deserve and get my deepest sympathy.

I wonder how long it will be until we are capable of dealing with the many consequences of technology in a just and moral manner, especially when it continues to advance as rapidly as it does. I read a good book a couple of years ago titled "Machine in the Garden," by Leo Marx. He talks about how the progressive movement wedded itself to technology as a socially liberating force back in the nineteenth century and how, while there were definite benefits from this, there are also consequences such as the ones we see in this case.

[Bunny]

88. C_L, can you give us a nutshell description of

equitable proceeding, at law proceeding, and the doctrine of 'clean hands'? I am not familiar with these, and I'm curious as to how Michael's behavior is important. Thanks.

[Cuban_Liberal]

90. I'd be pleased to.

An 'equitable' proceeding is one in which justice is done in accordance with a perceived societal norm for 'justice', whereas a 'legal' proceeding is one in which the mechanical application of legal rules governs. The 'clean hands' doctrine basically says that he who comes to the court seeking justice must first show that he himself has acted justly, i.e., that his legal 'hands' (position) are clean.

:)

[Bunny]

91. Thanks muchly!

But to clarify, how can it be shown that Michael has not acted justly? At least in regards to Terri, because he did wait for seven years before deciding that there was no hope for her.

He is involved with another woman, and has children by her, but given that Terry was stricken 15 years ago, can that really be seen as a negative on his part? (I mean, it's not like this happened last month.) Wouldn't that be a part of the societal norm - that most people would not want or expect their spouse to live alone for this many years?

I think I understand the mechanical application of law,because that is what has happened so far, right?

Boy this law stuff gets confusing, doens't it? ;)

[Cuban_Liberal]

94. I don't have the references at hand, but...

... IRC, there have been allegations that (I *think*) he abused Mrs. Schiavo during their marriage and that he has/may have mis-used some of the settlement monies awarded her as a result of her malpractice action, among other things. Further, it just sorta LOOKS bad that he's living with another woman, has children with her, but insists on not divorcing Mrs. Schiavo and letting her then next-of-kin make her medica decisions. I'm from the rural Midwest, and I know how a jury here would look at that act al by itself, and it wouldn't be favorable to Mr. Schiavo.

So far, the case has largely been decided on the basis of statutory law, while the parent's attacks on his decision have largely been of an equitable nature. It's made for a very messy case.

[Bunny]

97. Okay, now I have a better understanding of the difference.

Thank you C_L!

[Cuban_Liberal]

98. You're most welcome.

:hi:

[Bariztr]

162. All those allegations have been rebutted

The report done by an independent guardian, Wolford, who wrote a 40 page report to Jeb Bush in 2003 about the situation. The link to the report is here: (In PDF format)


http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/WolfsonReport.pdf


Just scan through it and you will see that all those "allegations" are either completely disproven or not even addressed bc they are baseless.

[Bunny]

173. That is an outstanding link. I URGE everyone who has not read

it to take a half-hour right now and read it. It very nicely answers most of the "bad guy" rumors re: Michael. And it was done by an independent guardian, appointed FOR Terri.

[Dookus]

187. those allegations are nonsense

the so-called misuse of money was APPROVED by the court. The so-called misuse was CAUSED by her parents going from court to court to court. He used the money to fight them. THEY instigaged the lawsuits, not Michael.

The court APPROVED the use of the money to hire lawyers. How on earth could it be considered misuse or malfeasance?


Blame her parents for the fact the money was spent on lawyers, not Michael.

[Riding this Donkey]

249. Go over to terrisfight.org and read her parents point of view.

You just want to ignore that to further your own argument against fundies who are pro life and anti right to die.

I am Pro choice and I believe in the right to die, but something is very very wrong here and just because I believe in those things, does not necessarily mean that I think you should starve and dehydrate her with her parent sitting there and watching this.

How do you know this isn't painful???????

have you read the effects of dehydration and starvation and what happens to the human body?

I don't give a damn what the doctors say about a cerebral cortex or what ever it is, it is not dignified to die this way.

[mondo joe]

253. We already know the parents are liars

They lied in and to the court. They created a scam video triggering Terri's automatic nervous responses.

They have admitted they would not end life support even if they KNEW she had requested it.

You say you don't care about the medical evidence, and you clearly don't care about the law. It's hard to know how to have a dialogue about it when it's all about how you feel and not about the facts.

[Riding this Donkey]

258. Just because something can be done, does not make it right.

facts can be arranged to support any side of an issue.

I believe it is you who cannot separate you feelings about your rights, and the feelings of others who may for good reason disagree with you.

Oh and please stop call intimating that I am some Randall, whatever his name is spokesperson. It should be beneath you.

Because I have a different opinion than you regarding this, you smear me like that..

I don't get it.

edit sp

[mondo joe]

262. No, but the factscan be IGNORED to support any side

The FACTS are that Michael Schiavo has provided extraordinary care for Terri. Every record reflects it, every freaking time it's gone to coutr reflects it, and the independent guardian's assessment reflects it.

There are a lot of accusations against Michael Schiavo but that's ALL they are. There is no supporting evidence.

Yuo've already stated you don't care what the science is - and that's sotr of a mystery. You don't seem to care about the legal aspects - another mystery.

Why smear Michael Schiavo when the entire set of facts disputes the allegations?

[Bunny]

264. Because if you are going to dismiss science and facts, all

that's left are smears. At least that's the way I see it.

[Riding this Donkey]

265. excuse me, i have not smeared anyone, not one person, altho

if you go through this thread you will see that it has been done many times to me.

I'm tough skinned I can handle it. Ican have discussions and disagree, but it appears that others cannot.

That is all I will say about that.

[Bunny]

266. You most certainly have smeared Michael Schiavo.

Again and again. And I'll join you in not discussing this any further. It is clearly useless.

[Riding this Donkey]

268. conversation and discussion is smearing, you have it all wrong

I have not smeared him. Everything I have said is well documented, if you look at the other side. You want to call her parents liare.

I can understand everything you are saying, but i don't agree with it.

I am a pro choice, right to die person but I will not let it cloud my judgement on this issue. I can separate the issues. You cannot.

[Bunny]

272. Oh please.

I've read the reports filed in the court by the INDEPENDENTLY APPOINTED guardian for Terri. I purposely capitalized that because you still refuse to acknowledge it. In fact, I don't think you've even read it. If you did, you could not possibly make the statements you have made.

Get back to me after you read it. Then we can debate this, point by point. If all you are going to argue with is your emotions, we have no where else to go.

[Riding this Donkey]

274. Have you read anything over at terrisfight.org I assume you have

not, because I don't see any compassion from you for her parents and that is alarming.

[Bunny]

275. That site is incredibly biased. I have read it.

You have yet to answer me regarding reading Terri's guardian's report. Have YOU read that? The only compassion I have for her parents is the prayer that they will be shown the light regarding her condition and allow her go on to her just reward.

[mondo joe]

278. Oh good - a web page by documented liars,

"Documented" doesn't mean "someone said it".

[mondo joe]

277. Well documented? PLEASE!

Her parents are in FACT liars. They are on RECORD lying. It's not opinion - it's fact.

Her parents are ON RECORD saying they'd disregard her wishes if they were known.

There is NO documentation to support any of the ugly smears against Michael Schiavo. If there were you could point to the documentation.

[mondo joe]

271. You've smeared Michael Schiavo with no basis in fact

You've smeared him based on your feelings only.

There are NO facts supporting your allegations that he doesn't care about what Terri would feel, or that he is somehow responsible for her condition. Only your feelings.

[TheIntruder240]

99. I think her parents are doing a good job at

Exploiting her!!!! The tube's coming out on March 18th, get over it mom and dad!!!

[Riding this Donkey]

100. I just happen to think that her parents are right on this.

I do believe people have a right to die, as well.

But her wishes were not in writing, it is on the hearsay of her husband (a man who has gone on with his life with another woman and had a child with her). Also, this man won a multi million dollar settlement on the grounds that it would cost that much to get Terri better with rehab (she has not gotten this rehab).

I say this as a parent and this trumps my liberalism. I would not want my daughter starved to death.

That is all that is keeping her alive, a feeding tube to give her nourishment. It may not be a life that you or I would want, but I think it would be terrible to watch your son or daughter die of starvation and dehydration (it takes weeks). What is the harm in hoping she gets well and feeding her.

A word to the wise, if you don't want artificial means to keep you alive, make a living will...that way no one has a say over what you might or might not want.

[bettyellen]

104. so you want parents to obtain divorces for kids?

courts to overide the natural process of next of kin, but this would be only in cases when you approve of the outcome, huh? let's just apply the law at your discretion, huh?
we are talking about new and dangerous legal precedents, changing the meaning of what a marraige is supposed to be.
the parents said themselves do not care what terry wanted. they would be sliming michael no matter what. i have never seen such a bunch of self righteous bunch as this parents supporters.
that's just wrong.

[barb162]

111. remember the Claus Von Bulow case? That husband was the

guardian (as I recall ) of Sunny and a lot of people thought he basically tried to kill her so he could live off her substantial money. Something about this case of Teri Schiavo and her husband, SOMETHING, gives me enough pause to not necessarily trust this husband. What did he do with that money from the settlement?

[bettyellen]

116. really, read up then. don't go by "your nose" or a "feeling" instead of

years of court cases.
you know the parents testified that they don't care what terry's wishes were, and if she got gangrene or needed an artificial heart, they would force the hospital to amputate, give her a pacemaker, etc.. there is no limit to what they'd put her body through.
it's sick, they don't care what she wanted, but they can't let go.

[barb162]

125. her parents think she is cognitive, that she responds to them

and I believe this has nothing to do with right or left wing attitudes. None of us really know what this woman told her husband; it was not in writing. And, unfortunately, no matter how much I or you or anyone else reads about the case, none of us will know what Teri's wishes really were about being kept alive. Um, and if I want to use my instincts, I will do so.

[GiovanniC]

127. If You Do Not Specify What Your Wishes Are

Then the decision defaults to your legal guardian or next of kin. Which is the husband in this case.

[bettyellen]

128. use your instinct instead of reading up, fine. just don't expect

to know what your talking about. LOL. the film is a sham. they flash lights in her eyes to get her to react and then edit it out.
you fell for a carny show. smoke and mirrors.

[barb162]

129. This is in your humble OPINION, of course. Were you there

when the film was done? Do you have proof of this? Do you KNOW what you are talking about?

[bettyellen]

130. they accidentally leave a little in the first few seconds of the video....

and it's one of the only sure fire way to trigger a reflex action, so yeah i do know that they faked it to look like she's reacting to a person, and not a flash light.
and i do know their testimony to be that they don't care what terry would have wanted.
that's enough to make them unsuitable to make choices for her. the courts have agreed for ten years now, but the bullshit propaganda rages on to this day.

[barb162]

132. are you saying her parents are lying when they say she is

responsive (and I mean "responsive" as above and beyond that of a vegetative state)

[bettyellen]

133. they are lying about the response on that video, yes. whether or not

they believe she has any real response, i don't know. i guess they want to believe she does (or could someday) enough to deceive other people. that doesn't make them right. it makes them willing to do anything to have their own way.

[AZCat]

134. Why don't we look at what the court said?

In November of 2002, the Sixth Judicial Court of Pinellas County denied a motion of relief from judgement where the videos of Terry were viewed and discussed.

From that document:
"Viewing all of the evidence as a whole, and acknowledging that medicine is not a precise science, the court finds that the credible evidence overwhelmingly supports the view that Terry Schiavo remains in a persistent vegetative state. Even Dr. Maxfield acknowledges that vegetative patients can track on occasion and that smiling can be a reflex."
</snip>

It goes on to discuss the various treatment options available and if they would be able to improve her quality of life. It's an interesting read.

[LostinVA]

183. It's in the video, Barb

They "jump start" her motor reflexes just like you jump start a car. Her dad evens says it, them when she starts making noises, he carries on a "conversation." The HUGE flashing, brilliant lights act as a stimulant.

And, just for the record, that video was taken illegally.

[barb162]

228. I remember seeing a video months back with her parents in the

room and I don't remember at the time making any judgment about it other than feeling sorry for that whole family and that poor woman

[LisaL]

120. He spend a decent part of it on lawyers who tried to get her feeding

tube removed.

[Modem Butterfly]

154. To be precise, he had to defend Terri from her parents law suits

Her parents were the ones who sued. He had to respond.

[LisaL]

175. The money was awarded for her care. The court has allowed him

to spend it on lawyers, but he had not mentioned her desire to not live "that way" during the malpractice trial. He was going to spend the rest of his life caring for his wife Terri when he tried to get money in a malpractice case. Why didn't he try to honor her wishes back then?

[Modem Butterfly]

177. He didn't realize the extent of her condition...

...nor the fact that she wouldn't respond to therapy.

[LisaL]

182. Yea, sure. He believed she would recover from PVS...

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:
He and his lawyer said Terri was going to live 50 years, I believe. Her recovery from her condition was not an issue on whether to allow her to live or not. He was going to spend the rest of his life taking care of her. Why wasn't he worried about honoring her wishes back then? Before he got the money?

[Modem Butterfly]

186. Some people respond to therapy. Terri did not.

Her husband was awarded 1.6 million based on malpractice, not on continuing futile treatments. I'm sure you're aware thar a patient's condition can either improve or deteriorate over time, right?

[LisaL]

196. Well, that's news to me. People in PVS respond to therapy?

Post after post on how nobody recovers from PVS... yet apparently people in PVS can recover? Which one is it?
Furthermore, there was nothing in his testimony during the malpractice trial that she must recover, otherwise, she would die. Terri was the love of his life and he was going to take care of her for the rest of his life, even though he was a young man...Nothing about how she wouldn't want to live that way. Nothing about removing her feeding tubes. Then, what, some 8 years later, he says Terri wouldn't want to live that way? And I am supposed to believe that?

[Modem Butterfly]

208. She declined into PVS

The damage from her heart attack was too great. She declined into a PVS and her brain deteriorated into spinal fluid. Her husband realized the situation was futile eight years later. If her husband wanted her gone, why not begin that process immediately? Because he still had hope for recovery. But as anyone could tell you, hope is not certainty.

[LisaL]

217. Why not begin the process immediately? Well, in my opinion,

because he wanted to get the money from the malpractice suit. The longer the person lives, the money money is usually awarded for that person's care. Saying he will take care of her for the rest of his life-well, I think that had an effect on that jury. Such a young, devoted husband who will dedicate the rest of his life to caring for his disabled wife is hard to find, no? Apparently, some 8 years later, he says she wouldn't want to live that way? So, how concerned could he have been about her wishes, really?
:eyes:

[Modem Butterfly]

222. The money is gone

Do you have any idea how expensive it is to keep someone in round-the-clock care? She didn't get a huge award because she essentially put herself in that position through her bulemia. Nevertheless, her husband took care of her until all hope was exhausted. He did care for her until the end of her life- Terri is gone, only her body hasn't figured it out yet.

[Riding this Donkey]

250. You are wrong, Terri as she was known is gone, Terri as she is now

is still here.

Please research the effects of dehydration and starvation on the human body.

I think you believe in dying with dignity. Dying this way is not dying with dignity.

And her parents will have to watch and know she died this way.

She is not on a respirator. Her brain still tells her to breathe and tells her heart to pump.

If the feeding tube was never put in, this would be different.

And you are wrong about Michael recieving 1M, he recieved 1.5 million.

I'm sure all of that money was not spent on Terri's rehabilitation.

I have concerns that he may not want her to wake up because if she did, she may tell people that it was him who put her in that position. I have real doubts here.

Again, I believe in the right to die, but it has to be put in a living will. Maybe someday you or I might find ourselves in a position where we can't speak for ourselves and people will be in a hurry to push us out the door because "they" don't feel we have a quality of life or for their own ulterior motives.

Terri did not and I repeat did not have a living will. Her husband and his sister have said that that she made her will known to them while watching a tv show, saying "I would not want to live like that".Did she tell them to that she wants to die by starvation and dehydration? I don't think so.

[Modem Butterfly]

254. No, Terri's gone

Here's her brain scan. That black stuff is what used to be Terri. Now it's just spinal fluid. She's not going to wake up and say anything. She won't play piano. She won't write the Great American Novel. She's gone.



There's nothing there to register pain or discomfort from dehydration or starvation. But I will agree with you that there should be better options than that.

[mondo joe]

256. Your doubts are a denial of the facts of the case

Everyugly Randall Terryesque accusation against Michael Schiavo is refuted by the facts of the case.

Michael took extraordinary care of Terri. Look at the court records - there is no denying the efforts at rehabilitation and care provided for his wife.

Accusations that he caused this are unfounded, have been investigated and refuted. You are just making things up by saying otherwise.

Even the guardian appointed by the court and then appointed to submit a report by Jeb Bush confirms all of this.

[barb162]

229. "brain deteriorated into spinal fluid" I have seen this

or the phrase "no cerebellum" by other posters but I don't know where this is coming from. Is there something by the MDs in the court documents which indicate there is a complete breakdown or whatever of this brain organ. To me persistent or permanent V.S. means the brain is "there"and intact but isn't working.

[LostinVA]

236. LOts and lots of Medical facts about this

Here cerebral cortex has literally melted, and only spinal fluid is there. It's GONE. This controls higher brain functions, which is YOU. This isn't "coming from nowhere," Barb. There are medical facts to back this up.

[barb162]

238. I just looked at a CT scan of her brain, which of course meant I don't

know what in hell I am looking at as I have no medical training. But it was from U. of Miami and said something like: shows extensive cortical areas filled with spinal fluid.
This disgusts me too much right now to deal with it (sort of like Iraq beheadings, you know?).

[Modem Butterfly]

245. I don't like to think of it, frankly

How horrifying.

[LisaL]

123. Yet, he got a girlfriend and two children. Any woman

would be able to get a divorce from her husband if the husband was living with another woman and was raising a family with that woman.

[bettyellen]

126. you want to ignore that fact that the parents have kept this going for ten

years? just because they are married to living the life of a martyr, doesn't mean terry or her husband should. you keep ignoring the fact that the parents testimony says they don't care what terry would have wanted! all you parental defenders clam up when you see that, don't you?
how are they more fit than the man she lived with and loved for years?

[barb162]

138. "parental defenders clam up when you see that" That's wrong.

It's a SIDE issue. What the real issue is to me at least: Teri's wishes were not in writing and no one really knows what she would have wanted about being kept alive through a feeding tube. Why should anyone "trust" one side or the other.

[Modem Butterfly]

158. Because when one is incapacitated, it's your next of kin...

...who makes the decisions. That has always been the spouse first, other blood kin second if there is no spouse and there is no durable power of attorney. Terri's parents seek to change all that and they endanger the wishes of everyone who wishes to designate a decision maker other than their parents.

[barb162]

227. I generally agree with your first, second sentences. After that

I think things fall apart because the parents are disagreeing with the husband when there really was no written, clear statement about Teri's wishes. I will refer back to the Claus Von Bulow case where Sunny's kids were disagreeing with the husband. He was the offical next to kin, the husband. There would you have gone along with the husband (even though there were charges (perhaps false???) that he was responsible for her condition). He got off the charges, but her kids got to be the guardians of their mother I believe. I think that in every case you can't automatically "go" with the next of kin.

[Modem Butterfly]

246. There's a huge difference though

While there have been rumours about Michael's alleged involvement in Terri's heart attack, no charges have been made, let alone proven, in the fifteen years this case has been going on.

[Riding this Donkey]

259. Well, they just caught the BTK killer after 30 years. n/t

[Riding this Donkey]

141. Possibly because someone is trying to starve their daughter to death??

Have some compassion will ya!

[barb162]

105. you said this well; I'm with you. No one knows what Teri wanted

and should we automatically trust her husband? Should we automatically trust her parents? What did her husband do with that money? Did he use it for her benefit? I think this case points out the reason for having a living will. I don't know who really has this poor woman's interests in their hearts....

[bettyellen]

142. we do know that the parents do not care what she wanted, and are unfit

to make this decision for her on that basis.
that was their testimony.

[Riding this Donkey]

144. That is where you argument holds no water with me...

there was nothing in writing, I totally disagree with the assumption that this is what terri wants.

Just because her husband says it makes it so.

[bettyellen]

150. and the parents not caring what terri wants doesn't bother you one bit.

so, you think they should be in charge only because you agree with them. so this decision cannot be made by who it is legally supposed to, only because you disagree with him. you are not holding the parents to the same standard at all, are you? even though they admit it's all about what they want, not terry.
so self- righteous.
sorry, that is not enough to set an important legal precedent to set aside, to defile a marriage at the parents request. that's just wrong.

[Riding this Donkey]

152. If you can prove to me absolutely by showing me something in

writing, written by Teri that this is what she wanted, I have no problem.

Can you do that?

I don't care what the husband says or what the court says. I personally believe they are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Decisions cannot be made like this unless it is in writing.

I will concede, that if her parents felt there was no hope, and wanted the tube out, I would be ok with it.

I just don't want her parents having to watch their daughter starve to death!

[Bunny]

155. What if the parents wanted to withdraw the tube, but her

husband didn't? What would your opinion be then?

[Riding this Donkey]

157. If there was nothing in writing, the tube stays in. n/t

[bettyellen]

167. well that's not the law, and since most people don't have living wills,

we should all be glad of that. parents decide for their underage chilldren. spouses decide for their spouses. whether or not they are "the best spouses" that right doesn't go to the first self righteous person to claim it.

[Riding this Donkey]

169. And........................

[mondo joe]

203. I think you're hung up on your own parenthood

Your child or children will one day be adults and will make their own choices, some of which you may disagree with.

They may have spouses to whom they grant next of kin status.

You will not be the person who knows them best anymore. And your desires for them will not override their own choices.

[Dookus]

193. How 'bout using common sense?

How many people have you met that said "If I were in a PVS, I would like to be kept alive as long as possible, at all costs"?

I haven't met any. Not one. Ever.

How many people have you met that said "If I were in a PVS, I'd like the plug pulled so I could die with dignity"?

I've met a lot. In fact, every person I've ever met when this topic is discussed says they'd rather die than live for decades on life-support.

There is NOT an equal likelihood that Terri wanted to live at all costs.

But that doesn't even matter, because her parents simply don't get to decide. Either marriage means something or it doesn't.

[LisaL]

199. Have you met any people who say-yea, starve me to death?

I want to starve/dehydrate over a period of several weeks? There is no plug to pull in Terri's case, she is on feeding tube, not on a ventilator.

[Dookus]

202. Actually

intelligent people understand that without a cerebral cortex, there is no "suffering" involved in starving that way.

Now, of course, if we were truly civilized, there would be a legal way to end her life more quickly through a simple injection - it wouldn't matter to her, but it willto those who love her.

The phony nonsense that a feeding tube is not life support is silly, yet I see it here constantly.

[mondo joe]

204. My living will states it.

No life support if I'm in that sort of state.

And if that were challenged I'd expect my spouse to fight on my behalf.

[Dookus]

205. Exactly right...

the notion that there's even a decent likelihood that Terri wished to be kept alive at all costs is absurd. I've never known anyone to express that wish.

[mondo joe]

209. Where does this "alive at any cost" thing come from?

I wonder what people are missing in their lives that leaves them unable to accept that there ARE worse things than death.

[Dookus]

211. I think the difference

is what we wish for ourselves and what we wish for our loved ones. I understand the motivation for the parents to lie, cheat and court-shop this case endlessly. That doesn't make them right.

[mondo joe]

213. True. But I know the way to ensure my rights is to ensure the same

True. But I know the way to ensure my rights is to ensure the same for others.

When I consider Terri's parents and what they've done, I'm horrified to think someone could do that to me.

[LostinVA]

184. The COURT made this decision, not Michael Schiavo

He asked the court to make the decision what to do for Terri.

Trust her husband? The court and a gang of experts said yes. Doesn't matter if you like the outcome or not: it's the law. The court also found no evidence of abuse, a charge not brought up against Michael for YEARS.

And yeah, he used the money for her benefit. Her type of care is crazily expensive. My mom is a rehab nurse, and has an idea of what this would cost. She said Terri's basic care is probably billed as $6-9k a DAY. He used his money for the lawyers to defend him against the lawsuits Randall Terry keeps on getting the Schindlers to bring.

Terri's condition was brought on because of bulimia. She was teased for being overweight and called fat by her family while she was growing up. I think there's a healthy dose of guilt in this....

[mondo joe]

207. Witnesses agree she stated she did not want this

1. "should we automatically trust her husband?"

Answer 1: HE, not her parents, is the person SHE chose to make decisions on her behalf if she is incapacitated

Answer 2: It wasn't even automatic anyway - it went to court and he was given the authority based on the evidence

Answer 3: You don't have to believe him - witnesses corrobate her statements that she did not want to live like this

[Tomee450]

106. I can't believe

that people are attacking the parents. I would never want a relative to starve to death. I think the husband is cruel. He is unwilling to consider the pain the parents must be suffering. I don't think he care about Terry any more. I think there is another motive for him continuing to fight for her death.

[bettyellen]

109. my mom's own living will precludes a stomache tube......

are you going to argue with her? or me when i have to enforce it at the hospital?
unlike you, she is informed of her prognosis and understands from seeing others go through it how horrible being kept alive artifically can be. no, she'd rather not be tied to a bed for a few years, rotting away.

[Riding this Donkey]

143. She has a living will that is the point. What if that was all that was

keeping her alive and you didn't want to have it taken out because you still had hope, but her second husband says take it out, starve her to death.

I know I sound silly because I keep saying "starve to death", but that is what they are going to do to her. She will surely feel that.

[barb162]

145. I think you make an exellent point

[bettyellen]

146. well, my dad was in great pain delaying his death with artificial feeding

and he had his hands strapped down 24/7 because he would have pulled at the tube. if your reflexes are dying, you regurgitate the liquid feed and it fills your nasal cavaties, moth and lungs (causing repeated bouts of pnuemonia)
there was no hope, but it could have went on for years without him being able to think or speak a word of sense or enjoying a moment of his day. whatever the law was at that time, we were not allowed to remove the tube, but instead made him a DNR and waited and watched him suffer until he had a cardiac arrest.
my mom has a terminal disease that will also destroy her swallowing reflexes, she doesn't want to go through that, or put us in a position where we feel obligated to her once her mind is gone, and her body does no longer want food. it's natural to allow the patient to slow down and yes, starve, when a disease has run it's course. that's the best you can do for a loved one when there's no hope for recovery, allow them to move on in peace and comfort.

[Riding this Donkey]

151. I feel for you and empathize and offer my sympathies.

I believe that people absolutely have the right to die. It needs to be in writing though. If it's not, situations like this arise.

I don't think we can put a square peg through a round hole every single time.


She is going to starve to death and it will be painful for her, and her parents want her anyway she is and want to help her, bring her home, take care of her. Why cant they do that?

If they decided to let her go as well, I would have no problem with this. There is just something really wrong here.

[bettyellen]

161. thank you. but i have relatives who are absolutist that everything

should be done to keep my mom alive. my aunt actually is going to try and fight it when the time comes. and she may well be successful. it's lucky that we have a geriatric psychologist to testify that my mom made these decisions in her right mind, but i'm not going to be able to pull him out of the pocket if she happens to be there to try and contest it. and these decisions are made in a split second. she says she has this right over us children because she's know my mom longer, if you can believe that. she hid the will this summer and later when my mom was hospilized, she was made a DNR and given last rights, we didn't call my aunt, becasue she would have overidden the DNR i filled out and accused me of murder. that's how right she thinks she is. and she, too, doesn't care how my mom feels about it. she argued with my mom for days not to do the living will, and is bitter we aren't doing things her way.
there is a process that exists for when you don't have this writing, and it upsets me greatly that this would be thrown out in favor of people who admittedly don't care what terri's wishes were. it's going down the wrong road. your husband and adult children are your closest family. your parents give up those rights when you become an adult. sure, everybody should have this written down, but those who don't are relying on their spouses. that should not be violated.

[Modem Butterfly]

163. She can't feel anything

Her brain is gone. There's nothing there to register pain anymore.

[LisaL]

220. Her brain is not gone. If it was gone, she couldn't breathe on her own.

[AZCat]

244. Her cerebral cortex is gone

Breathing is regulated by the Medulla Oblongata, which is a different part of the brain.

[Modem Butterfly]

247. See for yourself

[Riding this Donkey]

149. That is where the rubber hits the road, what compassionate

person wants to put someone through something you know they cannot handle and do not want for their daughter and it will crush them.

This is their daughter, I am sure she would not want them hurt like this.


It is cruel, all the way around.

He could wash his hands of this and live a very happy life.

His actions in this situation are the reasons I doubt his story about her telling him in passing when watching a tv show that she would not want to live like that.

If he can do this to her parents, then he is capable of anything.

[bettyellen]

153. if it were my husband, i would not "wash my hands" either, it's

unbelievable to me that you are most concerned here about the parents happiness, and not terri.

[Riding this Donkey]

156. Have you really researched this, thoroughly?

You do know that he stands to receive money from an insurance policy once teri dies?

You do know that he was not the best husband to her, do you know that?

Are you aware that there is an investigation going on into whether or not he had a hand in her condition.

Do you know that he went to court and won a million dollar settlement to get teri rehab, because he felt she could be rehabilitated. And once he got the money, he put her in a nursing home, with no rehab.

Are you aware that not every test that could be run on her to show brain activity has not been run?

I do absolutely feel for her parent, because of the above and also because they want their daughter alive. You cannot prove to me that teri wants to die.

[Bunny]

159. Well, answer me this:

What insurance policy? Please fill me in on this.

Where is the proof that he wasn't the best husband? What exactly do you mean by that, please give details.

Did you know that there was never any proof that he put her in this condition? Do you know that not one of the paramedics, doctors, nurses, etc. that treated Terri right after she was stricken ever reported any signs of abuse or assault?

Did you know that he won a 750,000 settlement for Terri's treatment, and an additional 300,000 for himself, for the loss of her companionship?

Did you know that he took her to CA for several months for intensive therapy?

I am not sure you have all the facts at all.

[Riding this Donkey]

166. Dr. Michael Baden, a reknown forensic scientist has stated

numerous times that he has reviewed many bone scans which show evidence of head trauma, not a heart attack.

I know that there are two sides to every story, but with the husband not caring at all about the parents of the the woman he allegedly cares so much for, makes me think twice. He knows how they feel and could give a sh*t. Makes me suspicious.

Besides all that Terri, did not put in writing that she opts to starve to death.

I hope you aren't getting the wrong idea, about me. I believe in the right to die and I am also pro choice. I just don't believe that this case fits in either one of those categories for me.

As a mother, I would not want to watch my child starve to death. I can feel for them, can't you. Can you feel for the woman who gave birth to her? To the father who supported and loved her?

[Bunny]

170. But you made some strong accusations in your previous post.

And provided no evidence here to back them up with. I fear that you are only listening to one side of this story.

Of course I feel for her parents. I have two children myself. I pray I am never in their situation, but if I were, I would pray to have the strength and wisdom to act in my children's best interest.

[bettyellen]

164. "not the best husband" LOL. c'mon now.

how old are these charges, they were investigated before and found lacking evidence. the parents had no problem with the son in law until poor terri's prognosis became hopeless. then he became the devil incarnate. no sale.

[LisaL]

200. According to the father, he didn't particularly liked Michael even

before they married. He wasn't particularly happy about Terri marrying him because at the time Michael worked at McDonald's.

[mondo joe]

197. Donkey, you don't know what you're talking about

1. Her care and the legal battle have eaten ANY money he might stand to gain.

2. Is he required to be the BEST husband?

3. There isn't an investigation - there WERE accusations that were looked at and tossed out.

4. She has NO CEREBRAL CORTEX.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

From the 2nd District's first decision on the case:

"Theresa has been blessed with loving parents and a loving husband. Many patients in this condition would have been abandoned by friends and family within the first year. Michael has continued to care for her and to visit her all these years. He has never divorced her. He has become a professional respiratory therapist and works in a nearby hospital. As a guardian, he has always attempted to provide optimum treatment for his wife. He has been a diligent watch guard of Theresa's care, never hesitating to annoy the nursing staff in order to assure that she receives the proper treatment."

[Riding this Donkey]

260. #1 I have heard there is an additional live policy payable upon her death.

#2 He needs to always have her best interests at heart and she would be mortified that he has no compassion for the pain of her parents.

I know I would want to be kept alive ifI knew it's gonna kill my parents, children or husband, what the hell difference would it make to me, if I was in a position that you say Terri is.

#3 I believe there is still an investigation.

#4 They have not been able to run all of the tests they need to show the brain activity. Alot has changed over the years and terri gets no rehab, ex rays, he doesn't want her to have antibiotics.

Something is wrong here and if you want to be blinded by your staunch belief in having complete control over you body, cloud this issue, that is your perogative.

I also, believe in having control of my own body, but I don't assume to have control over Terri's like you do, you want her to die. No one should have the control, there was no living will.


I don't give one god damn shit what the court said about that either, it goes much much deeper than that.

Just because a judge says something don't make it so in my book!

[Lars39]

261. When your cerebral cortex is gone, it is gone for good.

It won't grow back, there is nothing to be rehabilitated. She had rehab, even an implant....nothing worked or will work, because her
cerebral cortex is gone.

And from a 2003 interview:

"There's no money, there's no insurance, there's about $50,000 left in her estate," Michael Schiavo said. "I will not receive a penny from this."

[mondo joe]

263. #1 Rumor, not fact

#2, You have no way to know what would or wouldn't motrify her. Stop projecting. Her parents have admitted they would REFUSE her wishes on the matter.

#3, Wrong.

#4, They HAVE run the tests - look at the court record.

#5, Terri made her wishes known - there were multiple witnesses.

[Riding this Donkey]

267. Her best interests are what this is all about of course the husband should

the absolute best. Apparently he is not.

They have not run all of the test, that is what this next round is about.

Anyones feelings besides your own would be wrong I guess.

There is an investigation ongoing for many years.

What multiple witnesses, I heard him and his sister, that is it, does that make multiple in your book?

[mondo joe]

269. Your smears against him are not based in fact

Your smears are your feelings.

The court record and the independent guardian confirm he's taken extraordinarily good care of her.

That doesn't support your feeling, so they must all be wrong.

The investigation was completed and he was not charged.

That doesn't support your feeling, so it must be wrong.

There is a solid medical concensus on her condition.

That doesn't support your feeling, so it must be wrong too.

[Riding this Donkey]

273. Well, I have seen her picture and video, she looks alive to me!

She is not on a respirator, she is being given nourishment.

Big difference in my book.

There is other evidence, but apparently you do not want to see it.

I really believe your judgement is clouded because as a liberal you don't want to give an inch. I don't want to either, but sometimes things are just plain wrong and this one individual case is wrong.

I'm sorry I can't help it, that is how I feel.

You need to research the other side instead of just researching a side you support.

Starve and dehydrate someone. You say she won't feel, ok, let's say she won't feel it. Do you know what will happen to her body, whether she can feel it or not it is grotesque and inhumane.

[mondo joe]

279. The feeding tube is no different from a respirator

You say there's other evidence: cite it.

My judgement is that I believe in science and law. You've already stated you don't care about either of those things.

You say it's "wrong" but of course that's because you don't care, as you freely admit, about the science or law.

The "other side" has a lot of feeling, but they don't have science, law or fact on their side.

I respect Terri's right to choose a guardian of her choice, and for her wishes to be honored.

If she had instead said "I want to be kept alive at any cost" and the parents instead wanted to take her odd life support I'd oppose them THEN too.

And that's the key difference here - I don't want to impose MY desires on Terri Schiavo - I want to respect HER wishes.

[Riding this Donkey]

282. Well Mondo, sometimes you have to go by what you feel

You know the government is not always right. But I didn't need to tell you that right?

And I have said what I believe, I told you about Michael Baden and the bone scans. And as far as the other stuff, I am sure you are well and capable of finding that information for yourself.

Lastly, because a judge or a lawyer says something, does not make it so in my book.

[Bunny]

280. I find this sentence of yours very telling:

I really believe your judgement is clouded because as a liberal you don't want to give an inch.

Tells me all that I need to know.

[Riding this Donkey]

281. I don't think so bunny.

I am a liberal just as you are, but being a liberal doesnot mean that I have to agree with you on this.

I have said many times that I separate my liberalism from this case.

I find it wrong, plain and simple for many reasons, which I have outlined here.

Please stop insinuating that I am a freeper.

But I guess you want to smear people who don't believe in absolutely everything that you believe in. And that is ok, like I said I am tough skinned.


I am sure there are many liberals in this community who believe as I do, does that make you a freeper? I don't think so, so stop this childishness. Please.

[Bunny]

287. Well, I'll be glad to stop the conversation with you.

But you really ought to stop projecting your own issues onto others. And with that, I bid you adieu.

[mondo joe]

192. He can't wash his hands of it - he's carrying out her wishes

He can't wash his hands of it - he's carrying out her wishes because SHE can't.

If my partner ever turned his back on my request to not be kept alive like that and turned me over to my parents I'd haunt his ass.

Not that my parents would DO that. But Terri's would.

[ultraist]

206. If he turns over custody to the parents, he opens himself up for a lawsuit

The parents could sue for the malpractice settlement, much of which was not spent on her care. That is his motive for not wanting to turn over custody, IMO. He does NOT want to have to pay back that money so that it goes to the wife's care.

If he ensures her death, there is no cause for a suit. She had no children. Keep in mind, in civil court, "a prepoderance of evidence" is a much lower standard than "beyond reasonable doubt." (OJ Simpon's in laws WON in civil court AFTER he was found innocent in criminal court).

Furthermore, current studies have shown that 30% of individuals with her same diagnosis, are misdiagnosed and they are other new studies showing that there is more brain activity than they first thought with that condition.

NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE if she cannot feel pain or if she is not responsive. I posted a NYT article further up on new research on this. There are other recent articles in medical journals. Her parents want her to have a new test to that more accurately measures brain waves.

Isn't that only ethical and moral to further investigate whether or not she feels pain and is responsive before they starve her to death?

No one has made a good case to show this husband is a hero or that her wishes were to die. She does NOT have a terminal illness. There IS a possiblity she could regain some of her faculties.

If it my loved one, I would not give up so easily.

[Dookus]

210. sigh

It's very discouraging to see how this case brings out every right-wing talking point.

Yes, people know for sure she doesn't feel anything, because she has NO CEREBRAL CORTEX!!! It would be impossible for her to have anything resembling consciousness, self-awareness, or even an awareness of pain.

There is NO money to be had. It's all gone. Her care is now being paid for by the state of Florida.

It has been many years, and the courts have agreed without exception that Michael is in the right, and her parents are in the wrong.

[mondo joe]

212. Oh please.

Your opinions, based on your mental telepathy, are fine, but don't bear up to the court records.

The case that she didn't want to be kept alive in this way was already established in court, corroborated by witnesses.

Her parents, on the other hand, have consistently LIED and even admitted they wouldn't remove life support even if they KNEW it was what she requested. That alone establishes them as vile.

Here Cerebral Cortex is GONE, replaced by spinal fluid. There is no recovery.

And love does not trump the personal choices of the individual. You need to reflect a bit more on some vbile parents out there who have no regard for the choices of their adult children.

[LostinVA]

194. People keep on saying this. What is his motive?

I am not being a bitch, I really, really want to know. He won't get money, he could get an annulment in a heartbeat, what? I trust the opinion of Terri's caregivers for more than a decade concerning his motives, and the court's guardian, etc. then her parents, who are being used by Randall Terry and his little outfit.

[Riding this Donkey]

251. Possibly because he never wants her to wake up....................n/t

[LostinVA]

283. You didn't answer the question

WHY wouldn't he want her to wake up? No matter what your hair raisingly biased terrisfight.org says, there is no money, there is no investigation of abuse, yada yada yada. I love how people on this thread refuse to adhere to medical and legal FACTS. Donkey, you are absolutely allowed to have your own opinion, but not your own facts. The Earth is round, the moon is not made of green cheese, and poor Terri Schiavo is gone.


But, you know all of that already.

[Cuban_Liberal]

113. A very well thought-out post.

:thumbsup:

[pauliedee]

110. The husband is a creep

The parents havee every right to keep her alive!!!!

[bettyellen]

117. not according to law, thank god.

[mondo joe]

198. Actually, they don't have any such right

And Terri is dead. They're trying to keep a shell alive.

[Vinca]

136. I think you should cut these people some slack.

This is no more complicated than the fact they love their daughter and don't want to see her die. I really don't see a huge, political agenda on THEIR part. (Though opportunistic right-to-lifers are inserting themselves at every turn.) The parents are convinced, for whatever reason, she might get better. None of us know every smidgen of evidence. None of us has interviewed anyone involved. How can we judge? I'm the first person to defend a person's right to die, but I wouldn't want to be the judge of a case I only know about from the ill-informed mass media. Everyone, please make a living will so your family doesn't have to go through this.

[ultraist]

139. We don't really know what the parents' motive is

It may be that they love their daughter and truly believe there is some hope for her to recover. I would probably feel the same way if my daughter were in that horrific situation. Or, they may be caught up in some fundie belief, that it is murder to let her go. Regardless, they are holding on and I think it's likely they do believe she may recover. This is a normal reaction. The parents also claim that the daughter told them something different than the husband claims.

We also don't know if the husband will get life insurance upon her death. It does seem very odd to me, that after only being married to her for five years, he refused to turn over guardianship to the parents. WHY was this? Was he waiting to get that malpractice settlement for himself? He obviously moved on with his life, why didn't he just let the parents have legal guardianship? I have a hard time blindly accepting that it is because "he is a hero" and wants to honor his wife's wishes.

We only know what we hear in the MSM.

I do feel for those parents. For whatever reason, they are clinging on and do not want to let her die.

[Riding this Donkey]

160. Nicely put ultraist!

There is something wrong with this story and her parents want her, give her to them.

I can only imagine if I were in their shoes. It's called empathy.

[ultraist]

165. Thanks! You made some good points.

I wouldn't just assume the husband is a "hero." As you pointed out, her injuries were suspicious and there were questions of whether or not he had abused her during the marriage. I think it's very odd that she had an unexplained neck injury.

This may well be a case of a abusive husband. A nurse testified that he commented, "is that bitch dead yet?" on numerous occassions. He also did not spend much of that settlement money on her care. She could have had a lot more therapy than he approved/paid for her.

Granted, those fundie pro life groups are nutty, but I think there is something more going on here with the husband.

[Riding this Donkey]

168. I agree and just because we feel so strongly about some of our

other beliefs (right to die) (abortion), does not mean we should turn a blind eye (or at least be suspicious, when something doesn't feel right) to starving someone to death, who did not write a living will, who's parents say this is not her wish, whose parents want nothing but to love and take care of her and all of the suspicions we have outlined. Plain and simple, something is not right with this.

For their sakes alone, let her live.

I just can't help putting myself in their shoes! and wonder how I would feel if it were my child.

A child is your child no matter how old they are.

[bettyellen]

172. husbands and wives be damned, because you mommy knows best.......

until when, she's way old and a little touched in the head? or are we waiting for the parents to die for the spouse to earn theur stripes and become responsible?
go marry someone and tell them you only trust mommy and daddy to make decisions like that. that'll go over big if you're trying to actually make your own family.

[mondo joe]

191. Why put THEIR sake above HERS?

She said this what she DIDN'T want, and witnesses corroborate that.

She selected a guardian when she chose to marry her husband.

Honor HER choices.

[progressivebydesign]

248. I feel for the parents, as well. I hate that they're portrayed as monsters

It freaks me out to see the names these people are being called on DU. I thought we were the compassionate ones? If we don't walk in their shoes, and have never been there, how can we call them names?

I hate that this is being projected as a political issue. It's not. It's a family issue.

I love my husband dearly, but I can guarantee, my Mother knows WAAAYYY more about me than my husband ever will. He and i have not discussed my wishes, but I have with my Mom. It's entirely possible, even if they had only been married 5 years, that the parents knew best.

I'm certain he has his reasons for what he is doing.. but I don't understand why he just doesn't let her go. He's been with his new "wife and kids" longer than he was actively married to Terri.

[mondo joe]

255. They are monsters - they admit they's deny her wishes.

THey have admitted they would refuse to end life support even if they KNEW she requested it. That IS monstrous.

Terri's parents didn't know a lot about Terri, including the fact that she and her husband were looking into fertility treatment. Just because YOUR mother knows you better than your spouse that it's true of every family.

You asy you don't understand why he doesn't just let go, which means you're not even considering the most obvious answer: Terri is gone and he's moved on with his life, but he's still honoring her wishes and refusing to abandon her to people who wouldn't.

[mondo joe]

190. Fuck them both.

No slack for people who refuse to honor someone's choice about their OWN body.

They've already stated they would not remove the feeding tube EVEN IF she had expressed her request to do so in a living will.

[Riding this Donkey]

171. Hey guys, hate to leave ya now, It was a good discussion, but

I got to go tend to life's responsibilities!

Have a good night! Maybe we can pick up the discussion again soon.

:hi:

[Soup Bean]

178. I hate everything about the politicization of this story.

The whole damn world is involved in a personal tragedy. Everyone has their opinions, but the grief and agony of both sides of this struggle are absolutely heartbreaking.

The husband is trying to carry out the supposed wishes of his wife, and he deserves some kind of life.

The parents want to take care of their daughter, whom they love so much, but their grief may be blinding them to what's best for their daughter.

There are NO winners in a situation like this, EVER. Instead of arguing over euthanasia, everyone should be out preparing Living Wills.

Awful. Horrible. Terrible. Sad.

[bitchkitty]

215. If I were her mother,

I'd fight for her too. I'm not saying it's right, but Terry isn't lying there snoring. She's awake, her eyes roam around the room, she responds to certain stimuli. Her mom sits with her, brushes her hair, etc. I think her mom can't let go. I had a very hard time recently when we had to put my dog down - he was so old and sick that he was miserable, but I put it off for longer than I should have. I still could hardly stand it. I still miss him. What must it be like for Terry's mom?

[LostinVA]

216. Other Schindler Motions

"Other motions by the Schindlers ask that some news reporters be allowed to see Terri Schiavo's interactions with her parents, since they contend she responds to them; that they be allowed to take pictures with her before she dies and that those photographs not become Michael Schiavo's property, as a current court order now requires; that she be allowed to die at home; and that they be allowed to bury her rather than the cremation her husband has planned."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/01/brain.damaged.woman.ap/index.html

Bizarre. Especially the cremation. The Church has allowed cremations for a long time. I guess that's their reason, anyway.

Also, the article states that even if Michael was forced to divorce Terri, she would still have her stomach tube removed because the Court has ordered it so. THAT I didn't know. So... what's the point of all of this from them then?

[Modem Butterfly]

223. I think the parents are just being petty

BTW, I couldn't recover the link to that article I referenced yesterday. I tried Googling it, but no luck so far. My apologies.

[LostinVA]

225. No worries! I definitely believe you

I was just wondering if it was a priest, monsignor, bishop, lay person, etc. Just a curiosity thing. Thanks anyway!

[Riding this Donkey]

270. Parents are being petty?????

I don't think I can even reply to that one.

[janx]

252. The religious right wants to continue to use her and to publicize

this as much as possible, even after the tube is pulled--at least that's what it sounds like to me.

It's revolting.

[DemocracyInaction]

276. Husband and I just signed our "last wishes" doument today

which goes into situations like this-------pull the plug. These parents are sicko nuts. There is no hope for her....get over it. Vegatation is not a noble state. She only knows breathing and eventual death. BUT I do NOT agree with this barbaric shiting method of "removing the feeding tube". For Christ's sake we are more humane to our goddamn animals. This is where we need to be able to give someone a lethal injection (like we do to deathrow killers) and let them go out in peace. What a horrible bunch of fucking assholes we are in this country.