All these Clark threads have me giggling like a titmouse

[WilliamPitt]

Tee hee hee hee...

Evidently, Clark sucks because he hasn't chosen to join the race yet. News flash: By not jumping in yet, by creating a buzz, he is insuring maximum splash when he does join (and yeah, I think it's certain he will run, and not take a VP slot unless he loses a bunch of primaries).

I also think these threads demonstrate a deserved level of fear within the ranks of the Taliban supporters for other candidates. You should be scared. Clark will hit this campaign like a goddam tornado. Why? Because he is a General, and because he is a known and oft-televised CNN guy. He's their boy, a bona fide media darling, and they will give him the full measure of air time immediately out of the gate.

Kerry supporters: Clark will tap into those who would vote Kerry for his war record.

Dean supporters: Clark will tap into those who think someone with 'foreign policy experience' (and you can say "He doesn't have any!" and be right, to a degree, but a lot of people will see 'General' and think otherwise) should be President.

In general: The mainstream media will play him up because he is a Pentagon guy, as much a symbol of the status quo as a dollar bill, and therefore will be a golden boy in the eyes of those who want surface change instead of real change.

I'm just getting a big kick out of watching the General Discussion flailings. I've gone from getting angry about the way we butcher our allies here to being genuinely amused. It's like going to a freak show and seeing a two-headed seal who tells better jokes than Chris Rock. Hilarious. Pathetic, but genuinely funny.

But why vote for him? Besides the fact that he could very well win? Let's see:

On the 'War on Terra':

"Terrorism is a multilateral problem. You cannot defeat it in one nation. You need international police work, teamwork, international harmonization of laws against terror, a whole series of things. You act unilaterally; you lose the commitment of your allies to make it work. That's the one thing that will kill you in the war on terrorism."

"Much of the terrorist network draws support and resources from within countries friendly or allied with us. And here there are very real limitations to the use of American military force. What we really need are closer alignments... Through greater legal, judicial, and police harmonization, we need to make the international environment more seamless for us than it is for the international terrorists we seek."

On the PATRIOT Act:

"One of the things about the war on terror that I am disturbed about is that we've essentially suspended habeas corpus, which is something that's only been done once in American history and then only for a very brief period. When I go back and think about the atmosphere in which the PATRIOT Act was passed, it begs for a reconsideration and review. And it should be done."

On the environment:

"Human beings do affect the environment and all you have to do is fly along the Andes and look at the disappearing glaciers down there and you recognize that there is something called global warming and it's just getting started as China and India modernize."

(Big deal? Find anyone in the current administration to say, "there is something called global warming and it's just getting started")

Economic policy and the tax cuts:

"I would not have supported . They were not efficient in terms of stimulating the kind of demand we need to move the economy back into a recovery mode, a strong recovery and a recovery that provides jobs. There are more effective ways of using the resources. Secondly, the tax cuts weren’t fair. I mean, the people that need the money and deserve the money are the people who are paying less, not the people who are paying more. I thought this country was founded on a principle of progressive taxation. In other words, it’s not only that the more you make, the more you give, but proportionately more because when you don’t have very much money, you need to spend it on the necessities of life. When you have more money, you have room for the luxuries and you should—one of the luxuries and one of the privileges we enjoy is living in this great country. So I think that the tax cuts were unfair. And, finally, I mean, you look at the long-run health of the country and the size of the deficit that we’ve incurred and a substantial part of that deficit is result of the tax cuts. You have to ask: ‘Is this wise, long-run policy?’ I think the answer is no."

On affirmative action:

"I’m in favor of the principle of affirmative action. Whether is the right plan or not, and whether that should be 10 points, not 20 points, whether it should be, let’s say, an income level cutoff there at which you don’t get the points if you’re above a certain income, you can tool with the plan. But what you can’t have is you can’t have a society in which we’re not acknowledging that there is a problem in this society with racial discrimination. There is, there has been and the reason so many of us filed is we saw the benefits of affirmative action in the United States armed forces. It was essential in restoring the integrity and the effectiveness of the armed forces."

P.S. Clark told Michael Tomasky of the American Prospect in an interview that he favors both abortion rights.

(source for all this: http://www.draftclark2004.com/issues.asp)

So let's put to bed all this nonsense about "I know nothing about Clark," because now you do, and you also have the wherewithal to find out more. Clark sounds like a Democrat straight out of central casting to me on a lot of very important issues. There will be plenty to disagree with, I'm sure, but read his own words and know that, well, now you know.

The best argument I've heard against Clark came today when I found myself, surprisingly, on the phone with Dennis Kucinich. He said, "Why on earth would we want someone from the Pentagon in the White House?" Food for thought there.

But hey. What do I know? Nothing, that's what. Please continue with your fun and games. I'll be here giggling, and waiting for another guy from Little Rock to, possibly, surprise the shit out of everyone.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. Drinks on Me If We Ever Meet, Will

I feel like hugging you right now. :-)

Can we at least sing Kumbaya?

DTH

[5thGenDemocrat]

80. Christ. Will Pitt and I agree on something

Now I have to go kill myself.
John
I'm having great fun watching all this primary stuff play out. I think we have quite a strong Dem field if we let it work out. Shee -- we fight more here at DU than the candidates do from behind the podiums.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. The word TITMOUSE has ME giggling

I think Clark's strategy has been brilliant...lots of coverage without the partisan label and not a dime of corporate cash...what's not to like about that?

[maha]

9. Except that they don't giggle.

Maybe they chirp.

[RichV]

3. Good job, Will

[glarius]

4. Do you really believe CNN will support him?

I read somewhere that Lou Dobbs has banished him from his show...and I don't think he's been asked on CNN to be a commentator since he voiced his dislike of the way Bush is alienating the rest of the world....I could be wrong, but I don't think he's in their good books.:shrug:

[WilliamPitt]

7. I don't see how it can be avoided

and besides, the other networks will steal him and splash him everywhere, if only to make CNN look bad.

[RichV]

31. CNN

Clark hasn't been on Lou's show or on CNN's staff since he started officially contemplating a run in June. Lou doesn't want a presidential candidate on as a military analyst. Makes sense to me. Clark voluntarily left CNN in June to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest. And yes, he's been on CNN a lot... just as a talking head instead of as a military analyst. I don't know how often, but I'm sure the folks from digitalclark.com probably have most of the appearances archived.

[janekat]

67. Lou Dobbs is an idiot....

and a shill for Bush and the Republican Party. I have to switch to MSNBC the minute I head his voice. I'm sure Lou just got his panites in a bundle because Wesley didn't That makes me like Clark even more...

[elfin]

41. He is off because

he resigned as a paid commentator when he deicided to give this serious consideration- that integrity thing don't ya know.

We shall see how they treat him when/if he announces. If they go "soft" on him, they may fear charges of not being "fair and balanced" - but hey, he is one of their own.

[blondeatlast]

53. So he'll go elsewhere--he's viable, even if he isn't a candidate.

[KoKo]

86. CNN, MSNBC and CNBC will support him....Aunold has gotten more free air

on those cable networks than Shrubby......You better believe they will support him! :-)'s He's a "media darling type." Plus he was on the payroll of CNN. They are "loyal folks."

[glarius]

92. When he was on CNN's payroll they didn't know he was a Democrat!

I can't help but feel that will make a difference. I don't know why you think CNN is loyal..:shrug:

[Fridays Child]

5. What is the sound of a titmouse giggling?

Is that one of those Buddhist koans?

Seriously, I agree. Intentionally or otherwise, Clark is certainly maximizing the effect.

[WilliamPitt]

10. What is the sound of one titmouse clapping

*world stops*

[BurtWorm]

14. If a titmouse giggles in the forest, does it make a sound?

Do titmice... titmouses...? titsmouses...?

Do these birds make a sound when one wing is flapping?

[BelgianMadCow]

58. that depends

whether the titmice are african or american.

The wing flapping frequency is different, you see :-)

:smoke:

[Booberdawg]

6. Best objective summary on Clark I have seen yet

[MoonAndSun]

8. I am for Dean and I have been since I first heard him slam bush* against

the Iraq invasion, but I also like Clark very, very much. If Dean does not win the nomination, I will be disappointed, but I will be more then satisfied if Clark gets the nomination.

I don't mind the bashing threads because everyone needs to vent, but I wish the discourse would not get to the vicious stage, as it does at times.

[Avalux]

11. Well said

and for the record, I am not a Clark supporter because of the uniform. I listen to what he says, pay attention to what he's been doing since he retired. Others should do the same before posting. Thanks Will.

[ignatiusr]

12. Excellent Post

And an unbiased one, which is refreshing. Only thing I would want to respond to: the Kucinich Pentagon reference. I think this is mostly a knee-jerk reaction, and the implication is not a fair one. If you look at Clark's history, he was not a traditional "Pentagon man." Many of his actions were in contradiction to the traditions of the old Republicans in the Pentagon. Which is why, not surprisingly, they relieved him of his position prematurely due to ideological differences. So I think that just arbitrarily dismissing and demonizing people who have worked in the Pentagon is absolutely the wrong strategy. If we do so, how then do we plan on changing the way our military structure works? We need to work to change the Pentagon's way of thinking, and champion those within it who are starting to do so. I believe that Clark was one of those people.

[WilliamPitt]

20. My sense of Dennis

is that he is viscerally angry at the Pentagon en masse. Were I to sit with him and get a detailed conversation out of him, I don't think he'd say that Clark is some kind of Trojan Horse for Curtis LeMay types. But I think he'd also say, "Why risk it?"

We'll see. I'm interviewing Kucinich next week.

[TacticalPeek]

74. "someone from the Pentagon in the White House?"

While Clark is not "from the Pentagon", that place is where a lot of the stink of carnage and cash originates, with masters and minions all about.

Who better for the reformation and reckoning needed there?

[WaterDog]

78. I think I agree...

hopefully. Who better to know about all the wasteful and bogus stuff. I hope he's as progressive as he sounds. He's my number 2 choice for president.

[ProudGerman]

114. Interesting

Clark is my number one choice for President. But until he announces, I'm pulling for my second choice, Howard Dean. When I first heard rumblings that Clark might run, I searched everywhere for anything attribute to him. Liked everything I saw.


Just one quick question. When he's President, do we call him Mr. President, or General, or Mr. President General Clark?


Heh, just thought of something. If we win Congress as well, we could appoint the rank of General of the Army(5 stars) on Clark. That sure beats naming an airport, and would piss off all kinds of freepers. Hmmm, successor for the Abrams could be the Clark. Ok, now I'm being silly.

[WilliamPitt]

115. They called Eisenhower 'Mr. President'

So...

[frank frankly]

83. great point

look forward to reading the interview!

[twilight]

90. agree w/your post & will be real interested abt.DK

that ought to be a very interesting interview! I hope you'll share it with us an with Mike Malloy if at all possible Will!

Thanks you are great and I cannot agree enough with every point you've made!

Who the hell is Clark really?

:kick:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

22. He Actually Got Canned by Cohen BECAUSE He Wasn't Traditional Pentagon

In my book, that's a big plus.

DTH

[Snow]

43. Yes, there's some real variety among people with stars in their shoulders.

I have a friend who has two, retired, was in the Army Rangers, is now one of the more left-leaning people I know, especially at his age - 84. He's looking at having to sell his ranch, which he loves, to pay his medical bills, since his med benefits keep getting cut and he keeps getting older.

[gully]

13. Hey, I checked earlier for info, and didn't find a thing...

anyhow, on the issues he parallels Dean, right down to Gun Control. I found that interesting...

Interesting comment by Dennis Kucinich ... Perhaps (if he runs) he'll take some of the negative focus off of Dean ???

[Richardo]

15. I'm liking what I'm hearing...

...and, with all due respect to Kucinich, don't think a Pentagon pedigree is an a priori disqualification for the Presidency.

1) For one thing, the Repub congress tends to add substantial military pork to their budgets - often more than the Pentagon asks for. I'd think a top ranked General would have the credibility to cut these programs.

2) For two, as we've said here many times regarding the chickenhawks, those who have been in the military are much better suited to evaluate the real utility (and cost, BTW) of military action. As the General said: "there there are very real limitations to the use of American military force."

[Zuni]

57. excellent points

And a military commander would know how to use a budget properly rather than waste it on enormous missle defense shields.

[WilliamPitt]

65. One would hope

[CMT]

16. what we are seeing to a certain extent

is how it would have been had Colin Powell jumped into the race for president in the fall of 1995--perhaps on a slightly smaller scale. It should be interesting. I'll say one thing this will be a great test for our candidates. If Dean (or Kerry, Gep, ect) can come out of the primaries having defeated someone who will be given all the buildup by the mainstream press imaginable he will be ready and battle tested enough to beat George Worthless Bush.

[Dookus]

17. Will!

How DARE you clutter up this board with facts?

Don't you know that:

a) Clark has NO positions on the issues
b) It's TOO late for him to run!
c) He's a tool of the military

Sheesh - don't you READ DU?

[BelgianMadCow]

59. I read DU

those indeed seem at moments the dominant DU positions

*sigh*

[Dookus]

61. No...

they're not dominant, and everytime they're posted, they're easily refuted for all to see.

There's a small handful of people who keep posting the same stupid memes over and over again.

[disgruntella]

18. But we don't know anything about this guy!

</sarcasm>

Good summary of Clark's strengths. The theory that Clark is "too late" is obviously demolished by all the attention he's been getting here, and lately in the media. I am personally getting a little impatient wondering if he's going to run, but I'm just one person -- I can wait!

[Autumn]

19. Great

Thank you so much for this posting.

[molly]

21. If he jumps in - I would bet MONEY, it will be a photo finish

between him and Kerry. He, at this point, would be my number 2 - Kerry is much more of a Washington insider - although Clark has his friends.

[Kahuna]

70. According to the new Gallup poll, Clark takes from..

all top tier candidates.

They asked: 13a. If Wesley Clark DOES NOT run for the Democratic nomination for president in 2004, please tell me which of those candidates you would be most likely to support for the nomination.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/2003-09-11-poll-results.htm

If Clark runs If Clark doesn’t run
Dick Gephardt 15 17
Howard Dean 13 15
Joe Lieberman 12 13
John Kerry 11 13
Wesley Clark 9 --
Carol Moseley Braun 5 5
Bob Graham 5 6
John Edwards 5 5
Al Sharpton 3 3
Dennis Kucinich 2 2
Other 1 1
No One 5 5
No Opinion 14 15

[ArkDem]

23. The difference is that this Little Rockian has no money

.

[WilliamPitt]

26. There was a thread earlier

about all these former Clinton guys and congresspeople practically salivating about diving in to his campaign. If/when that happens, Clark will need a backhoe to gather all the cash that will be thrown at him.

[protect freedom impeach bush now]

35. me thinks Clinton Clark a "winner"

I got your book - The Greatest Sedition Is Silence,

just today. After just a scan - its GREAT !

[WilliamPitt]

42. Thanks!

:grouphug:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

27. Clark Will Have Plenty of Cash

Bank on it. The Clintons are backing him, he'll have access to their donor rolodex.

DTH

[hlthe2b]

24. thanks, WIll... I remain undecided, but I am very excited...

about Clark and his potential.

And, I'm damned tired of we (democrats) eating our own! Come on folks, let this play out and may the best candidate rip the tonsils out of Bush and his ilck.

Clark is smart, savy, and well positioned, I think to go for it. If he does, I will surely be there strongly supporting him. If it ends up another Dem candidate, well, I'll be there for them too (although Lieberman might be questionable).

For God's sake, let's focus on getting rid of Bush and not demonizing our competing candidates!

[asjr]

45. Focus on

getting rid of Bush is or should be our No. 1 mantra. Any of the candidates could and would be better than Bush. I like Clark. I love Dean. I especially like them because they are not beltway boys. Also, I think a titmouse titters.

[jonnyblitz]

25. LMFAO...titmouse??

what in hell is THAT?!?! LOL

[WilliamPitt]

30. Titmouse

:)

[gully]

33. What is the position of the "Titmouse" on the issues?

I think we need a few more candidates myself ;)

[WilliamPitt]

34. The titmouse is unavailable for candidacy at this time

but says "tweet tee hee hee tweet."

Translation: Thanks!

:)

[gully]

36. how bout we start drafttitmouse.com?

:crazy:

I hear he'll announce by the end of next year?

[WilliamPitt]

39. ...with his left wing in the air

:)

[gully]

49. he he N/M

[DrWeird]

66. To hell with titmouse.

Owl has my vote.

I really appreciate his position on returning education to caverns and streams, and having sex with creatures in treetops.

[jonnyblitz]

54. LOL...looks like a bird to me!!

;) :crazy:

[protect freedom impeach bush now]

28. like what i read - Clark is a winner. Let the Shredding Begin.

i'd vote for Clark.

i'd vote for Kerry (though not my fav)

i'd vote for Dean, even if there was a massive snow storm
of the last 5 centuries, even if there was a free concert on election day where Janis & Jimmy came back from the dead.(well i'd vote then go
see Joplin & Hendrix as fast as my butt could get there)

If its a Clark-Dean ticket -- Bush's crooked ass will thrown
out in 2004 election - I'd bet the farm on that, hell i'd bet
the whole damn wad on Bush and his PNAC cabal will BE
SHREDDING DOCUMENTS 24 HOURS A DAY AFTER ELECTION DAY TILL
JAN 20.

In FACT Bush & Cheney & Rumsfeld & his PNAC cabal will
be SHREDDING documents for MONTHS to cover their crooked
asses.

[fedupwithbush]

29. Thanks for the info.

I'm reading and learning about all of them. Clark just scored 100% on the way I think. I'll make up my mind early next year. In the meantime, the more the merrier. I want someone that I can vote for and not hold my nose, that believes we need allies, and that believes everyone needs a helping hand sometimes. It would be unbelievable to get one I could ALWAYS count on to tell the truth, even when it hurts. But I can dream.

[Triana]

32. Thanks Will!

Just the info I needed. I still hold dear the prospect of a Dean/Clark ticket, but would vote for either seperately - depending on who won the primary. Choosing betwixt the two - probably Clark...or maybe Dean. Aw Hell I dunno!

[Eloriel]

37. You turnin' on your guy Kerry?

Sure sounds like it. I don't think Clark's a GOOD choice, but I do think he's better than Kerry.

Eloriel

[WilliamPitt]

38. *groan*

Lessee...

I've posted a fundraising thread for Kucinich...

Several defenses of Kerry...

Several defenses of Dean...

A compendium of reasons to vote for any of the candidates...

And now this.

Eloriel, you are more boringly predictable than my wristwatch. It's broken, but is at least correct twice a day.

[KoKo]

85. Sounds like Will is for Kerry/Clark.....it's a surprise.....but whatever..

The wind blows left right and inbetween here on DU.......and somedays it's hard to tell which way at all it blows. :shrug: To each his own.

[Democrats unite]

40. Will, my respect for you...

Grows in leaps and bounds!

[never cry wolf]

44. Shrub can kiss the military vote

goodbye if Clark is on the ticket, the ones that are still holdouts, that is.

[fishnfla]

47. shrub's in trouble with the military vote already

Cut VA benefits, cut combat pay, extended combat tours, "bring 'em on"
Clark would mop up on retired and active duty military.

[Cocoa]

46. you're giggling because you don't understand

If you understood why his vagueness bothers me, you would know that those quotes don't address my concerns in the least. He could say anything, how do we know he means it?

Bush said "no nation building" during his campaign. There's a lot of evidence that this was NOT the actual policy.

[WilliamPitt]

48. How do you know any of them mean it?

Speaking of vague, your criticism that you don't "know he means it" is as fuzzy as my slippers. How do you know any of them mean it? Some kind of beam from space? Or ESP?

And to compare Bush's statements to Clark's statements is a pretty obvious smear with no connection to reality. How do I know that? Because I just do...like you. :)

[Cocoa]

60. because they have records they have to answer for

when Kucinich came out as pro-choice, he had to answer to the fact that he had voted pro-life most of his career.

Same with all the other candidates. When my own preferred candidate Gephardt slapped Bush around about the war, Dennis got to slap Gep about his Rose Garden appearance with Bush.

[hippiegranny]

71. gephartd?

you're actually for gephardt? wow. so gephardt actually has supporters. hmmmm. interesting!

i would vote for gephardt too. in the unlikely event he wins the nomination, i will vote for him because he'll be sporting that big D behind his name on the ballot.

but gephardt? why?

[WilliamPitt]

73. Gephardt is a proven populist

with the best pro-Union record of any of the candidates. He supports, right off the top of my head, an International Minimum Wage that, if passed, would do a lot to make globalization a good thing, and would help to stem the tide of outsourcing that is stealing jobs from Americans.

[Dookus]

55. Again, Cocoa...

you're placing unreasonable conditions on the debate.

You say he has no positions, or vague positions. We provide direct quotes from him on a variety of issues, and you reject them as potential lies.

As has been pointed out, there's no more reason to believe Clark's lying about these positions than there is that Kucinich or Dean or anybody else is lying about THEIR positions.

So you just keep repeating the same lie that he has no positions. That's dishonest.

[LynneSin]

50. Like this titmouse???

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:R-JvMFpc2EkC:

[WilliamPitt]

62. Mmmmmmmmmmmm...tiiiiiitmouse...

:)

[LynneSin]

79. yer not giggling anymore!!!???!!!!

:shrug:

[WilliamPitt]

91. No, I'm...doing...something...else...

:)

[BelgianMadCow]

63. erm....

:kick: ?

[blondeatlast]

51. Not to mention, he can speak off the cuff like anything.

Heard him on NPR shortly after the invasion of Iraq started. Damn, he was good. Still deciding, but he's a contender.

[clar]

52. Some of these threads

positively reek of fear, and I take no small measure of pleasure from that. My only caveat to your post is that although Mr. Clark has positions, he has no record. Now, don't jump on me folks, I'm talking about the type of record that members of Congress or Governors garmer over the years. I don't see this as that big a deal, just thought I'd point it out. I'm glad Clark's jumping in. The more attention our candidates get, the better.

[RichV]

56. Might both help and hurt

in that he has no legislative or executive record to criticize or praise. Will be hard to accuse of him inconsistency, lying, changing stances, etc. at this point. Obviously also makes it harder for us and the American people to judge him as a candidate.

[robbedvoter]

109. Blumenthal: Clark is a general the Pentagon hated

Also, from ABC's Note a quote from his speech last night:
"Clark, 58, who headed the U.S. Southern Command and was NATO
commander during the 1999 campaign in Kosovo, said his 34 years in
the military taught him, "The highest calling of the armed forces is
not to wage war, but to prevent war."

[Donna Zen]

64. An answer to DK

Dear Rep. Kucinich:

First let my thank you for raising your voice at a time when many in our party chose silence. You are a true beacon shedding some light onto our brainwashed country.

In answer to your question: "Why on earth would we want someone from the Pentagon in the White House?"

I had to grapple with this same question when Gen. Clark hit my radar screen last spring. As a child of the sixties, my distrust was deep, but my political stance is open to a full investigation and led me to some conclusions.

If a Democrat can retake the White House, he/she will be dealing with an empty treasury just as Norquist has always advocated. There are few places to find the money that will be needed to fund the programs and mechanisms that would turn this nation away from its current disastrous course. The unauditable Pentagon budget needs someone with the credibility, the connections, and knowledge of the buried bodies to shake out the coffers. Who better to form the alliances and put the pressure on that one of their own?

And here's a question: can Tom Delay dish up a round of soft on defense to Wesley Clark when he's pushing some Texas-based military pork?

Gaining the White House would be a tremendous victory, but unless the Democrat taking up residence can govern, we will find ourselves slogging through the "Clinton Wars Redux."

That was the answer I gave myself and now share with you. If I am mistaken, then as a child of sixties who marched in Chicago, who marched at Kent State, who marched in Washington, and who most recently marched in Augusta, I am ready to take it to the streets again. I hope I don't have to, but knowing that others of wisdom and high ideals such as yourself will be with me keeps me moving forward.

I do hope you understand my reasoning even if you disagree. Thank you and stay safe.

DZ

[knight_of_the_star]

68. Oh yeah!

I'm going to tape the first debate between Clark and Bush for posterity. Clark will have no trouble getting funds as soon as he jumps in. He has Clinton behind him, and that guyg can pull a lot of strings in the party.

[seventhson]

69. WTF is a titmouse?

and why are you giggling like one?

I agree with Dennis.

But you make some good points. Clark is hopefully NOT a spook like some of our other "friends"

A well balanced account.

I am starting to wartm up to you Will.

You write like a genius -- but to see you praise Kucinich and Clark is actually refreshing (unless Kerry thinks the further fracturing wuth Clark will boost him from his secret polls)

I DO think that Clark hurts Dean most in many ways. Dean is the most McCain like of the candidates and appeals to the critical independents (can they even vote in Dem primaries)? Anyway, I see Clark getting the less conventional dems (the Dean dems) and the more conventiuonal dems will mostly go to Kerry if they are IMO really dumb on the issues and THINK Kerry is the standard bearer for liberalism, unions, sound policies on health nd environment and he's a damn veteran.

So Clark COULD be stealth candidate to sabotage Dean, After all - you do NOT get to be head of NATO unless you are an insider -- even under a Clinton. But I am open to info on his history now that he seems to be a real contender. Interesting but it scares me that it might hurt Dean and Help Kerry.

I sure as hell hope not. I could live with Dean/Clark or (after Bush) EVEN Clark/Dean -- I hope.

[Paulie]

81. I agree with Dennis too.

You don't get to be part of the brass unless you play the game. Sorry, but just having stars is taint enough.

From Col. John Boyd, our greatest military thinker of the 20th century:




"One day you will come to a fork in the road. And
you're going to have to make a decision about what direction you want
to go." raised his hand and pointed. "If you go that way you
can be somebody. You will have to make compromises and you will have
to turn your back on your friends. But you will be a member of the club
and you will get promoted and you will get good assignments." Then Boyd
raised the other hand and pointed another direction. "Or you can go
that way and you can do something - something for your country and for
your Air Force and for yourself. If you decide to do something, you
may not get promoted and you may not get the good assignments and you
certainly will not be a favorite of your superiors. But you won't have
to compromise yourself. You will be true to your friends and to yourself.
And your work might make a difference." He paused and stared. "To be
somebody or to do something. In life there is often a roll call. That's
when you will have to make a decision.

To be or to do? Which way will you go?"

To be, or to do? Where did you stand Mr. Clark? On the side of light, or darkness. Because my support depends on your answer. :)

[Mairead]

102. Interesting quote!

Saul Alinsky once said much the same thing to a group of seminarians who wanted to know how they could maintain their idealism and really be a force for good in the world. Alinsky told them 'when you walk out that door, decide whether you want to be a priest or a bishop. Once you've made that decision, all other decisions will be easy.'

[carpetbagger]

84. A titmouse is a small forest bird...

About the size of a sparrow, that's found through most of North America. The picture and wav below are of Tufted Titmouse, which is in the east, but there are several closely related species (Black Crested in much of Texas, Bridled in the southwest, Juniper in the intermountain west, and Oak near the west coast). They make a bunch of different noises, including a giggling sound, which is towards the end of this file:

http://birds.cornell.edu/BOW/TUTI/tutiW.wav

[Clark Can WIN]

100. and we now return you to your regularly scheculed program

LOL. cute little sucker. Nice giggle.

[KoKo]

87. seventhson.....I look forward to your Clark Googles...should be good!

:D

[WilliamPitt]

89. God help us

:)

[sendero]

72. Clark's entry...

... into this race can be NOTHING BUT GOOD no matter how you slice it. He will widen the debate, he will make mincemeat of the absurd notion that Dems are "anti-military", and frankly he seems to be a trustworthy person, you don't see that every day.

I'm looking forward to the apoplectic reaction of the right to his announcement :)

[Oracle]

75. Get fucking serious...

If there was a strong progressive liberal party in this country...I sure as fuck wouldn't be here or anywhere near the Democratic party, nor would a good chunk of the people on DU.

You made some excellent points about Clark though.

[WilliamPitt]

76. Om

Mellow. You're among friends. How do I know?

"If there was a strong progressive liberal party in this country, I sure as fuck wouldn't be here or anywhere near the Democratic party, nor would a good chunk of the people on DU."

You're right.

[Kahuna]

77. Well. That was honest.

:7

[frank frankly]

82. good post

kick

[Imalittleteapot]

88. Titmouse speak is...

peter, peter, peter. They don't giggle Will.
I agree that Clark is playing a good game, creating a lot of buzz.
I soooo liked what he said on Bill Maher, miscellaneous appearances and in the quotes that you have shared. I've added Clark to the Kerry/Dean fence I've been straddling.

:yourock:

[tokenlib]

93. Will is correct--things may change drastically..

It is like waiting for a hurricane. Too many questions. You know damn well that Clark will get the news magazine covers like Dean did. You know the Clinton connections will bring money.

So will the DLC see Clark as their boy?? Will he suck the wind out of Dean's sails? Will he erode Kerry and Dean equally? Will Clark leapfrog into frontrunner status?

Will is right--this has the potential to get wild. The great unknown--a whole new political world?? Or not....

[WilliamPitt]

94. Kick

[Clark Can WIN]

96. And KICK!

:kick:

[knight_of_the_star]

99. And KICK! Yet again

:kick:

[OrdinaryTa]

95. Titmouse Humor

The reason most people haven't heard a titmouse giggle is they never say anything that a titmouse finds funny. Titmouses have a peculiar sense of humor, but they do laugh, sometimes uproariously. It's a gurgling kind of sound, deeper than you'd expect.

A titmouse walks into a bar, y'see ...

[Adjoran]

97. Giggle, but the repubs won't be laughing

Especially if Clark gets in and the race narrows to the top tier candidates. All voices should be heard, but those who aren't getting any following need to listen to the supporters they don't have.

[IranianDemocrat]

98. A-fucking-MEN

Come to my house we'll have a couple of drinks ;-)

[Romberry]

101. Will, you are better than this.

WTF is "I also think these threads demonstrate a deserved level of fear within the ranks of the Taliban supporters for other candidates"?

Taliban supporters for other candidates? Have you been hired by Joe Lieberman? That remark was beneath you. In fact, that remark was postively "Republican". I'll assume you were impaired when you posted. If not, there is no excuse.

[WilliamPitt]

112. Nothing is beneath me

except the floor.

Taliban candidate supporters. There. I said it again.

[Mairead]

103. "In 33 years of service, Clark spent only 7.5 in command"

"The rest of his service was as a staff weenie, an aide, a student, at the White House or at some fat cat headquarters."

http://www.hackworth.com/9aug99.html

FWIW

[Clark Can WIN]

104. My goodness, you certainly have set all of us straight.

I missed the "staff weenie" designation in the military. Is the US congress involved with voting upon staff weenie designations? Perhaps no?

Hackworth is a known DEMOCRAT HATER, who is threatened by anyone in the military with more grey cells and education than himself. Makes him wet his pants.

[Mairead]

106. Did you see my "FWIW"?

[Clark Can WIN]

105. I love the smell of

fear in the morning. Buenos Dias!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

107. "Only" 7.5 Years

Even if we accept that hack's account as true, it's 7.5 more years than Shrub has ever been in "command" of anything.

Clark has also led and managed men and organizations for his entire career as an officer, albeit on a smaller (but ever-growing) level than as a General. He was also the first member of his West Point class to command a battalion.

DTH

[robbedvoter]

108. Gasp! So he wasn't born with his stars attached? Had to earn them? Shock!

Why would we need someone who wasn't born rich and powerful - I can't figure it out! I mean , look at what we got now!
Next thing we'll think "meritocracy"!
Pssst! Got another one for ya: Clinton also was President for only 8 years so what's the big deal?

[amazona]

110. my titmice don't giggle!

Your titmice giggle? Is this a tufted titmouse giggling? I have tufted titmouse. They sing. They scold. They could even be construed as complaining. But giggling? Now *I'm* giggling at the very idea. :-)

(BTW, I think Clark is a fine candidate, and I wish him the best in making a difficult decision.)

[cosmicdot]

117. maybe he meant 'google' - googling is real popular at the mo'

:)

[leesa]

111. But he doesn't realize that the war on terrorism is bullshit

therefore we would continue the pathetic cycle of violence. He is a product of the military industrial complex and we would be in one war after another like we have always been when military men rule. WHY can't America grow up out of this idiotic warring mode. The ONLY way to stop terrorism is to stop fucking around with other countries and this man has NO recognition of this.

[Donna Zen]

113. Well leesa

Clark's words re. 9/11:

Others will argue, and in my view correctly, that our security depends more on building windows and bridges to the outside world than in building walls.  They will suggest that in the new millennium our best security lies in reinforcing others around the world that share our values, rather than shutting ourselves off from them. They will suggest that national security is far broader than national defense, and they will argue that what is ultimately a conflict of ideas and ideals cannot be won by bombs and bullets alone, but must include commitments to human rights and democratic norms.

..................

I guess you would just be spewing bullshit...however, all of that can be changed. Wanting others to know the truth is a fine desire, knowing the truth yourself will lead to wisdom.

http://academic.shu.edu/commencement/highlights_2002/clark.html

[DoveTurnedHawk]

118. OUCH!

That hurt to watch, the smackdown was so good!

Go Donna!

DTH

[Clark Can WIN]

119. And the crowd goes wild for Donna!

Let me throw this quote from last nights speech in there too.

"The highest calling of the armed forces is
not to wage war, but to prevent war."

Isn't it a shame when people just spew shit out before they take the trouble of informing themselves first?

[robbedvoter]

121. Clark: The highest calling of the armed forces is not to wage war, but

, but to prevent war."
He said it last night in Knoxville - his lesson from serving. You only have to read.

[cosmicdot]

116. he's a regular on TV - milking maximum TV exposure

... while his financial statement (house) gets in order for official release (started distancing himself from Stephens Group last February) ... and, time to focus group those positions ... the package will soon be ready for delivery ...

"I’m in favor of the principle of affirmative action."

wow - heavy, man

I believe in the principle of equal opportunity ... and, will ___________________ what?

Many accuse others of using guilt through association ... well, seems the reversal is, also, possible .... more like projection through association ...

what will a candidate offer to do in the first 100 days?

He's a Rhodes Scholar ... so are many other people ... worldwide even!!!
http://politicalgraveyard.com/special/rhodes-scholars.html (just politicians)



Goodwill to his supporters, but imho he's a good ol'boy like any of the best of them. I certainly wouldn't associate myself with Jackson Stephens or Acxiom. There are many other ways to associate oneself out there in this world.

to each his/her own

i have fairly good intuition ... i'm not buying it ...

"level of fear within the ranks of the Taliban supporters for other candidates"

... I beg your pardon ... fear? Talibanesque?
puh-leeze ... those are flame baiting words ... oh, you silly titmouse - well, as long as it it's OK with truthout.org and your position there ... guess it's OK

if he runs, fine ... we'll deal with it

caveat emptor

[robbedvoter]

123. Oh! Horror! A democrat on TV talking about running against bush!

Paula Zahn: Which candidate will you hurt the most?
Clark: the pResident"
It's bad for us, indeed!

[LWolf]

120. I'll take his candidacy as a given,

since he seems to have announced that he will announce.

It will be interesting to see how a new stone affects the mix in the primary pond. Will the ripples change direction?

I believe all of you folks who tell me that he has strong appeal for the average american, and that he brings strengths to the mix. I sure want a good candidate to take *; I'll vote for whoever gets the nod in the general election. I think this election is ours to lose. We can win the white house with any of them. We want someone who will make a good, clean, honorable difference when the smoke clears.

I'm just plain not an average american, or liberal, or dem, or human, by any stretch of the imagination. What appeals to the many doesn't always move me.

Here's my difference: I don't live in fear, and never have. 9-11 did not spark even a moment of concern for me. For the victims and their families, yes. For the nation as a whole, no. I don't look to a strong man or leader or army to keep me safe. There's never been one around when I really needed it. I don't see military action as a way to solve a problem; if you have to fight, you've already failed at the greater goal. I don't want military leaders making the decisions for our country. I like church and state to stay separate. I also like the military and the executive branch to maintain a level of separation.

Clark will add some interesting spice to the mix when he announces that he's finally ready to make the announcement he's been announcing his intentions to announce all this time. But he doesn't really rock my boat.

[Clark Can WIN]

122. Please get to know Clarks positions on the Military

before you paint him with that brush. I'm just asking you to look with an open mind. From his speech last night as just one example,

"The highest calling of the armed forces is
not to wage war, but to prevent war."

[LWolf]

124. Good statement.

I'm not painting him with a brush. I believe you. He just can't be my personal choice, for the reasons given.

[Dover]

125. Will, WHO are the "Taliban Supporters" you refer to?......n/t

...

[WilliamPitt]

126. If you don't know, you haven't been paying attention

[Dover]

127. You....name-calling? Well I'm ROTFGLAT

Rolling on the floor giggling like a titmouse!