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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 06:51 PM
Original message
Before I endorse Clark I want to know this...
Does he favor sending more American troops into Iraq? This would be terrible policy and only invite more bloodshed and chaos. It's fine to say that our forces should be there as part of a truly international force, led by the UN, but pouring more US troops into the region will only worsen the problem.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. More AMERICAN Troops, No
He has been one of the strongest proponents of internationalizing the Iraq occupation, reconstruction and governance.

DTH
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. No...
he has been one of the most eloquent advocates of restoring our lost international standing and working with the UN and other partners to get help in Iraq.
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Vis Numar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. He has said there needs to be more US troops
but maybe he has changed his position.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. More International Troops
I'm not aware of any instance where he's called for more American troops.

I could be wrong, but I've obsessively followed most of his speaking engagements (www.digitalclark.com has tons), and I don't think I am wrong.

DTH
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. we DO need more U.S. troops in Iraq ...
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 07:01 PM by Pepperbelly
to relieve the ones already there so they can go home.

Otherwise, what Wesley advocates is Iraq for the Iraqis, let them have responsibility for running their own country. Internatioalization of force is needed to accomplish this.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. But....what's Clark's position on the Bush Economy? Jobs, Health Care,
Downsizing, Corporate Corruption, Saving Pension Funds, Social Security Eligability, Funding for Job Retraining, Nafta, GATT, WTO, Jobs going overseas to "Third Worlds," Environmental Protection, Kyoto Treaty, Drilling in Anwar, Drilling Off America's SeaShores,
Day Care, Right to Life, the Separation of Church and Politics in America, Urban Sprawl, Loss of Family Farms, Federal Inspectors for the Safety of our Food Supply, Agri-Business, Wind Power, Solar Power, our Dependence on Foreign Sources to fuel our Energy Needs, Superfund Cleanup, Tort Reform, Funding for Colleges, Rebuilding our Infrastructure: Road, Bridges, Schools, Public Transportation.......etc. etc....etc.

Where does Clark stand on these issues?
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Christ, Give It Some Time, Please
FWIW, he has stances on MANY of those issues, and I cannot find fault with any of them.

If you do some research, you will be able to find the answers yourself. I suggest:

www.meetclark.com/faq
www.draftwesleyclark.com/on_the_issues.htm
www.digitalclark.com (to hear many of his positions from his own mouth)

Also, there was an NPR radio report the other day that was compelling. Search on my name, I post about it (the title of my article is something about FAIR Trade and Job Outsourcing).

DTH
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. I was told
here on this board, that Clark in not affliated w/any of those web sites and that none of them are offical.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. I asked Clark Supporters for their research on his stand on these issues
He's not my candidate (I don't have a defined candidate but lean towards a couple).

I want to hear from Clark's supporters what he feels about these issues. Why do you all support his making a run for the Presidency.....Besides the fact that he's a General? I don't hear anthing else but that he will throw Chiimpy's "cod piece"back in his face, because Clark is a "General and a Democrat."

If he throws his "hat in" I hope to hear from his supporters who have been all over DU for months.....as to why I should support him. I'm Open......you just gotta give me something more than he's a "Military Foil to Shrub!"
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Plain and Simple: Why do you all Support Clark? Other than that he's a
General......and appeared to be "against the Iraq Invasion from what you all saw on CNN when he was the Pundit General for Hire on a Whore Network?

It's a valid criticism.......our other candidates have been out their with "track records" on where they stand on most of the issues I posted about.

Clark drafters have been all over DU for months recruiting....but I haven't heard why....other than that he was a Democratic leaning Pundit on CNN.........and a foil to Bush's Macho War Routine with the "cod piece" on the deck of the Lincoln.

Yeah....he seems nice in appearance to me....in a clip I saw today on CNN....but what else is there?:shrug:

What legislation has he supported.....what money has he donated to Democratic causes. What Democratic causes has he been involved with that are on the record from the State of Arkansas.

Has he been involved in any "liberal causes" that you all can Google for me. It's not my job to Google and post...it's yours.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. And...
if you've read any of the threads, you've been googled within an inch of your life with his positions on issues.

Don't like him? i don't really care. But willful ignorance after being shown again and again and again just becomes sort of obstinate arrogance.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Well, just give me a few points about where Clark stands on Domestic
Issues........Social Security Retirement Age, Health Care: Independent/Single Payer/National....Job Loss/Economy. NAFTA/GATT.....Trade Imbalance....Environment/Kyoto/Clean Air Standards/Fossil Fuel/Wind Solar???
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. This One's for KoKo
Social Security Retirement Age,

I'm not positive on this one, but I believe he supports maintaining the current level of benefits. He definitely believes in the concept of a social safety net, per the next question you raise.

Health Care: Independent/Single Payer/National

Per DWC, Clark is a strong supporter of a social safety net, including effective and well-supported systems of education and health care:

"I grew up in an armed forces that treated everyone as a valued member of the team. Everyone got healthcare, and the army cared about the education of everyone's family members. It wasn't the attitude that you find in some places, where people are fending for themselves and the safety net doesn't work." (Source: Waging Modern War)

....Job Loss/Economy.

“At home, we've got a jobless recovery. We've lost 2.6 million jobs since this administration took office. Just to maintain the same level of employment in America, we have to create about 1.3 million jobs a year...So, the statistical unemployment rate, it doesn't really address what the problem is that Americans are feeling out there. There are millions of people who aren't in the labor force. There are other people who are employed, but they're underemployed in terms of their skills. We've got problems.” (Source: CNN)

“We are shedding jobs day after day in this country because you can hire an engineer in Eastern Europe for what you pay for an engineer’s healthcare costs in America. And companies that can’t raise revenues are companies that are cutting expenses by outsourcing jobs. In order to create jobs, we don’t want to change our labor market. What we want to change is the environment in which businesses can grow. We want small businesses to have opportunities for job creation for growth, for investment, for development. We want to strengthen the ability of this country to create jobs. That’s through the capital markets. It’s through tax incentives where necessary.” (SOURCE: NDN Speech)

”We have to have an environment in here so that people can find meaningful, satisfying, and remunerative work in their lives. Right now, we are in a jobless recovery. We’d like to fix that. But we have to fix it through the creation of jobs and that is primarily done by small business. We have to create the best possible environment for small businesses to get started, and meaningful businesses, and businesses that can grow, businesses that use our skilled workforce, our intellectual capital and develop it because that’s the key to richness as a nation in the future...I’ll tell you that the other thing…is that we have a very high proportion of dual wage earning families in America. And I worry about this in a way because I think it’s great if that’s what the people want to do. But I think that one of the real burdens we are facing in America is that the actual real wages have not gone up in this country for ordinary men and women for thirty years.” (SOURCE: Sound Off With Sasha)

“<The Bush tax changes> were not efficient in terms of stimulating the kind of demand we need to move the economy back into a recovery mode, a strong recovery and a recovery that provides jobs.” (Source: Meet The Press)

“The tax cuts weren’t fair… the people that need the money and deserve the money are the people who are paying less, not the people who are paying more. I thought this country was founded on a principle of progressive taxation. In other words, it’s not only that the more you make, the more you give, but proportionately more because when you don’t have very much money, you need to spend it on the necessities of life. When you have more money, you have room for the luxuries and you should—one of the luxuries and one of the privileges we enjoy is living in this great country.” (Source: Meet The Press)

“I mean, you look at the long-run health of the country and the size of the deficit that we’ve incurred and a substantial part of that deficit is result of the tax cuts. You have to ask: “Is this wise, long-run policy?” I think the answer is no.” (Source: Meet The Press)

NAFTA/GATT.....Trade Imbalance....

He is pro-FAIR trade, not "free" trade, and he is very concerned about NAFTA, the trade imbalance and outsourcing jobs overseas. Please listen to this radio appearance on NPR, minutes 27 through 31:

http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2003/09/20030908_b_main.asp

Environment/Kyoto/Clean Air Standards/Fossil Fuel/Wind Solar???

“As you look at where we are in this country, a hundred years from now, none of us, probably, will be here. There may be some exceptions in the back of the room. I can’t see whose back there. And medical science is wonderful. But basically, a hundred years out you have to think of the environment and your legal, constitutional institutions. And if you’re going to work the environment and those institutions, that work has to start today. Because, it takes a hundred years to work effectively and protect the great gifts we’ve been given in this country. A hundred years from now, it’s going to be very important that we make America a beautiful, safe land. We want our grandchildren to really love it here. We want people from all over the world to come here. We want it to be a natural, a national park, a treasure, all over the world. We can do that but we have to start now.” (Source: NDN Speech)

“Our environment, well I think the argument should be about over. Yes, human beings do affect the environment and all you have to do is fly along the Andes and look at the disappearing glaciers down there and you recognize that there is something called global warming and it’s just getting started as China and India modernize. Our health is subject to influences from abroad, AIDS certainly, but also West Nile disease, and who knows what else is coming?” (SOURCE: America at the Crossroads)

“I am not one of those people who will rule out nuclear energy as a contributor to dealing with the energy problem. We’ve just got lots of things we need to do on energy conservation and energy generation, and especially renewable energy resources. The means are out there not to take a much greater percentage of our energy needs from the sun, from solar, and from wind, and even from wave action. And I would hope that we would move ahead in those areas much more rapidly than we have been.” (SOURCE: Sound Off With Sasha)

Clark is also closely affiliated with an alternative energy company, WaveCrest.

DTH
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. but... but... but...
don't you know it's unfair to answer an attack with actual information?

And didn't you know that you can't believe a thing he's said or done because he has NO positions and NO record?

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Look
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 07:42 PM by DoveTurnedHawk
Can you understand that perhaps it's frustrating to certain of us Clark supporters to see a question like this coming from you, especially when -- from our view -- we have answered it many, many, many times, to the point of it being ad nauseam? I don't know about some of the others, but I would prefer to spend my time on other, more fruitful endeavors.

I am absolutely positive that people have tried to answer this question for you. You have been active in Clark threads, which have taken this board by storm, for well over a month, IIRC. Yet you choose not to credit the answers you receive, for whatever reason.

Fine. That's completely up to you. I would simply ask that you do your duty as an informed citizen and do your best to learn about the candidates -- and I'm talking about learning from reasonable, objective sources, not screwball stuff like the zpub BS or the other sites with axes to grind -- before you cast your vote in the primary and the general election.

No one expects you to jump onto the Clark bandwagon. I would hope, however, that you'd at least give him a fair look. Because based on my experiences with you in these Clark threads, I don't really believe that you have, yet.

DTH
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Dove........I'm only asking for a one paragraph summary, here......I've
never gotten it....If I had.....I wouldn't still be asking.....:-)'s Peace to you...

Perhaps there are no answers.........that you can provide........and so you attack the asker.....or tell the asker and seeker to go find their own view of your candidate.......because you don't have the time to bother.

If you had answered the question........no one would still be curious......
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. OK, Then PLEASE Check Back on This Thread
I will do my best, but I don't have time at the immediate moment.

DTH
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. i dunno...
tell me exactly where all the other candidates stand on those issues. I doubt you can. What's Edwards' published position on Urban Sprawl? What's Carol Moseley-Braun's published position on Federal Inspectors for the Safety of our Food Supply? What has Graham published on all those issues?

Clark has expressed his views on a variety of issues already. Pro-internationalist, anti-war, pro-choice, pro-environment. Pro separation of church and state.

When he announces, or shortly thereafter, I expect he'll have published positions on many of the issues you cite. In the meantime, his public statements on such issues have all been rather progressive.
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Cremaster Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. We do need to finish what we started, whether you agree with it or not
EOM
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. We started getting our troops killed
should we finish that by getting them all killed?
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diplomats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Could you elaborate?
eom
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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. Clark is in favor
of getting more of your money into the hands of defense corporations.
If soldiers live or die it is none of his concern.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. And
do you have a single piece of evidence to back up that assertion?

Or did it come right out of your ass?
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I Vote for "Right Out of His/Her Ass"
I don't know for sure, however, since the person is on my Ignore list.

I love BillyBunter's "Seven Dwarves" line. As coincidence has it, my Ignore list has seven names on it as well.

DTH
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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. how many times
are you going to announce who you put on ignore?
It doesn't change the truth about Clark.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Dontcha know?
It is the mature way to debate. It's kinda like talking to yourself.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. well
I have no one on ignore.

I try to back up my assertions with evidence. It's the best way to debate, dontcha know.

I'm simply asking Imhotep to provide ANY evidence for his assertion. It's not unfair.
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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. the same "evidence"
that you zealots have.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. no, not exactly the same evidence.
We've provided many links showing Clark's stated positions on issues. The issue YOU cited has no evidence that I've seen to back it up. You can change my mind, though, by actually providing some.

Odd, isn't it, that when he retired, he didn't join a military contractor. He didn't become a lobbyist for these companies. What did he do?

He became an investment banker AND founded a company researching alternative fuels.

And a zealot is one who believes things with no logical or factual basis for believing them. It seems you fit that definition here a lot more than the Clark supporters.
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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. the difference
is you project qualities onto him that don't exist.
Don't pat yourself on the back pretending to be a neutral objective fact finder, because it is obvious to everyone how pathetically emotional Clark zaelots are.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Yes...
and I see your cool, calculated indifference shining through.

BTW... where's your evidence for your assertion?
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. pot, meet kettle ...
:D

Hard to believe that you used that term.

You?

:wow:
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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. find a new cliche
And I have no problem being a called a zealot for the cause of progress, not a partisan.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
14. FWIW
Clark has said the following consistently:

We need to get our hand off the grip by internationizing the force.

Also, because of rotation for every soldier in the field you need one trained and ready to relieve someone, one in training, and one on R & R. (I think I got that correct) Since we are currently unable to sustain this basic rotation, increasing the numbers cannot be done. As Zini said: we are fighting a 12 division war with a 10 division Army.

He said we need more than an Iraqi face on the government there, we need an Iraqi government.

That said, we don't know where this death spiral will be by 2004. Personally, I'd just as soon throw the junta out now, but realistically the situation may grow worse before they are gone. Whoever enters the WH in 2004 will assume the responsiblity for an Iraq that looks very different than it does today. Any planning and policy must fit that situation.

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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
24. He
has recenlty called for help from the UN, but it's unclear if that precludes more US troops.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/25/1061663733455.html?from=storyrhs
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
25. Clark has been advising Dean on foreign policy and Dean is not in favor
of sending more U.S. troops. Dean is in favor of bringing in U.N. troops, instead.

My expectation is that Clark's foreign policy proposals will be similar to Dean's proposals on his campaign website:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_foreign_iraq
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Well, see my posts above! Maybe Dean is advising Clark, Domestically!
If so, put them in the pot....stir mix in some salt and boil for half an hour...then you have a ........???
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