Kerry's Four-Month Tour

[OrdinaryTa]

Healthy, able-bodied John Kerry pulled strings to get out of Vietnam after only four months. He beat the system all right, but it's not heroic.

At the same time in their tours that other Americans still had eight months to go, Kerry was gone from Vietnam, stationed in New York City as an admiral's aide. Nice work if you have the connections to get it.

[TAH6988]

1. Isn't that after he served a full

12-month tour in country?

[OrdinaryTa]

Kerry's OTHER Tour

Kerry spent six months aboard a carrier tender, far from any danger. He might as well have been sailing in the Gulf of Mexico.

[liberalnurse]

50. This thinking is way out of line.....If you did not serve in Viet Nam

then you have absolutely no reason to judge this man. I lost four childhood friends to that war, from the age of 18 to 21.

[OrdinaryTa]

75. Questions That Won't Go Away

The questions about Kerry's actual war record were raised in his Senate re-election campaign against Weld. They certainly won't go away in the presidential election, especially if we've got an army in the field.

By appearances alone, Kerry seems to have exploited a loophole to get out of combat. There's nothing heroic about this. It's time for Kerry to allow the press to examine the medical documentation. There might be a good reason why he has refused.

[Patriot_Spear]

79. ...and who's asking the questions?

This Sunday on NBC's Meet the Press: Karl Rove on John Kerry's Military Record

Karl Rove: "Look Tim, here's even a Democrat named Ordinary Ta who doubts Kerry's service record..."

Tim Russert:" That's good enough for me, Karl..."

Karl Rove: "And he definately has no ulterior motive or agenda in saying these things, none at all."

Tim Russert:" That's good enough for me, Karl..."


"With friends like these..."

[OrdinaryTa]

109. Looking Forward To It

Maybe I'll get my TV fixed in time for the broadcast.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

204. Weld raised it? You admit you are a vessel for right wing propaganda?

Thanks for clarifying that.

[OrdinaryTa]

206. Exploiting a Technicality

Weld's people questioned whether Kerry's silver star was based on a war crime. I mentioned this only to establish that the right wing is prepared to go after Kerry on his war record. Curiously, Kerry wasn't vulnerable at the time for having sought an early return from combat based on some technicality. Voters have since become sophisticated about this issue because we now have an army in the field. People understand what an early release from combat is all about.

It turns out that Kerry's trivial injuries may have been from friendly fire, making his early release from combat an even harder sell. The Navy was enforcing "free fire zones" giving Lt. Kerry discretion over which targets to engage. Kerry's commanding officer acknowledges that the fragments came from M-40 grenades, issued by the Navy. This raises the possibility that Kerry's purple hearts came from injuries suffered during an engagement not with the Vietcong but with Vietnamese civilians.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

207. LOL...Looks to me like you are the one exploiting the technicality...

again...you are using right wing propaganda raised during his last campaign in order to smear and assassinate his character. You cannot post links beyond a Globe article because to do so you would have to reveal your right wing sources that are the raison d'etre for this smear campaign.

Kerry might have been hit by friendly fire according to you...so apparently that is less lethal than Viet Cong fire...yeah right...tell that to "Armless Ali"

Pfffffft

[Name removed]

210. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

214. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

98. that's a crock

you cannot limit opinions, criticism or freedom of speech to only those who served.

[alarimer]

161. I agree

These people are way off base. I guess they like Dean so much they will cut down any other candidate. Where was Dean anyway back then??

[Ernesto]

195. Try Vietnam not Viet Nam

I know I lived through it...many did not.

[TahitiNut]

223. Clues: Việt Nam

http://vietnamnews.vnagency.com.vn/
Or (for example):

(VietNamNet) - Ban quản lý lao động Việt Nam tại Malaysia vừa thông báo, gần đây một số lao động Việt Nam làm việc trong nhà máy đồ mộc trang thiết bị nội thất văn phòng Muar Johor (Kesang, Malaysia) đã tổ chức đình công. Sau khi được các bộ phận liên quan của cả Việt Nam lẫn Malaysia thuyết phục, các lao động này không những không nghe mà còn kéo đến trước trụ sở Đại sứ quán Việt Nam ''ăn vạ'', đòi được về nước trước thời hạn.

Isn't it strange that 'ARVN' wasn't 'ARV'? (Gee, think of all the paper and ink that'd save.) I suppose it was Vietcong, too? :eyes:

[RobertSeattle]

2. I don't know all the facts, but I do know

That's four more months than Bush, Cheney, Tom Delay, Wolfowitz, Karl Rove, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, etc, etc, etc. aka the Chickenhawks.

[phillybri]

3. The guy served two tours....

Give me a friggin break....

[TLM]

81. Sorry but this bugs me...two tours is two years...

not 6 months on a ship, and 4 months in country... which is in fact 2 months short of ONE tour.

Lying about his service record is an insult to vets, just as it was an insult for Kerry to lie about throwing his medals.

[bearfartinthewoods]

100. not if there are still 12 months in a year.......

[clar]

4. Grrrrr

If you're going to make scurrilous accusations, don't you think you should provide a link?

Pure unadulterated and particularly offensive flamebait.

[kentuck]

5. Sometimes you get a pass when you get three Purple Hearts...

At least, that was what I had heard...??

[TAH6988]

11. And a Silver Star and a Bronze Star N/T

[Ernesto]

200. For all you civillian geniuses

My last 10 months in the USMC were spent processing literally thousnds of Marines who were on their way to Vietnam. I had access to their record books & often checked to see if they were qualified to wear the ribbons on their uniforms (wearing un-earned medals means immediate court martial in the USMC)........... The bottom line is that out of the thousands of guys I saw ONE Congressional Medal of Honor & FIVE Silver Stars. Folks, you have got to do some very serious shit to get a Silver Star. Still being alive, well that's icing on the cake. Do Not take these decorations lightly..... On the other hand, it was USMC common knowledge that Lt. Charles Robb (LBJ's son inlaw) was not allowed to be endangered in anyway durring his tour in Vietnam.

[blm]

205. Thanks, Ernesto...

for those of us who respect greatly all who serve with integrity.

[ModerateMiddle]

59. that's correct

Part of the Navy's rules or code or something. Once you've been wounded 3 times, you can request to be reassigned. That's what Kerry did.

From Slate's article:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087214/

Reality check: On March 17, 1969, Kerry's superior officer passed along a request from Kerry to be reassigned "as a personal aide in Boston, New York, or Wash., D.C. area." The basis for this request was a rule that allowed any Navy officer with three wounds to seek reassignment "regardless of the nature of the wounds." Kerry had indeed received three wounds, but all were minor (they had caused him to miss only two days of service), and the third was on March 13, 1969, just four days before his transfer request was forwarded. In sum, he got out as soon as he could. The Boston Globe noted that "none of wounds was disabling" and that he got his transfer "six months before his combat tour was slated to end." According to the Globe, "Kerry declined … to sign a waiver authorizing the release of military documents that are covered under the Privacy Act and that might shed more light on the extent of the treatment Kerry needed as a result of the wounds."

Still, Kerry is the only 2004 presidential candidate who fought in Vietnam. And before leaving, he made sure his crew members were also reassigned to safer jobs.

[TLM]

87. Hrmmmm almost sounds like a payoff...

"And before leaving, he made sure his crew members were also reassigned to safer jobs."

Keep your mouth shut and you won;t have to go on another shit detail.

[OrdinaryTa]

118. Junior Officer

he made sure his crew members were also reassigned to safer jobs

Where does a junior officer get the kind of clout required to do a thing like this? Kerry wasn't even regular Navy, he was a reserve officer. When you connect this unlikely event with Kerry's transfer to New York City, it suggests the intervention of somebody higher up the chain of command.

It would not be in the Navy's interest to replace an entire crew all at once. The Navy isn't known for sentimentality. Why would they do something so irregular?

[Ernesto]

201. Medals don't impress you?

Try to earn one, YOU might live to wear it. I doubt it: war is no F**KIN' picnic.

[seventhson]

226. HOW MUCH FARKING PULL do you have to have to get your WHOLE CREW

reassigned to safety because you got three purple hearts and are shipping out???

I hadn't thought about this before.

Kerry CLEARLY did this for a reason.

But how much PULL must one have to get one's whole crew reassigned to safety.

I MEAN JESUS folks!!!

Kerry had PERKS for some reason.

Remember the Harriman-Skull connection. Wasn't Harriman a big Navy dude?

What about Zumwalt who pulled the strings for Kerry?

I am off to google this.

On Edit: Nothing much on Zumwalt who , while he was top intelligence under Nixon (???), seems pretty hard working. He developed the Napalm/Agent Orange (?) program which may have killed his son who was another skipboat chief like Kerry.

Zumwalt would have done what he was told by his commanders, including Nixon. If Kerry was plugged into the "system" of spooky perks then Nixon (another BFEEer) might have okayed this perk.

Next up: Harriman

[TLM]

84. Yeah 3 purple hearts in the span of like 2 months.

and even Kerry says only one of those injuries was bad enough to keep him off duty for two days.

I thought purple hearts were for guys who got shot and got arms blown off... but Kerry seems to get them for stubbing his toe.

[TAH6988]

88. You thought wrong

PHs are given to military person for ANY wound suffered as a result of contact with an enemy.

[TLM]

93. Yeah I know that now.... but that doesn't seem right.

to give the same medal to a guy who got his legs blown off as the guy who sliped in the boat and bumped his shin.

[blm]

146. Those injuries didn't keep Kerry down because he is TOUGH.

And you'll find out the hard way exactly how tough a customer he is in due time.

[OrdinaryTa]

203. Shooting At Farmers

Kerry's trivial injuries may have come from being hit by fragments of M-40 grenades thrown by members of his own crew. If these were friendly fire injuries, it makes the award of the purple heart even more questionable. True, they occurred during engagements with the enemy, but at the time, the Navy was enforcing "free fire zones" - meaning that whoever they shot at was automatically considered the enemy. This raises the possibility that Kerry got a purple heart for being hit by friendly fire initiated by the Navy while shooting not at the Viet Cong, but at Vietnamese farmers.

"There were an awful lot of Purple Hearts -- from shrapnel, some of those might have been M-40 grenades," said Elliott, Kerry's commanding officer. "The Purple Hearts were coming down in boxes. Kerry, he had three Purple Hearts. None of them took him off duty. Not to belittle it, that was more the rule than the exception."

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

[sangh0]

6. OT continues to repeat lies

even though he's been informed of the 12 months Kerry had served in VN before the 4 months OT likes to obsess over.

[OrdinaryTa]

12. Kerry's Earlier "Tour"

Kerry's earlier "tour" wasn't a tour at all, it was six months aboard a carrier tender, far from any danger. Kerry has a history of exploiting technicalities. It's really a s-t-r-e-t-c-h to say that Kerry's earlier duty even faintly resembled combat.

Kerry simply is not trustworthy. Everywhere you look, you find things that aren't quite what they seem.

[molly]

17. Really?

a lifetime of service is what I see -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=262154

[sangh0]

25. More lies to cover-up the 1st lie

and like the first lie, not one cite or fact to back it up.

Note: Even in times of peace, which it was NOT when Kerry served, serving on a tender is dangerous.

[ModerateMiddle]

60. Your hatred of a patriot

is disgusting.

[TLM]

92. I don't hate him... I just don't like guys who got special treatment

in nam to try and act like they are war heros.


Kerry acting like a major two tour combat vet is like Bush struting around like a fighter pilot.... it is bullshit. He was in country for all of 4 months. That's not two tours.... that's not even half of one tour.


But hey if Kerry would release his service records, it would clear this all right up. But then I suspect he doesn;t want some of the details in his records to make it out... like what injuries he got his 3 purple hearts for in side of 3 months to get his transfer.

[SharonAnn]

110. Then you should do everything you can to stop Bush -

He, his friends, his family ALWAYS get special treatment! And we all pay for it.

[TLM]

132. I agree, and I will... but that doesn't mean Kerry gets a pass

just because Bush is worse.

[AWD]

7. Any links or proof???

As an avid Dean supporter who watches his candidate get beat up a lot, you'd BETTER start showing a little proof of this. Because this is the fuel that keeps the fires of candidate-bashing going.

Also, explain how you get 3 Purple Hearts in 4 months.

[TAH6988]

16. I'm

much more impressed with the Silver Star and the Bronze Star than the three Purple Hearts. I know a guy who got a Purple Heart from getting cut by a fan. I kid you not. He was an airman stationed at Tahn Son Nhut (sp?). Their hootch came under enemy mortar fire and in his haste to get out, he ran into a fan. He got cut up, by the fan, and since his injuries were the result of enemy fire (no enemy fire, no runing into the fan), he was awarded a Purple Heart. He keeps it in a box under his bed.

[OrdinaryTa]

19. Three Purple Hearts

explain how you get 3 Purple Hearts in 4 months

The route to an easy purple heart is to be part of a unit that hands 'em out promiscuously. That seems to have been the case with Kerry's unit because he was there only four months and collected three purple hearts. Because Kerry's "wounds" didn't make him unfit for duty, how serious could they have been?

Kerry used his cheapo purple hearts to get out of combat a full eight months before the end of his tour. And Kerry was an officer! The word to describe behavior like that is chickenshit.

[TAH6988]

23. Doesn't matter how serious the wound is

If he was wounded, he gets a purple heart. BTW, what does your rack of Awards and Decs look like? Got any MSMs or Air Medals of your own?

[OrdinaryTa]

34. Serious Wounds

Doesn't matter how serious the wound is

Oh, I disagree. Kerry was assigned to a unit that handed out purple hearts for trivial injuries. Never unfit for duty, Kerry collected three cheapo's and used them as his ticket out of country. What Kerry did was legal, but it's chickenshit.

[TAH6988]

38. It doesn't matter if YOU disagree

you are not the approval authority for purple hearts. A combat related wound is reocognized with the "awarding" of a PH. Nowhere does it say how severe the wound must be. I'm still waiting to hear what your rack of ribbons and medals looks like.

[TLM]

96. How does his lack of metals change the fact that Kerry...

pulled a chickenshit ploy to get out of vietnam by gettign purple hearts for inconsequential injuries.


If he had a metal of honor, would that change the fact that what Kerry did was bullshit?


Why can't you address Kerry, instead of attacking his critic?

[sfecap]

33. Whoa.

The route to an easy purple heart is to be part of a unit that hands 'em out promiscuously.

Bullshit.

The route to a Purple Heart is also to get your ass shot.

You want to accuse people of being "chickenshit"....why don't you start with AWOLbush?

Don't bash John Kerry's military record unless you are willing to post irrefutable proof here that he did somthing dishonorable.

He's not my choice but this is way over the top...

[OrdinaryTa]

46. Kerry Was Not Shot

Kerry wasn't shot, he wasn't even unfit for duty. Purple hearts are intended to honor the wounded, and Kerry's wounds were trivial. Awarding three purple hearts for trivial injuries lowers the value of the purple heart, but Kerry went even farther. He used these cheapened purple hearts to get out of combat! That's total chickenshit.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OrdinaryTa]

51. Exploiting Loopholes

What Kerry did was perfectly legal - no question about that! But exploiting a loophole to get out of combat is chickenshit.

There's no rule book that spells out what's chickenshit and what's not. When a healthy, able-bodied officer cuts his tour short because of trivial "wounds", that's not heroism.

[TAH6988]

53. What loophole?

Again, REFM, where are your ribbons and medals? Did you also "duck" service In Vietnam?

[TLM]

120. Again how does Kerry's critic's having metals or not make any difference

in Kerry's service record?


And if Kerry's service record is so heroic, why won't he release it?

[TLM]

117. It is not his service record that's the problem....

it is the fact he is now trying to make it out to be more than it was.

People are running around saying this guy was a two tour combat vet... when he spent only 4 months in country, in which time he racked up 3 purple hearts for injuries that did not even render him unfit for duty... IOW bumps and scrapes.

It is an insult to the men who died in that jungle, like Dean's brother, for Kerry to be struting around like W in that flight suit and making his service more than it was for the political boost.

Yeah Kerry was in country, and for that he does deserve some props... but he wasn't some huge war hero anymore than W was a top gun fighter pilot.

[FredScuttle]

191. "deserves some props"????

The man risked his life for this country...I think he deserves a little more than your sarcasm

[ModerateMiddle]

63. Where did you serve? (nt)

[bearfartinthewoods]

108. why do you ask?

this bugs the piss out of me. i couldn't serve because one of my legs is shorter than the other since a kidhood accident. does that mean i lost my freedom of speech?

[TLM]

125. Exactly... I get sick of this "you did not serve so you don't get a say"

excuse to avoid addressing real questions about Kerry's real record vs the hype.

[maveric]

182. He won a Silver and a Bronze Star.

You werent there for one and you are basing your opinion on 2nd hand info.

He won 2 medals for valor in combat, and they dont just "hand 'em out promiscuously".

Do the extent of the wounds really measure heroism?

C'Mon Ta!

[OrdinaryTa]

213. Honest John

Honest John Kerry was certainly awarded three purple hearts, no doubt about it! And his commanding officer didn't balk a bit about transferring him out of country after only four months. He sure didn't! And if he did, he'd admit it.

I love the innocent attitudes on display here. Kerry wouldn't lie to us! John wouldn't do that.

Ya fell off a turnip truck.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stuckinthebush]

9. So, who's your horse in this race?

Clearly someone who needs you to attack Kerry.

For the 1000th time - cut this sh*t out DUers! It doesn't help us in our ultimate goal of getting GW out!

[bearfartinthewoods]

104. ignoring issues related to candidates does NOT help us

sure...you may be able to shut up people here who ask the inconvenient questions but good luck shutting up rove.

if there is something to tell, something that clouds the war hero image that some are trying to push, i have the right to know it now.
well, maybe not a legal right but a moral right to have the facts on the table BEFORE we vote for our nominee.

NO SURPRISES...that's all i want. it just has to be that way for us to make an informed choice. btw....unless Gore comes in or Edwards catches fire, Kerry is my guy but i'm not ready to commit or to vote until i know the damn dirty laundry.

we can't afford to ignore this because rove sure as hell won't.

[Racenut20]

10. 3 Purple ones sent you home

Didn't really want to go home that bad.

[OrdinaryTa]

48. It Was Not Automatic

Kerry had to apply to get out of combat; it wasn't automatic. And the approval wasn't automatic either. Kerry ended up with a cushy job as an admiral's aide in New York City.

Healthy, able-bodied John Kerry exploited a loophole to get himself out of danger. It's chickenshit.

[XanaDUer]

13. Yawn.

:boring:

[AWD]

36. Yawn

[indigo32]

14. We've already heard this...

give it a rest. It's ridiculous.

[Brian Sweat]

15. From what I understand, Kerry served on complete tour and then

served four months of a second voluntary tour. During this time, he was wounded three times. Only a dishonest POS would suggest that Kerry had done anything that resembled avoiding service.

[OrdinaryTa]

27. Avoiding Service

Kerry didn't pull a complete tour his first time around. He spent six months aboard a carrier tender, and was not in danger at any time. He might as well have been sailing in the Gulf of Mexico.

Kerry's "wounds" are suspect. Although he got three purple hearts, he wasn't unfit for duty, so how serious could his injuries have been? Apparently he collected purple hearts like boxtops and cashed them in.

How likely is it that the Navy just happened to approve Kerry's transfer to New York City after only four months in Vietnam? It certainly looks like he pulled strings!

[FredScuttle]

192. Questioning YOUR service

is a relevant point, because each one of your assertations (with no links to hard evidence, BTW) implies that you know what "danger" really was in service then. Otherwise, how can you state that, in his 1st tour, he "was not in danger at any time"? Were you there with him? Do you have any personal experiences of tranquil times aboard the carrier with Kerry that backs up your ridiculous statement?

I'm supporting Dean, but calling a man who risked his life for his country a "chickenshit" is beyond the pale.

[sfecap]

18. I'm not a Kerry supporter,

...but this is grossly unfair to him.

He served, he was wounded, he did his time in Nam.

Whether he was there four months or four years, he should be given credit for wearing the uniform and serving his country.

Please knock this shit off. It serves no purpose.

If you want to criticize his voting record, or his policies, fine. But this is simply inappropriate.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

129. I agree he should get credit... just not more than he earned

and I'm sorry but serving 4 months in country then trying to pass yourself off as a two combat tour vet is an insult to the guys who actualy spent two fucking years getting shot at in that jungle.

IMHO Kerry pulling strings to get out of nam after 4 months of a 1 year tour is only slightly more honorable than Bush pulling strings to get into the TANG.

And it is not getting out of nam by pulling strings that I have a problem with... it is trying to pose as a war hero afterwards for political effect.

You get one or the other... either you are a war hero who fought his ass off and did his time, or you were against the war and did whatever you could to get out.

I'm not buying this pulled strings to get out AND you're a war hero crap.

[displacedtexan]

20. try a simple google: john kerry and vietnam

A graduate of Yale University, John Kerry entered the Navy after graduation, becoming a Swift Boat officer, serving on a gunboat in the Mekong Delta in Vietnam. He received a Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat.

my high school graduating class lost almost 1/3 of the boys. reunions aren't fun. be sure you check your facts; many of us still cringe when we hear, "we interrupt this broadcast for a special report..."

besides, flaming kerry's war tour(s) is the same as bashing gore for having the nerve to VOLUNTEER to go to vietnam.

hhhhhmmmmmm... who didn't go?

[ModerateMiddle]

68. According to the *person* who posted this thread

One would have to die to prove their patriotism.

It's not just pathetic, it's disgusting.

[OrdinaryTa]

83. Proving Patriotism

What's at issue here is whether Kerry used not-quite-earned purple hearts as a cheap way to get out of combat. We can hardly blame him for doing that! He saw the opportunity and he took it.

However, the guy is running for president claiming to be a war hero. But cutting his combat tour short because of a technicality isn't heroic at all, it's chickenshit. And he didn't cut it short by a couple of weeks, he cut it short by eight months. Some hero that is.

[bearfartinthewoods]

112. i don't speak for the poster

but for me, i'm NOT questioning his patriotism. i just have this awful vision of the news features that tell this stuff a year from now. i just wish he and his supporter would just stick with 'served in Vietnam'. that's good enough to trump bush.

but when they start with the war hero and the lisating of the medals....shit...i can just hear rush now, telling people that he shot a half naked unarmed kid in the back to earn one of them.

drop the hero and the medals line and stick with the service or else throw the whole deal on the table, including the nature of the wounds before this gets out of hand.

[ModerateMiddle]

219. "shot a half naked unarmed kid"

Unarmed? The guy he chased into the jungle and killed had been shooting at them with a grenade launcher.

[bearfartinthewoods]

221. an unloaded weapon is useless and makes one unarmed.

i'm showing how rush and the rest will handle it. they don't quibble over the fine points, in my experience.

[July]

21. "pulled strings"?

What is your evidence for this?

The previous thread on this topic provided a LINK that cited the guy who approved Kerry's request; his view was that it was handled in the normal manner.

So, what strings are you talking about?

[seventhson]

24. Pretty definitive article on this subject

Altho the length of time on his Carrier tender was reported in another post as six months (how much of that was actually 'near" Nam is another question). His time in-country WAS less than four months.

That is one reason his early "out" is considered suspicious by many of us and why we want DETAILS on his purple hearts (two of which did not even get him any recuperation time so they MUST have been minor. Kerry says he was out two days with the other injury. But were they war wounds (one was allegedly shrapnel) or noncomabt related injuries?

I want to know this because if he got "special" treatment it is an insult to veterans everywhere -- including three of my brothers who are Vietnan era vets.

His approximately ten months or so only really counts as "two tours" because he came home in between his 6 month assignment to the carrier and his deployment for four months. Technically I think the two tour thing is bogus and depends on the parsing and technical meaning of the terms.

Most vets will tell you a tour was 365 days in the Nam. In Country.

And, again, that is why those of us who are critical think he got real special treatment and may have dishonored all Vietnam vets by making claims which are exaggerated or are outright lies.

I await the evidence though on the purple hearts and bronze star. So far the details are not, as far as I know, available.

They should be so we can get some answers about this.

Here is a GOOD article which hits severtal of the Kerry issues I have (and says some good things too, I guess):


http://www.boston.com/globe/specialreports/1996/oct/senate/jk106.htm

[sangh0]

26. Link please

It's hard to take it on your authority when you've already proven yourself lacking in credibility by misportraying the stock Heinz owns as belonging to Kerry

[TAH6988]

31. "Most vets will tell you a tour was 365 days in the Nam. In Country."

So none of the Navy guys off the coast or the Buff pilots flying from Guam, or the F-4 and F-105 guys from Thailand had VN tours, huh?

[seventhson]

52. I would not say that

My broither was on a minesweep and he never went ashore, but he could hear the shelling and see the coast.

But was that "In Country" Not really. Maybe, I guess. I think it depends on how far you were from the action.

A close friend of mine was on a carrier and volunteered to help recover a jet that had been shot down so he could try to buy blacxk market comnbat boots (from dead soldiers - Bad Karma) in some village. He was a signalman on the deck but wanted combat boots for the riots (he was on the Kitty Hawk).

H got in a firefight and had to kill a girl the age of his 14 year old sister.

But the way he tells it life on the ship was NOT the same as being "in country". His firfight weas the real deal.

Kerry's tour, if accurately depicted, was short and violent.

A lot shorter than many who did a full tour or two on the ground in the trenches.

I trhink it is telling that Kerry wanted a "safe assignment" and ended up getting thrust by circumstanes into the fray.

But it was war and some people actually do perform bravely in combat. Even rich boys. So I reserve judgment on his courage. He may well have been brave or crazy or just a lunatic trying to win some quick medals to bolster his political career.

When he was faced with a wounded teenager in a loin cloth and a rocket launcher did he kill him or shoot him courageously or was he motivated by his desire for getting credit for "the kill" and the capture of the weapon. Is it possible the boy was alreadt dead?

Just asking.

I think they are fair questions if this man has a chance of becoming our next president.

He thought it would be a simple asignment

[sangh0]

57. More deceit

But was that "In Country" Not really. Maybe, I guess. I think it depends on how far you were from the action.

You were called out because you said that a "tour" is 365 days "in country", a position that even you don't defend.

I trhink it is telling that Kerry wanted a "safe assignment" and ended up getting thrust by circumstanes into the fray.

And I think it was telling how Kerry behaved once he was in danger. Wanting a safe assignment tells us he, like most other servicemembers, did not want to die. His bravery UNDER FIRE tells us how he put his personal desires behind his sense of duty to the nation and his fellow sailors.

When he was faced with a wounded teenager in a loin cloth and a rocket launcher did he kill him or shoot him courageously or was he motivated by his desire for getting credit for "the kill" and the capture of the weapon. Is it possible the boy was alreadt dead?

Just asking

Yeah, right! "Just asking". I mean, it's not like you have any personal interest in the matter, right? You're not biased in any way.

[OrdinaryTa]

69. Kerry's Bravery Under Fire

You don't know what actually happened, and neither do I. The citations for valor awards are boilerplate; they all say more or less the same thing. Kerry's silver star citation says that he attacked a numerically superior force, but in fact Kerry ran after a teenager in a loin cloth. And this statement comes from friendly witnesses! It's possible that the teenager in question was unarmed, already wounded, and running away. Big difference.

I'm questioning only whether Kerry's purple hearts are in keeping with the intent of the award. There's no doubt that he was awarded them, but since they didn't render him unfit for duty, they don't sound very serious. That's not what George Washington had in mind.

[sangh0]

72. Speak for yourself

I know what happened. You don't

in fact Kerry ran after a teenager in a loin cloth.

Gee, you left out some details, like how the "teenager" was also an "enemy soldier" who was carrying a loaded weapon.

Gee, I wonder why you left that out?

It's possible that the teenager in question was unarmed

No, it's not possible he was unarmed, and you know it. He had a weapon.

Now I know why you left that out.

[Ernesto]

197. FALSE STATMENT

Any real vet knows the max (standard) tour was EXACTLY 12mos & 20 days. Ever heard of a short timers calender?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

37. The Globe has been attacking Kerry for Years

I don't consider them an unbiased source. They have had it in for him for years.

The guy got fragged in combat...would you have felt better if he lost a leg?

:eyes:

[disgruntella]

40. these people would feel better if Kerry came back in a box

Then again, they'd lose their favorite punching bag.

[seventhson]

55. "He got "Fragged""??? By his own men?

I hadn't heard that one yet but it might fit.

I doubt that though.

Being "fragged" means your own men kill or injure you - like the kid in Kuwait who threw the grenade into his officers' tent.

He was allegedly hit, though, by shrapnel. Maybe it was minor (he took two days off to recuperate). Maybe it WAS shrapnel. Maybe he got a splinter. Who Knows? Who treated him? Who was the medic? What does HE say about these alleged wounds that got Kerry out early.

[bearfartinthewoods]

126. i thought getting "fragged" meant attacked by your own men?

[OrdinaryTa]

139. Kerry Wasn't Fragged

"Fragged" doesn't mean getting hit with fragments. It means that one of your own guys lobbed a grenade at you, generally while you're sleeping.

[Patriot_Spear]

28. This post sickens me... Who's next- Max Cleland?

This reminds of the repuke attacks on Max Cleland- and it's f*cking disgraceful!

[indigo32]

30. Amen

eom

[TLM]

136. Well look at it this way... Max lost 3 limbs

and got one purple heart, I think.


Kerry lost 2 whole days, and got 3 purple hearts and a transfer out of combat.


Now I do not have a problem with that as it is... but when Kerry starts struting around like a war hero and claiming he did 2 tours as a combat vet, when he was only in country 4 months... that pisses me off.

He's hyping his service and that is as distastful when Kerry does it as when Bush does it.

[bearfartinthewoods]

141. exactlly the point!!!!!!!!!

somebody get this guy or gal a cigar.

what they did to Max will pale compared to what they'
ll do with this if there is anything iffy about his service.

it has to be dealt with before he's nominated. we have a right to know if this is a bombshell or a firecraker.

[oasis]

163. Niether bombshell or fireceracker.....it's stricktly bullshit.

[oasis]

162. John McCain surrendered to the enemy to avoid further combat.

What a chickenshit. :eyes:

[FredScuttle]

194. Don't forget....

Max Cleland selfishly hung on to one arm and got to come home

:eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

29. Enough is Enough, OrdinaryTa

can you find another obsession to focus on aside from Kerry's military record? These repetitive, flame-bait posts lack any kernel of truth. You REALLY need to get a life...

:eyes:

[OrdinaryTa]

41. Three and Yer Out

I don't know if the "three and you're out" policy is still in effect, but it encourages abuse. You don't have to agree with me that what Kerry did was chickenshit, but lots of people will. Trust me on that! Kerry was an officer, and he exploited a loophole to duck out of combat.

[TAH6988]

43. Where's your Silver Star??? N/T

[Patriot_Spear]

44. A-freaking-men.

God, I am so sick of these candy-ass armchair warriors and their f*cking REMF opinions.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zbdent]

32. Well, how about the "War Hero" status given to Bob Dole?

From what I understand, he wasn't even in Europe as long as Kerry's "four month tour" before getting himself fragged.

Regarded as a "War Hero" veteran by the Right. (I never liked Bob Dole, but I would have an exponentially greater amount of respect for him than I would George W. Bush.)

Guess that's what happens when you spend most of WWII playing student doctor until your grades get so bad that you're going to lose your deferment and you volunteer in the last full year of the war.

"Senator for sale". Supposedly written by a friend.

[Patriot_Spear]

39. Look I don't like Dole either, but give me a freaking break..

The guy loses the use of his arm while serving in the Army and you lay this shit out?!

If Daniel Inohe, who was in the same rehab facility after the war, can speak respectfully of Doles' service, so can fucking you.

[JI7]

42. agree, i respect dole's service

and he is n't a bad guy either.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JI7]

45. kerry served honorably

.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seventhson]

56. There are those among us who bbelieve Kerry is a fraud

His whole persona and history is rife with fakery.

This is the standard operating procedure for members of the Order of Skull and Bones: especially the military service etc.

But I will say this:

Skull used to value military experience for its members. It was usually plush and pampered but it ultimately WAS training for the life and death battles they would be up against when promoting fascism globally as they got older.

Getting medals for those who needed political resumes as heroes was important. These fixes were usually in too in advance. Remember the begining of the Manchurian Candidate? The Silver Star for the killer?

This is not random paranoia -- there is a history of these types of things amongst the spooky ruling elites. Especially the Bonesmen, the Porvellians (Harvard) and the Princeton spooks (Rummy, Carlucci et al)

Remember - these bastards eat their own young for profit.

[sangh0]

62. Rife with fakery?

You mean like describing the one of the VC Kerry killed as "a teenager in a loincloth" while leaving out the part "who was carrying a grenade launcher"?

Or do you mean the place where you mentioned a desire to read some eyewitness accounts (as if you hadn't seen any), and then posted links to an article that had eyewitness accounts?

[seventhson]

80. The stories speak for themslelves. I linked them. No fakery.

I thought the fact that he was in a loincloth was interesting.

I also thought it was contradicted by other stories I have read which indicated the boy was not running away but that he was DOWN. Kerry was out of his crew's sight -- so who knows what happened. We have to trust Kerry on it, but I don't.

I only just now read the more recent account. But I find it telling that Kerry apparently DID get special treatment and that he refues to release the actual medical details of the injuries. THOSE are what will tell the rest of the story. But we may never get them and I will still never trust the accounts fully.

Look. I have the highest respect for all Veterans who did their service in hell. It was not their fault the war was FUBAR.

But it DOES look like Kerry may have gotten special treatment and that the nature of his injuries were very minor.

I will say this: I would NOT hold it against ANYONE who wanted to get out of that war early. Not even Kerry.

It is the possibility of special treatment both in the medals thing as well as the early out that I think is offensive to those who suffered or died because they could not get the speaicl treatment Kerry got.

[sangh0]

113. More lies

I thought the fact that he was in a loincloth was interesting.

And the FACT that he was carrying a grenade launcher was what, "boring"?

I also thought it was contradicted by other stories I have read which indicated the boy was not running away but that he was DOWN.

The "eyewitness account", which you claim to want to read (even though you had already read them) says he was running away.

Kerry was out of his crew's sight -- so who knows what happened. We have to trust Kerry on it, but I don't.

Even though you say Kerry couldn't be seen, you buy the story that the enemy soldier (not "a boy") was DOWN.

We have to trust Kerry on it, but I don't.

Then obviously, we DON'T have to trust Kerry, not that the truth stops you from saying otherwise.

We have to trust Kerry on it, but I don't.

So you admit to lying about Kerry BEFORE collecting and reading the relevant information. And you expect to believed?

I find it telling that Kerry apparently DID get special treatment

Apparently not.

I have the highest respect for all Veterans who did their service in hell

Another lie. You don't respect Kerry, even though he did do service in hell.

But it DOES look like Kerry may have gotten special treatment and that the nature of his injuries were very minor.

No it doesn't. Where did you get the idea that just saying it does is a convincing argument? So who have you convinced so far?

It is the possibility of special treatment both in the medals thing as well as the early out that I think is offensive to those who suffered or died because they could not get the speaicl treatment Kerry got.

How ironic. The ones who suffered aren't complaining about this, but you, someone who didn't serve in combat and who claims would NEVER disrespect someone who served, is complaining but has not one FACT to back him up.

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

119. and there are others of us who back Kerry but think this war hero angle

will bite us in the butt if the details aren't fleshed out before the general campaign.

[OrdinaryTa]

58. Motivation

There was always something about Kerry that I distrusted but I didn't quite know what it was. But when he voted for the war, I knew he couldn't be a true Democrat. More recently, I read articles that were intended to be favorable to Kerry, but they contained facts that didn't support the interpretations put on them.

For example, I know what it takes to get a purple heart. Because Kerry got three of them in four months, it suggests that the awarding authority was throwing them away. It happens! In some units, for example, all the officers automatically went home with a silver star.

When I learned that Kerry used his not-fully-earned purple hearts to get an early out, I was pissed. Democrats don't want to believe this. Say it ain't so, Joe. But Kerry's questionable actions in getting out early cancels out whatever he'd hoped to gain by volunteering for Vietnam in the first place.

These issues came up in his unexpectedly tough Senate race against Weld, and they won't go away in the presidential race. Kerry needs to come clean on his war record. Let's find out why he won't let the press examine the medical documentation supporting his purple hearts.

[sangh0]

64. LOL!

There was always something about Kerry that I distrusted but I didn't quite know what it was. But when he voted for the war, I knew he couldn't be a true Democrat.

You just KNEW he couldn't be a "true Democrat"!!

Boy, that speaks volumes about you, and I bet you don't have a clue what I mean by that.

[OrdinaryTa]

71. Take It Or Leave It

I never trusted John Kerry, and I didn't know why. Now I do. The guy's a phony.

[sangh0]

73. How revealing!

You just KNOW that Kerry can't be trusted.

I didn't know why. Now I do

[July]

86. Opinion vs. fact

Paragraph 1: you had a negative feeling with no facts to back it up, then you decided what his vote meant (you KNEW)

Paragraph 2: "I know what it takes to get a purple heart" -- back this up, please? "In some units ... all officers automatically went home with a silver star." Same request.

Paragraph 3: Working with paragraph 2's "it SUGGESTS that the awarding authority was throwing them away," you assert that Kerry has "not-fully-earned purple hearts." This is a perfect example of BEGGING THE QUESTION, that is, asserting as a fact what you are trying to prove. More piling on: "questionable actions ... cancels out whatever he'd hoped to gain ..." (again, your opinion).

Don't know about your last statement about medical documentation: one more time, how about some facts?

[salin]

76. the constant yammer

the continual ignoring of questions like: documentation please?

In the end seems to have a net effect of 0 on political opinions, the stifling of other conversations (perhaps this is the intent?), and the discrediting of those perpetuating the themes with nothing but rhetoric and assertions.

[OrdinaryTa]

102. Rhetoric and Assertions

Three purple hearts in a four-month tour sounds to me like he got them cheap. Kerry should allow access to the medical documentation, especially since he used these questionable awards to get out of combat early.

As one Democrat, I don't think Kerry earned an early out. He got one by bending the rules, but that's not admirable. In my opinion, it's chickenshit.

[Nlighten1]

61. BS

The military had a policy of sending people back home who are wounding in action 3 times. Nice try though.

[OrdinaryTa]

70. Actually, No

Actually the policy was to allow triple awardees of the purple heart to apply for reassignment. Kerry wasn't automatically reassigned; he had to put in paperwork. And the paperwork wasn't automatically approved, either.

Take a look at it the way it is - Kerry got out cheap. Just lucky I guess? Not in Kerry's case. He ended up with a plum job as an admiral's aide in New York City. Does this suggest string-pulling? It certainly does, Ollie.

[retread]

65. Hey Karl is that you?

*

[Patriot_Spear]

67. LOL... Ouch.

...He shoots- He SCORES!

[trumad]

78. OK...I gotta ask

Did Kerry go on patrols in Nam? Did Kerry encounter the enemy while in Nam? Could Kerry have been killed while performing those duties... Do his own men still follow him around the country and call him one hell of a leader?

It's either yes or no to these questions... If it's no then ya might want to show old Truman some solid proof...If it's yes then you're nothing but a true coward who will lie at the expense of trying to win an argument... Sounds just like a republican to me...

[OrdinaryTa]

94. Uninformed Arguments

You sound horrified at the idea that guys get awards they haven't really earned. In fact it's quite common, especially with the purple heart, which over time has come to be awarded rather thoughtlessly. This was not George Washington's intention when he created the purple heart.

The point here is that whatever Kerry hoped to accomplish by volunteering for Vietnam is invalidated by the chickenshit way he got out. He's running for president as a war hero, but that claim seems to be based more on the fact of certain awards than on what these awards purport to represent.

Three purple hearts in four months? Hmm-m-m, something's not quite right about that, especially since he bought his ticket out with them. I say it strains belief. I freely admit I don't like John Kerry; he voted for the war in Iraq.

[molly]

95. OMG - you're JEALOUS - aren't you?

[sangh0]

103. OT won't answer the simple questions

because he KNOWS, Kerry is wrong.

That's speaks volumes about OT's motivations

[OrdinaryTa]

107. Kerry's Answers

Kerry hasn't been very forthcoming about his actual war record. He doesn't welcome any questions about his suspicious purple hearts. Did he earn them or not? Let's get the documentation.

[molly]

111. YOOOOHOOOO - we want to know why you are avoiding

discussing your "actual war record". HUH?????

[bearfartinthewoods]

115. his or her record is NOT THE ISSUE

this is exactly the same attack that people used against me a year ago when i first started asking about this.

IT"S NOT RELEVANT.

[OrdinaryTa]

124. DU Rules

Enough about my war record, it's irrelevant to this discussion. Read the rules: Discuss the message, not the messenger.

[molly]

133. Is IS RELEVANT!!!

and this is about the message. Quit ducking the question and just tell us. I don't have military service and I admit it - my husband certainly does and I want to hear about yours.

[bearfartinthewoods]

135. you have no right to know anything about any posters private life or

history. avsolutely NO right what so ever and this persistance is making you look really desperate to change the subjuct.

[molly]

137. I want to know the credibility of the posterS who have no clue

how it was in Viet Nam.

[bearfartinthewoods]

144. guess what?

what you want is irrelevant.

Ta's experience is irrelevant.

it's Kerry's Vietnam experience that's at issue here.

ON EDIT...it just dawned on me!!! You know don't you? you know the truth. how did you find out? that's it isn't it? you know the real story about the wounds. WOw...now i understand...i was really amazed that an intelligent DUer would have no intellectual curiousity about this. you aren't curious because you know the facts, right?

jeeeze...it must be bad, considering how desperately you are trying to shut down this thread and quiet TA.....

don't suppose you'd be interested in sharing with us eh??

[OrdinaryTa]

145. Examples?

Give me some examples of things I've said that suggest to you that I'm "clueless" about combat in Vietnam. It shouldn't be difficult to discredit me, because I've posted a number of really detailed facts. You shouldn't have any difficulty finding errors in my statements.

You should abide by DU rules which clearly say Message Not Messenger.

[sangh0]

122. OT still cowardly avoids the questions

"Did Kerry go on patrols in Nam? Did Kerry encounter the enemy while in Nam? Could Kerry have been killed while performing those duties... Do his own men still follow him around the country and call him one hell of a leader? "

Simple question, OT

[OrdinaryTa]

130. You Said a Mouthful

Could Kerry have been killed?

That's certainly true, and he damn well knew it! Healthy, able-bodied John Kerry didn't wait to be invited to leave Vietnam, he got his ass out of there.

Good catch, sangh0. I noticed that myself.

[bearfartinthewoods]

it's Kerry's refusal to answer that should concern you.

if there is nothing to hide, why not just come out with it"
youknow this is going to come out and be an issue. think hannity will ignore this? or rush? or all the dithering little RW local talkshow host?

shit...i can hear it already.

we have to deal with this now so by the time of the general election, it's old news...

[sangh0]

142. It doesn't concern any of us

Medical records need not be released. They are confidential.

if there is nothing to hide, why not just come out with it"

The same argument is used by those who would weaken our Constitutional protections against unreasonable searches and seizures. HERE'S WHY NOT:

To protect the Constitution!!!!

youknow this is going to come out and be an issue.

Very disingenous, bfiw. I do NOT "know" this. IMO< there is NO WAY Bush* is going to bring up the issue of military service, either directly, or through his minions. Bush* and the Repukes are hoping the issue disappears.

[bearfartinthewoods]

159. bush doesn't have to

hannity will and rush and the thousand rush wannabees on the radio.

keep saying three purple hearts. most people know that means three wounds. read this thread. many people are gonna say wow, how'd that happen. and there will be some freeper just itching to fill in the details or question the lack of them.

btw...that constitution angle is really really lame...even to me and i'm a freak about constitutional rights.

[trumad]

106. Answer my questions OrdinaryTa...

The questions in post 78... If you can't answer these simple questions then you have no credibility.

[sangh0]

123. Here are the questions OT

"Did Kerry go on patrols in Nam? Did Kerry encounter the enemy while in Nam? Could Kerry have been killed while performing those duties... Do his own men still follow him around the country and call him one hell of a leader? "

Stop being a coward and answer the simple questions

[OrdinaryTa]

153. Answers

Did Kerry go on patrols in Nam? Yes

Did Kerry encounter the enemy while in Nam? Yes

Could Kerry have been killed while performing those duties... Yes

Do his own men still follow him around the country and call him one hell of a leader? I don't know


And now, a further question.

Was Kerry's early out from Vietnam chickenshit? Yes, emphatically

[sangh0]

157. OT still won't answer the questions

You've seen the articles which quote Kerry's men calling him a good leader, and you lie and say "I don't know"

[OrdinaryTa]

164. Kerry Takes Care of Them

Oh, come on. Here's a big time politician lavishing all this attention on guys who are really nobodies. Why wouldn't they say good things about him?

In Vietnam Kerry pulled strings to them transferred to safe jobs. In the intervening years, he's flown them all over the country, put them up in fancy hotels and fed them well. Their loyalty isn't exactly mysterious.

[molly]

74. Has anyone in this thread asked you about your SERVICE?

when and where did you serve?

[OrdinaryTa]

77. Irrelevant Question

I'm not the subject of this thread. Don't make this ad hom. Kerry's running for president, claiming to be a war hero. Questioning his record is entirely legitimate.

[TAH6988]

82. Yes, it is, BUT assigning

"value" to his silver and bronze stars and his purple hearts is not. Unless you have "earned" any of those medals, you are in NO position to judge his earning of them.

[molly]

85. So, just answer the question - years of service - which branch?

[TAH6988]

89. I can! I can!

ZERO!

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

116. maybe you could limit your attacks to the message instead of the messanger

like in the DU rules???

[Raven]

121. I don't think Molly is attacking the messenger...

she is asking a legitimate question of someone who perports to know a good bit about combat.

[bearfartinthewoods]

127. i'm not surprised you'd approve since it's the same tactic you tried on me

remember....demanding to know my war record"

Posting over and over and getting soooo angry because i didn't respond because i had logged of to watch Donohue?\

you were wrong to do that then and molley et all are wrong to do it now.

freedom of speech is not limited to people who fought in Vietnam.

[molly]

140. OH YEA!!!! Thanks for jogging my memory - I remember

that from last year - got a link? That was certainly memorable. Did you ever answer the questions? What's your record?

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raven]

152. Hi Bear! We meet again.

I happen to think that anyone (you included) who talks with authority about something that many of the rest of us have no first hand knowledge about should have to present their credentials...no one is limiting free speech, we are just trying to establish credibility. After all, if I started a thread giving my advice and opinion on a medical or legal issue, it would be fair for someone to ask what experience I have.

[bearfartinthewoods]

154. well Raven. i hope you're doing well in your new abode

i'd totally agree with your position that when a person offers themselves as an authority they could expect to be asked for background.

in this case, i'm not offering myself as authority. just asking questions about a possible presidential candidate. i don't need proof of experience to ask questions do i?

[Raven]

169. I was addressing Molly's question to the poster, not you.

At least not in this thread. I think you might need to understand that those of us who had close encounters with the Vietnam War really respond viscerially to people who talk like they know what happened there...thus Molly's question of the poster, not you. Now, having said that, let me say that everyone is entitled to an opinion about war, the Vietnam war or WWII...or Korea...just because "I was there" or "I was close to someone who was there" does not make me an expert...but when someone starts splitting hairs about medals won...well, that's too much for me.

[bearfartinthewoods]

217. i think you need to understand that your experience is not unique

you are not the only one to have lost a spouse or a sibling. acting as though everyone who asks questions about this matter is committing some sort of offense to the memories of those who we lost is .....

well, out of respect for DU rules, i'll let that sentance go, incomplete.

just know that it could be perceived that this is a use of fallen comrades to protect a politician and if that were the case, it would suck.

[sangh0]

105. More questions OT won't answer

You are making an issue here. It is legitimate to question your record and your (lack of) credibility

[OrdinaryTa]

134. Read the Rules

DU rules say Message, Not Messenger. My military record is irrelevant.

Take it up with Skinner.

[sangh0]

143. Answer the question, OT

Why are you afraid of answering questions. You haven't answered any of the many questions that have been asked of you

[OrdinaryTa]

147. Irrelevant Questions

I haven't answered any of the irrelevant questions, and I continue to refuse to do so. It's none of your business whether I spent the Vietnam War in a cave in Crete. DU rules are explicit: Message, not Messenger.

[sangh0]

158. Relevant

You've been asserting that Kerry's getting out of Nam because of his three PH's was "irregular". There's nothing unreasonable with asking how you come by that knowledge.

[OrdinaryTa]

178. Navy Statistics

I can't provide statistics to back up my opinion that Kerry was treated differently. But applying for an early out would offend the Navy bureaucracy, don't you think? If Kerry served only four months of his combat tour, he'd be on the Navy shit list. It's very unlikely that the Navy would reward him with a plum assignment.

Kerry got out of Vietnam, but having pissed off the Navy, he might have ended up in Greenland. Instead he got an extremely desirable assignment as an admiral's aide in New York City. It sounds like he had somebody pulling strings for him. However, I can't provide statistics for this.

[FredScuttle]

190. Hypotheticals are fun, boys and girls!

Unless you, OT, were the one handing out the medals, I fail to see what credibility you have in your argument. And, quite frankly, I couldn't care less if Kerry was over there for one month...the point is he was over there. He didn't create his medals in shop class...he was awarded them. This sounds exactly like the bullshit GOP talking point about how cushy Gore's Vietnam service was...the fact is he, like Kerry, served in country when their country called. Splitting hairs about medals earned by a man who risked his life for his country is beneath contempt...you should be ashamed of yourself, but by the tenor of your posts, I doubt that will happen.

[OrdinaryTa]

211. John Wouldn't Lie to Us, Would He?

Not our John! He wouldn't lie to us. No way. Uh-uh! John Kerry is an honest man.

I don't care how it looks. If you think Kerry pulled strings to get an early out and a plum job in New York, well let me assure you he didn't. Not our John Kerry! He wouldn't do that.

Seriously ... did you fall of a turnip truck? Do you actually believe the stuff you're putting down?

[salin]

90. Isnt this a dupe or something

seems like there have been several threads dedicated to this topic, recently.

[OrdinaryTa]

97. No Dispute

There's no dispute about Kerry's time in combat - only four months. There's no dispute that he got out early because of injuries that weren't serious enough to make him unfit for duty. There's no dispute that Kerry's next duty station was New York City, where he served as an admiral's aide.

The response from Kerry's supporters appears to be that the best defense is a good offense. They can't support what Kerry did in taking advantage of a loophole to get out of Vietnam. He was careful enough to avoid being accused of leaving his buddies behind - he pulled strings to get them transferred, too. The whole deal was hugely irregular.

[molly]

99. Again - your service?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

101. None I'll Bet

except maybe Karl Rove's Troopers

[bearfartinthewoods]

131. again ......irrelevant.

molly, if you don't give a fuck about this issue than say so.

or if you have proof that disputes these questions give it.

but demanding proof of someone's service before he or she can ask questions is ridiculous. it's right up there with "oh yeah?"
and other juvenille retorts.

OT's service or lack there of will not make this go away.

[TLM]

149. I expect any minute for her to ask him why he hates america...

if these accusations are baseless... why not address them instead of attacking the person who is asking the questions?


because you can't since Kerry won't open those records.

What is he hiding?

[Raven]

155. Red Herring Alert! Red Herring Alert!

She never questioned his love of America...just his credentials. BTW, do you know where the term "red herring" came from? It fits perfectly here.

[oasis]

176. "What is the motivation for these threads?" Is a better question, IMO.

:shrug:

[Starpass]

114. hmmm, didn't Bush dig up some slimebag veterans to call McCain

a man who betrayed his men (what men, he was shot down) and was not really a hero? Some of the barstool vets (the ones who never made anything of theselves after the war) like to create stuff like that so they can think of themselves as big men. Probably the big men who hunkered down and let someone else get shot. Wonder how much those boys picked up in extra beer money from whoring for Bush???? Shame they weren't the ones who came home in bodybags. The good ones took it for these guys............

[TSElliott]

128. First I am not a Kerry fan but this is ridicules.

I mean people complaining that his first tour did not see any combat because he was on a carrier; please he was in the Navy that’s what you do in the Navy you are out at sea in boats providing support. Second he did some amazing stunts during his second tour even though it was only 4 months as a swift boat skipper. Plus I would bet dimes to donuts that most of those complaining about Kerry's service never even served in the Armed Forces.

http://www.primarymonitor.com/news/stories2003/ma__democrats_kerry_20031.shtml
~snip~
Kerry and his crew on swift boat No. 94 went on a series of 18 missions over 48 days during which Kerry won the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and two Purple Hearts.
~end snip~

The guy received a Silver Star and a Bronze Star in the matter of 48 days, that's amazing.

http://www.americal.org/awards/achv-svc.htm
~snip~
3-13. Bronze Star Medal
a. The Bronze Star Medal was established by Executive Order 9419, 4 February 1944 (superseded by Executive Order 11046, 24 August 1962).

b. The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

c. Awards may be made for acts of heroism, performed under circumstances described above, which are of lesser degree than required for the award of the Silver Star.

d. The Bronze Star Medal may be awarded for meritorious achievement or meritorious service according to the following:

~snip~

3-9. Silver Star
a. The Silver Star, section 3746, title 10, United States Code (10 USC 3746), was established by Act of Congress 9 July 1918 (amended by act of 25 July 1963).

b. The Silver Star is awarded to a person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Army, is cited for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force, or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The required gallantry, while of a lesser degree than that required for the Distinguished Service Cross, must nevertheless have been performed with marked distinction.

c. It is awarded upon letter application to Commander, PERSCOM, ATTN: TAPC-PDA, Alexandria, VA 22332-0471, to those individuals who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Army, received a citation for gallantry in action in World War I published in orders issued by a headquarters commanded by a general officer.
~end snip~

*ON EDIT* The Subject should read Ridiculous not Ridicules.

[LuminousX]

138. What is being accomplished here?

Oh, yes, I see it now, baseless attacks against Kerry to achieve absolutely nothing. Kerry's record is available for all to see. Nitpicking it, looking for areas where he wasn't engaged in combat 24/7 and then claiming he wasn't a true veteran is assinine.

And those people with Dean avatars saying this should ask the Dean campaign if it sees this as an issue, as a worthwhile path of contention with Kerry. I assure you they won't. This is lowbrow, Bushesque rhetoric that does more to harm the party than it does to help any other candidate.

[salin]

148. This doesn't appear to be a 'camp' thing

as in from a particular campaign. This is a couple of very zealous posters' ongoing campaign. It had died down (was real bad last spring) and has picked up steam since Kerry's announcement. If one reads this (and the other attack threads) one will find many sentiments from other camps that wish these particular threads would stop.

[OrdinaryTa]

150. Kerry's Record

Kerry's record is available for all to see

Actually that's not true. The medical documentation for Kerry's purple hearts is a cosmic secret, don't even think about getting access to it.

Here's the nub of it. Three purple hearts in four months sounds like they were awarded somewhat ... um, freely? But Kerry used these questionable awards to bug out of Vietnam after only a third of his tour. This doesn't sound heroic, in fact it sounds chickenshit.

Kerry's running for president! These are reasonable questions.

[oasis]

165. When will your medical records be made public?

[TLM]

170. Perhaps when he runs for president?

Why can't anybody address the real issue here with Kerry hyping his service, instead of attacking the guy who is asking the questions or acting like only someone who served has any right to ask such questions?

[oasis]

180. Asking a question is not an attack. Medical records are private.

I don't even want to see Dean's medical record on his "back" problem that kept him from serving. Do you?

[molly]

183. Why do you think Kerry hyped his service - it's been

documented here - there and everywhere for many-many-many years - it's public record.

[TSElliott]

168. Not sure about all his wounds

but this is the one that laid him up for two days.

http://www.primarymonitor.com/news/stories2003/ma__democrats_kerry_20031.shtml
~snip~
Kerry requested the transfer just days after a March 13, 1969 incident for which he was awarded a Bronze Star. Kerry, while under fire, rescued a Green Beret who had fallen overboard. Kerry had been wounded just moments earlier when a mine detonated near his "swift boat," the small vessels that made forays into the Mekong River delta.

"The man was receiving sniper fire from both banks," according to Kerry's Bronze Star citation. "Lt. Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain, with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard."
~end snip~

[bearfartinthewoods]

166. another winner....another cigar..........Bushesque rhetoric

ever listen or watch hannity?

close your eyes and bring up his sanctimonious voice asking these questions. you think he'd pass on a chance to ask about this stuff?

cue hannity and his phoney smarmy smile.

welcome senator Kerry. you have a very impressive bio here.
two tours in vietnam..wow...you were in vietnam for two years?

well no....actually ...yada yada yada....

and you were awarded three purple hearts. that means you were wounded three times? very impressive senator. how did it happen? what were your wounds?

well....yada yada yada.

or maybe coulter will make nim the subject of her next book. or one of the other RWer "authors". sheeeeesh.

i just want it out now. put the details out and let them be picked over and get it over with before it's general election time.

[oasis]

171. Why would any advocate of Kerry buy into this pure bullshit?

Kerry has in his service an able staff and the endorsement of fellow Vietnam vet Max Cleland.

It is not in Kerry's best interest to create negative "issues" from wild internet rumors and baseless accusations.

[bearfartinthewoods]

173. maybe because they don't want to vote for a pig in a poke

or hand rove a ready made 11th hour issue.

[oasis]

184. "hand Rove a ready made 11th hour issue". Some are creating the "issue"

before it reaches the 11th hour. I'm for letting Rove spend Bush's 200 million on negative research rather than those at DU who can't back up their accusations.

[bearfartinthewoods]

196. i hate to break this to you vut this didn't start with OT or anyone else

here at DU. i first picked up on it over at freepville. they knew about it a year ago. rove doesn't need to spend a penny on this one.
it's an old fester which has never been lanced and allowed to drain.

[FredScuttle]

198. please, please, please

I pray for this scenario....that Hannity or DeLay or Rove or any other gutless GOP chickenhawk MF'ers dare question Kerry's service. Kerry will wipe the floor with them and expose them for the craven, America-hating bastards they are.

Or we could follow your direction...ratfuck Kerry before Rove and his minions get the chance. Hooray for you...I'll pass.

[bearfartinthewoods]

218. how...just tell me how?

how does he mop the floor with someone who asks these questions.

lay out the scenerio whereby he renders the question impotent. i want to believe this isn't a problem. just tell me how he handles it when it comes up. i'm not saying it can't be handled. i'm saying it will have to be artfully handled and such art requires a plan and ime.

now is the time to make and execute the plan, while there is time.
release the details now via friendly media with lots of followup to dull any edge before next year.

[ShaneGR]

156. Actually, that's 16 months to you TA, WTF????

Nice distortion.

And care to provide a link?

[OrdinaryTa]

188. Kerry's Tours

Kerry's first "tour" lasted only six months, not twelve. He was not in danger at any time. Kerry's second "tour" was cut short on his own initiative, when he exploited a loophole in Navy regulations. Kerry's total time in country - if you generously include his time aboard ship - was ten months, not sixteen. War hero John Kerry was in country two months less than the customary yearlong tour.

[Raven]

160. I'll bet that all the Vietnam Vets will love to know

that, unless they got maimed, disfigured or killed, their service was worthless. And oh, by the way, I didn't serve...but I was one of those "waiting wives" so I know a little bit about this subject. Care to compare credentials, anybody?

[OrdinaryTa]

167. Kerry's Short Tour

I didn't say Kerry's service was worthless, just that the way he cut his tour short looks chickenshit. He wasn't seriously injured, but he got out early because of his war wounds. A healthy, able-bodied John Kerry flew back to the States after only four months. It doesn't sound heroic to me.

[Raven]

175. You didn't?

If you didn't say his service was worthless you certainly implied that it was a fraud. Now you are talking about stuff that "doesn't sound heroic" to you? How would you know? You haven't told us. But I can tell you that having lived through it, having had a man and a marriage destroyed by it...no one could have put a toe in that country and come out the same. So I say to you, ask some poor kid coming back from this war whether his medals mean anything. You know, you strike me very much like the folks who are currently running this country...they have alot to say about things they have never experienced and know nothing about.

[OrdinaryTa]

179. Message Not Messenger

You can't comment on my military background, you don't know anything about me. It's also irrelevant. Read the rules, which are very explicit: Message Not Messenger.

Healthy, able-bodied John Kerry came back early from Vietnam, having taken advantage of a loophole in the regulations. It sounds chickenshit to me. It's my opinion, and you don't have to share it.

[TahitiNut]

224. That's rich.

In a thread initiated purely to attack a messenger rather than the message (issues and positions), you call "King's X"? How conveniently hypocritical. :puke:

[OKNancy]

177. You say it doesn't sound heroic.....

and it was a chickenshit thing to do. Well, let's just say that he did get out early, having seen the horrors of war and cursing the day he said he'd go back in. Okay..he got out early. So what?

On a chickenshit scale of 1 to 10, this would rank a 1.5,
Bush is a 10, Clinton a 4, Gore a 2, Cleland a 1.

So on the OKNancy scale of chickenshitty-ness, Kerry doesn't rank too bad.

[OrdinaryTa]

181. The Horrors of War

having seen the horrors of war

Kerry showed little concern for Iraqi civilians when he voted to give George Bush a blank check. His supporter say his positions are "nuanced" but I say his positions are expedient. Kerry talks out of both sides of his mouth. He's a phony.

[retread]

189. I get it! You're pretending to be a Rovian repig in order to

illustrate the slanderous, foul methods that will be used against Kerry when he becomes the nominee. Great job. Good teaching method!

[Wazzup]

172. Y'all TotallyDismissing His Other...

...medals, Recieving the SS isn't easy, I know,I have one myself.

Recieving a PH is no big deal, got 2 of those also.

What is important to remember is that he got into situations that would make most people here, and indeed the rest of the country, pack their drawers.

Here's a brief accounting of the part of his service that is irrefutable...

"Mr. Kerry won his Silver Star by ordering his patrol boat straight into a Vietcong ambush, all guns blazing. This looked foolhardy to some other commanders, but it threw the guerrillas into disarray—and Mr. Kerry carried the day." (Economist, July 19, 2003)

"Kerry went from having one of the safest assignments in the escalating conflict to one of the most dangerous. … wift boats were charged with patrolling the narrow waterways of the Mekong Delta to draw fire and smoke out the enemy. Cruising inlets and coves and canals, swift boats were especially vulnerable targets. … Because bullets could easily penetrate the hull, sailors hung flak jackets over the sides. The boat's loud engine invited ambushes. Speed was its saving grace—but that wasn't always an option in narrow, heavily mined canals. … Under Zumwalt's command, swift boats would aggressively engage the enemy. Zumwalt, who died in 2000, calculated in his autobiography that these men under his command had a 75 percent chance of being killed or wounded during a typical year." (Boston Globe, June 16, 2003)

[JohnKleeb]

174. welcome to DU and dont let this reflect on all of DU

Look at me I support the most liberal of all the candiates but I have to say I like Senator Kerry and I respect him for his service and also hes my second choice.

[OrdinaryTa]

185. Irrefutable Account

The details of the actions for which Kerry was awarded the Silver Star are not irrefutable, in fact they were the subject of controversy in his Senate campaign against Weld. Reports of Kerry's "gallantry" are based on his landing the boat and chasing a single Viet Cong. Who knows what happened next? We'll have to take Kerry's word for it. Unfortunately, Kerry now claims he has forgotten the details.

As you've noted, the purple heart has come a distance since George Washington invented it. It used to be limited to serious battle wounds, but now it seems to be awarded thoughtlessly. Still, using three trivial wounds to get out of combat invites abuse, don't you think?

Incidentally, turning into an ambush is standard operating procedure in the infantry. Maybe the Navy does things differently. It's possible, too, that the Economist writer was uninformed.

[Wazzup]

193. I'll Agree That...

...the details of his SS award are a bit interesting, however, chasing a LONE VC into the jungle isn't for the cowardly. The fact that this tactic was often used to lure us groundpounders into ambushes should not be discounted.

Although Mr. Kerry isn't my first choice for President < I'm hoping for W. Clark to announce his entry into the race > I find it disheartning that so many people here and in this great country are willing to try to defame someone who served in combat for this country especialy given the service record, or lack there of, the pResident.

Some here have focused on his 'hasty' exit from VN as some sort of flaw in his character when most of the groundpounders I met there between '67 and '72 were trying to do the very same thing, to somehow get back to the world.

Look, he had no choice but to serve his first TOD there, NOBODY forced him to take the second, just as NOBODY forced me to do the same.

Finaly, I'd like to thank the DU community for just being here, this is a refreshing change from the other boards I'm involved with.

Keep up the good work all!

[seventhson]

202. Hi Wazzup! I don't think it is clear he did even one full tour

He did ten months or less in the theater. The exact trime is unknown right now. But it is unclear HOW his assignments count as "two" tours when he did less than four months in country and only six on a carrier tender out to sea.

That is one of the issues: Does Kerry exaggerate ANY of his Vietnam experiences the way he exaggerated throwing these same medals away?

I believe he does and he has.

You all are entitled to your opinion.

I think it is an example of his unfitness for the presidency.

But it is only one among many such examples - the Iraq War Vote being the prime one.

THAT vote is indefensible and the "hero" business is secondary, but still significant to many of us.

How many real disruptors are there on this topic, anyway? On both sides?

It is quite interesting.

[oasis]

186. Thank you for the excellent post and welcome to DU.

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[retread]

208. It does have a familiar stench doesn't it?

*

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stickdog]

209. Well, Bush went on a three hour tour during the last years of his

Texas Air National Guard commitment!

[RetroLounge]

215. Can't comment on the messenger, only the message...

The message is:

Disgusting.
Lame.
Sick.
Desperate.
Idiotic.
Freeper-like.
Pathetic.
A bunch of right-wing bullshit masquerading as a topic.
Karl Rove's Wet Dream.
A Bill O'Reilly talking point.
Unsubstantiated, without links.
Chickenshit and Chickenhawk-like.
Did I mention pathetic...

What it says about the messenger one can only infer, but that would be against DU rules...

[Kathy in Cambridge]

216. Misguided

Goebbelsian
Karl Rovian
Irrational
Unsubstantiated
Compensating for shortcomings

One could go on and on, but maybe the ignore feature may be the way to go for a few of the imbalanced folks here...

[bearfartinthewoods]

220. it bugs the helloutta me that someone uses the fact that this issue is

rove's wet dream as a reason it should be ignored.

that's the whole point. this is a weapon that rove will wield.

how in the hell does it do us any good not to prepare a defense against this weapon or better yet, remove it from his arsenal.

oh no, better to stick our fingers in our ears and chant 'war hero' over and over again and pretend that it will all go away.........

[TahitiNut]

225. Manure.

If Karl Rove attempts to besmirch Kerry's service, it'll gain Kerry far more than it'll harm him. No sane person (or are we pandering to the insane, now?) can view that as anything but the most extreme hypocrisy coming from the Busholini camp.

As Commander Codpiece sez: Bring it on.

[TahitiNut]

222. Duplicate (spitting image, it seems)

This has already been discussed (by several people with apparently similar perspectives) at http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/976472/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/970977/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/969320/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/916835/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/975036/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/943982/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/973693/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/970438/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/965400/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/963946/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/973245/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/974702/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/938073/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/959029/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/939323/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/903094/posts
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/932187/posts
and in several other threads.

Why not just continue your discussion there? :shrug:

[bearfartinthewoods]

227. WARNING...clicking on these links takes you to freepville

nice...set people up to get freeper cookies without warning......

[TahitiNut]

228. Big deal. This thread is already there.

:puke: