Please Give Me the Scoop on This Dean Comment

[DoveTurnedHawk]

In an interview on CNN Wednesday, Dean said, "There is a war going on in the Middle East, and members of Hamas are soldiers in that war, and, therefore ... they are going to be casualties if they are going to make war."

Thank you.

DTH

[newsguyatl]

1. dean's response

Governor Howard Dean expressed deep regret today at the ongoing efforts of some of the candidates for the Democratic nomination to continue to play 'gotcha' politics in so sensitive an area as the Middle East:

"Tomorrow is the tenth anniversary of the historic moment when President Bill Clinton, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Chairman Yassir Arafat stood together on the South Lawn of the White House and signed the Oslo Accords. It was a moment of hope and a moment of peace. It is a moment that I hope still brings to all of us a sense of regret for what might have been. Instead of peace, today we have war. Instead of economic growth, we have terror. Instead of a new generation of young people engaged as partners for peace, we have a new generation of terrorists and a new generation of victims.

"Particularly in these days of enormous tension and spiralling violence, I see no room in American politics for political gamesmanship when it comes to the Middle East.

"Of course, Hamas is a terrorist organization, and it must be defeated and its members defeated for seeking to thwart peace and to kill innocent men, women and children. To suggest that I might feel otherwise is shameful and should be beneath the dignity of any campaign.

"In the past few days, I have made clear that I intend to replant the seeds of peace that were sown on the White House lawn ten years ago tomorrow. I will dedicate myself from day one of my administration to the search for peace. I have made clear that it is the special relationship the United States enjoys with Israel that makes us the only party in the world with the potential to help end this centuries-old conflict. I view it as not only a duty but an honor to make sure that this time these seeds take hold.

"I call on Senators Lieberman and Kerry to lay out a constructive vision of
how they would hope to carry on the legacy of Bill Clinton and Yitzhak Rabin
as peacemakers and specifically how they would define the U.S. role under
their leadership to recreate the hope and the promise of the peace process
of ten years ago."

[DoveTurnedHawk]

2. Fantastic Statement, BUT

It does not address the "soldiers" comment. That is what I'm most curious about.

DTH, Whose #1 Declared Candidate Right Now Is Dean

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[newsguyatl]

it most certainly DOES have relevance

to your fox news/drudge story question....

what's your deal?


that's the statement dean put out in response...


did you not get what you were looking for? you want dean to say he supports hamas? :wtf:

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Cha]

7. Dean's getting the parsing words treatment!

[newsguyatl]

14. hey zidzi!!

:hi:


these people have no shame, no?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

20. Fuck Shame

Point out ONE post I've ever made slamming Dean. You won't be able to do it. All I want to know is a fucking simple answer to the post that started this thread.

Frankly, it's quite telling that I've drawn plenty of defensive attacks, and still haven't gotten a straight answer. But I won't hold dishonest supporters against Dean, assuming the facts are as I hope they are.

DTH

[KaraokeKarlton]

80. I'll answer it for you

Dean is basically saying that since Hamas considers themselves soldiers fighting a war and they behave like they are fighting a war, they are going to suffer casualties like any conventional army is. Hamas fights like the Japanese Kamikazi fighters fought. We refer to them as soldiers because they were fighting, even if using suicide attacks as a way to inflict damage.

Look up the definition of soldier. Anyone fighting in a war or cause is called a soldier. The methods they employ aren't used to define whether or not they are soldier. The methods can tell you what KIND of soldier they are, however. Hamas would be terrorist soldiers, clearly, but technically and factually speaking, they ARE still soldiers as long as they are fighting Israel. Doctors tend to deal in facts, and frankly, that's all Dean is doing. It really sucks that people use those methods to fight, but Palestinians are hardly the first to use them. In fact, Israel had similar soldiers long before Palestinians did. Look up The Stern Gang. They used terror attacks to chase Palestinians away so they could take over their land before Israel had a military. Palestinians are doing what was done to them, and most likely figure that since it was effective for Israelis many, many years ago that it might work for them. Neither side is innocent in this conflict. Until we all recognize that, it's never going to get resolved. Our government can be supportive of everyone in the area who wants peace, and the only way to do that is to stop demonizing and closing our eyes to the fact that both sides are doing the wrong thing.

[Malikshah]

92. Right on !!

Very well said KaraokeK--

No one has a monopoly on morality or victimhood in this affair.

The bombing of markets has been going on since the early 20th century--only then it was the other way around.

The British, btw, used house demolitions as collective punishment as well.

Goes to show that there's nothing original under the sun in terms of hate and oppression...

The sooner folks realize that no one sides hands are clean, the sooner we can act as an "honest" honest broker. The fact the Dean has taken the heat for all this just goes to show how far many folks in this country need to go in terms of understanding the true nature of the conflict and its victims.

[gully]

91. What is Clarks postion on Hamas?

Cross posted with far more eloquent folks... :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Ok first off I do not suport any terrorists but

I do believe Dean was talking of this as a war... and by calling
them Soldiers he made sure that people understood what he is
talking about. (This is a war, and in war people die)

I know it may be an inapropriate comment, but you should remember
an old saying of the Cold War... what you call a terrorist is
somebody else's freedom fighter (and we can thank Reagan for that
one and Iran Contra)

Now dean has not gone and recognized Hamas under the rules of International law where calling them soldiers would imply Geneva
Convention Protection or anything like that. For an earlier example
in US history, back in 1917 some of our own politicos called the IRA
Soldiers of Freedom... I might remind you that this was before the
heady days leading to the Republic of Ireland, and all who read that
understood exactly that the IRA was not being compared to a Regular
national Army, which Dean is not doing.

Poor choice of words, yes... does it reflect the situation on the ground? Absolutely, especially from the POV of Hammas and other groups carrying out terrorist attacks against Israel, will the Dean bashers, in particular the boys on the right grab onto this? Absolutely.

Next time they tell you this, remind them, we called the Maquis (french Guerrilla Army during WW II) Soldiers of Freedom (and they were, unlike Hammas)...

In other words, yuo are making a storm in a glass of water... oh and by the way, I do believe in the Right of the State of Israel to exist, but I also believe one of the underlyng causes for 9.11 is our less than fair treatment of BOTH sides in the conflict... and in that Dean is correct... oh and I do have family in Israel, before you even say it.

Oh and has Hammas been involved in Crimes Against humanity? Absolutely, but so has every combatant in the area... I hope this makes it clear enough for you... granted if Israel does anything it will be looked at more closely than the other side, msot of the time, but everybody in that conflict has the blood of innocents in their hands... EVERYBODY, and it is high time we all recognize it... because that will be the only way to solve the crisis, if that is possible. It is called STOP ENABLING THE CONFLICT, which is what I think Dean is trying to do... and no I am not in his head, this is the way I read it.

[Andromeda]

75. Thank you, thank you, thank you...

you explained that beautifully. I'm getting tired of people parsing Dean's words and making something out of nothing. I, too, don't believe he really thinks of Hamas as soldiers in the literal sense. I believe he was speaking metaphorically, for example, Saddam Hussein is Satan. Palestinians have no army, air force or navy and loosely organized rogue warring factions (terrorists and suicide bombers) are the closest thing they have.

Too much emphasis is put on minute little details that in and of themselves have no sinister meaning. People need to take what Dean says in context so they can get a broader view of his stand on certain issues.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

77. I Honestly Hope You're Right

I hope that's how Dean feels, too.

DTH

[DoveTurnedHawk]

76. Thanks for Your Post

You're a reasonable person.

That said, I do not accept moral equivalency between Hamas murderers and other parties who try to avoid civilian casualties. Now, THAT said, I also have enormous problems with Sharon, Likud and the way that the IDF has been comporting itself recently, and I have a huge problem with the way the formerly "defensive" wall has transformed into a massive, grotesque land grab and effective prison.

DTH

[paulsbc]

9. where is the plan?

"plant the seed". please. he has no clue what to do in the ME, just like the rest of the world. No clue..

now, if he wants to come out with a real PLAN, perhaps I can consider this more than just political crap, but ALL the politicians today have no clue when it comes to Israel/Palestine.

[Cha]

31. But first they have to see that you can't take sides!

That's a start.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

59. Not Taking Sides Is Fine

And frankly, I would love to see a President who holds Israel accountable for the money we give them every year. If they accept our money, we ought to be able to attach some strings.

But calling Hamas "soldiers" amounts to glorifying them, and that's not being neutral; that's taking the WRONG side.

DTH

[paulsbc]

67. not to me

a start is having a real plan on how to deal with it, and not just the same "i'll fix it" rhetoric that we've had for years.

I'm waiting for the plan, but I doubt we'll see any, again they have no clue on this particular issue

[Maple]

4. It was a Fox 'news story'

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,97122,00.html

[newsguyatl]

6. speaks volumes eh?

and drudge had it up, too, though he took it down...

folks are just grabbing at straws... it's almost comical... i'd laugh if it were't so fucking pathetic.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

10. Dude...I LOVE DEAN

And your weak efforts at innuendo are what's pathetic.

All I wanted to know was what's up with this alleged "soldiers" comment. I don't know anything about Faux here. All I know is that I read the quote in a reputable publication, and if you DISPUTE the quote's existence, please say so clearly. I will take you seriously if you tell me that Dean NEVER said the "soldiers" line.

DTH

[usregimechange]

8. yes and

the solders who dropped the nukes on 3-mile urban areas of innocent civilians during WWII were solders as well.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

12. I'm Sorry, But Are You Equating Hamas With WWII Airmen?

Please let me know. Thanks.

DTH

[janx]

18. Palestinians have soldiers, terrorist soldiers. One reason

they behave in such a crude and brutal manner is that they have nothing else. Sure, they'd like to have a standing army and tanks and aircraft...But they have absolutely nothing. They have no country and only a so-called leader who is mentally and physically ill and who does not really give a damn about them.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

Nice Excuses

If Hamas targeted soldiers, I would have little to no problem with them. But they target civilians. That, I have a big fucking problem with.

DTH

[janx]

28. Just the facts, dearie.

They are not pleasant ones; I'll grant you that.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

56. I'm Glad You Agree They're Facts (eom)

DTH

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

94. Targeting civilians.

Dresden. Hiroshima. Nagasaki.

Same or different?

[LightTheMatch]

24. whatever.

Terrorists, soldiers, whatever, people that blow things up, bad guys, the ones with black hats, evil doers, etc.

I really don't give a sh*t what Dean calls them. It is a war, why are you thinking it is otherwise?

[StandWatie]

87. that would a horrible smear on Hamas

Your knee-jerk response to equate all Hamas activities with human bomb attacks is about as stupid as calling all WWII airmen mass-murderers (which without a doubt the crew of the Enola Gay were.)

You can get mad and "patriotic" as you want but if you think incinerating hundreds of thousands of people intentionally was "justified" than I completely fail to understand your abject horror at someone thinking that blowing up a few dozens intentionally is the crime of the millenia.

[w13rd0]

11. Here, lemme spell it out...

...Hamas is a terrorist organization that considers itself at war, and considers these individuals that strap bombs on themselves and blow themselves up soldiers and martyrs. As soldiers, they are legitimate targets, unlike civilians, who would NOT be legitimate targets...does that make it any easier...

[Cha]

13. Thanks! W13rd0!

Made it more clear for me!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

16. Dude, I KNOW HAMAS Considers Their Bombers Soldiers

What I want to know is if DEAN considers Hamas bombers "soldiers" or not!

Christ, can't I get a straight answer here?!?

DTH

[w13rd0]

26. How many straight answers do you need?

The response in question was in regard to the "targetted killings". Dean was saying they are SELF-IDENTIFIED SOLDIERS, and thus LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS. Is this a case of people just not wanting to accept the obvious?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

32. Well You're the First!

God, you're telling me what I WANT TO HEAR. But I don't see the words "self-identified" anywhere, I don't see the proposition that Dean thinks Hamas member are legitimate military targets.

If he really thinks that, then GOOD ON HIM! Please point me to the text (which, despite your assertion, STILL hasn't been quoted yet) and I'll be VERY VERY HAPPY!

DTH

[CoffeePlease1947]

15. Dean doesn't understand foreign policy or the middle east so I give him

a pass on everything he says about it all. But then again, I cannot support a candidate in 2004 that has NO foreign policy. I know Clinton didn't either, but we were not at war in Iraqi at the time.

Mike

[sfecap]

17. Well you obviously do...

...so why don't you run it all down for us. Tell us all about the ME, and spell out the foreign policy that Dean doesn't know, but you do.

[CoffeePlease1947]

69. Did somebody say something? I have people that make personal attacks

others on DU on ignore.

[gully]

95. Who do you support Mike?

curious? Or who are you inclined to support now?

[Evanstondem]

19. Dean Soldiers Comment

I assume that Dean did use the word "soldiers" -- at least, CNN is quoting him as doing so.

Given the overall thrust of Dean's comment, why do you think this is a big deal?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

21. Because People Who Deliberately Target Civilians Are Not Soldiers

They are scum.

DTH

[janx]

23. Of course they are scum. But they are scum because they have

nothing else and no other way. The desperation has reached the point of insanity.

[sfecap]

29. Does using cluster bombs count?

For targeting civilians, I mean...

[Cha]

33. Nobody wants to hear about that, sfecap...

:-(

[Evanstondem]

36. They Are Scum

I agree that they are scum, and "terrorists" would have been a better word, but I believe this was an on-air interview, and you can find imprecise wording in any candidate's on-air comments.

Do you disagree with the substance of what he said to CNN?

[Maple]

30. A clearer story on thesubject

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/71491.html

[DoveTurnedHawk]

34. THANK YOU, But

On Wednesday, CNN’s Wolf Blitzer asked the former Vermont governor his opinion on whether Israel should be assassinating Hamas leaders.

“I think no one likes to see violence of any kind. That’s why the United States is involved. I will say, however, there is a war going on in the Middle East, and members of Hamas are soldiers in that war,” Dean said. “Therefore, it seems to me, that they are going to be casualties if they are going to make war.”

I ABSOLUTELY APPRECIATE your effort to provide some actual facts in this discussion. Thank you very much.

Unfortunately, I fail to see how Dean's comments were taken out of context, as he claims. Based on the above, they seem to be accurately paraphrased by Dean's critics.

I WELCOME hard evidence that supports the contrary position!

DTH

[Maple]

37. IF he said it...he was right

Because that's what they are.

What's the big deal?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

41. Soldiers Fight Other Soldiers

Hamas fights innocent civilians.

Big difference.

DTH

[Maple]

45. Really? Did you get that from comic books?

Because civilians die in war, and have for centuries.

The US has killed civilians...deliberately opened fire on them

So have the Israelis.

Saying 'oops' afterwards doesn't make it any different.

And of course there is the fire bombing of Dresden, and then Hiroshima.....

It's war dude...people die

Their clothing style is irrelevant

[DoveTurnedHawk]

54. Of Course Civilians Die in War

The question is whether efforts have been made to minimize or eliminate civilian casualties, as is required by the Geneva Convention.

Hamas does the opposite; they seek to maximize civilian casualties.

Thanks for playing, though.

DTH

[Maple]

58. Hamas is trying to win against overwhelming odds

This isn't chess you know

Your neat little rule book goes out the window

Because neither they nor I are 'playing'

[DoveTurnedHawk]

61. You're Definitely Playing

And you're definitely losing.

I agree, Hamas isn't playing; they're deadly serious. And they're scum, your effort to glorify them notwithstanding.

"Overwhelming odds." Yes, that's true. The rational answer is not to target civilians, however; it's to come to terms.

DTH

[Maple]

64. No one is 'playing'

and they are soldiers in Hamas...and hand out food and clothes in Palestine as well, and are well loved by the people.

Arafat can't get rid of them. They are far too popular.

And it would be nice if they 'came to terms'....but it takes two to tango, and Israel isn't interested.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

68. Whatever

My mistake, obviously Hamas is a bunch of peace-loving humanitarians.

:eyes:

Welcome to my Ignore list.

DTH

PS: Here is the Hamas Charter, for those who were ignorant of it:

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Article Seven:

<...>

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Article Thirteen:

<...>

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

<...>

Article Twenty-Two:

For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.

You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.

<...>

Article Twenty-Eight

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.

Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Moslem brethren in Palestine.

As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do.

We should not forget to remind every Moslem that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women."

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."

Article Thirty-Two

World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that. "for whoso shall turn his back unto them on that day, unless he turneth aside to fight, or retreateth to another party of the faithful, shall draw on himself the indignation of Allah, and his abode shall be hell; an ill journey shall it be thither." (The Spoils - verse 16). There is no way out except by concentrating all powers and energies to face this Nazi, vicious Tatar invasion. The alternative is loss of one's country, the dispersion of citizens, the spread of vice on earth and the destruction of religious values. Let every person know that he is responsible before Allah, for "the doer of the slightest good deed is rewarded in like, and the does of the slightest evil deed is also rewarded in like."

<...>

--

DTH

[KaraokeKarlton]

81. Why Hamas justifies targetting civillians

Every person in Israel is required to serve in the military. Hamas takes the position that everyone in Israel either is, was or will be a soldier who will be fighting with them. Granted, that's a kind of messed up view to hold, but at the same time, they are right in that all Israelis are tied to the military.

You need to look at the factual definition of "soldier". Anyone who engages in a battle is a soldier. It doesn't matter what kinds of methods they use to fight. The fact that they are fighting is what makes them a soldier. You're trying to tie morality and fighting ethics to the definition, which is why you're reacting the way you are.

[no name no slogan]

96. So does the IDF, another "Terrorist Organization"

Other than the fact that the parsing of Gov. Dean's statement by the SCLM is a big load of dingo's kidneys, we're still not acknowledging some basic truths about the real situation on the ground.

Although Hamas has murdered innocent civilians, it is not alone. Ariel Sharon, by any definition, has committed crimes against humanity and is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians (committed by Druz militia "allies" in Palestinian refugee camps in southern Lebanon in the early 80s).

The most militant Zionists in the first part of the 20th century regularly murdered innocent Palestinian Arab civilians, to terrorize them into leaving Palestine. Hell, the British used to have "wanted" posters all over Palestine with rewards for the vicious acts of terrorism committed by Israel's founding fathers, including Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon, Izaac Rabin and David Ben-Gurion.

The Israeli Defense Forces regularly kill innocent Palestinian civilians in the occupied territories. However, this doesn't get nearly the same amout of coverage in the American media as a bus bombing in Tel Aviv.

Why do so many well-meaning liberals in this country hold the Palestinians to such high "standards", yet refuse to hold Israel or EVEN THE US to these same standards? Why are we so eager to give our "allies" a pass on these issues, yet we're all too willing to support regimes that are much more violent and brutal?

Hamas is not above reproach, and they are certainly not innocent. But neither is Israel. They have both committed atrocities in the name of "the cause".

Don't forget that Hamas was founded, with Israeli money, as a fundamentalist-religious "hedge" against the secular PLO. What else did Israel expect to get from this? It's like the US giving money to fundamentalist Islamists to form Al-Qaeda (waitaminute...).

REAL PEACE will only come when Israel respects UN Resolution 242 and withdraws to its pre-1967 borders and gives the Palestinians a SOVEREIGN STATE of their own.

Look what has happened with Israel and Egypt after Camp David. Israel withdrew from the Sinai and dismantled its settlements. Although relations are far from cordial, there have not been any major conflicts since.

Until the US acknowledges that the Palestinians should have a fully sovereign state of their own on the occupied territories, any "peace" plan is doomed to fail.

[Evanstondem]

38. Dean's Comments

And what do you disagree with in this statement, other than the use of the word "soldiers" instead of some other term?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. Words Have Power

"Soldier" glorifies Hamas. They don't deserve that glory, or that legitimacy.

DTH

[Evanstondem]

47. Word Have Power

Words have power, but you are focusing on one word in a statement that clearlly does not glorify Hamas.

Let's see what you think when people play the same games with Wesley Clark's coments?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

50. The Statement Itself Is Neutral

But the choice of term glorifies Hamas.

If it was a mere misstatement by Dean, I can accept that. I will await his own explanation, if any is forthcoming.

DTH

[janx]

53. Glorifies Hamas? I hardly think so.

Are all soldiers glorious? Were Nazi soldiers glorious?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

70. German Soldiers in WWII

Are distinguishable from the scum who ran the death camps, and from the current Hamas scum who target civilians.

Hamas are not soldiers. They are not freedom fighters. They are murderers.

DTH

[janx]

90. I think it's time you moved on from this, DTH.

People have tried and tried to explain this to you, but it's clear you aren't really interested in discussion.

It's just another flame thread.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

93. Feel Free to Move on Yourself

I reject your unfair characterization of me as not being "interested in discussion." It's quite clear that I am, and that I'm also open-minded enough to have changed my view of Dean's comments.

As for "just another flame thread," I challenge you to find one flame that I've launched. You will fail.

DTH

[Evanstondem]

60. Does This Satisfy You?

From Dean's Blog for America...

"Particularly in these days of enormous tension and spiralling violence, I see no room in American politics for political gamesmanship when it comes to the Middle East.

"Of course, Hamas is a terrorist organization, and it must be defeated and its members defeated for seeking to thwart peace and to kill innocent men, women and children. To suggest that I might feel otherwise is shameful and should be beneath the dignity of any campaign."

[DoveTurnedHawk]

71. It's Better, But Still Doesn't Explain the Original Comment (eom)

DTH

[LightTheMatch]

39. Hamas leaders consider themselves soldiers

Hamas leaders consider themselves soldiers, so if they are soldiers, they are fair targets by the Israelis. I think that was a pretty clear-cut statement... he was basically using their own rhetoric against them, and pretty effectively I think.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

43. Makes No Sense, Based on Context

Again, I know Hamas considers themselves to be soldiers. I disagree with that notion. It lends them a legitimacy that is not appropriate, IMO.

DTH

[Cha]

35. Thanks!

[Capn Sunshine]

40. So, I don't get it?

What don't you understand?

Those seem pretty plain to me.
Hamas.carry guns. expect to see them killed for participating.
anything else you need to know?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

44. That Is an Ignorant Comment

Hamas. Carry bombs. In disguise. Kill civilians.

They are not soldiers. They are scum.

Seems pretty plain to me.

What don't you understand?

DTH

[Maple]

48. Where did you get

your odd little gentlemenly notions of warfare?

It's guerrilla warfare...camouflage, melting into the crowd, hitting the enemy where it hurts, sneak attacks, attacks coming from people you'd least expect it to...women, little kids....that's what that kind of warfare involves.

The days of two neat lines, and a teabreak at elevenses died out long time ago.

1776 I think actually.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

51. From the Geneva Convention

your odd little gentlemenly notions of warfare?

You know, those little things called the rules of war?

Guerilla warfare directed against military opponents is legitimate resistance.

Deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime.

DTH

[Maple]

55. Flash dude

When you're surrounded by the enemy, and they have tanks and planes and you have nothing....the Geneva convention doesn't come into it.

Hell the US isn't abiding by the Geneva convention, and they have no excuse not to.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

57. Funny, People of Color in the United States

Didn't have weapons, and were surrounded by an opponent vastly more powerful than them. Same with Indians under Gandhi.

Nice try with the weak justification argument, though.

DTH

[Maple]

62. Fighting racism

or the relatively peaceful occupation of India isn't the same as fighting tank columns and jet aircraft dropping 1500 lb bombs.

Different kinds of battles require different tactics.

I'm sorry, but just because they don't fight to your liking, doesn't mean you don't have to deal with them just the same.

This isn't a video game, where you can just end it and walk away in a snit if you get beat up in a fight.

If China occupied America....you'd do everything...and I mean everything...to fight back and win.

And yes, you'd be a soldier.

[Capn Sunshine]

49. I don't understand that arcane and disingenuous point

Special ops .wear disguises. Kill civilians.
are they scum?
maybe, but they are also soldiers for their cause.

what is ignorant is pretending there's a problem parsing definitions because that's all you have.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

52. Special Forces Who Actually Kill Civilians

Are indeed scum, and should be brought up on charges. They are not soldiers either, they have forfeited the right to be called that.

DTH

[KaraokeKarlton]

83. What about soldiers of fortune?

Even mercenaries who are hired guns to kill civillians are referred to as soldiers. You've just got to accept the actual definition of the word and keep the morality and ethics of the methods they employ separate. If you can do that, the statement shouldn't bring such an emotional response.

[Old and In the Way]

65. Want to make it a fair fight?

Let's give them the same military budget we give Israel. Helicopters, Tanks, the works. Then they can kill lots more people, "fairly".

But, really, you haven't answered others posts on this thread. When a 100,000 civilians were killed at Hiroshima, would you label our soldiers "scum"....or is it just "different"?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

72. Zero Desire to Make It a "Fair Fight"

Let's give them the same military budget we give Israel. Helicopters, Tanks, the works. Then they can kill lots more people, "fairly".

News flash: life ain't fair. Israel and the Arab entities have fought many wars. As it turns out, Israel ended up on top, despite the Arab entities' best efforts. Such is life.

I think Israel is acting in a heavy-handed and unjustified manner right now; that in no way justifies the murderous actions of Hamas, however.

But, really, you haven't answered others posts on this thread.

I've actually answered them all, but thanks for your misstatement.

When a 100,000 civilians were killed at Hiroshima, would you label our soldiers "scum"....or is it just "different"?

That was a different time, sadly. Hiroshima never would have been allowed to happen today. I'm glad we're more enlightened now. But that same enlightenment is what makes the actions of Hamas completely unacceptable.

If you want to play that game, Israel could easily respond in kind and do whatever the hell they wanted.

I'm glad that the dictates of modern society prevent them from doing so. Don't you?

DTH

[Old and In the Way]

88. I agree, life isn't fair.

But you argue that Hamas is somehow less honorable because they don't have access to the same killing technology that Israel has. You sound like a proponent of "might makes right".

Nice answer on the Hiroshima answer ...."different times". Hiroshima couldn't happen today? We just fought a war with DU, only thing missing is the fireball.

You argue from a relativistic concept of morality.....I'd postulate that Israel's overwhelming military superiority makes them the bully in this fight.

And where should Hamas carry the fight? Since Israel is a completely militarized society where everyone is a citizen-soldier, where can Hamas fight a "military" action against Israel without impacting on the civilian centers?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

89. Not Relativistic

But you argue that Hamas is somehow less honorable because they don't have access to the same killing technology that Israel has. You sound like a proponent of "might makes right".

It's not about the technology; it's about the tactics. I'd have much less problem with Hamas if they'd: a) attack only military targets; and b) cut out the blatant racism and anti-Semitism in their charter.

Nice answer on the Hiroshima answer ...."different times". Hiroshima couldn't happen today? We just fought a war with DU, only thing missing is the fireball.

If you're attempting to draw a parallel between DU and nukes, I'd say those lines are about several football fields away from each other.

But hey, that's just me.

You argue from a relativistic concept of morality.....I'd postulate that Israel's overwhelming military superiority makes them the bully in this fight.

I am actually arguing from an objectivist concept of morality; I am opposed to moral relativism. My point is that deliberately targeting civilians is wrong, and a war crime, which make Hamas a completely illegitimate organization.

I agree with you in that Israel has certain responsibilities which it has utterly failed to live up to, however.

And where should Hamas carry the fight? Since Israel is a completely militarized society where everyone is a citizen-soldier, where can Hamas fight a "military" action against Israel without impacting on the civilian centers?

The "everyone is a citizen-soldier" bit is a common canard, but it's not one recognized by the Geneva Convention. Persons not on active duty -- and certainly the children not yet of military age who are often murdered by Hamas bombers -- are considered civilians, and are not legitimate targets.

DTH

[Evanstondem]

63. I think you've got it!

End of story.

[MercutioATC]

46. Jesus friggin' Christ. Even DU has become this blind??

What do we call the people fighting us in Afghanistan?

Terrorists.

What did we call them when they fought the Soviets a decade or two ago?

Freedom Fighters.

Hamas soldiers ARE soldiers. They are fighting for what they believe. Granted, you and I might not agree with their beliefs, but since when did we assume the right to decide which cause is just and which is not? After the mistakes we have made, the deceptions we have perpetuated, who are WE to judge?

THIS is EXACTLY why so many people see us as arrogant hypocrites. We'll support anybody as long as they promise to support us. You torture people? No problem. You don't support rights for women? No problem. You're no better than the people we're paying you to kill? No problem.

It's a travesty when the supposed enlightnened, conscienctious party can't get beyond the base nationalism that this administration spews.

Personally, I don't agre with their beliefs and I detest their methods, but Hamas fighters ARE soldiers. The sooner we respect that, the sooner we can start to make real progress.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

73. "They are fighting for what they believe."

Oh, well that makes it all OK, then.

:eyes:

I'm sure OBL's crew were fighting for what they believed in, too.


DTH

[MercutioATC]

84. It's not "O.K.", but it's no different than what we do...to call it

something different is to misunderstand it. By not understanding it, we perpetuate it.

These people can't be written off as "terrorists". If we do that, we'll never break this cycle wherein we make ourselves targets mostly through our own inept actions.

It's not O.K., but the label is just as harmful (possibly MORE harmful) than the acts against us.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

85. Fair Enough

Thanks for your viewpoint.

DTH

[Adjoran]

66. When the question is included, the context is clear.

I have been one of those asking for a "clarification" or retraction from Dean of this phrase. And when I first read the explanation that he was saying Hamas members were legitimate targets, I laughed and said "These Dean guys are better spinners than Clinton had."

But when you read the question and answer together, it is clear that he is answering a question about Israel targeting Hamas members and saying "well, they are soldiers and should expect casualties" in their war. The context makes a huge difference! Dean was saying almost exactly the opposite of what he is being accused of saying.

I am an uncommitted voter who was holding out for a Gore rematch and have been skeptical of Dean's lack of experience and ability to beat Bush. This charge is completely without merit. (But I'm still not convinced Dean can win).

[DoveTurnedHawk]

74. That Wasn't My Take

But I respect your viewpoint. Thank you for being one of the few to offer a substantive comment here.

DTH

[DoveTurnedHawk]

78. On Second Thought

I am starting to lean more toward your point-of-view. Thanks VERY much for taking the time to explain it.

Dean is still my #1 choice of the existing field.

Hamas is still a bunch of murderers.

DTH

[DoveTurnedHawk]

86. After Sleeping on It and Re-Reading

I now agree with you. I'm glad I misinterpreted Dean's remarks last night, and he definitely remains my favorite among the current field.

As an interesting side effect, I had never known that there were quite so many Hamas apologists here. Although it's not entirely surprising either, unfortunately.

DTH

[w4rma]

79. the scoop on Dean's comment (OnEdit: Sorry this is the wrong comment)

Dean Learns Pitfalls of a Popular Hopeful

BURLINGTON, Vt., Sept. 11 — It was at the end of an animated session with supporters at a crowded Santa Fe coffeehouse last week when someone asked Howard Dean how he would make peace in the Mideast.

Eyes alighting, Dr. Dean, the former governor of Vermont who has become the hottest of the nine Democratic presidential hopefuls, at first suggested he had something new to say on the subject that might just make headlines. Then he switched gears and said he would save the announcement for a larger audience, instead offering what he considered his standard line, that he had recently visited the region, believed in a two-state solution and was horrified by the violence among Palestinians and Israelis alike.

Little did he know his comments that "it's not our place to take sides" and that "enormous numbers of the settlements that are there are going to have to come out" would soon create the messiest controversy so far in his campaign.
…
In his CNN appearance on Wednesday, Dr. Dean did not apologize for his comments on the Mideast but said he regretted using of the phrase "even-handed" in referring to the talks between the Israelis and Palestinians. He explained that he had "since learned that is a sensitive word to use in certain communities" and that he "could have used a different euphemism." Then he went ahead with the long-forgotten news he never made back at the Santa Fe coffeehouse, suggesting former President Bill Clinton be tapped as a peace emissary.

Nobody paid much attention to that.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/12/politics/campaigns/12DEAN.html

Dean, Pelosi Find Agreement on Israel
Presidential Candidate Dean, Rep. Nancy Pelosi Find They Agree on U.S. Role in Middle East

WASHINGTON Sept. 12 —

House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi and Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean have cleared the air and decided they agree about the United States' role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Dean, a former Vermont governor, called Pelosi Thursday after hearing that she had signed a letter objecting to his comment that the United States should "not take sides" in the Middle East dispute. Pelosi spokesman Brendan Daly said the two agreed that the United States should be an honest broker, but must remain committed to Israel's right to exist.
…
Dean sent a response Friday to the signers, thanking them for their letter. He said he is committed to Israel's peace and its special relationship with the United States, but U.S. leaders must earn the Palestinians' trust to negotiate peace.

Dean said he would follow in President Clinton's footsteps and make every effort to bring peace to the region from his first day in office.

"I will not allow a split to emerge in our party on this critical issue, and I am sure you share my commitment to that goal," he wrote.
…
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20030912_1901.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=111861

[ima_sinnic]

82. oh, I am definitely going to have to withdraw my support from Dean

for that unforgivable "error" of calling the Hamas, er, "scum"--"soldiers." </sarcasm>

Hey, guess what? They ARE soldiers--they are organized fighting/killing units.

Per Merriam-Webster Online:

Main Entry: 1sol·dier
Pronunciation: 'sOl-j&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soudier, from Middle French, from soulde pay, from Late Latin solidus solidus
Date: 14th century
1 a : one engaged in military service and especially in the army b : an enlisted man or woman c : a skilled warrior
2 : a militant leader, follower, or worker

[buddhamama]

97. i don't know the scoop

i interpret it to mean that Hamas are soldiers in a war against Israel and if they end up dead, no one should be surprised. :shrug:

of course 'war' hasn't been declared.
did he say anything about the death of civilians?

[lazarus]

98. okay, this is veerying dangerously close

To I/P territory in a few posts. Everybody, let's keep this about the original topic, or I'll be forced to lock it.

Thanks.

Lazarus, DU moderator