I am no longer a Democrat.

[poskonig]

After a long personal journey, I now consider myself a swing voter. I am twenty-four year-old male who doesn't do drugs, obeys the law, and takes care of my personal finances. Supporting capitalism and human achievement, the sciences and arts command my respect. I volunteered for the Dean campaign last winter thinking a good thing was being done.

Now hordes of Democrats are attacking the candidate I have worked for, and sometimes myself lately. Using the internet is "racist." Being even-handed in the Middle East is "anti-semitic." Making incremental improvements to our health care system is following "Gingrich." And doing good for America is meaningless, since the only good supposedly is defeating George Bush.

Republican or Democratic, this isn't the kind of political stuff I want to be a part of. Ideology from the left (and I was a part of it) hurt Al Gore in 2000, and ideology has been the cause of all of our problems in Iraq. I want to work for more pragmatism in government and less ideology.

I'll briefly summarize where I stand and why I'm going into hibernation.

On foreign policy, I'm not a pacifist or a multilateralist. Merely acting to maximize America's geo-political power is not wise either. We should support human, economic, and political rights and have zero tolerance for weaposn proliferation, international terrorism, and ethnic cleansing where possible. Even if a conflict with Iran or North Korea erupts if our diplomatic options are exhausted, our survival depends on success with these challenges.

On domestic/economic policy, I'm pretty pro-environment. I like to see economic decision making based on what works. Some government programs like social security can be streamlined, and fair-trading is probably a better policy than free trading or bilateralism.

On social policy, I support privacy rights, believe law and order is more important than religious fundamentalism, do not support affirmative action, and am moderately pro-gun.

While none of this automatically makes me a Republican, none of it automatically makes me a Democrat either. I do feel a lot closer to the Democrats, probably because the GOP excommunicates anyone who do not endorse every single item on their platform. Normally a laid back person, I have myself sometimes become pretty nasty with others on here in DU. I've decided to chill soon from this forum, at least until the primary season is over, if not the general election.

"He who fights monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." -- Nietzsche

Given this is "Democratic" underground, I don't believe many will mind if I lay low for a while.

J.H. Bowden

[loudnclear]

1. Thanks for your post...

We all need to do a lot of soul-searching. I agree with your sentiments.

[pasadenaboy]

2. You still sound like a democrat to me.

this board skews more left than most democrats in general.

There are plenty of dems like you, so I wouldn't feel so alone.

I'm closer to your viewpoints than most other 1000+ posters I've seen on this board.

[lindashaw]

3. I'm of the same mind. I don't really know what I am. I know what I'm not

though. And that's okay. I think there is bad in good people and good in bad people. I don't expect any candidate to be perfect, but I do expect people to be kind to one another.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Simple question...

Iff affirmative action were expanded to include economic disadvantage as well, would you approve of it? This is important to me.

[TheDonkey]

7. What do you mean?

I believe Affirmative Action should be used and is used to but the burden of proof on employeers to explain their hiring/firing patterns and how they match up with the demographics of the area.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. I am talking with regard to college admissions

One of the issues white males have with AA is that it does not include economic disadvantage as one of the criteria. I don't disagree.

I am FOR protecting Affirmative Action...I am simply asking if it were expanded would the poster be more favorable towards it.

IF the issue the poster has is in NOT seeing other races get a fair shake, then we simply disagree...if he is for making it expand to promote even MORE equality then fine.

[TheDonkey]

23. That's an interesting suggestion...

that could really take out the "race war" component that currently dogs Affirmative Action.

I think more people need to expand and understand Affirmative Action like you rather than brush it off like so many do (especially 20 something white males). It is a very progressive policy which is hard to grasp and definetly misunderstood. Race and Class are issues that conservatives and even some democrats are forgetting about.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. Thanks. I agree.

BTW..haven't seen many of your posts, so a belated welcome to DU.

[TheDonkey]

5. Are you new to politics?

What ideolody of the left hurt Al Gore? Is that the same ideology that keeps all the problems in Iraq?

[clar]

6. dear jh,

thanks for the post. i'm sorry we're going to lose your voice here. your positions are exactly the positions of my 17 year old son. even when I don't agree with them, i totally respect them.

[gully]

8. JH, before you leave...remember who's at the TOP of the polls now...

It's HOWARD DEAN!

[FubarFly]

9. A petition with these sentiments expressed and...

about 250,000 signatures on it, should be distributed to Dem "leadership" immediately. If you bring down Howard Dean though underhanded and dirty tactics, you're going to lose all of us from the party- forever. Enough is enough.

I wonder if that would get their attention?

[demnan]

10. You are 24, obviously very intelligent and idealistic

I wouldn't doubt that you also grew up in a fairly well educated family as well. You sound like a centrist Democrat to me. Like me, you probably come from a family with a long tradition supporting moderate Republicans back when they were the main party of small businessmen like my father was.

Look, when I was young the Republicans weren't the bad guys and there are still some moderate centrist Republicans in Congress and the Senate, but the entire focus of the Republican party now is so skewed to the fantical religious members of the party, who have gotten so much power in local governments in school boards all over this nation. They want to turn this country into a reflection of a very narrow set of beliefs. Yes, politics is a dirty business, but let me tell you, I worked for the 105th Congress, and if you think we play dirty politics on this board, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Please stay with the Democrats. We need independent-minded soul searching intelligent young people like yourself.

[diplomats]

11. If you still believe in Howard Dean

you shouldn't let attacks on him stop you from working for him. But that's your choice. (BTW, I agree with you on a lot of issues.)

[West Coast Democrat]

12. The Frontrunner Always Gets Attacked

Welcome to politics. It's a competition.

[UTUSN]

13. An Appeal: "Struggle and burn with me!"

Can't stop you. Won't preach. WILL say the well known, that the bad guys "win" each time a good one vacates the playing field.

And there's a short story I haven't tracked down for years, by this French dude, Romain ROLLAND, about an ivory tower prof when the Nazis were taking over, whose sense of civilization was so offended that he WITHDREW, locking himself up with his books, art, and music...

We need you. But if you do as you say, our struggle will just be that much harder and we'll just have to keep on struggling on, now won't we.

******QUOTE*****
http://www.nobel.se/literature/laureates/1915/rolland-bio-ess.html
http://www.stichtingtrinity.nl/Trinity/Britxt/Bromain.htm
"I am not all that is. I am Life fighting nothingness. I am the Fire which burns through the night - I am not the night. I am the Eternal Light; I am not an eternal destiny soaring above the fight. I am Free Will which struggles eternally. Struggle and burn with me!"

*****UNQUOTE****

[Racenut20]

14. Not a reason to stop now

Perhaps this venue, but there are many other places to stand up and promote what you believe in. The reception may not always be favorable to you.

I go to vfw meetings and at the end stand up and ask for support for Senator Graham for President. This is in Florida, where he may not even be a candidate by the time our primary takes place. (He certainly wouldn't be if he acted on what I see in DU)

I tell those who ask, where they can go to contribute time or money. I tell them why I believe in him and will vote for him. I do not pretend to represent him, nor all of his views.

My first adventure was stumping John Birch country in Orange County, California for Bobby Kennedy. Spent evenings and weekends knocking on doors, dodging dogs and abuse I won't attempt to describe. I felt safer in Vietnam. I may have got one or two primary votes for him in that fatal election.


Two of the candidates I have worked for have died on the night of their primary victory. Senator Kennedy and Congressman Jerry Litton. A third died before the primary. Governor Carnahan. (perhaps candidates should pay me not to campaign for them).

But, anypath, If you believe you will continue. There is a place for you in the system and you can contribute to making it better.

R.Parrish

[blm]

67. Haunting, yet beautiful post, Racenut...

Thank you. Perspective is everything, isn't it?

[LalahLand]

16. How does someone elses opinion affect your ideology?

I don't agree with some of the things said here, but that does not make me any less liberal. Actually, the party I identify with the most is the Green party but voting for them right now is unrealistic. Anyway, its also like Christianity-- I consider myself Christian, and there are countless hypocrites calling themselves Christian-but that doesn't change my belief in God.

[unfrigginreal]

17. I agree with everything that you said...except affirmative action.

And I totally understand where your coming from in feeling that you're being attacked for your beliefs. I would just say this as someone considerably older than you...you're in the middle of a total change in the political landscape. I've been a Democrat for a good while and I can tell you that I've never felt as moved by a candidate as I do by Dean. That has caused fear amongst the establishment candidates AND their supporters because he's not going to toe the establishment line.

It's no real surprise that the 2000 election was so close or that the 2002 election was such a disaster. The campaigns that were run gave every indication of "business as usual." Well, that wasn't what I was looking for and I don't think that it was what America was looking for. To begin with, and this may not be the case for many but, I wanted some revenge for the way that Clinton was treated. I was sickened by the lackadaisical defense put up by Democratic politicians while the media tore him apart.

I feel that we FINALLY have someone willing to speak out and take the fight to Republicans. I may or may not agree with Dean on everything, but I certainly agree with him that the Democratic Party needs a rejuvenation. It's ridiculous for us to allow the GOP to step on us the way that they have been. Most of the candidates in this race have contributed to that atmosphere and I'll be nauseous if I have to vote for one of them, but I will.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. BTW..just because you don't understand how an issue negatively

effects another race, doesn't mean it doesn't...it means you don't understand. As near as I can tell, that is a disease many 24 year old white males suffer from.

[UTUSN]

20. And *My* Last Word (to the Original Poster)

(In case my sincere appeal didn't work.) Careful with getting attention. It's addictive.

[Mairead]

19. You're someone who has never known anything but right-wing governance

And so you naturally think that right-wing governance is the norm, with the 'left' being anything that doesn't actually go 'Sieg Heil!' when you meet it.

That, I have to think, is one of the two worst legacies of the right-wing takeover.

I hope you can recover and find your soul--it's in there somewhere!

[readmylips]

21. Anyone who uses a Dan Quayle quote....

must have a head of stone.

[SuffragetteSal]

34. LOL

couldn't have said it better myself.

I don't think this 'person' ever was a democrat...

[neomonkey]

57. Uh folks

If you read that quote carefully, it is quite disparaging of Quayle brain.

[PurityOfEssence]

22. How dare anyone question Dr. Mudslinger with his distortions!

A mild note from one of the morally corrupt here in the DEMOCRACY wing of the Democratic Party: you're reaping the harvest of Karma. From the outset, Dean has been more derisive and personally combative to other candidates than any of the others. Although many of his supporters rage that they should be exempt from the same vitriol that their guy spews because of his unquestioned moral superiority, the rest of the human race has eyes, ears and emotions too. His claims and planks just don't bear full scrutiny.

Four Senators who were valiantly doing everything they could to kill a bad tax cut are deliberately misrepresented as tax-cut toadies when, as a last resort, they try to at least reduce the giveaway. That's pure political ugliness on your candidate's part, and for that alone, his claim of moral unassailability should be never heard again. I have yet to hear any of his supporters respond to this. One was even misrepresenting it, as he did, and when confronted, did not respond.

Deliberately misrepresenting, among others, three Senators from old slave-states as never talking about race in front of white audiences is absolutely incorrect, pompous and abusive; bellyaching about being called out about it is infantile. Snivelling that it's been said before, yet only now "opportunistically" brought up is ludicrous. If one gets away with a misrepresentation, do the gods on Olympus grant one the right to repeat it forever with no backlash? Privilege. That's something I hate more than anything else, and it's something he and many of his supporters display far and wide. Privilege is anti-democratic, and since he's touting himself as the true embodiment of the party, that needs to be addressed.

When Jody Powell called Tip O'Neill on election day 1980 to tell him that Carter was about to concede the race while the polls were still open, O'Neill reportedly said: "Good. You came into town like sons of bitches, it's good to see you going out like sons of bitches."

The biggest problem with the Dean campaign is Dean himself.

Some of his supporters even use terms like "old democrats"; how sweetly Rumsfeldian is that?

He has slung mud and innuendo, many times false, and now he's in the lead. If one is going to claim moral superiority, one ought to at least display basic decency. What gives him the right to just make things up that are slanderous and nasty and demand that nobody has the right to even question him on them? Does his claim that he wouldn't have voted for the Iraq resolution give him a trump card on any ethics or reality?

The Deanies just about own this board now; it's time to start behaving like the masters of all they survey instead of the insurgents who must destroy all opposition.

The very idea that someone who has constantly used personal attacks feels exempt from them in return--even when his targets are correct--will hurt him more than anything. We've already got a President who just makes things up, demands obedience and tells us what's good for us as if we're servants; we don't need another one.

[unfrigginreal]

24. Democracy Wing?

Is that the same wing that voted WITH Bush for the tax cut for the rich, and the Iraq War?

Deanies haven't been your problem...your problem is your candidates who are nothing more than GOP Lites.

[PurityOfEssence]

29. You're repeating the lie

Show me one of the candidates who voted for either of the tax cuts. Dean has deliberately talked about the "big group" do tar all of his opponents with the same big brush.

Please apologize to the six in question for this incorrect slander, and if you claim the least shred of integrity, promise us here that you'll never sling this falsehood again and correct it when you encounter it.

I don't think you're deliberately lying about it, I think you're responding to the distortion you've heard from Dean with the intended leap of logic. I think this "trick" is intentional from Dean, it's despicable; he wants people to think that the other Dems are servants to the ruling class on money issues, when at least 4 of the 6 are considerably more on the side of the economically challenged than he is, and the other two are at least as worker-friendly. NONE OF THE SIX VOTED FOR THE TAX CUTS.

Please respond. Don't you think Dean's deliberately attempting to distort with these continual statements?

One of the two Representatives and 3 of the 4 Senators voted for the Iraq Resolution, but one of each did not.

[xxqqqzme]

31. wondered how long it

would B B4 someone showed up and demonstrated exactly what the original post stated was his reason 2 back away. I think U clearly wrapped it up!

[PurityOfEssence]

46. Yes, abrasive and vigorous activists

are often thinskinned.

Our thread leader here at least admits his combativeness and accepts some responsibility, but he's been a serious agitator, clogging the board with many new threads, and getting very harsh in the bargain. It's all within the rules, but causality rules us all in the long run.

The concept that one's frustration entitles one to any tactics necessary is an anti-social one. It dismisses all others as inferiors and spreads the joy around.

How is it that the ones who were most responsible for initiating and perpetuating personal attacks can somehow adopt the pose of the persecuted? Oh, that's right: moral superiority. Okay, I'll accept that, but only if I SEE SOME.

[DemBones DemBones]

43. Hear, hear! The truth needs to be spoken more often. Dean

has displayed a sense of entitlement from the beginning, just like the Bush* sense of entitlement and inevitability in 1999-2000.

Dean and his supporters seem to forget that the people you piss off on the way to the lead are the people whose votes you need

[tjdee]

52. Great Post. n/t

[blm]

25. Think about what Dean did by calling liberal Democrats, "Bushlite"

and bashing the Democratic party. Did you applaud him? Did Dean's misrepresentations of them do any damage to those candidates? Did those words hurt longtime liberal activists who supported those candidates?

Reap what is sown.

[unfrigginreal]

26. You mean the "liberal Democrats" that voted for the war?

They are and have been Bushlite...and Kerry is one of the worst offenders.

[tjdee]

51. They are and HAVE BEEN?

The war is a big issue.

But for decades John Kerry was (and still is) a good Democrat, and for someone, of all people Howard "not a liberal" Dean, to put that into question, and for people on this board to forget about Kerry's LIBERAL record for years and years, that is a shame.

Honestly. I wonder sometimes if some people here even know anything about politics beyond last year.

[blm]

59. Did Dean and Deanies tell many of us that WE are no longer Democrats

and that WE are "Bushlite"...that's the ONLY game you want to play? Deanies attack, everyone else just shut up?

[Tinoire]

58. There's more to being a liberal than the war vote

While I cannot easily forgive Kerry or the others who enabled Bush, Kerry is far more liberal than Dean on social issues.

Just saying you think Bush should have delayed the beginning of the war by 60 days does not turn a Centrist or a Moderate into a Liberal.

The Dean supporter for whom I have the most respect is the one who told me from day 1 that she knew perfectly well he wasn't a liberal but was voting for him for x main reason which is the only reason that holds any weight in my book and for which I could vote for him.

I'm no huge fan of Kerry but Bush-lite is not Kerry; it's someone like Lieberman or Zell Miller.

If you're going to use their war vote as the determining criteria for what makes a Liberal then you'll have to seriously examine Dean's support of the war against Afghanistan and made several revealing comments about Syria and Iran?

You don't have to answer because this isn't a flame... Just think about it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. I Am

pro choice

pro decriminalization of drugs with an emphasis on treatment and rehabilitation

pro gay rights

pro affirmative action

pro free and fair trade

pro universal health care through a public/private system

pro multilateral foreign policy

pro strong defense

I am a traditional liberal in the pattern of Harry Truman, John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy...

[Tinoire]

69. No that was for Unfrigginreal

I don't care to examine everyone's personal beliefs. I was talking about Unfrigginreal stating that a proven Socially Liberal candidate forsakes the title "Liberal" for a matter of foreign policy, while a Moderate Centrist, who is not anti-war, is entitled to it for saying a few words.

[gulliver]

27. Don't be so sensitive.

There is a lot of "noise" on DU but a lot of "signal" too. Just ignore the BS.

[Terwilliger]

30. good luck in your future endeavors

for now, don't forget where the righteous anger of the left comes from (even though I don't know that you know anyway)

the revolution will not be televised

[Gman]

32. Good. Don't let the door hit you in the butt

You're either with us or against us. If you can't handle the traditional primary fights and think it's un-Democratic Party to attack Dean, then you don't know much about the party, do you?

And BTW, the un-Democratic Party stuff about attacking Dean sounds a lot like something I would expect to hear from John Asscroft.

[shance]

33. Thank you for the honest post. May I make a suggestion?

Don't give up. I can relate to so much of what you said.

I think we all get bogged down and at times feel like we dont belong anywhere.

I would agree 100% we are losing much of our power and effectiveness by not working harder to strengthen the ties to each other, and focus on those things we have in common to build better relationships with each other. There is a meetup for DU coming up and that is a great way for DU'ers to get to know each other. Bottom line: If we could (and I think we can) focus on our similarities versus our differences, we are off to a great start.

You and I are kindred spirits when it comes to Howard Dean. He knows how to keep everyone's eye on the prize. I hope he is our next president and want to do all that I can to see that become a reality. I gather you want that too. :)

You obviously are a person who cares a great deal or you wouldnt have taken the time to write this. I really admire and appreciate that. You are the type of person that is truly the definition of Dem in my opinion. ***

Thanks for the post and hang in!***

[Robin Hood]

35. Swing voter by 24, Republican by 30. If not there already.

I have seen this over and over. Young people try out Liberalism during their college years only to return to what they grew up with. Fruit don't fall far from the tree.

I can't tell you how many of my college friends have turned out to be freepers. In fact I am the only one that has held true to my convictions. It sucks because you don't know who to trust.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. My World View Hasn't Altered in Any Discernable Way Since I Was

eighteen years old...

I agree with some but not all of the original poster's positions except I am pro free trade and pro affirmative action....

[Cocoa]

36. is this because of Al Sharpton?

instead of leaving the party, why don't you think about what Sharpton is saying? Trust me, what he's saying is true and important, even if it shakes up your mindset.

[JohnKleeb]

38. I like the Reverend Al

I saw him speak in DC at the first anti war rally I went to. He was great, the way he says things and explains them make a lot of sense. I saw an old Chris Rock episode, and this was just before the selection so Al was Chris's guest. Al said and I got a kick of this although I am not black myself, that we are still looking for the blacks who voted for Lazio. I got a chuckle of that yet my jaw dropped when he mentioned how badly Bush would fuck up the world. He was so right.

[Cocoa]

44. wow, lucky you

I've seen Jesse Jackson speak, but not Sharpton. I actually find Sharpton gets across much better than Jackson.

God, isn't it fantastic having all these voices on our side, including your boy Dennis. And I know it bugged some people, but I LOVED hearing Joe say "Amen" to Al. I thought it said a lot about our party. :-)

[MODemocrat]

37. When the going gets tough, a democrat gets tougher

Why not stay in the midst of this; don't let it get you down. Howard Dean has worked so hard to make it this far, so why give it up now?
I'll go down fighting for DEAN.

[DemBones DemBones]

39. And after going down fighting for Dean, will you vote for the Dem

nominee? Or will you leave the Party if Dean's not the nominee?

[shance]

41. I like that! Thats a keeper MO

Should be a REQUIRED mantra for all Dems

Its bumper sticker material as well....***

thanks.

;-)

[DemLikr]

40. Pouting will get U nowhere. (I know.) Think it over, come back soon.

We'll be waiting with open arms. :D

[Jolene]

42. What leadership doesn't seem to understand

is that when they speak so highly of the 'swing' voter, they don't figure in the fact that the 'liberal' vote is no longer a 'given.'

[rucky]

45. Yep! Either way...

...people are going to leave the Dems after this election - whether it'll come from the left or the center depends on the nominee (but most likely the left). That's the problem with having such a big tent. Nader should just sit this one out and watch the Green party grow.

[Oracle]

47. Shit, politics is mean tough and passionate. I have no sympathy for you.

Or any other sissy-ass who decides I'm being rude and too tough...I say fuck off to them as well...this my opinion, I'm not hurting anyone and I am stating facts...pay attention...as if I give a shit what these clowns think of me...get their own house in order and stop pointing the finger at others who give their opinions...state it with FACTS as I shall do....

What did you expect nice,nice? I can't understand ANYONE who doesn't have strong ideology. I have absolutely no respect for people on this forum who get their panties twisted, if one says ones true feeling about their candidate. This is an open forum for exchange of ideas and OPINIONS!

The republican ideology is ALWAYS first and foremost to cripple the “New Deal” they know they can’t do away with it completely so with wars and tax cuts they under fund and cripple it…I’m speaking of all social programs (including their distain for minimum wage and unemployment insurance, medical benefits for employees.)

The republican ideology is to say fuck the environment, clean air and water. They see it as stifling to business interest including the people who make up the republican party oil, lumber and coal companies. while the poor and middle class pay for clean ups, spills and toxicity.

The republican ideology is always tax cuts for the rich, privatizing everything (our schools via vouchers, Social Security for their business friends can you imagine people if they invested, some did, their retirement in Enron)To deregulate all business, so no one is watching or any regulations as they gough and rip off comsumers.

The republican ideology is huge military buildup and spending and who always receives the bulk of the billions the Halliburton’s, Boeing, General Electric, etc. etc. republicans love to expand big government (for themselves, they always point the finger at the Dems, but just look at the last five republican presidents.)

The republican ideology is to discriminate, against gay people, women, minorities (show me one african-American republican in the Senate or in Congress, they are racist!))Republicans want more control over our civil liberties and our personal rights and freedoms to control.

This is republican ideology, which never changes of course because it's what the republican party is, has always been and always will be, IT'S THEIR FUCKING AGENDA AND THEY ARE MAKING IT POLICY WITH PEOPLE WHO VOTE REPUBLICAN!

To be fucking wishy washy and even consider voting republican makes me fucking sick.

And I have no sympathy what so ever, that oh your feelings were hurt with all this bickering about your candidate!

Shit, make a decision, get off the fence and stick with it. become a Green or a Democrat or start your own party but if you swing right (republican, even once...then good fucking riddance to you!!!!!!

[Deja Q]

48. I'm a swing voter, too - proud to be one

I don't do drugs (illegal ones) and I obey the law like a good little sheep.

I support human achievement. Humanity has done some dumb things over the eons, but it's done some remarkable stuff as well. To not support it would be wrong.

Capitalism has been perverted. I know it was once good thanks to a 1950s Warner Bros cartoon where Elmer Fudd taught Sylvester the Cat how to use money. (and the fact that even a man like Archie Bunker could have a job that paid well enough for him to buy a home and raise a child without the need of the wife having to work says a lot about corporate america's past as well.)

What "ideology" from the left? Gore merely would have continued Clinton's practices, and Clinton was hardly "left". He shunned all left-ness when he sacked Jocelyn Elders for being too brave and trying to get Americans to be more than spoon-fed sheep on a subject. :-( Politicians have this credo for playing on peoples' emotions rather than getting them to think. A thinking person tends to be their enemy, especially if they don't agree with them in the end.

And what's popular isn't always what's right or what's best; the right-wing are definitely wrong and the "moderate left" are wrong for supporting the status quo when we all know the status quo is ultimately finite. America needs Progressives; and they're the people being called anti-american (amongst everything else) from every other aspect of society. We're the lot who might even say with glee "We told you so" when the time comes, though we may be mature enough not to by then.

On foreign policy, we'll be damn lucky if other countries ever take us credibly again. Personally, it's the "splintered nationalisms of humanity" that allows wars and hate to happen. (In any country you can think of, average citizens just want to live in peace -- it's "leadership" which has always been corrupt to varying levels and corrupts the people via their dishonesty. An honest leader? Never! Reagan was the epitomy of American corruption, though Bush II is rapidly taking over the role. And other countries are just as phony, telling the smae story about everyone else being evil to their citizens, who'll swallow it all like mindless sheep.)

I'm pro-environment as well. Our industries shouldn't fuck up the environment that we all share and can't escape from it we ruin it. Our industries shouldn't be reliant on an energy source which, when it runs out, spells the end of advanced society as we know it. We claim to care about our children and their futures, but our actions show we don't give a fuck about anything except ourselves, here and now. Our children are going to despise us for our hypocrisy, just wait and see. And I do know that alternative fuel methods exist. The problem is, "they cost too much, it's not cost-effective, we'll lose our profits. :cry: :cry: :cry: " If everything has to be based on money and the acquisition, the cesspool shithole we're in now happens. Society should be about sustaining and improving itself for the future. As it happens, humanity is (currently) just another pointless despicable selfish savage animal race with big toys!!!

Go ahead and swing. But don't you dare say one word of hate about me or my party when I vote Green or some other political party - for I swing with them when I can and only vote for the lesser evil when I know there's a greater evil at work. (which makes me a part of the problem often enough as well, I should be bold enough to vote my conscious and hope enough others do too.)

If you believe me to be a communist, socialist, progressive, subversive, free-thinker, go right ahead. I'M PROUD TO BE IT! And hopefully I'll get to say "I told you so" before I die. At which point humanity can destroy itself because I won't be in a helpless position to merely care. It'll be too late anyway, as it's too late now.

[BackDoorMan]

49. But your a toad.

Your meant to be hopping back and forth.
I can't argue with nature.

[whirlygigspin]

50. it is strange

The establishment democrats in DC have been vilified,
called the worst form of scum in the universe by the
republican right for years, yet poor little Howie Dean
becomes the object of their wrath for saying what most
people in my town say: "where are the democrats?"
"why don't they fight back?" Howard Dean did not invent
this, he simply repeated what people where telling him.

All this feigned offence belies contempt.

If little Howie Dean is not smart enough to mend fences
with the DC establiment after at least one or two primaries,
so be it. Just keep in mind that Howie Dean went from being
dissmissed out of hand, to front runner in a few short months.

If the democratic party prefers old hacks to fresh ideas, so
be it. But don't go blaming locked out progressives for being
disenchanted if you lose.

[MoonRiver]

53. I don't think any of US need to politically label ourselves.

Honestly, anybody can swing if he/she likes a candidate. WHY NOT? I've heard many Repubs will swing toward Dean, or particularly Clark (if he runs). What we want is the best person leading our country. One thing I know above all is that ain't George Bush. A Green can't win. That leaves the 2004 Dem candidate as the only viable vote. Search your soul long and hard on this one.

[Oracle]

60. And you would fucking swing to a republican?

[MoonRiver]

63. I didn't say that. Matter of fact I said the opposite!

But, why DOES anyone need to label him/herself politically? If one wants to do so fine (I joined the Dem party after selection 2000), bu on the grand scheme of things I don't think it means a hill of beans.

[aquart]

55. Bully for you. National crisis, you turn into a waffle.

I eat waffles with syrup.

[Solomon]

56. See Ya. Wouldn't wanna be ya.

Go ahead. Go on over to the republicans where you belong. The democratic party will never get anywhere toadying to the fence sitters. Maybe that was a good thing to do in the past, but in today's new world order, you gotta make your choice.

It's no good being "republican lite." Everybody is sooo scared of losing you guys. I say so what, go, go, go where you belong and stop holding us back.

Just remember, years from now, when you finally become enlightened to the inevitable, i.e. that you can't stop effect from following cause, we'll be waiting for ya.

[jonnyblitz]

62. Very thoughtful post. I have similiar feelings but I have realized I am

much farther to the left then the average DUer I think....I sometimes believe I shouldnt even post my rants because I know to expect to be totally annoyed by what I read and, to me, its like going to Vegas and being stunned and bitching that gambling is going on ! So I take a break every once in awhile..The people that are nice are really really nice despite any political difference I might have with them.

[robbedvoter]

64. "Go on, fall in love, but after the primaries, fall in line" Clinton said

right after saying that Dems want to fall in love white GOP-ers just want to fall in line. I do know that your candidate doesn't believe in that:

> Commenting on Wesley Clark's possible candidacy in an
> interview with L.A. Weekly, Dean explained:
> "It's going to be very hard to start late," he says, "and think
> you're going to do well in Iowa and New Hampshire. It's going to be
> incredibly hard. I mean, we've already got 39,000 people working for
> us all around the country ... I really do believe--and I think about
> this--I want to get this nomination, and if I don't ... these kids
> are not transferrable. I can't just go out and say, 'Okay, so I
> didn't win the nomination, so go ahead and vote for the Democrats.'
> They're not going to suddenly just go away. That's not gonna
> happen."
> --
> http://www.laweekly.com/ink/printme.php?eid=46660
So, I am not really surprised you are clueless about the process,
What surprises me is that you are clueless about what's at stake. My candidate, whom you mercilessly attacked from day one was asked yesterday:
"Which candidate are you going to hurt most?"
"The pResident" he said (Clark on CNN yesterday)

[janekat]

65. Welcome to the REAL world of politics...

It ain't pretty. Some can hack it and some can't.

[gottaB]

66. Chill, but not for long.

If your guy wins the nomination, he's going to need high turnout to decisively beat Bush. That means women, and African Americans, and leftists and others who tend to support affirmative action, gun control, and, on the international front, multilateralism, because it reduces conflict and alleviates the most deleterious impacts of warfare.

These concerns can be "ideological," but they are also pragmatic. That's how Democrats win elections, by putting together a broad coalition of diverse interests. I'm sure Dean understands that, and you should to.

Think of the things that are truly important to you. Not the things that make your blood boil, but the things you can rationally say matter in government. My guess is the Democrats have more to offer you than the Republicans--and it stands to reason, after all Dean is most definitely a Democrat, and he still appeals to you.

With that in mind, my advice to you, for what it's worth, is to take a cue from some of your fellow Dean supporters like Eloriel, or from Dean himself. The Dean campaign must reach out to minorities, and in particular African Americans, becauase if he somehow wins the nomination without their support (a distinct possibility), it could well be a Pyrrhic victory. To beat Bush, the Democrats will need their votes en masse.

gotta run

[HFishbine]

68. Don't shoot yourslef in the foot

I changed from dem to unafiliated a couple of years ago because my local and state dems were caving on environmental and labor issues. I still get to vote in the democratic primary in my state though, if I choose.

If you're going to oficially change your affiliation, make sure you can still vote in the dem primary in your state.

[NNN0LHI]

70. Which party did you belong to before the 2000 Selection? n/t

[w4rma]

71. If you think the primary is awful, wait until you see what the GOP tosses

Bush will have $200+ million in campaign funding to fight us with. To put that in perspective, Vice President Al Gore raised ~$45 million and Bush raised about ~$100 million when they were campaigning during the primaries.

This campaign will possibly be the dirtiest in history. What you're seeing now is normal for all primaries. Dems are going to need your help this election. Dems are going to need everyone's help.

Despite Bush's miserable failures, this election is going to be one of the hardest ever. $200 million is two times the most ever used in a campaign. $100 million was the former record, also set by Bush*.

Democracy is war. It's a war without (as much) death and destruction. This democratic civil-war will affect the lives of folks living everywhere in the world and their children.

I hope you'll reconsider both your party affiliation and DU, poskonig.

Here's an article I found interesting that might give you more insight into what's going on right now:
Democrats in Congress Ponder Dean
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/14/national/14MEMO.html?ex=1064116800&en=1aeeba07a2481519&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=39070

[fujiyama]

72. Politics is tough

and I don't blame ya for not wanting a part in it. I've always wondered what part I want to have in it, considering I am close to age in you, am in college majoring in engineering, and am not very vocal, though I am still opinionated and love discussing politics.

Your views are similar to mine. I too am not very much in favor of race based affirmative action (I am assuming that's the type you meant), do not place importance on gun control, am not necessarily multilateralist on every issue and even somewhat hawkish (though I believe Iraq was a disasterous blunder and this administration has done a horrible job in Afghanistan as well), but lean left on most social issues, but am fairly moderate on economics issues. I don't do drugs and I follow the law.

However I have realized that I am a liberal. I am not going to call myself "progressive", because that's a non offensive way of saying liberal.

I am a liberal, though not a leftist. The word "liberal" has been allowed by us to be hijacked and defamed by those on the right. As Wesley Clark said, "We are a LIBERAL democracy". I consider myself democratic and would wholeheartedly vote for any democratic candidate over Bush (though I would prefer Clark, Kerry, Dean, or even Graham).

While I understand your cynicism, I don't know if there are any real advantages in being a swing voter. Your views are pretty mainstream in the democratic party (in the center somewhere), and would urge you to find a way such that you can atleast vote in the democratic primary. The the absolute least you can do is understand the world around you and vote according to those beliefs. I would hope that also entails voting democratic. Not wanting to volunteer is understandable though even casual political discourse is healthy (if it is rational and intelligent -- not freeperlike), and convincing casual aquantences and friends of the wrongs purpotrated by Bush in this nation would be a help.

I noticed one thing from the 2000 election relating to swing voters. They are fickle minded and often superficial. They voted against Al Gore because he was "mean" or some other such nonsense. They believed Bush was a "nice guy", inspite of his wretched record in Texas as govenor. You must not fall into that trap. You look like you won't because your politics are somewhat defined.