Race vs. Poverty

[Fixated]

I think that too often, when the race card is played, it seems as though the word "black" could be replaced with "poverty-stricken." Clearly, disproportionate black poverty is a huge problem in the U.S. But that is one issue. Take Sharpton's statements about blacks without Internet access. Do they lack access because they're black, or because they are poor? Black people in my area, which is upper-middle class, tend to be just as wealthy as the whites. They have Internet access. Whites living in ghettoes don't. So is the issue race or wealth?

Affirmative action. People argue it with two basic concepts: we need diversity; and blacks/minorities have been left behind over the course of history, leading to their current abysmal situation. Now, take the second point. These people are now in poverty because of their being mistreated, which was because of their race. Again, as it stands, the problem is now poverty. Hence the idea that affirmative action should be based on class, not race. (Avoid debating the need for diversity, that's a seperate topic).

Too often people like Sharpton equate "black" with poor, which, while there are far too many poor blacks, makes it seem like they are the only ones in their situation. We shouldn't be helping them because they are minorities, we should be helping them because they need help.

There are events that smack of racism, where it is perfectly logical to play the race card. Admissions officers in college rejecting applicants due to race, etc. But in many situations, leaders tend to veer away from the actual problem and slap a colored face on it to gain political support from civil rights activists.

[tjdee]

1. Are more blacks/hispanics poor than whites?

Where YOU live (and I live too, actually), black people may be as wealthy as white people, but I don't believe that overall, that is the case.

I'll go look for some statistics on the issue--anyone else got numbers?

[Fixated]

2. ...

You've missed the point. I am positive that black/hispanic poerty levels are higher than whites.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Most African Americans And Hispanics Are Solidly Middle Class

but a greater % of members of both groups live below the poverty line than whites...

[loudnclear]

14. 19% of American consider themselves to be in the upper 1%

That was a finding of a survey reported on this board a few months ago.
It points to the fact that many poor whites do not even consider themselves to be 'poor' just simply because they are NOT black or rather because they ARE white. It's been a tactic of the power elite to make them think they are better off than they are that blacks and hispanics are a sub-class. It's how they were able to get poor whites to fight and kill themselves in the Civil War while the landed gentry sat back and built their riches. It's exactly how we have the children of the poor fighting in Iraq now.

As far as the Internet goes...many poor people, black and white, don't really give a damn about the Internet...they are too busy working two or three jobs to survive.

[Name removed]

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[Isome]

39. It takes 10 of them pooling their SSI checks to rent a house

There you go again with that intimate knowledge of other people's lives. How do you know? Did you ask? If your neighborhood is middle class, why do you go to these poor neighborhoods, to see how the other half lives? Is it that you know of one house full of people sitting on the porch and drinking from a paper bag, or have you seen every house in all the poor neighborhoods and have somehow gotten personal information on all of the occupants?

It matters not if they're white, what matters is that you've identified them as poor and believe you know why they are, and that they have chosen to stay that way because of their love of alcohol or other drugs. I'm certain you're making assumptions and trying to turn anecdote into argument.

Noelle Bush would be a crackwhore in some derelict crackhouse, or on the street panhandling for change, if not for her rich & powerful family. Does she enjoy it? I bet she doesn't. I would never assume that those without rich & powerful family connections would choose to be poor and addicted to drugs.

Cranky? No. ...intolerant of bullshit? Yes.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. I Wasn't Going By Self Identification

I was going by income...


As a former social science student I know self identification questions on social class are misleading. Nobody like to admit they are super rich or super poor. That's why folks like the Rockefellers would probably say they were middle class.

[Fixated]

3. .....

This is why I don't usually post things with intellectual content...

[AP]

4. If you're a minority and you aren't poor you're still held back.

For women, it's the glass ceiling. You might rise to the top of middle management, but if the executive floor is loaded with people with race and gender prejudices, their interst in progress might stop at the top of middle management.

[Fixated]

5. ....

Once you get there....I'm talking about referring to blacks when you really mean the poor. "Blacks don't have computers" etc.

[InkAddict]

17. Some Women's Glass Ceiling Experience

began on entering their childhood front door.

[Yupster]

6. If your underlying point is

that maybe affirmative action should be based on poverty instead of race, I would agree with you.

Especially at premier colleges like Harvard the kids that are let in by AA are not from the ghetto. They are usually middle or more likely upper class kids whose dad may be a doctor or professor. I don't see the reason of giving Quincy Jones' kid an advantage over mine, but when you're talking Harvard, that's the type of kid who gets in.

The CEO of my corporation Ken Chenault (American Express) is black. Are there really people out there who think Ken's kids are underpriviledged and need special advantages over my kid?

Maybe if Ken's kid is on his yacht and it sinks, he may need special help from the coast guard that my kid wouldn't need.

[Alenne]

7. Ken Chenault's kid wouldn't get advantages over your kid

just because they are black. Affirmative Action does not apply to every black person who goes to college.
Why do you believe just because Quincy Jones' kids are black they have a racial advantage over your kids? Maybe his kid is just smarter than yours. His kids can be black and smart.

[Blue_Chill]

12. So what?

Why shouldn't all poor be aided. Why only minority poor?

[Alenne]

13. At some colleges the poor are aided

I can't say all because I don't know that. Some colleges do take your economic situation into consideration. Poor white people are not being kept out of college because of poor black people.

[Yupster]

19. I thought the U of Michigan

gave 20 points for being black. Did it not give those points if the kid owned a yacht? I thought it was to every black kid.

[Alenne]

21. Out of 150 points

Those 20 points don't get you into the college. They also give 20 points for economically disadvantage kids and 16 pts. for living in the Upper Peninsula region which is overwhelmingly white.

Anyway you said Harvard. Jones' and Chenault's children go to some of the best private schools in the country. They are not getting into schools because they are black. They are getting in because their parents were able to afford to give them a good education.

[Yupster]

22. I think the point's been made

regardless of distractions.

Mr. Chenault's kids would get 20 points for being black. Since neither he nor I live on the upper peninsula, that extra gift wouldn't apply nor would the poverty extras.

It would just be a priviledged black kid who has gone to every finishing school available and my middle class white son, and his kid with every priviledge in the world would get 20 extra points. Can't support that. It doesn't even make any sense to me.

[Alenne]

23. Points CAN be given for an underrepresented minority

Can be does not mean it will be. Not every black person that applies to the school gets the 20 points.

[zoidberg]

34. But he would get an advantage because he is black

Quincy Jones' kid might be able to get into Harvard on his own merit. I have no clue and don't really care. But that isn't the point. The point is that Quincy Jones' kid will automatically be given favorable treatment at many universities and jobs simply because of his race. Most universities and big corporations bend over backwards to attract qualified minorities. They don't tend to care about unqualified minorities - the group that needs the most help.

[EeJay]

10. Ken's kids

Yes, Ken Chenault's kids are wealthy, but they are still likely to be discriminated against, particularly in situations in which people don't know who their parents are. Unfortunately, one of the realities of this country is that minorities, regardless of their wealth or status, are still discriminated against in far too many instances.

But that's not the only reason for affirmative action. Affirmative action is not only about opportunities for minorities. It's about diversity and how it helps to enhance the educational experience of all of the university community. It's important for students - of all races - to know that all African Americans are not poor and disadvantaged. Being exposed to middle, upper middle and upper class minority students can be a valuable experience for other students.

Sadly, too few white people have been exposed to a broad range of minorities and often go through life clinging to certain stereotypes that seek to freeze minorities into roles that maintain the indicia of inferiority, regardless of their background and achievements.

Sort of like the black federal judge who was appointed by the Chief Justice of the United States to head the federal courts' Committee on the Bicentennial of the Constitution. During a break in the meeting of the Committee at the Greenbriar Hotel, this judge stepped outside for some fresh air. As he stood there, another hotel guest walked up to him, tossed him his keys and said, "Boy, take care of my car." Now, of course, that guest would NEVER have spoken to this man in such a manner had he known he was a federal judge, hand-selected by the Chief Justice to direct an important national effort. But, he didn't know that. To him, this was just a black man - actually a 71-year-old "boy" whose sole mission was to serve his needs.

Or the time that Vernon Jordan, arriving at a federal building for a meeting with the department Secretary, was confronted by a white security guard who look at him and then in his back window and demanded to know, "Who are you driving?" At that moment, he was no longer Vernon Jordan, wealthy major power broker, confidant of presidents - he was just a black man in a Mercedes who must have been some white man's chauffeur.

We still have a long way to go. And affirmative action is one thing that will help us get there.

[Yupster]

20. Poor Vernon Jordan

Sorry, but I don't feel for him.

He's got the clout to get $ 90,000 job offers for his friend's bimbo when she needs to get out of town, from corporations where he sits on the board.

When my friend needs help because his bimbo is causing trouble, all I can offer is my guest room for a night.

[Isome]

27. I don't feel for him

Of course you don't. Why should you? You're not the one being stigmatized for your skin color, despite your successes, or lack thereof, in life. He is; it's his problem, not yours. We understand, do carry on and don't give it another thought.

Affirmative action can never modify attitudes, but it can curb behaviors that stigmatize, penalize, or somehow impede anyone, including women and people with black, brown, yellow, or red skin.]

The problem is that people are so fixated on people of African descent, they fail to recognize that Affirmative Action has always, and will always benefit other people as well. In fact, white women benefit from Affirmative Action far more than Blacks. The entire Civil Rights movement wasn't solely a benefit to Black people, everyone benefited from that effort, which was largely fought by people of African descent.

[AP]

35. but not for the color of his skin, he might have been POTUS

See how racism works?

[Mairead]

40. Nice example

Surprisingly often, racism, sexism, and other '-isms' cluster together, in the same people.

[Nikia]

9. I see your point

Although a higher percent of blacks are poor, there are more poor whites. Although it may benefit Sharpton and some other leaders to portray oppression of the poor as oppression of blacks, it can also be detrimental. Some middle class and above whites see poverty as only a black problem while ignoring poor whites. Regardless, poverty is a big problem in this country.
As far as affirmative action, I think for employment still would be based on race. I think there are still many hiring managers that continue to assume that the young white attractive man is always the right person for the job. As far as college admissions, some colleges do try to recruit outstanding poor students. This usually involves offering generous need based scholarships. I don't know if they are given any preferences in admission. The poor white students that I knew at my college seemed to be average or above students in comparison to other students at my college. I think that all poor students should be informed about financial aid early on, like elementary school. I know of some poor adults who are fairly bright that have told me stories about losing motivation in school after they were told by their parents that there is no way that they could go to college anyway (financially). Schools in poor areas should do more to encourage their students, as well. My school seemed to want to push everyone into tech school and didn't seemed not to teach to the college prep student.

[EeJay]

11. Affirmative Action

One of the things that got lost in the yelling about affirmative action in the U of Michigan case is the fact that the University has all manner of affirmative action for white students. In addition to the legacies, athletic admissions, and geographic preferences that drastically favor white applicants, the University also gives extra points to white students who attend predominantly black high schools. Such students get an additional 10 points - the same amount of points that black students get. Interestingly, the women who sued for discrimination didn't question THAT particular facet of the school's effort to ensure diversity in its student body.

By the way, John Edwards has created a College for Everyone initiative that will guarantee every high school student who agrees to work 10 hours a week that they can attend a state college or university free of charge for their first year. Not bad, no?

[jody]

15. This is one difficult topic to discuss, but I have some stats from

recent analysis I did of one state's education system using data available on the state department of education's web site.

My analysis was quick and dirty, but the data suggests that "% free lunches" for a a school's student body, an accepted measure of poverty, explained about 75% of the variation in student performance on such tests as SAT and ACT. When "% black students" is added to the model, explained variation increases by perhaps 2% or less and that is suspect.

Obviously, poverty is a major factor associated with poor student performance on tests, with performance decreasing as poverty increases. Whatever cause poverty might also cause poor performance by students on tests. Whether that cause is nature or nuture would make a good research project.

[Nikia]

16. In poor schools

Students are treated as though they will fail. Classes are not aimed at the college prep student. Anti intellectualism is embraced by all. In richer districts, the opposite is true and most students succeed. Do you think that is just coincidence?
Individually, poor students have more to worry about than richer students in terms of having their basic needs met. Some poor parents may not encourage their children either because of jealousy or a defeatist attitude ("My child never can go to college anyway.") Poorer students may be more likely to live in single parent homes and in higher crime areas, which may also affect them. There is also the issue of preschool preparation with poorer parents not being able to send their children to private preschools or buying books and other educational aids for their children.

[jody]

18. I'm not an educator, but my experience agrees with your comments.

AWOL and Paige are touting a system that "teaches the test" and seems doomed to create a permanent underclass qualified only to enlist in the "US Foreign Legion".

As far as AWOL and Paige are concerned, :puke:

[spooky3]

33. what happens when the order of entry is reversed?

These two variables are highly correlated so it is possible that race would explain much more of the variance if it is entered first. Or, you could enter them simultaneously.

[sandnsea]

26. Black unemployment twice whites

There is still racism in America. It manifests itself in a lack of opportunity resulting in poverty and prison. This country has plenty of money to address poverty and race and that is the only moral thing to do. Let's stand up for both minorities and the poor and not let the Republican party make an issue where there shouldn't be one.

[Isome]

28. You wrote: Again, as it stands, the problem is now poverty.

That's where you're hopelessly wrong. Wait, I'll back up. Your first wrong is in parroting the buzzwords/phrases of the GOP: "race card". They love to instill fear and loathing in white people with the use of catchphrases that downplay or oversimply an issue; try to avoid them.

The problem is not just poverty alone. The problem lies with the combined obstacle of poverty and discrimination based on skin color.

Apparently a few of the thread's participants are hip to the anti-racist writings of Tim Wise. But, to shed more light on the issue I have additional excerpts from one of his essays about UofM admissions:

...the U of M offers 20 "extra" points to the typical Black, Latino or indigenous applicant, while offering various combinations worth up to 58 extra points for students who will almost all be white. But while the first of these are seen as examples of racial preferences, the second are not, hidden as they are behind the structure of social inequities that limit where people live, where they go to school, and the kinds of opportunities they have been afforded. White preferences, the result of the normal workings of a racist society, can remain out of sight and out of mind, while the power of the state is turned against the paltry preferences meant to offset them.

[Mairead]

29. When Danny Glover, wealthy and with one of the best-known faces

in the world can't get a cab in Manhattan; when people are rousted for 'driving while Black'; when having a 'Black name' means your resume is less likely to produce an interview; when threads like these occur...

then we should all realise that we still need 'race'-based AA!

Black people are treated unfairly all the time in ways to which White people --even the ones doing the treating-- are totally oblivious. Ninety-nine percent of the time it's not even intended, but it happens anyway because racism is too ingrained, too much part of everyday life.

It used to be a journalistic norm that if a Black person was arrested, their racial membership was reported in the newspaper. When called on it, journalists were bewildered--they couldn't understand why race wasn't relevant. It took a long time--into the '70s--to change the practice.

There are a million 'little' things like that that still go on every day.

[TheDonkey]

36. Just because you're black & have money doesn't mean racism is a non-issue.

There is a large problem when middle class, upper class, and LOWER CLASS, blacks cannot find work and cannot be accepted in higher learning as readily as whites.

[blindpig]

37. divide & conquer

the fact that we're having this conversation here at DU speaks volumes for the effiency of the tactics used to manage us proles since the beginning. stick a fork in us, we're done.