Rating Clinton

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Poll question: Rating Clinton

I see alot of Clinton bashing on this board and as a Democrat since birth it saddens me. Although I have been voting since 1976 Clinton was only the second winner at the presidential level I voted for. I remember how excited I was on election day in 1992 and how my cool boss took all one dozen of her employees across the street to a loungue where we could watch Clinton's Inauguration Speech. And the Inaugural parties were so cool to watch with groups like REM, Ten Thousand Maniacs and Don Henley. Natalie Merchant singing "To Sir With Love" to Bill Clinton was so neat...

Enough with the nostalgia....

Clinton argued that gays should serve in the military. He passed the Family Medical Leave Act after *41 vetoed it. He tried to pass universal health care. He passed the defecit reduction act and his economic stewardship gave us the greatest economy in the history of the republic.. He gave us progressive Supreme Court justices Steven Breyer and Ruth Bader Ginsburg....

I miss him...

Here's the poll question

[JohnKleeb]

1. I liked him although I am a radical leftist ;) but he was pretty good

I think the GOP treated him horribly. He was very likable for me. I grew up with him in the white house and proudly defended him from right wingers. So overall I think Clinton was a good president. The best in my lifetime that is and a good guy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. I Was So

happy that I actually voted for a winner everything else was commentary....

[Brucey]

5. I feel pretty much the same, was lukewarm about him for a long time, but

came to his defense when I saw the right attacking him unrelentingly. I'm a radical anarchist, but Clinton was about as good as we can get, and I loved it compared to the despair we now must endure.

[JohnKleeb]

7. He was a winner literally and in another way

Of course he was a winner in that he won two elections but he also was a winning guy, who had grown up poor in Arkansas yet worked hard and became governor at 33, and worked hard too. My philosophy teacher who was playing devils advocate asked who the nation would prefer simple shrub or Clinton the elitist, he was playing devil's advocate obviously I know the man is not a republican or likes bush so I asked isnt that kinda silly in that Bush is the son of a rich man who didnt work hard to put himself through school and Bill Clinton was the son of a man he never knew and a nurse. Bill was a good president. I was lucky to have him in my early years.

[Lizz612]

15. Good guy to grow up with

I agree John, I think I was lucky to grow up during a time of peace and prosperity. And now that that's over I'm glad to have the chance to vent in a place like this. (I'm such an optimist in the long term.) I read "All too human" a few months ago, I almost wish I remembered that stuff.

[DFLforever]

25. I tend to agree with Gore Vidal

who considered Clinton the 'most able executive' since FDR



edited for punctuation

[kayleybeth]

53. I miss Clinton

He used to piss me off occasionally when he was president, but oh, how I miss that man now. He was not perfect but the world was a better place when he was president, IMHO.

[old dog]

59. He did damage

"I think the GOP treated him horribly. He was very likable for me. I grew up with him in the white house and proudly defended him from right wingers. So overall I think Clinton was a good president. The best in my lifetime that is and a good guy."

I grew old while he was in the white house so, I have seen real presidents....yes, the right treated him badly but, did he have to give them so much ammo? He'd be a great drinking buddy but as president, I think he did a lot of damage to our party...time to cut our losses and stop pretending he helped us...same goes for Hillary.

You want a great president, try Kennedy

[Capn Sunshine]

3. Partisanship aside

Clinton will be sen by history as a great president who was enormously popular both domestically and overseas. The undenialble progress made by his administration will not be wiped away by partisan sniping about his lack of progressivity.

Top 10 definitely. Top 5 , perhaps. I'm too close to know.
I've said my piece, I won't respond to anything else,but flame away.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. He's Rated In The Middle Of The Pack By Historians

around 22nd....

If it wan't for Monica he'd be in the top third....


He was the most popular American president abroad since John Kennedy...

[JohnKleeb]

9. I'd say so he is very popular overseas

The Irish love him you know?

[wuushew]

10. Yes a true triumph of diversity

Our first Black-Irish President!

[JohnKleeb]

16. heh

just wait until you meet her first Croatian-Irish president. Clinton has Irish blood I think, I get the black reference. The Irish I know like Kennedy of course. I dont think they have much love for Ronnie though even though Ronnie is Irish, yes Irish DUers but heh who cares, the Kennedy family being Irish overlaps that by a longshot.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. For Bringing Peace To That Troubled Region

[JohnKleeb]

14. I know

I was reading in Sports Illistrated yes SI that the Irish put a statue of him at a gulf course and it really pissed off the American Businessmen.

[VermontDem2004]

28. I have that issue of SI

Some sports columnist talks about a round of golf with Clinton.

[Pepperbelly]

13. "historians" do not have nearly ...

enough time from his presidency to make even a guess. What they say, by necessity, HAS to reflect their own partisan feelings because frankly, the real material upon which historians rely isn't even available yet.

The so-called study that came to this conclusion was just trying to bash for USA Today, just what they paid for. And remember this: the right wing will attempt to re-write history by co-opting historians and paying them to sing the party line.

Screw them.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. I Don't Know Which Study

it was but putting Clinton in the middle of the pack is no slam imho....


Winning big wars and ending major economic criseses score give big points for presidents with historians....

on edit- I would put Clinton in the top third....

[diplomats]

20. As I said below, I believe he'll eventually move up

We need to wait at least a decade probably and see what they say. I think they stuck him in the middle because he had great strengths and obvious weaknesses. As time passes, his economic and other accomplishments will be better appreciated and his impeachment put in perspective. I think Bush's terrible record makes Clinton's look much better in comparison. If we go into another long stretch of deficit spending people will say, "Remember the last time we had a surplus? It was under Clinton." Nothing the RW says can change that. Eventually the truth will out.

[diplomats]

18. It's too early for historians to get a good take on him

It's going to take time to put him in perspective. I think he'll ultimately end up in the teens and perhaps in the top third. Presidents almost always move up or down after their initial rating. In Clinton's case he'll move certainly move up when he does get reassessed.

[Alenne]

4. He was a good President

There are things he could have done and things he shouldn't have done. I didn't agree with everything he did but I didn't expect to.

[wuushew]

6. His biggest strength was

that he seemed to take his job seriously, I disagreed with him on many policy stances but he did a very effective job of balancing reasonable goals vs. what was possible in an obstructionist congress.

[eauclaireliberal]

12. The Big Dog, IMHO:

The Big Dog, IMHO, was the best president we have ever had in over 50 years. Maybe 100+. Problem is though, he let his priorities get out of whack: When you have the sharks circling your boat, you don't throw out buckets of blood. I don't give a rat's ass about "The Monica incident": That was an issue between him and Hillary, no one else. I just thought he'd have the sense to keep us out of it, too.
We have been left with the shit that nightmares are made of.

[ronnykmarshall]

19. Bring back BILL!

I love President Clinton!

[TahitiNut]

21. Clinton was slightly better than mediocre -- a C+ or B- in my book.

Without Perot's candidacy in 92 and 96, Clinton would probably be a footnote in the history books. Without the insane reichwing attacks, legitimate critiques of his socioeconomic policies may have been heard. (Few appreciate how much 'cover' such rabid attacks offered his more anti-Democratic policy moves.) His administration's fiscal policies, in no small part attributable to an oppositional Congress, were moderate to conservative and rational. Civil liberties (under the War on <some> Drugs) deteriorated during those years, with the prison population booming to make Americans the most-imprisoned citizenry in the world. The Telecommunications Act of 1996 was obscene and NAFTA/WTO far, far too generous to multinational corporatist wealth -- those with derivative ownnership and control who do virtually nothing to invest in improving the quality of life for the "least of these" and the public infrastructure wherever they prey. He is/was a gifted actor in the theater of politics, but somewhat thin in the democratically substantive. It must be remembered that the distribution of wealth became increasingly biased during the Clinton/Gore years.




And he has lousy taste in girlfriends. :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. According To The Chart The Poor Got Richer And The Rich Got Richer Too

That's a trade off I'll make every day...


Also, there's lot of data that suggests Perot took votes evenly from Clinton and Bush and conventional wisdom suggests that Perot caused Clinton to split the anti-incumbent vote in 92...

And in 96 Clinton got 49% Dole got 41% and Perot got 8%. I find it impossible to believe that Dole would have gotten all of Perot's votes...

[TahitiNut]

40. Well, given your apparent ...

... inability to read "the chart," I guess it's not surprising you "find it impossible." :shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. My Bad -You Are Right

I misread the chart...

The poor got a smaller share of GDP under Clinton...


Now, please find the chart that shows that under Clinton:

African American unemployment hit historic lows.

African American home ownership hit historic highs.

The African American middle class grew to it's larger % in history.

The U.S. went from record debt to surpluses

The # of new businesses reached their highest level.

I am sure there are a a motherlode of positive statistics that an empericist of your caliber can find...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

45. And I'd like a peek at the next four years on the chart.

[TahitiNut]

46. There's no question it has accelerated.

I'll eventually update it, but the job growth chart pretty much tells the story of the rape of labor for the benefit of predatory, destructive greed. It's very important to realize, however, that the flight of manufacturing jobs overseas during Clinton/Gore was dampened by the high-tech sector growth, somewhat artificially stimulated by the "Y2K" fad and Gore's internet initiative (including SME assistance for EDI). One of the first casualties of Bush/Cheney was the SME (small and medium-sized enterprises) EDI (electronic data interchange) outreach. When the high-tech creashed, the 'service' sector became WalMartized.

[TahitiNut]

52. FWIW, I just now updated it through 2000.

That's the latest year available, based on the compilations from the IRS and crunched at http://www.taxfoundation.org/prtopincometable.html

The distribution shift to the rich in 2000 was as much or more than prior years. :puke:

[G_j]

22. rating a pres is pretty hard

considering most of us were only around for a few of them.

Eisenhower was pres when I was a tot, all I remember was my mom had an "I like Ike" button.

The first pres I actually remember was JFK, but I was too young to have any opinion. When he was shot I remember feeling very sad.

Then being draft age and part of the anti-war movement I guess I helped drive LBJ out of office. I learned later that he had some pretty liberal plans for the country.

Nixon, I hated, and followed the watergate hearings like a hawk.

Carter I was luke warm about but then Reagan made me realise Carter was a man great intelligence and integrety.
I hated Reagan already because he called in the national guard on peace protesters, and said horrible things about us all. When he became pres. my loathing increased by the hour.

I disliked Bush 1 even more than Ray-gun because I thought of him a as deliberate liar who also was the shadow behind Iran/Contra. At least Reagan (I think) believed his own B.S!

Clinton was the first winning vote I cast since Carter but felt sort of let down because I wanted someone with a more liberal vision, like RFK perhaps. He broke my heart big time when he didn't pardon Leonard Peltier after leading the Native American community to believe he might.

Bush 2? The most loathsome person and disgraceful pres. I can possibly imagine.

On retrospect, Carter was my favorite of the presidents I can remember having an opinion about. I know the economy didn't didn't do too well during his term, but I admire his basic honesty. Most likey what he has done in the years since is what impresses me most. I guess favorite ex-president would be the best way to say it.

I'm hoping now for a Kucinich presidency. n

[Piperay]

23. I LOVE Clinton

he was a good as it gets for a President.:-) Unlike the repigs I can admit that my man had flaws and unfortunately those flaws kept him from acheiving the greatness that he could have had. :-(

[jumptheshadow]

26. A good administrative president

Remember when one pundit described Reagan as "the genial host of the nation?" Clinton to me was more like our national CEO. Or perhaps he was a marketing guy -- amoral but an amazingly effective salesman for this country. I was deeply conflicted about his stance on the death penalty and was angry at the personal liberties he took. But I always felt that there was an intelligent presence at the top when he was in the White House. He was a tenacious, charming and productive president, even when he was under siege by the RW and dealing with a reluctant Congress.

I suspect his stock will rise as the years go by.

[durutti]

27. A Disappointment

He was no Reagan, and his domestic economic policy wasn't totally horrible. But his international economic policy was repugnant, his foreign policy nonsensical, and his social policy simply awful.

Welfare "reform", NAFTA, WTO, more cops, more prisons, vigorous pursuit of the drug war, record imprisonment, enthusiastic support for the death penalty, growing inequality, "don't ask, don't tell", failure to free Leonard Peltier, ridiculous military budget, Kosovo, Iraq, Bosnia, Haiti, Croatia, Congo, Sudan, Afghanistan -- some of the many reasons I feel Clinton was a lousy President (but no Reagan or Bush, of course).

Then again, I don't think there's ever been a good President. Some are just less bad than others.

[jonnyblitz]

29. I agree. I didn't want to be the first to ruin this little lovefest tho...

He was DLC all the way..

[JohnKleeb]

30. jon I agree with you on that

I have my things about him I didnt like myself plenty actually.

[calimary]

49. sooooo... maybe you'd like to stick with what we've got now?

I think Clinton's star will rise higher and higher as bush carries on. Bush will make him look good. I said that - going on three Halloweens ago.

Okay, fine. Clinton isn't perfect. Wasn't perfect. Ask Hillary, for heaven's sakes. Furthermore, he was completely hamstrung by Newt Gingrich and his SS trooper goon friends in Congress. Health care? We would have had some if the rethugs didn't do everything in their power to get in the way. At least on the health care issue, Clinton actually tried to do something instead of just throwing verbal pablum and funding cutbacks at it, like the rest of 'em did.

Just imagine what he could have done with that energy, intellect, and verve for the job if he hadn't had the hyenas baying at his heels non-stop, distracting him and depleting him. Imagine.

I once read somewhere that the President of the United States should be the sharpest knife in the drawer, the cream of our crop, literally the best and finest Made-in-America product we have. In Clinton, we did have that. We also had a president who actually believed in working for a living, having spent his entire life doing that. Nothing was handed to him. He wasn't born into riches and privilege and connections and luxury. He didn't have some rich, powerful daddy to smooth the way for him and pull strings for him and bail his ass out and cover up for him and clean up his messes for him (no telling how many nannies were around for that, alone!). He didn't even HAVE a dad, for heaven's sakes! Everything he ever got he earned the hard way. And for all the "go get a job, you lazy entitlement-monkeys" repukes I'm a little surprised that at least a few of them don't recognize and at least respect THAT part of him.

No, he wasn't a perfect president. There isn't one. There will never be one. But he's pretty damned close. Close enough for me. I remember 'em back to JFK (although, just childhood memories, mainly) and none come close. Except maybe for Reagan - but only in the "charm" department. Reagan had charisma and teflon and good communicator skills, being the veteran actor and cue-card reader that he was, (at least to those observers who can stomach someone like Reagan), but no one else comes close.

And the longer little georgie-poo remains in office, the better Clinton will look. I even had a life-long republican friend (fairly early-on in bushie's reign, too) say that he'd never been a Clinton fan, but witnessed with his own eyes how much better business was when Clinton was president. This guy even said that, even though he remains a staunch rethug, he'd much rather have Clinton in office than bushie. And that was a couple of years ago, too! I think that opinion has, as they say in Genesis, multiplied, filled the earth, and subdued it.

[JohnKleeb]

58. I said he was the best in my lifetime and that I liked him

What more to you want me to say? I thought he was pretty good. I agree with you the GOP congress was major.

[corarose]

39. Your right Clinton was no Reagan.......LOL

President Clinton was intelligent and Raygun was a big dummy. Raygun was not a great president but the Republicans want to make him into a hero because they have no one else to latch on to.

[0rganism]

51. You miss the point about Reagan: he IS what rethugs want

Reagan was a shell of a man, an actor playing from a script written by the shadow gov't. But his acting was good enough to inspire the working white male voter, and his policies were certainly adequate for the plutocracy. Dismissing him as sloppy seconds is dangerous, because it misses the entire nature of the modern republican.

The GOP DOES have some real presidential "heros" to draw from in its history: Eisenhower, Teddy Roosevelt, Lincoln. They idolize Reagan not because "they have no one else", nor because he was a great leader, but because he played one on TV. He did not accomplish great things, but he was able to act like he did them.

Now don't get me started about how Sheen does it too, and does it better; I'm not saying Reagan was a high-quality actor. But his audience never required high-quality acting in those "feel good" flicks -- and that's basically what he gave America. Meantime, his more intelligent backers can perpetuate the policies started by his administration by fostering Reagan worship among the plebes.

[corarose]

57. The old republicans were a different breed

Can you imagine if they could come back for one day and see what has happened to their party? They are rolling over in their graves right now as we speak.

You can't drive down the street today without seeing buildings, street names, etc. that has been changed to Reagan's name. I am sick of it he was not that great of a president and I don't think that places should be named after him until he is long gone.

[shrike]

31. I struggled under Reagan and Bush 1

It was only during the Clinton administration that I was able to get my footing. I don't like everything he did and I think he let us down, particularly in the area of health care, but I will never forget the fact that under his stewardship I was able to climb on solid ground.

[JPace]

32. Clinton was emotionally connected...

to the struggles of the disadvantaged and the needs
of the common citizen. I love him for that. Besides
being a near genius and a work horse of a president
I believe he was just plain lucky for America. Almost
everything improved during his watch. If some of his
policies were faulty then it was up to the following
administration to improve on them just as Clinton
himself took the leftover problems of papa bush made
them better where he could.

I miss him....think I always will.

[gully]

33. Thanks for the poll.

I think Clinton was a very good president. I did not agree with every executive decision or lack their of, but he was one of the top Presidents of all time IMO.

[oasis]

34. checking in...BC's the greatest ever.

[Shanty Oilish]

35. Great president, middling-rated rutting boar

Fouled his own lot. :thumbsdown:

[dand]

36. He was GREAT

Best in my life time, and I am retired.
Heres to The Big Dog:toast:

[oasis]

43. I'll drink to that

:toast:

[are_we_united_yet]

37. He was a great President

And a brilliant man.

[ulysses]

38. "other"

Clinton was better than George H. W. Bush, but a huge disappointment as a Democrat.

[Liberator_Rev]

42. Considering what he had to work with, Phenominal !

Sure someone might have done better in the abstract. But given the state of the country, the predominance of the G.O.P. at the time, the media's prostitution to the corporations and alliance with the G.O.P., I think Bill Clinton's will eventually be valued much more than he is today.
For those who want to publish over a hundred of his accomplishments on Conservative boards every time they slam him, (and see a lot of other great stuff), check out
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Clinton.


I'd love to be able to see their faces when they slam him without giving it a thought only to see a resume displayed with 115 great achievements! It might just shake up some of the younger unthinking sheep to think AGAIN !

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. I Like Your Avatar

NT

[0rganism]

47. For all my gripes against Bill Clinton, he was a real President

Clinton had Reagan's photogenic appeal, and was doubtless the smartest man to hold the office in my lifetime (since '69). The man could LEAD: great speaking, solid candor, intense grasp of the issues, and an ability to make difficult decisions wisely and quickly. However, his own confidence in his abilities betrayed him in the end.

He thought he could have it all: talking Middle East peace on the phone with Arafat while getting blowjobs from Monica. But it came back to bite him in the ass, and we paid for his indiscretion with de facto success of the most disgusting partisan witchhunt I've ever seen played to the hilt by the GOP.

For me, the Clinton presidency was a moment of early hope, followed by a series of compromises and disappointments, and concluded in shame and misery. When he got onstage at his inaugural in '93, saxophone in hand, I thought we had entered the promised land. Now, 10 years later, we're in more dismal circumstances than I would have thought possible at that time.

[sujan]

48. Best Republic President EVER

[friendofbenn]

60. you missed of the AN

and dwight eisenhower was probably better than clinton

[David Zephyr]

50. Clinton Looks Stellar Compared to What We Have Now.

n/t

[Nottingham]

54. I liked him!

:bounce:

[Clark Can WIN]

55. I loved him then and I love him now

Does that mean I agree with every decision he made and every action he took? Of course not, there are only two groups of people who agree with every single decision or statement of any given president, those incapable of governing their own opinions and their (the presidents) mothers.

[fujiyama]

56. Probably

the best in the last 50 years, though I do like Truman as well...

Whatever the case, I think Clinton's policies were very prudent and sensible. He got off to a rough start though and gave the GOP some ammo especially when it came to his personal life. It is dissapointing in some ways, because his presidency definetely had more potential.

Either way, he was a great president that really did have some sense of the average American. He was intelligent and able to articulate American values abroad and was loved in other countries for that reason. His popularity abroad is really difficult to imagine now, considering how much this nation is now hated. Everywhere he went -- whether India, throughout Africa (check out footage of his trips through these two nations and you see how comfortable he is around people of different races), Ireland as someone mentioned, and many other places, people rushed out to shake his hand, and he did.

People should compare that footage with that of the current pResident. Sparse crowds greeted him, that too out of curiosity, and with little if any affection.

He had share of failures, but he was definetely more in tune with people than Reagan, Bush I, Nixon, Ford, and of course Bush II. He was also more effective than Carter.

[SideshowScott]

61. One of the reasons i LOVE Clinton is beacuse the rightys HATE him so

Did he make some huge blunders?..I think that goes without saying..But he also did alot of good at times and for the most part o agrees with what he tryed to do for america..And UNLIKE bush he was handed lemons from the Reagan/Bush years and made some pretty sweet lemonade at times..Yes there were some things that he did that i did not agree with or frankly was quite ebarassesed about..But on a whole ill give him a B+..Bush gets an F-

[TahitiNut]

62. "PLEASE don't throw me in the briar patch!"

:eyes:

[birdman]

63. He "argued that gays should serve in the military"

and then when he got shit from the Republicans he
abandoned the gay servicepeople immediately. He so
the bungled the issue of national health care that
he set America's most needed social reform back 20 years.
He turned his back on the Democratic party's 60 year committment
to the poor by signing on to "welfare reform" because
it was an election year. He recklessly endangered his career, embarrassed the party and probably damaged Gore's election chances to get blowjobs from a star struck valley girl.

Clinton was light years better than either of the Bushes
but we shouldn't have blinders on where he's concerned.
He did little to advance any progressive agenda in his
eight years.

You can still be a democrat since birth and have a realistic
appraisal of Clinton.

[jonnyblitz]

64. He also ran ads on christian radio bragging about signing DOMA

during his 1996 campaign in an attempt to appeal to the right wing christian bigots with how "family values" he was by being against gay marriage.

:puke: