Black Box: I'm taking on VoteHere Jim Adler on radio live

[BevHarris]

anyone in Seattle -- KIRO 7-10 Dave Ross show,

This guy is trotting out the same old flawed arguments against the paper trail.

I think there about 30 minutes left.

So far, he says you can't have paper because
a) you can't have two ballots boxes (lame)
b) same problem as Florida where people can't interpret them (lame -- Dave Ross said "why not just have the machine print it, we can all read it, then you can audit and we can all understand it)
c) Adler says you shouldn't have paper ballots because of the multiple languages (lame: a computer can print the same language on the screen)
d) of course, the blind can't read a paper ballot (but AccuPoll produces a scannable paper ballot that gives out an auditory verification)

I'm standing firm: We WILL NOT accept any system that tells citizens to depend on a handful of cryptographers or computer scientists who say "trust us, we'll make it safe."

Next: caller comments on which system they want

[papau]

1. Great going Bev - Hang Tough for a paper auditable trail! :-)

I hope National Cable is Next!

:-)

[BevHarris]

2. Caller from Microsoft -- the language is BS

caller saying the systems are 6-7 years out of date

computer scientist for 20 years says nope, paper trail is the way to go

[DEMActivist]

4. Whooo hoooo, go Bev!!!!

Go get 'im!

[bpilgrim]

3. remember you have an army of CS who agree with you

keep up the good fight :toast:

peace

[BevHarris]

5. Now Adler has trotted out the League of Women Voters and civil rights

hope they let me respond. ESPECIALLY to the civil rights claim, which was bullshit to begin with. Leadership Council on Civil Rights retracted their opposition to the paper trail, and they comprise about 180 organizations -- their members who represent African Americans, Hispanics, and gay populations did NOT sign on. They signed on originally based on LWV and AARP (mainly white constituencies) but are implying through the term "civil rights" that it applies to minorities.

grrr.

[BevHarris]

6. Caller" "I thought we would have learned a lesson"

worms, viruses, I don't want to trust, even Microsoft has problems.

"I don't want to trust my vote to a bunch of moneychangers at the temple"

This caller wants no part of it.

[dmr]

7. Way to go Bev, you speak for the rest of us!

Wish I could listen! :)

Paper all the way!

[Red_Viking]

8. Go Bev! We're cheering you on in Texas.

We had an election over the weekend on 22 constitutional amendments. Travis County, which includes Austin, uses electronic voting. The poor election official got an earful from me and my SO! She was visibly shaken, and tried to defend electronic voting machines. I decided to go vote and leave her alone. When I was leaving, SHE re-engaged ME, and we had a nice discussion about the pitfalls of having no paper trail. By the time we left, I think we had a new believer!

I'm terribly suspicious of this election, where ALL 22 amendments passed. Makes you say "hmmmmm."

Keep fighting the good fight! We've got your back!

:dem:

RV

[althecat]

34. Red... Have a look at this analysis of TX... I posted in another thread...

REMARKS...

Votes in races 3, 9, 12 and 21 were very close.... all broke narrowly to the passage side...

Note particularly though that the other early vote results are similar to the finals...

On prop 12 they are way out.... Prevotes indicated passage by 57% compared to 50.1%...

*********

Prop 3 Exemption for religious groups
1% Variation

IN FAVOR 205,715 51.85% 723,905 52.91%
AGAINST 191,000 48.15% 644,321 47.09%

Statewide Turnout 11.36% 12,041,793 Registered Voters

*********


Prop 9 Permanent school fund

0.3% Variation

IN FAVOR 189,522 50.32% 650,853 50.35%
AGAINST 187,119 49.68% 641,801 49.65%

Statewide Turnout 10.73% 12,041,793 Registered Voters

*********


Prop 12 Suits against doctors and providers



6.3% Variation
(note.... Turnout slightly higher but this still stands out like a sore thumb....)

IN FAVOR 240,502 57.21% 742,849 50.98%
AGAINST 179,882 42.79% 714,395 49.02%
Vote Total 420,384 1,457,244
Precincts Reporting 6,673 of 6,701 Precincts 99.58%
Statewide Turnout 12.10% 12,041,793 Registered Voters

*********

Prop 21 Compensation for government service

0.8% Variation

IN FAVOR 197,069 51.50% 686,732 52.33%
AGAINST 185,577 48.50% 625,684 47.67%

Vote Total 382,646 1,312,416
Precincts Reporting 6,673 of 6,701 Precincts 99.58%
Statewide Turnout 10.90% 12,041,793 Registered Voters

[wtmusic]

9. I humbly stand corrected

Bev--in another thread I argued for a possible cryptographic voting solution based on ideas put forth by Bruce Schneier in his book, "Applied Cryptography". Schneier, as you probably know, is arguably the world's leading authority on computer security.

In Schneier's new book, "Beyond Fear: Thinking Sensibly About Security in an Uncertain World" he comes out against computer voting in no uncertain terms:

"Replacing paper ballots with computerized voting machines is a horrendously dangerous idea."

[BevHarris]

10. Dave Ross: Jim: you're essentially asking us to trust you

encryption, experts, it would be like a space shuttle investigation

Adler says why trust an ATM --it gives a receipt

Dave Ross debunked him on the ATM issue

Adler is really stumbling --

Ross is taking him on very effectively

[AP]

32. Your bank sends you a paper confirmation, and, unlike your vote,

your money doesn't completely dissipate. If you depostited $1000 at the ATM and it didn't show up in the account, you'd know.

[BevHarris]

11. Oh, I just got so pissed off -- Adler brought up "civil rights" again

I lit into him. I challenged him to find ANY African American group that is against a paper ballot. Talked about my husband, Sonny D, who IS African American. We are in the black churches, we are in the black civil rights groups, they are not on board with the claims made by the "no paper trail" crowd.

Also said the League did NOT consult their local chapters and encouraged everyone to call their local chapter.

[BevHarris]

12. Washington State League Women Voters: Have NOT taken a stand

The leader of Washington State League of Women Voters called in to say she doesn't know why the national office is saying what they are, but in Washington they are studying the issue and have not taken a stand.

Whoop. There it is. National LWV does NOT have them on board.

By the way, Adler came back on claiming that the Leadership Council on Civil Rights represents the NAACP etc. What he did not mention is that they have reversed the initial stand they took and also, that their initial stand was apparently never voted on by the NAACP or others.

Bev

13. You should have called me before

Once again, I missed out on something that could have helped.

On the other hand, you did your questions independently of any influence from me.

Interesting that you found instances where what was said by this person does not correspond with fact.

I would like a transcript.

I was informed by that company I am not to mention that I am suing them by name on DU. My free speech is gone now.

Dan

[BevHarris]

16. So, Jim Adler says he's always had a problem with touch screens

(Edited to remove a quote)

However, he had Dan Spillane examining touch screens VoteHere built, and they were less than interested in finding flaws, I believe.

Unfortunately, the Dave Ross show always calls immediately before they will be having me on, so there is never any time to call anyone, and he doesn't let you interrupt the caller, because he has you on mute while they talk.

I hope I can debate Jim Adler on the air again. I may even send press releases to that effect, listing both of our phone numbers. He did not hold up well, and not a single caller supported him. But I had an advantage, in that the host, Dave Ross, wasn't buying his lines either. Actually, Ross made very effective rebuttals.

Adler also talked about how he has always agreed that these unauditable touch screens have problems (I know, Dan -- grrr, I really wanted to hammer him on that. Uh, wasn't it unauditable touch screens that he was making when you were senior test engineer for VoteHere?)

I really wanted to ask him why he has the military-industrial complex on his board of directors, with the Vice Chairman of SAIC and a member of the Defense Policy Board as his Chairman of the board of directors (Admiral Bill Owens), and a former CIA director and current head of the George Bush School of Business (Robert Gates) as a director.

And how the hell he thinks the SAIC should have been doing an "independent" review of Diebold when VoteHere is the one proposing the "solution" to Diebold's security flaws and the SAIC Vice Chairman is VoteHere's Chairman.

Too bad, so sad, no time to get into it with him. Love to debate him again, but he gets my temper flaring, and I think it shows; I probably sounded over-aggressive. Will work on that next time.

Bev

19. Note

VoteHere reads DU so you might want to be careful.

21. I hope you can sit in the front row in the courtroom

I promise to do what I can, because you have become the lead investigator on the Black Box issue, despite your mean assistants.

Hey, wasn't it supposed to be the Justice Department and the Secretaries of State? What's going on? Are you running for these positions?

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Lookie at that board....!

---grin grin grin---

23. I could probably have someone available

For the next time you interview with Adler.

[RedEagle]

14. Geeezz, I couldn't find Kiro's phone numbers fast enough...

I am SO tired of the paper ballot thing.

We have two systems now, maybe a third, that combine the best of both worlds- paper and electronics.

Both Accupoll and Avante have voter verified paper ballots.

Those ballots come with a code ID'ing them to the corresponding random number assigned to that vote.

Just run the paper against the machine and you'll catch any ballot box stuffing.

It would take an insider to committ ballot box fraud and Adler's system is just a susceptible to that, but on a scale thousands worse.

There is also the issue of recounts, which in Adler's system is dependent on the computer program. If those receipts go with the voter, you can't conduct a recount.

Adler's system could be set up just like the Diebold multiple books system.

(Bev, if you get a heads up, next time, call me!)
(I don't listen to the radio when I'm writin' stuff for the paper....)

[wtmusic]

18. 'It would take an insider to commit ballot box fraud'

Isn't that the point?

15. Nooooo

Tell me you are kidding.

[BevHarris]

17. Dave Ross read the Ken Clark memo on the air (grin)

Sorry to kick my own thread so many times. In the first segment, Ross got into the Diebold memos and after letting me talk about the Microsoft Access hack that I wrote about on July 8, and the fact that this was brought to Diebold's attention two years ago, he read this quote from the memo:

Being able to end-run the database has admittedly got people out of a bind though. Jane (I think it was Jane) did some fancy footwork on the .mdb file in Gaston recently. I know our dealers do it. King County is famous for it. That's why we've never put a password on the file before.

Dave Ross then said he called King County to ask them to come on the air and explain themselves, but they declined. :)

Dave Ross is awesome.

Bev

20. Diebold memos

One caution is the Diebold memos are not tied to the certification documents or process. They are a field engineer/tech writer (POST-development) stream of information. One step above "gossip."

I have even found field engineers to be completely off base.

In fact, it looks to me like the Diebold website you guys found is not the development code base.

Yet, these memos DO shed a terrible finger of bright light inside Diebold's Black Box. That's enough for the media, and I think, a fair view, even if the documents were "stolen."

[BevHarris]

26. Whatever.

.

[Gordon25]

27. Emails more than gossip

"One caution is the Diebold memos are not tied to the certification documents or process. They are a field engineer/tech writer (POST-development) stream of information. One step above "gossip."

The exchange I saw between the chief engineer and one of his field engineer's over Metamor's discovery of the Access hack capability in the files sounded like a heck of a lot more than gossip. It sounded like a subordinate asking his boss how to handle a tough question from the company doing the certification of its software, and the superior telling his subordinate that Diebold knows about the flaws, has known about them for ten years, knows their customers know about them and illegally use them to manipulate vote counts, and instructs the subordinate to lie and deceive his way through the issue which the subordinate later reports back he has successfully done.

Sure sounds to me like they are tied to "certification documents or process."

Gordon25

[The Night Owl]

22. I must hear this! Will a transcript or recording be made available?

If so, when?

24. Transcript

I am told there is a place to buy transcripts for 30 dollars.

Let me know. I missed it too.

DanSLegal at aol.com

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

25. It may, or may not, get archived here in a few days:

http://www.kiro710.com/show_details.jsp?iShowId=410

[shirlden]

28. A kick for the activists

n/t :kick:

[Clete]

29. Remind them that the voting machine should work

exactly like a cash register in a supermarket. Instead of groceries, you are selecting candidates and issues. You are paying for them with your votes instead of money. No large supermarket chain has paperless, single entry machines. They produce receipts, a journal tape and an audit tape. There is no reason voting machines can't do the same.

[scottxyz]

30. Excellent analogy

exactly like a cash register in a supermarket... No large supermarket chain has paperless, single entry machines. They produce receipts, a journal tape and an audit tape. There is no reason voting machines can't do the same.

This is an excellent analogy. When I go to the supermarket, I always check the receipt to make sure the sale items got marked down. And at the end of the day, the manager can read the journal tape from the register to confirm what was bought there that day. No computer transaction systems are paperless!

[wtmusic]

33. No computer transaction systems are paperless?

Ecommerce?

[DEMActivist]

35. No, ecommerce is NOT paperless

As a small business owner with an internet ecommerce site, I can tell you we generate TONS of paper.

To fill ANY order, the first thing we have to do is print out a copy. In addition, we send a copy of the order to our customer, then include a copy as the shipping document in the box.

Not paperless by ANY stretch of the imagination.

[BevHarris]

36. In e-commerce, you get the following documentation:

1) you can do a screen print and save it
2) you get the product you paid for
3) you get the credit card statement with the charge on it

That's a whole lot different than "press the button" okay now go away we'll take it from here don't worry your pretty little head (and oh by the way you can't prove that what you asked for is what we gave you)

[shance]

38. Thats great Bev - makes its easy to understand

Those are great words that would make sense to all of us.

[4dog]

39. Quibble on the metaphor - register is not anonymous

whereas the voting system must ensure anonymity.

[hunter]

47. I pay cash, it's anonymous...

All they can do is look at the security videos... I'll be smiling.

[wtmusic]

41. How would a receipt help in voter fraud?

Do you really think it would be practical to round up 28 million people (in the case of CA) to check everyone's receipt? It would never happen.

[BevHarris]

43. That's why we need a paper BALLOT, not receipt (ballot box)

Bear in mind it is Jim Adler's VoteHere "solution" that gives an encrypted receipt. We are looking for a voter verified ballot, retained in a ballot box at the polling place.

[wtmusic]

46. Why not just use punch cards then?

(BTW, I appreciate your taking the time to answer these posts. If you have a website you can point me to I'd be happy to educate myself).

[Occulus]

48. It would if it were publicly known

that vote fraud is suspected. Especially if time off work for such a thing is mandatory for employers to give.

[SharonAnn]

44. And you probably get email or something confirming the order

and the price.

[BevHarris]

31. Wow -- I like the analogy too

Short, simple, to the point.

And properly auditable. (What are these guys so afraid of?)

[frank frankly]

37. great!

kick

[Eloriel]

40. Awesome work, Bev

Thanks for the running commentary. Almost like being there. ;-)

Eloriel

[RedEagle]

42. More People Need to Know This

Kick!

[ParanoidPat]

45. Great job Bev!

A thankful :kick: for the late night crowd!

[TacticalPeek]

49. Kick. Got votes?

:kick:

[RedEagle]

50. Keep this in Front where People can Learn

VoteHere- just another vote manipulation scheme.

Kick!