I'm getting uneasy with the prospect of Dean as the nominee

[jos]

I know I risk getting flamed, but here's my thinking. I'm supporting Kucinich for now, but planned to switch to Dean after the inevitable occurs. However, while the mideast remarks didn't bother me in the least, in fact it made me think better of him, I am concerned about his remarks about Medicare and his statement that he was never strongly in favor of NAFTA when in fact he did make such a statement 10 years ago. Also someone on "The Note" made reference to his "church lady like" expression when challenged in the debates.

All this makes me wonder if he would be the strongest candidate of the group running. He deserves a great deal of credit for his opposition to the Iraq war and for getting the party off its knees, but is he destined to be a "John the Baptist"? Someone who lights the way, but is succeeded by another. If the media keeps focusing on his credibility, and he gives them the ammunition, is he destined to get "Gored"?

So at this point, while I haven't ruled Dean out, I'm taking a new look at Edwards and Gephardt as my "backup" choice. Despite their vote on the Iraq war, these two take the type of populist approach that I think is the key to beating Bush.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. Please Take a Good Look at Clark

I love Dean, but I love Clark more. I think you'll be happy with his positions, his consistency and his charisma.

DTH

[NickDanger]

17. Dean can't win and Clark can

Unless Bush is caught getting skulldini from Monica.

[uptohere]

19. but he's not running, although that could change

.

[dfong63]

68. sure, Clark looks unscathed, because he hasn't been on the frontlines

Clark has been hiding behind his non-candidate status. it's easy for Clarkies to say he looks good - he hasn't been out there campaigning and running for office.

he also hasn't been out there like Dean, debating with the other (real) dem candidates and shaking hands and holding townhall meetings and firing up the democratic party. Dean has been doing all these things, while Clark has been contemplating his navel and trying to work up the courage to say he's really a democrat.

[Ilsa]

2. I won't flame you either.

I'm still undecided for the primary, although I might go with Clark if he decides to run, but he better get started or I'll blow him off for making me wait. But don't ask me why.

I think you raise some very good points.

[MidwestTransplant]

4. Wednesday is the day!

You don't have to wait much longer!

[Ilsa]

12. I can wait that long!

My dh and I will be happy to jump on board with him. :kick:

[deutsey]

3. I think any Dem frontrunner is going to get "Gored"

unfortunately. Bush could drink fresh human blood every night, though, after human sacrifice right in front of mainstream reporters and it wouldn't get a mention, but let a Dem misspeak even slightly and suddenly they're selling snakeoil.

Regarding your other concerns, I see Dean's campaign trying to adjust to the frontrunner status and the subsequent scrutiny and attacks. It's been shaky, but I think they're adjusting.

Time will tell, as they say.

[Cha]

6. I'm glad I have more faith in Dean than reading some articles

that are trying to "Gore" Dean!

Whether Dean is "John The Baptist" or not I'm sticking by him until it's clear! :toast:

[Kahuna]

20. It may surprise you but we don't need articles to intepret what

we hear with our own ears. I watched "This Week" yesterday and heard with my own ears, Deans denials of

1. He got the "Lott" quip from Carville, even though Carville said he did.

2. When Steph challenged him on his ridiculous assertion that he is the ..get this..only candidate who talks about race in front of other whites, he actually tried to prove that he was right about that stupid, ridiculous remark. Do I need journalists or my own ears to tell me that I have heard ALL of the candidates talk about race in front of white crowds?

3. Do I need the media to tell me that although I heard with my own ears Dean admit on MTP that he once supported increasing the age for social security benefits to 68 or 70, and watched him accusing Kucinich of being a liar when Dennis mentioned it during a debate, with my own eyes?

4. Yesterday on this week he claimed that he NEVER had to apologize to anyone but Edwards. Never! he insisted. I've read quotes of his apologizing to Kerry and Bob Graham. But he said, Only once!

5. Who really believes that his favorite song is Jaspora? Later on the phone with his wife he recounted how he lucky he was that his son listens to is and gee, he was able to use that song at a debate hosted by black peiple. Tee hee.

Face it. More and more it becomes apparent that Dean will say whatever and do whatever to win. Basically, take Dean's statements with a grain of salt.

[deutsey]

21. You heard Dean talking to his wife on the phone?

:shrug:

[Kahuna]

24. The call was overheard by reporters and reported on...

Some threads about it where posted on DU with the sources. A search will find them for you.

[deutsey]

27. This?

Later, Dean noted that his son, Paul, would have liked his choice of Jaspora by Wyclef Jean as his (Dean’s) favorite song. However, from the phone conversation with home it appears that Wyclef has yet to penetrate deep into the Dean household, the governor stating, “You don’t know who he is? He is a big favorite of Paul’s,” to his wife. (As to why Jaspora was selected as his favorite, Dean said he has more than one favorite song, this particular tune just jumped to the forefront. Could it be the CDs the kids leave behind in the car?)

From MSNBC (posted here on DU).


Hardly damning, in my opinion...and besides, the point of your post was to say you didn't need media reports to interpret what you heard with your own ears. That's why I questioned this point. I may not agree with your interpretation of the other things you list, but at least you did hear them yourself and are entitled to your own take on them.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

31. Was Howard lucky his son broke into the country club?

just asking.

[deutsey]

32. No.

Does that answer your question?

Any other pointless cheap shots you want to take? Oh, let me guess...I'm sure you do.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

33. There was a point and it is this:

how much of Howard's "success" does he owe to the "luck" of inspiration from his son, or from any number of other outside influences? I am truly left to wondering what, in general, motivates this man to be President.

[deutsey]

38. ?

Well, of course, anyone could deduce that from your post.

:shrug:

[Cha]

28. It may not surprise you that I don't care what your interpretations

are.

[babzilla]

45. better get a q-tip

we hear with our own ears. I watched "This Week" yesterday and heard with my own ears, Deans denials of

1. He got the "Lott" quip from Carville, even though Carville said he did.

You need to clean out your ears. I asked you in the other thread where Dean said he came up with the Lott quip. At what point in the interview did he claim that?

Why would Dean claim that, knowing that the HBO show K-Street would be aired and it would be shown that Carville gave him that line? I don't have HBO but from what I read the whole punch line of the show was Matalin's reaction to the line when she watched the debate.

Why would Dean claim that while his own blog had a post by Carville and Begala stating that they prepped him for the debate, gave him lines and that he used some of them?

Please refrain from spreading lies, it will only hurt you when your candidate becomes Deans VP.

[Andromeda]

69. This is stupid...

I don't give a flying f**k what you think of Dean. All the things you mentioned are nothing but trivial nonsense that somebody with a whole lot of time and nothing better to do would find important.

[MODemocrat]

62. I'm with you zidzi

After all, none of us have the slightest chance of selecting who we want anyway. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'll be supporting Dean.

[Demobrat]

9. Absolutely. When it looked like Edwards would catch on

it was give us the trial lawyer. Can you imagine what a heyday Rove could have with that? And if it's one of the others, they'll be just as viscious to them. Look at what they did to McCain!!! Nobody's safe from these guys, because if they don't have anything they'll just make it up. So regardless of who anybody decides to support, for whatever reason, I sure hope the reason won't be any candidate's perceived vulnerability to Rove attacks. In that area, I really think there is no difference between them.

[bitchkitty]

11. I think that Edwards

has a reputation of fighting for the little guy. They might not have as much ammunition there as they would want.

[deutsey]

14. Oh, they'll find something, or, more likely, twist something around

I mean, if they had no problem with going after McCain by spreading rumors that he was crazy from being a POW (or, worse, that he was a traitor), I have no doubt that they will do the same kind of thing to the Dem nominee.

[Demobrat]

18. By the time they got done with him

he would be personally responsible for the high cost of health care in this country. But I don't mean to pick on Edwards especially. They'll do the same to anybody.

[DemDogs]

52. But Rove wants Dean and doesn't want Edwards

That tells you something. It may not be something you want to hear, but that doesn't change it.

[Demobrat]

65. Rove says he wants Dean.

That means nothing.

[Castilleja]

5. A good reason for all candidates to remain

in the race. Even though you may favor one over the other, many ideas will be voiced that might otherwise not be. No one candidate is political pefection, and I don't think it is possible to be that AND be honest.

[lindashaw]

7. I really like Dean, and I think he said he was against the GROWTH...

of Medicare ten years ago. That aside, I really like Clark, too. However, I think the process of the campaign itself with settle our questions.

I've always believed in that little small voice inside. Every time I have ignored it, I've paid. Remaining open to more knowledge is the key.

[CWebster]

8. Ah yes

when he isn't rousing the crowds like Hitler, it is that objectionable "church lady expression" that casts such a negative aura on his prospects.

[lindashaw]

10. Well,, we might not have like the way FDR's crutches looked, either.

[FlashHarry]

60. "Rousing the crowds like HITLER???"

Excuse me? Care to explain that one?

[onecitizen]

13. "Church lady expression"?

What is a Church-lady expression?

My opinion to all this stuff is that I think people,all people can change their minds from time to time. After reading and studying an issue, as times change, people change, their opinions change. But I do think the candidates should just come out and say that and don't beat around the bush about it. People just want straight talk from politicians. Which was what attracted me to Dean from the beginning. SAY WHAT YOU THINK AND FEEL.

[uptohere]

16. I thought it was a perfect description

its when he pulls his chin back in toward his neck, raises his eyes and looking displeased.

Also when people change, they should frame it as such and not have it pointed out by others. People keep up with things like this, so should he. People base their support on issues and if you change your stance, people care.

[Kahuna]

25. The , 'who MEEEE?????? I never said THAT,' thing he does when someone

confronts him with his own words and actions. You know like when Steph busted him on a couple of things yesterday (that I posted in the above post) and how he reacted to Kucinich during Dennis' remarks about Dean and social security during a debate.

[StandWatie]

15. one reason I like Dean over the rest..

The RNC has been trying to push the fight on tort reform as a "doctor vs. lawyer" thing and it will look really stupid for Bush to try that line out on Dean.

[Larkspur]

22. Are you "uneasy" or "jealous" that Dean is leading right now

and Kucinich can not get out of the 0-3% poll rankings?

How a candidate manages his/her campaign is a good indication of how they will react as President nominee and President? Dean, who was the Darkest Horse last year, has emerged from obscurity to front-runner on his own merit, strategic planning, innovative thinking, organizing skills, judgment, and his empathy with voters. Right now he's under the intense media spotlight and he's weathering it well. His handling of the Pelosi letter was superb! He showed the statemanship abilities we expect in a leader of the Democratic party who is also the leading Presidential candidate.

The Primary campaign is a good bell weather of the health of candidates potential for the big race. Dean is winning so far in the states that come first in the primary season and those wins will give him more momentum and media attention.

[mb7588a]

23. Jos I think you're uneasy because

Dean is NOT electable. Whoever started this talk of including Clark on his side was pure brilliance. You get some foreign policy experience to complement a spouter of anti-war rhetoric. Dean was also brilliant to start the anti-war bandwagon when he did. If Kerry had done the same and not voted for the war, he'd be blowing everyone out of the water. Kerry is the most electable of the stand alone candidates.

[Mz Pip]

26. It only would have been brilliant

if Clark went along with it. He didn't. It ended up making Dean look arrogant for publicly choosing a running mate months before the first primary. Stupid move by the Dean team.

MzPip
:dem:

[Demobrat]

29. Actually, the Dean team has made the point over and over

that it is too soon and would be quite arrogant of them to be discussing VPs now. Dean was asked whether he would consider Clark as VP and his answer was yes, among others. He didn't float the idea. The press did.

[Mz Pip]

30. Thanks for the clarification

Yesterday, when I was working a Draft Wesley Clark table many Dean supporters came over an talked like the Clark VP thing was a done deal. Guess the truth takes some time to filter down.

MzPip
:dem:

[bearfartinthewoods]

53. who leaked the existance of the call to the press

think about it.....

what would Clark have to gain by leaking the story of the phone call?
nadda...it makes him appear second tier/VP material before he even declares. it's pretty hard to buy that the story came from the Clark camp.

[Demobrat]

66. I don't know what phone call you're referring to.

Dean has said that he and Clark talk. Paraphrasing, he has said that he talks to Clark about foreign affairs and that Clark has asked him about domestic issues. I don't think it was one call that got the rumor started.

[Skwmom]

39. Someone was already selling Dean/Clark goods

on the internet.

[MODemocrat]

64. The last time I checked, one must be popular to be electable

Dean is popular, and it shows by the way people jump on the bandwagon to run him down every chance they get.
What I personally like about Dean is that he is not too big to bend.
Doesn't everyone change their mind every now and again? On a personal note, when the Ford SUV's were first introduced, I tried every way in the book to get one, and even told my friend who had purchased one, to
let me have the first chance at buying hers if she ever sold it.
Today, after seeing the economy in the proverbial ditch, and gas prices soaring to record prices, I wouldn't have the slightest desire to have my friend's SUV. So I changed my mind, does that make me a fabricator or not such a good friend?

[TrogL]

34. Dean said yada yada ten years ago

So what?

Dubya went AWOL years ago and nobody except us seems to give a damn.

It's what he's doing right now that counts. If he's changing his mind once a week, that's cause for concern. If he can't tell a story without getting bogged down in the details like Gore, that's an issue.

The only way Dem's are going to win in the current political situation is through charisma. Dean's got it. Gore doesn't. The other's don't (not sure about Clark).

[NewYorkerfromMass]

35. There's a recipe for disaster

If charisma becomes the standard which we "aspire" to (and I say "aspire" with as derisive a tone as I can manage) then we are making the huge and FATAL mistake of playing on Bush's playing field.
Sorry, but I want substance. I want character. I want consistency, and I want maturity and proof of committment to the issues.
I think a lot of other people do to.
If we think charisma is the holy grail to the 2004 election, then we will have our asses handed to us next year.
i.e: I think our troops in Iraq want a little more than charisma.

[AP]

36. Like movies, in politics, character is everything, and I don't

mean 'having good character'. I'm talking about having a good sense of what a person stands for and would do in a hypothetical situation.

Here's an example: Star Wars Episode 3 vs Episone 1. Both of those movies have a character who performs the exact same function -- he's the pilot of the ship that flies the princess to safety. In the first movie, that character is Han Solo, and the role resulted in a tremendous career for the actor who played him. In the second movie, I barely remember what the actor looked like. Why? Because of characterization. After I walked out of Episode 3, I could have talked about who Han Solo was and what he'd do in various situations for hours (and the guy was only on the screen for maybe 15 minutes). If you asked me about EVERY character in Episode 1, I would have asked to change the subject, because the characterization was so poor, nothing was interesting in that movie.

This is also why the TV shows Friends and Seinfeld are so popular -- it's all characterization. They don't have to be good or bad characters: they just need to be interesting, relatively likeable, totally consistent, and have a logic which people grasp (and in politics, your characterization ahs to be better than the person you are running against)

Dean has built up his candidacy thus far by creating a persona which people think they understand. People are always saying here, "Oh, Dean wouldn't do that because it isn't in his character." Well, as things evolve, and it turns out that there are inconsistencies, or that some things he has done might be "out of character" with the person he construed himself as being at an earlier stage, then you have problems.

Consistency, making sense, having an internal logic are vitally important to winning the presidency. (Incidenally, Gore had no control over his characterization. He totally let Bush define him, and that's why he lost.)

When voters cast their vote, what they're doing is not so different from what they're doing when they decide they like a book or a movie or a TV show. They're just saying, I like this character better than I like this other character. The authors of these characters are not just the candidates, but the campaign managers and the media too. And the authors are ourselves, but we have to be conscious of the fact that just because we draw the candidates the way we do doesn't me that other voters draw them the same way. If you're asking people to ignore facts which are inconsistent with your characterization of the candidate, you're fighting a losing battle.

[Larkspur]

40. Charisma is measured in how a candidate inspires people and

character is measured in how that candidate handles the popularity.

Hitlier used popularity to feed narcissic dreams, both his and his suporters, and caused immense suffering and destruction.

Dean has used it to create a movement based upon hope, a movment that encourages us to take our country back from the corrupt politicians and their suppliers. Instead of living off of voters anger and frustrations, like a drug addict, Dean transformed that negative energy into a positive force that will rejuvenate the dying Democratic party into an real opposition party against the Reichwing thugs running our government.

Whether you like it or not, whether Dean wins the nomination or not, HD is a power broker within the Dem party because of his supporters and his ability to inspire us.

[Skwmom]

37. I hope there are lot more people who think about this.

The end goal - to get Bush out of the Whitehouse - is just to important to screw up.

I seriously considered Dean at first but was turned off by:

1. In the first debate I thought he came across as arrogant. Maybe I'm sensitive after putting up with rich boy Bush's arrogancy and smirks for going on 3 years but it was really a put off.

2. He couldn't take the heat on MTP. We need someone like Clinton who can take the heat.

3. I saw a pictorial of the various candidates in a magazine I read in my doctor's office. Dean's was the worst. He came off as very stiff. Reminded me of Gore (though I love Gore - he did have that problem).

4. His waffling on positions as documented by other posts in this thread.

5. He's sealed his Governor records. I've had enough of that crap from Bush.

6. Calling other candidates “Bushlite.” The more I learn about his record (what there is access to) the more I think the word could aptly apply to Howard Dean.

7. The obnoxious aggressiveness of some of his supporters. It really makes me wonder if some repubs haven’t been sent out to shore up Dean (they really remind me of some of the Bush supporters. They want to bash the other candidates while refusing to hear the truth about their own candidate).

[CWebster]

41. I've read 2 of your posts today

and both of them were Dean bashes.

Most Dean supporters I've encountered are enthusiastic with renewed energy and hope and are usually thrust in the position--as in this thread--of playing defense. Most supporters of the other candidates seem bitter and resentful.

[Skwmom]

46. Not the impression I get from reading these boards

I've seen alot of outright bashing and sly under-handed bashing (trying to sound nice while bashing) on this board by Dean groupies.

I'm hardly bitter and resentful but I am extremely frustrated at the thought of having to endure 4 more years of Bush.

[blm]

42. Wow...you hit the nail on the head

for a whole slew of us here at DU who do get some of the same vibe from Dean that we get from Bush.

[Larkspur]

48. Dean couldn't take the heat on MTP?

He won the 2nd QTR fundraising drive in large part because his supporters saw Dean being treated unfairly by Russert. Bob Somerby debunks this theory of yours.

"In the first debate I thought he came across as arrogant."
That's your opinion. South Carolina was Dean's first prez debate and he did fair. You know that he has performed in other debates since then. His best, in my opinion were the AFL-CIO and the CBC debates.

"His waffling on positions as documented by other posts in this thread."
If you are referring to certain Kerry, Kucinich, Edwards, etc. supporters misinforming posts, then you need to research Dean's positions before you make that assertion as fact.

"He's sealed his Governor records. I've had enough of that crap from Bush. "
Vermont law allows governors to seal their records for 6 years. Dean asked for 20, got 10. All of Dean's pubic records are available to the public and considering he was re-elected 5 times, most Vermonters of good repute, have only good things to say about their former governor. What's in Dean's private records? Who knows. Sure, Dean probably said things in the heat of the moment during his governorship, but if he was such a bad governor, why did Vermont re-elect him 5 times?

"Calling other candidates 'Bushlite.'"
Well, if they voted to give Bush a blank check to war against Iraq, then yes they are Bush lite. Even Sen. Graham in Iowa over the weekend has called his fellow senators who voted for the Iraq War Resolution as giving Bush a blank check.

"The obnoxious aggressiveness of some of his supporters. "
Again that is your opinion. Many of us have felt abused, ignored, and neglected by the Dem leadership who lost the 2002 elections. Dean gave voice to our anger and frustrations and we appreciate it. Dean has also guided us to channel our anger and frustrations into constructive work. Many of us have decided to work on his campaign in our local areas. His campaign gives us hope that we can rejuvenate the Dem party and take our country back.

[Skwmom]

58. In response.

<He won the 2nd QTR fundraising drive in large part because his supporters saw Dean being treated unfairly by Russert. Bob Somerby debunks this theory of yours.> -----------

Not like the Repubs to think of funneling any money Dean's way to put him at the head of fundraising. Oh no - Rove and them are to stupid to think of that.

<"In the first debate I thought he came across as arrogant."
That's your opinion. South Carolina was Dean's first prez debate and he did fair. You know that he has performed in other debates since then. His best, in my opinion were the AFL-CIO and the CBC debates.>
----------
His "I'll take my voters and go home if I don't get the nomination (reminded me of Bush and his spoiled rich kid attitude - you will be banned from asking questions if you don't ask the questions I want attitude) and trying to paint Clark as his VP has done nothing to alleviate my concerns.

<"His waffling on positions as documented by other posts in this thread."
If you are referring to certain Kerry, Kucinich, Edwards, etc. supporters misinforming posts, then you need to research Dean's positions before you make that assertion as fact.>
----------
No it's not. I can actually read and do my own research.

__________
"He's sealed his Governor records. I've had enough of that crap from Bush. "
Vermont law allows governors to seal their records for 6 years. Dean asked for 20, got 10. All of Dean's pubic records are available to the public and considering he was re-elected 5 times, most Vermonters of good repute, have only good things to say about their former governor. What's in Dean's private records? Who knows. Sure, Dean probably said things in the heat of the moment during his governorship, but if he was such a bad governor, why did Vermont re-elect him 5 times?
-------------
So why wasn't 6 good enough? You don't ask for additional years and seal them in the first place if you don't have something to hide.

-----------
"Calling other candidates 'Bushlite.'"
Well, if they voted to give Bush a blank check to war against Iraq, then yes they are Bush lite. Even Sen. Graham in Iowa over the weekend has called his fellow senators who voted for the Iraq War Resolution as giving Bush a blank check..
---------
( Oh please, as much as Dean has waffled to play to potential voters - I feel confident he would have voted for the war if he was in Congress if he felt that was the best thing to do "politically.")

__________

"The obnoxious aggressiveness of some of his supporters. "
Again that is your opinion. Many of us have felt abused, ignored, and neglected by the Dem leadership who lost the 2002 elections. Dean gave voice to our anger and frustrations and we appreciate it. Dean has also guided us to channel our anger and frustrations into constructive work. Many of us have decided to work on his campaign in our local areas. His campaign gives us hope that we can rejuvenate the Dem party and take our country back.

(What many Dean groupies are doing on this board is not constructive and I don't want to "rejuvenate" the Democrat party the same way the RW nuts rejuvenated the republican party. )

[NewYorkerfromMass]

67. from your list are these substantive reasons to reject Dean

2. He couldn't take the heat on MTP. We need someone like Clinton who can take the heat. -Shows inexperience and that he is not well grounded in the issues.

4. His waffling on positions as documented by other posts in this thread.-Shows inexperience and that he is not well grounded in the issues.

5. He's sealed his Governor records. I've had enough of that crap from Bush. This is the kind of thing we have come to expect from Republicans- oh that's right...Dean USED to be a Republican.

The others weren't really substantive in comparison, although in the spirit of subjective opinion I'll offer this: I for one think Howard's voice is kind of whiny. I don't think it will win him many votes, although perhaps I am just comparing him unfavorably to Kerry, whose strong, authoritative baritone really commands attention.

[Andromeda]

70. Well, arrogant is as arrogant does...

maybe it's just the way you choose to perceive Dean. You seem to be the one who is doing the bashing here and of course you'll be the first one to whine that somebody called you on it.

For somebody who is so "sensitive" and who calls Dean supporters "obnoxious" it makes me wonder if you are a Republican shill sent here to disrupt this forum. Why don't you anti-Dean malcontents post something positive about the candidate you are supporting instead of bashing somebody you don't intend to vote for. It seems like a waste of energy, but, hey, you're just the pot calling the kettle black.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

43. Having just heard Dean live, I was impressed with his ability to

electrify the audience. While, I don't agree with everything Dean says or represents (none of the candidates fit that bill... I'm not running), There is a great deal about him that I do like. I'd have no trouble with his being the Democratic nominee.

[Skwmom]

51. From the townhall meating you described in another thread

it kind of reminded me of another politician's campaign strategy.

Let's see, his "handlers" only wanted him to answer 2 questions (I guess he doesn't want any of his followers to be able to make an informed decision). I'm probably pretty safe in assuming with the rest of his time he repeated the same old thing he's said hundreds of time.


Hmm... I guess they must of gotten ahold of Rove's playbook and decided to change it a little bit (answer 2 questions) so it wouldn't look so obvious.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

63. It's called a schedule....

He was in Normal Alabama with a crowd of 200 with only local coverage. No admission.

Cheney was here last week and it was $500 a head.

Dean's avg contribution is $87.00. Your comparing him to the Bush Administration ("Rove's handbook") is ludicrous and uncalled for.

This is a non-issue. I'm not what you would call a Dean supporter (yet), but I am A Democrat and am not going to spin my wheels dissing any of the other candidates.

[Andromeda]

74. You mention Rove's playbook...

so often I'm wondering if you have a fixation on him. I'll bet you're a Republican struggling with whether you will vote for Bush again next time or not and you find a release by venting on a Democratic forum, saying Dean supporters really support Bush. Silly stuff like that.

And maybe you should check your spelling next time you use the word "meeting."

[Uzybone]

44. That NAFTA quote

I heard it on the radio several times today. The indignance and apparent shock Dean displayed made him look very foolish when I heard him say the exact thing he claimed he never said. And even if he didnt remember which Im sure was the case, why split hairs over "support" and "strongly support". Are we to not take him seriously unless he says strongly support? Im 100% behind him if he is our guy, but Ive never gotten the "this is the messiah" thing from him that many other here seem to have.

[theboss]

47. I have a different take

Though I am with you.

I like a lot about Dean, but the student of politics in men can't believe that a darkhouse candidate with little name recognition can wrap up the nomination seven months before the first vote is counted.

Dean is the story right now and may very well end up the nominee. But I believe there are going to be at least two large changes in the current before New Hampshire. Possibly three. The first is likely to occur if Clark enters. He is going to get a ton of press and steal a lot of Dean's thunder, I think. Then there is going to be a backlash against Clark (the opportunist stuff), which will likely allow someone else to get attention, maybe Dean again, probably a fresh face though like Edwards or, who knows, Kucinich. Though Edwards is prettier. A third possibility is someone dropping out and throwing their support elsewhere.

Politics is like baseball. It's a long, long season.

[Larkspur]

49. Dean is always at his best when he is underestimated

Clark has no political campaign experience. He is more likely to screw up big time. Dean's are minor flaws that his loyal supporters overcome with their enthusiasm for him and their committment to work for him on our own dime. Can Clark generate that kind of inspiration?

[Skwmom]

55. Don't you mean misunderestimated.

Dean groupies are starting to sound more like Bush supporters more and more each day.

[theboss]

56. No offense

But when as he been underestimated?

Did he have brutal campaigns in Vermont that I am not aware of.

I keep having to say this, I am not a Clark supporter and I am not a Dean basher. In fact, Dean is sligtly ahead of Clark in the fictitious primary taking place in my head.

And Dean supporters are not at all like Bush supporters. Though they are beginning to sound like Perot supporters in their Messianic devotion.

[deutsey]

61. Actually, Dean was dismissed early in the summer by many pundits

I remember Margaret Carslon, in particular, saying that Dean's star was fading. This was probably around June, I guess. There was also a column in The Progressive that pointed out earlier this month how the mainstream media were ganging up on Dean during the summer:

http://www.progressive.org/sept03/rc0903.html

[robbedvoter]

57. Several of Clark's speeches got repeated standing ovations

(NYC, Knoxville, Aspen that I read of). He got me to jump up from my computer during the Maher show. Every time he spoke, the draft Clark numbers doubled. I'd say it's safe to assume he is an inspiring speaker. Just wait and listen.

[cally]

50. I'm very concerned

I think he makes too many mistakes in his interviews and when he is called on it he doesn't handle it well. The media is unfair, folks are out to get him, whatever :eyes: I'm worried he will make worse missteps if he gets the nomination. I think he needs to learn some campaign lessons soon.

I have kind of chosen a candidate but I am willing to switch. I want a candidate who can handle the GOP attack machine. Dean, so far, has not handled the softballs from the Dems. He has to do better if he hopes to win.

[Larkspur]

54. Gee, I thought he handled the I/P flap like an experienced statesman

As far as his NAFTA thing. That is splitting hairs. He supports labor and environmental conditions added onto NAFTA deals. He has acknowledged that NAFTA helped Vermont in trade with Canada, but it has not helped the Midwest.

[robbedvoter]

59. I agree. Some he handles well, some not. Mixed reviews on MTP

and debates. Gore was flawless and is to this day dodged ny the "invented the internet" thingy.

[dean4america]

71. i respect your points...

but just as you are becoming more uneasy with the prospect of Dean, i'm becoming more ecstatic. his campaign is great to be a part of at the grassroots level, and it is making a difference--however small--in my community.

i'm not yet ready to jump on the clark bandwagon yet (in fact, make that, WON'T, unless he is the nominee), but his record on the war is sure better than gep's and john's

[Ani Yun Wiya]

72. Perhaps...

The uneasy feeling you have has something to do with the number of new "democrats" who used to be republicans (recent converts or maybe lifelong fence sitters) who now vehemently support Dean's candidacy.

A fair number of the Clark supporters seem to have this trait as well.

Do these people hang out in the hopes of skewing the primaries to a right leaning agenda for the Democratic Party?

[Andromeda]

73. The winner will get "Gored"...

no matter who he/she is. The Republicans with the aid of the media will be waiting to pounce on the Democrat who is running against dim son. If there is something that will put him/her in a bad light, they will use it. They will go back into the past to find all the skeletons rattling around in the closet and they will hang it out for all to see.

So, support the person of your choice---I hope it is Dean---but if it's not that's okay too. Just get involved and read everything you can get your hands on. I support Dean now, but that's subject to change if something major happens to make me change my mind. Don't think I will though.

Dean has the kind of edge I like in a candidate and he's not afraid to speak his mind. He's smart and he's a doctor. I like that too. The other candidates are beginning to sound like Dean now, more outspoken, and I think that's because Dean was the first one who came out swinging, with the exception of Kucinich and Graham. Dean tapped into the anger of the voters---the kind of smoldering anger everybody was told to "get over." All the emotions started boiling over and it gave Dean energy. The anger, repressed emotions and the depression most people felt erupted like a volcano. It made people feel like he understood. He REALLY understood.

You might change your mind a dozen times so don't rush it. Just get involved in the process, listen and learn all you can.