Nader, Nader, Nader, Nader, Nader!

[bitchkitty]

Every day there are threads about Nader. Did Nader steal the election? Is Nader up to his old tricks? Nader, Nader, Nader!

My question is, why the F*CK can't you just let it go? It's ridiculous and counter productive. Sorry you don't like that he's running, or planning to run, but this is America, and the garbage collector can run if he wants to.

And yes, I know this thread is about Nader. See? It sucks everyone in.

I would just like to see ONE morning when I log in, no Nader threads in GD.

Edited for grammar. Sorry.

[KamaAina]

1. Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean!

Only the names change...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Well

at least Dean is a Democrat and has pledged to support the eventual nominee..

[edward]

5. Get Nader to apologize for making Al Gore lose the election.

You're chums with him right?

[bitchkitty]

7. Goddamnit -

Get your facts straight. Where were you during Selection 2000? Gore did not lose, and Nader did not STEAL votes.

I don't like Ralph Nader. I don't trust him. But I would defend his right to run for President with my life.

[edward]

9. Sorry, you are right.

Al Gore is in the White House. My bad.

[bitchkitty]

15. Disingenous crap.

Come back when you're willing to address the facts. Nader did not steal the election.

[edward]

16. Didn't say he stole anything.

When you win an election, you are placed in office. Gore did not win the election. Or do you mean something else by "fact," like "fantasy?"

[bitchkitty]

17. As I thought -

you were asleep during that period. Either that or you're being deliberately obtuse.

[edward]

21. Yes, I was asleep.

You are hilarious. I'm writing these down.

[bitchkitty]

23. You don't know me,

and I've never noticed any posts from you, but I wonder - do you ever say anything that's relevant or that has meaning? Or are you all not-terribly-clever one-liners?

[edward]

25. Look, you said Al Gore won the election.

He did not. Gore won the popular vote, lost the electoral in Florida which put Bush in office. You're the one putting out the insults.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bitchkitty]

31. If you want to talk ignorance,

then tell me, who got the most votes in Florida, according to the National Opinion Research Center?

My point is that Gore won the election. The Supreme Court jumped in and saved chimpie's ass. He did not win. I'll dig out my old favorite analogy for you:

If you and I are playing poker, and I cheat and take all your money, and send you home broke, is that winning? Or is it cheating?

[edward]

32. The law of the land is the Supreme Court, not opinion polls.

The Supreme Court decides what the law is. When they intervened on the Florida Supreme Court, that was the final say. Bush had more votes in Florida, and won the state which gave him the electoral votes to win the election.
You owe me an apology. I stated the facts. Where is the igorance?

[bitchkitty]

33. An apology for what?

It's not my fault that you won't address the facts. NORC is not an opinion poll. As I thought, you don't know what you're talking about.

[edward]

35. Boring.

Feel like your civics teacher. I give you facts about the Supreme Court decision, you give back insults. Not wasting my time.
Like I said, here at DU the only people who say things like "you don't know what you're talking about" are people who have no facts to make their argument.
Refute anything I said about the actual court case. You haven't.
Just give out insults.

[bitchkitty]

36. An easy solution

don't post stupid statements.

And I repeat, you don't know what you're talking about. It sounds as if you got all your information about the Selection from cable news.

[edward]

45. You haven't refuted one thing I said.

Repeating insults is all you have done. You wanted facts, I gave you facts. Then what? You didn't refute one thing. Not one.

[bitchkitty]

49. I think I refuted

you saying Bush won. He didn't win, he cheated and stole an election. Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. That it's just fine and dandy to cheat and steal? Um, okay.

[edward]

51. How did you refute the statement that Bush won?

Bush officially had more votes in Florida than Al Gore. That state gave him electoral votes to win the election. What did you refute?

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edward]

61. More insults.

No argument. No analysis of facts. Just insults.
Just stick to the facts. Then you won't feel the need to hurl insults. And acting self-righteous only works with children pleading to their parents.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. He Shouldn't Apologize To Gore

I'd be satisfied if he apologized to the dead and maimed Iraqis...

[edward]

11. I'd be satisfied if he lent me $50.

[monkeyboy]

10. It might be easier to get you and others like you...

...to stop kicking and screaming, get up off the floor, wipe your little eyes, and do something productive. But probably not.

[NightTrain]

18. Get Gore to apologize to *us* for being such a pussy and...

...conceding the election to Bush without a fight.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. He Took It All The Way To The Supreme Court And Was Rebuffed

What did you want him to do?

Start a militia....

[DEMActivist]

2. You know....

if HALF the Nader time was spent on the Black Box Voting issue on DU, we might really make a difference.

It's truly a shame how much time is wasted on the past while completely forgetting about the future.

Nader won't matter if they get away with these Fraud Machines.

[bitchkitty]

4. Thank you!

My thoughts exactly. Too, the postponement of the CA recall is HUGE news, and you don't see a dozen threads about that.

[bearfartinthewoods]

19. and to that end...the future...you start another nader thread?????

: shrug :

[bitchkitty]

24. As I said,

yes, I know this is a Nader thread. More specifically, it's a thread about why some Democrats can't let go of this. It's counter-productive. It solves nothing. It no doubt makes Karl Rover deliriously happy.

[Old and In the Way]

42. Someday, I'm gonna start a Nader thread.....

I'm pretty sure I could break my current 24 post personal record...

[Ardee]

12. Amen, demactivist, amen

obsessiveness is usually a symptom of some other disorder, in the case of Nader haters it is simply the inability to criticize the failings of their own political party thus the need for a scapegoat.

Nader polled 2+%, 11% of registered democrats voted for Bush and Gore freaking won the damn election in the first place!

[Capn Sunshine]

22. FUCKIN' A

right on DEMActivist.

Wait until Clark Vs Dean gets going. I hate this crap.
If every member of DU wrote just one letter to everyone on their mail list, imagine what might shake loose.

It's funny how the BBV story gets longer and longer legs; even though they try out like we're all X filesy to the uninitiated.....

[Old and In the Way]

37. True, but isn't just as important to promote coalition politics?

Sure, anybody can run...Ralph, your garbage collector, even me. But isn't this exactly what the Republican's want? They want us to fracture into a thousand little factions...hell, they'll have plenty of money to help fund your campaign, I'm sure.

OK, so no one knew how bad things would be with this Misleader running the show....but we now know and we also know that this will be the election that defines America for maybe generations to come...the stakes can't be more real.

So those that still want to entertain "3rd way" alternatives are either totally naive or RNC operatives. Certain DU posters, notwithstanding, of course :-)

[ComerPerro]

6. Clark, Clark, Clark, Clark, Clark

I don't have a point. I just didn't want to be left out.

And it would take to long to have written "Kucinich" five times!

[stevedeshazer]

13. But, he's evil!

It's all his fault!

Greens are the enemy!

One can hope.

Taking bets on who shows up in this thread now....

[demnan]

14. I love your screen name

I have a little bitch kitty. She is adorable but just has a mean streak and starts swatting at me when she is upset. I love her anyway.

Hey, Nader is so far a non-issue this time.

[bitchkitty]

20. Thanks -

I'm named after a cat too. He was the ultimate Siamese, beautiful and mean as a snake.

Nader would be a non-issue, but for idiots who can't let go.

[demnan]

29. hey my Siamese is the sweet one unless he's jealous

he's sitting on my mouse pad right now. Siamese are the ultimate control freaks.

My Abby mix is the bitty cat!

[Lefty48197]

28. 95,000 Nader voters in Florida can't be wrong

The Greens did more to put Shrubyah in the WH than Carl Rove or Karen Hughes ever did.

[bitchkitty]

34. Well, then -

let's lobby real hard for a new law, that the Greens can't run! Whaddya think? Is that Democracy at its finest or what?

</sarcasm>

[Terwilliger]

38. as annoying as I must appear to some of the more *I&Y#!*k DUers...

I have not started these threads. I don't stir the pot on my own. When somebody else does, I will, because I wont put up with the freeperish attitude toward Nader.

I do not start Nader threads.

When I'm an arrogant asshole, I speak for myself.

I don't worship Nader (I'm not like some of the more symbol-driven folks), but I also don't subscribe to the unbelievable hatred directed towards him. It's fucking inexcusable.

[bitchkitty]

41. It's not that they are Nader threads -

it's that there are always a dozen threads that are titled differently, but they all say the same things. Over and over and over and over, and it's really freaking getting to me.

[Old and In the Way]

48. You wouldn't be talking about me would you, Terwillinger?

I don't start them either, but I have opinions just like you do and finally, some common ground:

"When I'm an arrogant asshole, I speak for myself."

I hope you don't think I hate Nader....I save that for Bush. I liked Ralph a lot more as a consumer crusader, actually. I do feel sorry for people who bought his baloney in 2000, though. Really, he never could have been elected..it was a supersized ego that made him do it.

[quaker bill]

60. Now we agree

If Nader hadn't run, Al Gore could have gotten by with weak campaign he ran.

Had Al Gore shown half the strength in 2000 that he has in 2003 he would have won clearly, Nader notwithstanding.

The venom directed toward Ralph Nader is misplaced.

Democrats need to own (accept responsibility for) their own failures.

I worked for Gore and voted for him. This race should never have been close.

I personally hold the risk-adverse DLC responsible. Leaders take risks. The DLC took none.

[Terwilliger]

65. well, bill, other than voting for Gore

I agree with you 100%

That last point about me voting Nader...I'm hard pressed to vote against my conscience. I was in Gore's camp not one month before the election. It was nothing Nader said.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. I generally don't like Nader threads but he is pulling the same

"no difference" shit again in my state as we battle a recall.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. A Leopard Can't Change His Spots

nt

[gully]

43. BUSH, BUSH, BUSH, BUSH

Why the hell don't you all just get over it!? Bush is our commander and chief and should be respected! I sure wish all the Bush bashing would just stop! :P

I'll say it again, anyone running against the Dems is a political opponent. Ralph Nader is fair Game! If he doesn't run, he's a non issue.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Seven Posts Away From 1,000

I couldn't wait to get over that hump...

[gully]

46. Oh, no! It's offical, I'm addicted!

eek!

[bitchkitty]

47. Crucial difference -

what laws has Nader violated? Which voters were taken off the rolls because Nader hired Choicepoint to come up with a "felons" list? Did Nader run crying to Poppy's friends on the Supreme Court? Did Nader stop the count?

[gully]

50. Different icing, same cake.

This site is for Democrats and progressives who want to work with 'Democrats' on issues in common.

Mr Nader is not interested in working with Democrats as most obviously demonstrated.

Here are some Greens that are interested in 'progressive issues' that we have in common.

http://www.repentantnadervoter.com

Do you think Nader lost any sleep over basing Gore and/or Democrats? Why the double standard?

This Nader is a progressive so he's untouchable crap is just that ... 'crap.'

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. BitchKitty's Point That Arguing About Ralphie Is A Distraction Is

Well Taken....

That being said if Ralphie runs again he will get a Buchanan like <1% of the vote....


The only scenario where I see Ralphie getting > 1% of the vote is if * is heading for a landslide and Democratic votes "don't count" for much...

What a sad prospect...

[Q]

54. Someone should set this 'edwards' poster straight:

...The Supreme Court doesn't have the legal authority to interfere with elections. Read the friggin Constitution and 'get a clue'.

[bitchkitty]

59. I tried, baby -

it's hopeless.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. I Though Marbury V Madison

established judicial review and the Supreme Court reviewed the ruling of a lower court...

I have seen the decision praised and criticized by legal scholars but I haven't seen any scholars say they didn't have the right to review the holding of the Florida Supreme Court.

If you have a link to a legal scholar who argues the contrary position could you provide a link...


on edit- research Baker v Carr where the Court proscribed gerrymandering and mandated one man one vote for another example of the Supreme Court getting involved in the electoral process...

[Q]

69. The SC can't legally override a state SC interpreting...

...it's own Constitution and state election laws. The SC had no authority to stop a legal/required recount.

- But the SC stopping the (legal) recount was just one part of an orchestrated plan to put Bush* in the WH...even if Gore won. They were ready to argue that the electoral college was 'antiquated' and against the will of the people had they won the popular vote and lost the EC. The GOP-controlled florida legislature threatened to give all the state's votes to Bush*...even if Gore won. Harris told certain Florida districts that they didn't have to do a recount at all. Harris allowed GOP/Bush operatives unsupervised access to the election office to 'fix' ballots...and who knows what else. Thousands of (mostly black and Dem) voters were purged from the voter rolls under the direction of Harris and Jeb 'the crow' Bush. Jeb Bush made nearly a hundred calls to the Bush* campaign after promising to recuse himself.

- There is no gray area here...the SC absolutely didn't have the authority to stop the recount. All the excuses and rationalizations in the world won't make it right.

- And here we have so-called Democrats ignoring all the above (and more) and directing their ire at Nader instead of those who fucked over Democracy and the American people. How about expending at least SOME of this energy in going after those directly responsible?

[bitchkitty]

76. DId you read

None Dare Call It Treason by Bugliosi (sic)?

[gully]

66. Huh, Whos the Edwards poster? n/t

[bitchkitty]

62. Okay, but that's beside the point -

what do these threads accomplish? I wish Nader would go away, disappear, I don't like the S.O.B. I don't think that hashing it out, over and over again, accomplishes anything at all.

If one tenth of the energy that goes into bashing Nader went into getting people to vote, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[gully]

67. Now there's an excellent point. However...

what do you think if Dem bashing?

It baffles me that it goes unchecked while Nader bashing is of great concern?

[bitchkitty]

70. I don't know -

this is primary season, and everyone has their favorite. I think that when the primaries are over, most of us will get behind the nominee. It's not out of line to talk about Democratic candidates in DemocraticUnderground. It's not even out of line to bash Nader, but Jeez Louise! How many threads in GD with "Nader" in the title?

[gully]

73. I'll give you that one...

The issue I have is with statements that 'blanket' bash Democrats.

Democrats are _________. Or you people are______. Happens here all the time. If were gonna 'check' Nader bashing, I think we should check Dem bashing, and that includes claiming were like 'Republicans' and using Nader talking points to 'trash' us on OUR turf. This is OUR place, and I know 'they' are welcome. But, show me some respect in my house, KWIM?

Thoughts?

[bitchkitty]

75. Well, it is important

for people to be able to express themselves and offer different points of view. I agree that it can be way out of line, but that's what happens when you get a lot of people into one big tent. The Nader threads are different in that he is not a Democrat, and has indeed made it clear that he hates the Democrats, and to repay that hatred we spend way too much time obsessing over him. In my opinion he doesn't deserve the attention, and any attention at all only benefits him.

As far as the general bashing and ad hominem attacks, a lot of it is people who don't mind their manners, or who just get carried away in the heat of the moment. (I include myself in this assessment)

There are so many different points of view in this place, I'm glad there's such diversity in the Democratic Party. I love all the Democratic candidates, even if I have major reservations with a couple of them. I'll support anyone but Bush, I'd support Idi Amin if he could beat Bush (well not really but you get my drift)

[Old and In the Way]

72. That's funny.....

You start the thread and then ask what these threads accomplish....

[bitchkitty]

74. I know it seems that way -

but I meant this thread to be about the volume of Nader threads when there are so many other far more important issues to contemplate.

[GreenInNC]

52. Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha

Did Nader "steal" the election? No! Did he influence the election? You are damn skippy he did and I make no apologies for it. As much as the Democrats and Republicans would like us to think that they are pre-ordained as the only parties, we Greens are not going away.

[bitchkitty]

55. Actually, you and I part

ways on that point. I think Nader influenced the Greens, all right, and set that party back a ways. My point is that he had the right to run, and I'm happy that I still live in a country where if I chose to, I could run for President. My point is that all these threads that analyze the situation and slam the Greens (and vice versa) are counter productive in the extreme.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. The Republicans Don't Want You Go To Go Away

The mere mention of Ralph Nader gives Karl Rove major wood....

[Old and In the Way]

58. So was Bush the consolation prize?

[gully]

68. You know what...

I respect your honesty. Thanks! :thumbsup:

And, just to let you know, the Dems aren't going anywhere either ;)

[buddhamama]

64. i've been told GD is bad for my hair

lather rinse repeat lather rinse repeat

i think it's causing split ends.

[really-looney]

71. Bush can run, Nader can run

But they can also expect to get the shit kicked out of them at DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND